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#283002 - 07/04/16 04:41 AM F18 Overall weight, Change or Not  
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ratherbsailing Offline
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ratherbsailing  Offline
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Adelaide South Australia
I know this has been brought up. I also understand the argument "boats become out of date"

I would like a change,

When the boat were designed it was based on the what could be produced by everyone at the time Things have moved on. You can produce the same thing a lot stronger and lighter than you could 10 years a go. We are up to Gen 3 boats. All the Gen1 and gen 2 boasts could be considered "Out of date"

In my opinion only Gen 4 should be 135kg. It would increase performance and bring the boats inline with other classes that are going as light as possible. A classes are super light and super strong. It can be done. I feel its time for change. Look forward to the next 10 years.

A couple of the manufactures I have spoken with have said they are ready to go. They just need the decision to be made.

Its just my opinion. You are allowed to disagree.



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#283003 - 07/05/16 03:24 AM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: ratherbsailing]  
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Most new boats are overweight not under. Ask the manufactures how much more it will cost to build the f18 lighter. One of the big selling point of F18 is its affordability. the min weight will never change.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
#283004 - 07/05/16 07:28 AM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: ratherbsailing]  
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David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by ratherbsailing
I know this has been brought up. I also understand the argument "boats become out of date"

I would like a change,

When the boat were designed it was based on the what could be produced by everyone at the time Things have moved on. You can produce the same thing a lot stronger and lighter than you could 10 years a go. We are up to Gen 3 boats. All the Gen1 and gen 2 boasts could be considered "Out of date"

In my opinion only Gen 4 should be 135kg. It would increase performance and bring the boats inline with other classes that are going as light as possible. A classes are super light and super strong. It can be done. I feel its time for change. Look forward to the next 10 years.

A couple of the manufactures I have spoken with have said they are ready to go. They just need the decision to be made.

Its just my opinion. You are allowed to disagree.


Please identify yourself.

Of course the manufactures would love to replace the fleet with new boats it would be a great pay day.

Why are we interested in competing with boat weights of other classes we would still have to apply a formula for the results?

I'm really not interested in dumping my current boat to buy a more expensive (likely) boat.

How is the F18ht doing?

I question your motives sir and I doubt you have the best interest of the class in mind.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#283168 - 07/25/16 09:13 AM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: ratherbsailing]  
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samc99us Offline
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I see this from many angles, I agree lighter weight may be possible but it isn't in the best interest of the class and really isn't the elephant in the room...

First, not all new boats are overweight, many are under. Many are also underbuilt. Folks won't speak publicly about their issues but both of the major builders have been having QC issues on the hulls since switching to a lower cost manufacturing facility some years ago. This issue is much more prolific and high profile on the N17 and is being addressed there, but I doubt it will change on the F18, certainly not until consumers have a choice and vote with their wallet to go elsewhere. Anyway, point is I don't think the big builders can build a lighter F18 and have them last, considering the current boats aren't built to an amazing, last 10 year standard as is. I would rather see the weight stay the same and the owners push for a higher quality build!! I would love to see Marstrom building a F18 for example, even if it cost $5k more out of the box I would buy one for the quality no questions asked.

Now the elephant in the room: foiling. Other classes are pushing for lower weights and stiffer platforms because they want to foil, or are foiling. I don't think the F18 needs foils to remain relevant right now, but certainly in a few years time it may. To me, the Gen4 F18 is a well built, stiff version of the F18 with curved foils and t-foil rudders, at the same weight as the existing F18 (possibly allowing retrofits, but not likely given the loads involved). This may require carbon in the hulls, and that really opens a new can of worms and none of this drives cost down, rather up. How the class handles this is a big unknown, but something to be thinking about for ~2018-2020. It would, in many ways, make the class relevant again from a design space, but how to do so without disrupting the existing fleets and existing events is key, these are waters not to be treaded on lightly.

My other thought is leave the boat unchanged but really work to reduce costs so more sailors can participate, this is more important to me than lighter weight or a slightly faster semi-foiling ride.

