This used to be problematic, but was addressed with a change the last time the rules were updated. The definition of mark says "...an object attached accidentally to a mark is not part of it", meaning that a chase boat intentionally tied up to the signal boat is part of the mark. The definition used to say "...attached temporarily or accidentally...", which led to the problem you're concerned about.

Note that this wording of the definition allows race committee to use a "barging buoy" without worrying about how to write the sailing instruction. A "barging buoy" is an object that RC attaches to the stern of the committee boat to keep boats a little farther away. This reduces the chance of collision with (and damage to) the committee boat -- which helps reassure signal boat owners.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Well you have never seen Randy Smyth back up a boat into position.

Chris Christensen used to sneak in around the bow of the signal vessel and sail stern-first behind the line. Chris was pretty sick in heavy pressure by doing this and pulling the trigger while the creepers were trying to dig out of the hole.

Unless one had worked on their approach angle and pulled the trigger without fear, then Chris would be gone!!!

Randy is so smooth he can gain an open start, in clear air, with no chance of rules entanglement. He is always on point with his timing and can really jump out with YO!, his F 25 C.

Here is a diagram of a classic barging situation. The boats are approaching the mark (which is a signal boat) to start.



Rules 18 and 19 do not apply between Blue and Yellow. Yellow is not entitled to room at the mark. Yellow is obligated to keep clear of Blue by rule 11.

Blue is not changing course in this diagram, so rule 16.1 does not apply to her. There's no room for Yellow between Blue and the mark, so she has to turn away.

And here's a scenario where the leeward boat "shuts the door" in time.



At positions 2 and 3, Blue changes course and is obligated by RRS 16.1 to give Yellow room to keep clear. Yellow responds promptly, meeting her obligation to keep clear of Blue, but has to turn away to miss the mark.

Here I've drawn Blue shutting the door on Yellow in time, but Yellow goes below the mark anyway.



Yellow breaks RRS 11. Blue takes avoiding action as required by RRS 14 and protests. Blue should win this protest.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Here's a diagram where the leeward boat does not "close the door" on the windward boat.



In this scenario, Blue does not act to "close the door" on Yellow. She holds her course and Yellow takes advantage of the room given. Neither boat breaks a rule. Blue should lose this protest.

And, here's a drawing that shows the leeward boat "closing the door" too late.



When Blue changes course, she does not give Yellow room to keep clear. Blue breaks RRS 16.1. Yellow breaks RRS 31 (Touching a Mark) but is exonerated under RRS 64.1(a). Yellow should win this protest.

I hope that helps,
Eric

This rule interpretation seems to be, If I'm on starboard and I have my bow tucked behind the start boat and he is backing from in front of the start boat with water to go where ever he wants he must stay clear of me as does the rest of the fleet

That all helps a ton Eric! I still want to find the case I'm thinking of, it might be a case where L actually pushed W into the boat.

Didn't they do a weird start mark like that at Tradewinds or one of those winter races a year or so ago?

Eric beat me to the answer about stuff tied to a mark. What I want to know is how to write the SIs such that a barging buoy is NOT part of the boat, which most of us are used to. As the rule is written, if you hit a barging buoy, you hit the starting boat, and because that is part of the definitions, it can't be changed by the SIs.

I brought this up with US Sailing during the change, and the person I asked said not to worry, the intent wasn't to lock it down so tightly. I have yet to see SIs that change it (at least, not properly).

I asked about it again at the meeting again in FL last year, and was advised that it was their intent to lock it down, and they didn't think anyone would mind, but encouraged me to submit a request to change the rule.

The problem was that the way the old rule was written, the issue was the same but in reverse. SIs couldn't make the bouy part of the boat (legally), which is desired with really big, expensive and slowly maneuvering boats.

For me, the goal is to make sure the signal boat doesn't get hit, not the buoy. Our cats are maneuverable enough to usually stay away from the signal boat with a gentle reminder of a buoy out there. Those buoys tend to move around an awful lot, and I don't think it's especially fair to penalize a small boat for contacting the buoy.

