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#283755 - 11/01/16 10:19 AM Re: 35th America's Cup ***** [Re: garda]  
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Originally Posted by garda

On a different note - when the UFO wasn't foiling, how fast was it? It's a cool idea, but from a quick look it's hard to see it being quick in light stuff, since once off the foils it is basically a very short cat.


I would almost guess they'd be about the same speed as a non-planing windsurfer of the same length? Maybe a bit slower depending on the sail size?

I would ask if the boat can sail a W/L course without foiling or would it be better served with a triangular course like the non-spin boats?

But that price-point and ease of use certainly gets my attention. How hard is it to foil? Is it constant weight/sail/tiller movement like the Wazp or A-foiler?


Jay

-- Have You Seen This? --
#283773 - 11/02/16 07:52 PM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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garda Offline
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Hmmm, could be. That will make it interesting in places with fluky and often light winds, and basically impossible to handicap.

It's interesting to see that SCHRS has reduced the foiling penalty to 4% - that's a much smaller boost in performance than the hype had said. It fits in with the foilers being beaten over the line at Texel. Obviously the Moth has picked up vastly more pace than that, but the Moth is arguably a very special case that just fits into the right corner for foiling in several ways.

It's also interesting to see that SCHRS is recommending special classes for foilers. The fact that they don't seem to have the claimed speed advantage, and that they may have to race separately, may mean that they won't be the future as some claim.

Last edited by garda; 11/02/16 07:52 PM.
#283774 - 11/02/16 09:26 PM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: garda]  
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Quote
The fact that they don't seem to have the claimed speed advantage, and that they may have to race separately, may mean that they won't be the future as some claim.


Well... you either foil... or you don't on the course.... A single number handicap system is doomed to cover this huge performance difference of the design. Then of course... you have to handicap the huge skill factor in flying the boat... can you fly the boat around the entire course... half the course.. or intermittently and so how much of this factor goes into the rating. Its a big ask for a single number rating system.


crac.sailregattas.com
#283775 - 11/02/16 11:11 PM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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Sure, but it's still a bit surprising that the foilers aren't faster overall. It may be because the sailing media is very much caught up in the hype, so we only get to hear about the good performances from the foilers. They are taking press releases from the foiler manufacturers that talk everything up, but everyone goes quiet when the foilers are beaten across the line (as in the last two Texels).

As you say, it's hard for a single number system to work with foilers. Give it a few years and the foilers could be as separate from the seahuggers as cats are from monos.

#283846 - 11/07/16 06:45 PM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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Garda, I disagree with your statement on the 1st that foilers are denigrating the rest of sailing. Nothing that I know about foiling sullies the reputation of sailing in general or non-foiling sailing in particular. It is just another (now) available way to appreciate the sport I love.

I sail almost everything - I regularly sail big boats (that Beneteau 40.7 mentioned earlier), big multihulls, beach cats (including a little Hobie Wave), and this summer some foilers including the Phantom and the S9. All are enjoyable and require very different skills. I am 63 now and started sailing in college so the variety is an attractive feature of sailing and any new type of boat doesn't detract from it but rather enhances the sport!

While the UFO was not foiling it seemed to sail as fast as the Wave would have sailed but we were in an area by ourselves so there were no other boats around to use as a gauge. We were there to test sail some foilers and we were sailing in marginal conditions in any direction that better got the boat foil borne so I can't speak to how well it would race a WL course either way. I do think that you would want to stay in protected waters as the freeboard is probably even less than a Laser when not foiling. I did see it being as fast as the moths (there is a YouTube video of that also) when it was breezier. The Clarks have put a lot of design thought into this little boat and I was especially impressed with the sail and rig - a VERY clever arrangement to provide shape from very full to very flat very easily. The wishbone boom ends at the spreader tips and has a forward angle to the mainsheet so that it will push the boom into the spreaders and bend the mast as much as you allow by how tight/loose you have the diamond wire control line at the bottom of the mast. You have to see it but it is very simple and highly effective.

I have no interest in this boat other than sailing being a passion but I see no reason for anything but encouragement for this kind of thought and effort, especially from this group.

Last edited by Mike Fahle; 11/07/16 06:48 PM.
#283852 - 11/08/16 08:00 AM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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Mike, if the people I was referring to had your attitude that foiling is just another way to enjoy the sport we love, that would be great and I wouldn't criticise anything.

However, the people I'm referring to are those who say things like "foiling is the future for young sailors"; "this is the future"; "the best sailors only want to race on foils"; "it is the future of our sport at all levels....If you’re a young kid getting into sailing you want to be in the foiling generation."

The message they are pounding in, time and time again, is quite specific - there is only one future (certainly at the top level) and it is foiling. If you sail where it's too rough for foilers, where it's too light for foilers, where there's no racing for foilers, then you have no future in the sport. If you happen to prefer any other form of the sport, then you have no future. If you cannot afford to throw away a H16 and get a foiler, you have no future.