Last edited by samc99us; 07/25/16 09:16 AM.

F18 Infusion
#283202 - 08/03/16 12:48 PM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: ratherbsailing]  
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Just Sail Offline
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Just Sail  Offline
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I am quite confused.
1. I don't understand why we would want to change the weight of the F18. Doing so would make it the same as other classes.
2 Same for foiling.

Its like putting flavor in your coffee if you don't like the taste of coffee drink something else, its ok. If you need to change the F18 so you can enjoy it sail something else,its ok.


Last edited by Just Sail; 08/03/16 12:57 PM.
#283219 - 08/05/16 11:41 AM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: ratherbsailing]  
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samc99us Offline
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The issue is keeping the class relevant. Foiling is here, like it or not, sticking your head in the sand isn't going to help, see A-class.

The reality is F18 is not a development class, but C boards and T-foil rudders have been around for quite some time now. Some evaluation of these speed enhancements to keep the F18 relevant into the next decade is likely warranted, as what made the F18 great in the past is the development of new hulls shapes around the same rig. That has mostly stagnated (nothing really new since 2012). Some consideration of limited foiling may be worthwhile, or at the very least, community outreach to hear what the class would like to do.


F18 Infusion
#283230 - 08/07/16 03:33 PM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: ratherbsailing]  
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bacho Offline
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The whole A-class is not interested in foiling. Many of us who are stuck in venues without reliable seabreeze have limited interest in a foiler A-class. Foiling still has many issues in practicality.

Though I would like a lighter F18, I think the class SHOULD NOT change.

#283245 - 08/10/16 12:00 PM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: ratherbsailing]  
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Perhaps not, but it has been shown that the foilers are just as fast as the floaters in floating A-cat mode. This isn't internet speculation, I was there when Bailey White rounded the top mark at 2015 A-cat midwinters in pole position with a JZ board Exploder in total float mode, maybe blowing 5kts, maybe-I rounded a few boats back on a C-board EVO II. I don't think flying foil setups make sense in those conditions (i.e not worth the complexity or cost etc.), so for lake sailing I totally get having a straight board or a C-board boat, but the beauty of the new A's is the trunks will take that. If you retool a F18 or F16, it makes little sense to build them with a fixed straight board trunk, rather the universal trunk makes a lot of sense.

As for the class not changing, I'm in the middle on this, the boat is great as is, but so was the N20, and guess what, no one is racing those in a competitive fleet outside of San Diego and West River. They did nothing and the fleet died. I don't want to see that happen to the F18.


F18 Infusion
#283246 - 08/10/16 12:24 PM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: samc99us]  
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David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us


As for the class not changing, I'm in the middle on this, the boat is great as is, but so was the N20, and guess what, no one is racing those in a competitive fleet outside of San Diego and West River. They did nothing and the fleet died. I don't want to see that happen to the F18.


Incorrect, the N20 class opened up the sailplan and the class died anyway. P19 did the same thing, completely different sail plan and still died. The H20 took out that P19 and F18 took out the N20. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that obsoleting the fleet and making it a **** ton more expensive is good for the class. It's not all rainbows and unicorn's in the A-Cat fleet, foilers destroy floaters in anything over 5 knots, the floater & foiler days of sailing together are numbered, in my opinion. It might also be worth noting the A-cat fleet is very gray and foilers can be a bit unkind to "senior" sailors. It will be interesting to see where the A-cat fleet is 5-10 years from now.

It's also worth noting that the most successful multihull fleet on the planet is the Hobie 16 fleet!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#283267 - 08/12/16 05:46 AM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: samc99us]  
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bacho Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
Perhaps not, but it has been shown that the foilers are just as fast as the floaters in floating A-cat mode. This isn't internet speculation, I was there when Bailey White rounded the top mark at 2015 A-cat midwinters in pole position with a JZ board Exploder in total float mode, maybe blowing 5kts, maybe-I rounded a few boats back on a C-board EVO II. I don't think flying foil setups make sense in those conditions (i.e not worth the complexity or cost etc.), so for lake sailing I totally get having a straight board or a C-board boat, but the beauty of the new A's is the trunks will take that. If you retool a F18 or F16, it makes little sense to build them with a fixed straight board trunk, rather the universal trunk makes a lot of sense.