Besides, even though I'm usually not looking behind me nearly as much as Eric gives me credit for (too much else to focus on at the actual line), I did see at least one boat hit my barging buoy on Sunday. Life is way too short to go to the room over that, even though I doubt anyone else could have seen it. He should have been protested for barging anyway...

Mike

There are two rules that bear on this situation. RRS 22.3 states "a boat moving astern through the water by backing a sail shall keep clear of one that is not". If the boat clear ahead is "backing a sail", then she must keep clear. If she is drifting backwards without backing a sail, then the other boat must keep clear (RRS 12).

Second, a boat's "course" is the direction she is pointing or moving. When the boat ahead stops moving forward and starts moving backward (without backing a sail), she is changing course and must give the boat astern room to keep clear (per RRS 16.1). That boat must react to the ahead boat's course change promptly and in a seamanlike way to keep clear.

As you note, SI's may not change the definitions. The barging buoy is part of the mark. You really don't want to change that. If you could, then there's an argument that the buoy is an obstruction and that inside boats are entitled to room. Then the buoy, which is intended to reduce barging, actually promotes it.

If you really, really want to allow boats to touch the barging buoy (which I still don't recommend), I suggest the SI's simply change the penalty (to no penalty).

I hope that helps,
Eric

BRILLIANT!!!

Come out with me some time, Eric. With the waves and current we see, you'll be stunned how much that mark moves. For small boats, especially Optis, the line holding the buoy can be as long as the racing boats. The buoys are often so small that it would be tough to know if you (or another boat) actually hit it.

Not fair, and certainly not my goal with small boats.


Mike

I missed the "backing a sail" part and thought that the rules had been modified to take away the opportunity to back down on the starting line. With a decent breeze, I can move backwards at a pretty good sustainable speed without physically backing a sail. While the timing and handling would be tricky (but could be learned), is this to say that I could back down on the start line right by the committee boat (without backing a sail) and expect everyone to have to avoid me?

You might want to experiment with other tying attachments that move less, such as a towing bridle; or stiffening up the line(s) with flexible pipe; or even hanging the buoy from a pole. With Optis, you could just tie hippity-hops to the signal boat hull -- after all, how much separation do they really need?

To the best of my knowledge, there is no single starting tactic that always wins. For every attack, there is some defense. If, for example, you were moving straight backwards next to the committee boat, and I were right behind you, I could (assuming I had the boathandling skills) slip sideways enough to keep clear of you (provided other boats weren't blocking that move), but not enough to give you room to turn down to close-hauled for the starting signal. In other words, you'd have no gap to leeward. Then I'd be able to accelerate first and you'd be left in my dirty air.

Pretty much whatever the starting habits of the fleet, the crew that maneuvers their boat the best, and times their attack the best, will win the start -- and that's exactly how it should be.

Regards,
Eric

While not "barging" per say, this video shows a boat taking a transit on the layline to the committee boat, "closing the door" well behind the line, and forcing a windward boat to peel off at the start.



I hope that helps,
Eric

Aaaaahhhhh everything is right with the world again. Feeling much better now.

Starting is a skill and should always be rewarded.

I'm only a bush sailor so good luck backing up on me I would just sit there and not let the other boat back up over the start line then piss myself laughing as I did my turn after the start while the backup genius goes around the end buoy to start again

Are the luxury of sailing a 400lb boat called Ram Raider.

Contact is one thing... I've seen boats practically make love to the barging buoy.

Sort of like being a "little" pregnant.

Maybe not using such a long line on the barging buoy would keep it from such wild swings? Or attach the buoy to something flexible, like a fiberglass batten, boathook, or antenna attached horizontally from the stern quarter of the start boat?

While the timing and handling would be tricky (but could be learned), is this to say that I could back down on the start line right by the committee boat (without backing a sail) and expect everyone to have to avoid me?



This should fix that whole backing down the start line (and the dip start)