As for the class not changing, I'm in the middle on this, the boat is great as is, but so was the N20, and guess what, no one is racing those in a competitive fleet outside of San Diego and West River. They did nothing and the fleet died. I don't want to see that happen to the F18.



Baileys boat is stinking fast upwind, and he is quite fast on it. He will do well despite his boats limitations. The A-class has rather sugar coated its problems with the foiling/floater issue. I have some friends who now refuse to travel to A-cat races as they are not interested in foiling for a number of reasons, and do not wish to compete against a foiler.

I have failed to hear any word about the flying phantom or the foiling N20 really taking off. I think the F18 class going lighter and foiling would REALLY piss off those of us who currently own boats but are no where near buying a new one. I would say F-it and leave the class.

The F18 has felt pretty dead in the USA lately to me. If I was to point to a reason, it would be a lack of any sort of promotion by the class. The class did a great job on promoting the NAs in Texas, since then there has been a lack of any sort of buzz about the NAs. I understand it takes motivated work from talented volunteers to do this.

#283292 - 08/16/16 02:07 PM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: David Ingram]  
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waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
The H20 took out that P19 and F18 took out the N20. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that obsoleting the fleet and making it a **** ton more expensive is good for the class.

It's also worth noting that the most successful multihull fleet on the planet is the Hobie 16 fleet!


Very good points as usual, Ding. Perhaps instructive would be to delve into WHY the H20 killed the P19 and the F18 killed the N20.

Were either of the new platforms (H20 / F18) technological leaps forward from their bretheren (P19 / N20)? Or was it something more sublime (class governance, promotion, ease to sail/compete, cost-effective, platform/design rules, etc)?

Does the F18 class seek to grow by sniping sailors from other classes? Is higher-tech the only way to do that? If so, why the heck do Finns, Sabots, and 470s still exist? Shouldn't they have died after the introduction of 49-ers, skiffs, and that foiling A-scow thingie?

Certainly the H-16 class should have died off long ago if technology was the only thing people were interested in.. And yet they maintain a strong class... so it's something different.

Or is it because there is some sort of program or goal to be achieved by participating in a particular class? Like youth programs designed to develop collegiate sailors (Opti, 420, 420c)?

Is there an international push to move toward foiling boats at levels other than the elites? Are weekend warriors (possibly 85-95% of any fleet) ready and willing to pony up the clams to play in a high-tech fleet? The Moths (or maybe foiling kiteboards) seem to be the most developed and cost-effective way to go high-tech. Why didn't everyone just jump on those? What keeps you sailing two (or three) hulls?

Sincerely,

Card-carrying dead boat society member who sails PHRF now (ouch). But I still sail (and pony up regatta fees and bar tabs), so there's that...


Jay

#283306 - 08/18/16 08:02 AM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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Or skip all that blah, blah, blah...

What would you view as the "core group" of sailors in the F18 fleet?

What do you feel they wish to see? Technology/Development changes? Cost? Schedule?


Jay

#283308 - 08/18/16 10:18 AM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: ratherbsailing]  
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Philippe Offline
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Another way of putting the question is: In a relatively near future a foiling 18 foot catamaran will definitely appear, do we want this boat to be part of the F18 family or not?
Personally, I think that at some point I will want to sail such a boat (when a reliable and affordable solution exist).
If the majority of F18 sailors think the same it makes sense to think of an upgrade path for F18 owners, if not, it is best to keep the F18 as is. Another 18 foot catamaran class will appear and that is perfectly OK too.

Philippe

Last edited by Philippe; 08/18/16 10:18 AM.
#283311 - 08/18/16 02:28 PM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: David Ingram]  
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samc99us Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by samc99us


As for the class not changing, I'm in the middle on this, the boat is great as is, but so was the N20, and guess what, no one is racing those in a competitive fleet outside of San Diego and West River. They did nothing and the fleet died. I don't want to see that happen to the F18.


Incorrect, the N20 class opened up the sailplan and the class died anyway. P19 did the same thing, completely different sail plan and still died. The H20 took out that P19 and F18 took out the N20. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that obsoleting the fleet and making it a **** ton more expensive is good for the class. It's not all rainbows and unicorn's in the A-Cat fleet, foilers destroy floaters in anything over 5 knots, the floater & foiler days of sailing together are numbered, in my opinion. It might also be worth noting the A-cat fleet is very gray and foilers can be a bit unkind to "senior" sailors. It will be interesting to see where the A-cat fleet is 5-10 years from now.

It's also worth noting that the most successful multihull fleet on the planet is the Hobie 16 fleet!


Incorrect on the N20 issue Dave. The fleet voted not to open up the sail plan at Spring Fever in 2010, with the Nacra appointed class president present (so a real vote), then half the fleet left and showed up with F18's the next year. The N20 class didn't open up sail development, and still hasn't (EP and Performance sails are the only class legal Nacra 20 One Design sails approved), just the south came up with a Open 20 rule and Texas came up with another and the West Coast is sailing Glasers...it's all fractured with no leadership. I had skin in the game at the time of the 2010 vote, so yes, I am well aware of what happened on the N20 front. There were certainly other issues at play, Nacra having financial troubles at the time, new Nacra under European ownership could care less about the N20 (F18 is the popular boat in Europe), effectively no new N20's built post 2006/07, mast costs being an issue, and the big killer, the class association just died. No one to run the class or drum up event support is what nailed the lid on the coffin of an otherwise great boat. And that is a common story with bleeding edge technology, single-manufacturer one design boats.

As far as F18 class health, its still doing well in NE, we had 15+ boats on the line at Sail Newport in early July and 8 in Hyannis a few weeks later. They are expecting 15-18 F18's for the NE100 this weekend, compared with 2 F20FCS', 1 F20C and 1 N20. I agree more needs to be done to drum up support. Pre-registration at this falls nationals is under 30 boats and under 30 boats attended the Charlotte Harbor FL, compared with 60+ boats in 2013 attendance is down. New venues and better spreading of the word are going to keep the class alive, its still the best double handed boat in NA, if you aren't light enough to sail a H16 and want to actually enjoy sailing downwind...

There already is a 18' foiling boat, its called the Flying Phantom, hull shape is the Phantom F18 hull shape but the similarity stops there. Talking with some to the F20FCS guys, the boat is great and a rocketship but you need a strong, experienced crew to sail, they are substantially more expensive than the F18, and in over 20 kts of breeze they are running for the shore as the boat is doing in the low 30kts downwind on the foils without the kite and its a handful, a big handful for the weekend warrior and older folks. The non foiling boats are more accessible to the average person. The big question IMO is what happens with the N17 (which is really the exact boat we are talking about here, a modern spin on the F18 Infusion with C boards and lower weight, but look at the build quality fiasco there).

Last edited by samc99us; 08/18/16 02:31 PM.

F18 Infusion
#283317 - 08/19/16 10:32 AM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: samc99us]  
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That was the one thing that did interest me on the foiling boats was the obsolescence of the spinnaker... One less sail to worry about hoisting/dousing... If my foiler can haul butt up/down without changing sail area that would be fabulous.


Jay

#283319 - 08/19/16 12:56 PM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: ratherbsailing]  
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samc99us Offline
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Jay, that's where the foiling A makes a lot of sense. It's arguably cheaper to campaign than the spin boats as you only have one sail to replace and at least in breeze the speed around the course is similar or faster. Downside is what you save in sails goes right back into foils, but I think some of that is slowing down a bit (and development going back into rigs). The A is arguably the fastest growing high performance class in North America right now, despite the foiling/non foiling doom and gloom predictions.

Last edited by samc99us; 08/19/16 12:58 PM.

F18 Infusion
#283347 - 08/22/16 08:57 AM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: samc99us]  
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Interesting... I would have figured the Moth or foiling kiteboard as growing the fastest.. Both being easily assembled/transported by a single sailor.


Jay

#283348 - 08/22/16 11:55 AM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: samc99us]  
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David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us

Incorrect on the N20 issue Dave. The fleet voted not to open up the sail plan at Spring Fever in 2010, with the Nacra appointed class president present (so a real vote), then half the fleet left and showed up with F18's the next year. The N20 class didn't open up sail development, and still hasn't (EP and Performance sails are the only class legal Nacra 20 One Design sails approved), just the south came up with a Open 20 rule and Texas came up with another and the West Coast is sailing Glasers...it's all fractured with no leadership. I had skin in the game at the time of the 2010 vote, so yes, I am well aware of what happened on the N20 front. There were certainly other issues at play, Nacra having financial troubles at the time, new Nacra under European ownership could care less about the N20 (F18 is the popular boat in Europe), effectively no new N20's built post 2006/07, mast costs being an issue, and the big killer, the class association just died. No one to run the class or drum up event support is what nailed the lid on the coffin of an otherwise great boat. And that is a common story with bleeding edge technology, single-manufacturer one design boats.



Thank you for the clarification Sam. The point is mucking with the boat even thought it was a splinter group did not save the class and in fact likely hastened its death. If there is a better mouse trap out there then trying to make your class "like" that mouse trap isn't going to save it. The F18 class has never been about the boat and quite honestly the boat aint that great and never has been. To this day I still have F16 sailors telling me why the F18 sucks, like I'm not aware I'm one dragging the beast up the beach! The F18 class has always been about stability and keeping old boats pretty much competitive. It's a great formula that isn't broken in my opinion. Foiling is a fad. :-) (thinking of you Mr Curry)



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#283368 - 08/24/16 02:45 PM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: David Ingram]  
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
The F18 class has always been about stability and keeping old boats pretty much competitive. It's a great formula that isn't broken in my opinion.


I'm pretty sure that's why the other "old" classes (H-16 most notably) are still healthy. They haven't lost their focus in light of the new flashy stuff.


Jay

#283434 - 09/01/16 07:01 PM Re: F18 Overall weight, Change or Not [Re: ratherbsailing]  
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This is a really tough subject. I've sat in on the World Council meetings, emails, and national meetings about this. It's a great debate how this can be done. But the bottom line is all the current F18 sailors love their boats for what they are. If we could have them be lighter sure we'd love them even more but not at the cost of losing sailors because their boats are no longer competitive.
My Infusion and most of them that have been coming out are light. Mine is 381 lbs.... I can't notice a difference at all.
Bach, As far as the class being dead. I can appreciate your standpoint but every class goes through waves, look where the A class was 5 years ago or so. There are definitely patches of F18s that are doing poorly but actually nationwide we are doing better.
CRAW, CRAM, SAN FRAN bay area, San Diego, Northeast are all doing strong with new owners in the fleets and regularly getting 10-15 boats at multiple weekend events. We don't get 20-30 boats local regattas anymore but we have a lot more regattas and a fleet that is spread out in diversity, age, and etc.
I think the blue collar, weekend warrior aspect of the F18 fleet is what we all love, but it also hurts the class in that we can't always get away from work to travel to events or have the fanciest newest equipment, but at the end of the day it's okay because the events will be there and you can do just fine on a cheap platform. Hopefully someday all the dots connect and we can get more boats together in one place.
Event promotion is also tough, it comes down to volunteers and you get what you pay for. I'd love to have a full PR and Media team for each event and helping me with the class, but instead it's mostly been falling on my shoulders with support periodically from the other board members. The Organizers sometimes do a good job but are limited by their life responsibilities on top of organizing the event.
All that being said, the class is alive and well, if from your view doesn't reflect that then please step up and help!
Regards,
Todd Riccardi

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