Saying that the other parts of the sport have no future is clearly denigrating the rest of the sport. Sure, a lot of it is childish marketing bulldust, but then surely we can call them on that, and on their narrow-minded view on what the sport can be. It's pretty simple - if people want to us to be positive about their part of the sport, they can stop saying that the rest of the sport has no future.

Interesting info on the UFO speed. It would be great to see it work, and it probably will. All I'm saying is that it doesn't help the sport if other people (and it's not the Clarks) spend their time saying that 99.X% of the sport has no future.




Last edited by garda; 11/08/16 09:13 PM.
#285834 - 02/16/17 06:04 AM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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I'm sure it works but it does look a bit silly seeing these big guys sitting on hometrainers eek
[Linked Image]
http://www.catsailingnews.com/2017/02/team-new-zealand-official-story-behind.html

#285842 - 02/16/17 11:10 AM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18]  
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I should have worked for them... I had the idea to use pedal power many years ago. Legs are stronger than arms.

I think at the time the gearing and having to have a guy sitting opposite (pedaling backwards like a traditional coffee grinder) were the big hangups....

Now, let's say they pedal the heck out of the boat and then have to run across during the tack/gybe. Let's see how well that works.. From my triathlons, jumping off a bike at full sprint sometimes works... and sometimes doesn't

wonder if recumbant pedal/seat would be more aerodynamic... Although those bikes may be easier to get on/off.

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 02/16/17 11:12 AM.

Jay

#285891 - 02/17/17 05:15 PM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I should have worked for them... I had the idea to use pedal power many years ago. Legs are stronger than arms.

I think at the time the gearing and having to have a guy sitting opposite (pedaling backwards like a traditional coffee grinder) were the big hangups....

Now, let's say they pedal the heck out of the boat and then have to run across during the tack/gybe. Let's see how well that works.. From my triathlons, jumping off a bike at full sprint sometimes works... and sometimes doesn't

wonder if recumbant pedal/seat would be more aerodynamic... Although those bikes may be easier to get on/off.


I posted about how the recumbant bike arrangement would certainly be a little more socially uncomfortable on FB the other day laugh


Jake Kohl
#286272 - 03/01/17 07:00 AM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Jake]  
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Jake Kohl
#286281 - 03/01/17 11:34 PM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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I loved the comeback, from being down 8-1 last time, but I'm no fan of Larry. I wish he had laid down his ego just enough to have this AC in SFO again instead of BDA. SFO is a perfect spot for lots of reasons; wind, spectators, accessibility, etc. Bermuda?? Nobody is going to go, or even watch it on TV, hell, half of the US citizens couldn't find Bermuda on a map! Out of sight, out of mind. Thanks Larry, you tool.

I've always loved the Kiwi's sailing expertise, going back to Peter Blake and his red sox, but I do not like Emirates sponsoring them now (are there no Emiraties who know how to sail?), and trying to take over the world with our gas money.

Wouldn't it be nice if the original rules were still in tact, and each country had to provide a boat, sailors, and venue, domestically?


Blade F16
#777
#286283 - 03/02/17 04:31 AM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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"Wouldn't it be nice if the original rules were still in tact, and each country had to provide a boat, sailors, and venue, domestically? "
I agree 100%.
When they departed from these rules the event was over.
Now it is just dollar against dollar instead of country against country.


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

#286284 - 03/02/17 08:07 AM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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AC starts in about 2 months.

Has there been any announcement as to TV or Internet presentation of the upcoming Louis Vuitton America’s Cup Qualifiers in May or the final Cup races in June? AC website says NBC will show it but they said that about ACWS but it never happened.

NBSSN (NBS Sports Network) had the rights to the ACWS and buried it. They filmed it all but only broadcast a 30 minute review of each regatta. I've found complete recordings of New York and Chicago but they were not shown live.

I wrote to NBC and NBCSN, and received no answer.

#286288 - 03/02/17 09:08 AM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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Yes, Bermuda is an interesting choice...

But at least they should have had one of the LVC series stops in SF to take advantage of the predictable wind. I would have considered Freemantle as well for it's "Doctor". So you'd have 3 relatively predictable wind venues (Freemantle, SF and Portsmouth) and 3 variables

In a perfect world, it would be nice to see the economic blip that SF got for the Cup. While it was easy to spectate for free I'd venture a guess that there was a lot of extra restaurant seats taken, burgers eaten, taxis hired, trinkets bought outside of the Cup village which overall might have come close to some of the wildly optimistic targets that Larry sold to the city of SF.

But moving to the future... since few of us have airline tickets to Bermuda (or moved our yachts there), what in your mind would be a reasonable way for the AC franchise to make money off all of our eyeballs?

I for one loved the last AC YouTube stuff, even if it happened to be delayed by an hour or so to make sure production/broadcast was smooth.

Would I buy a Pay-per-view at $4.99 for the final series? Probably. Would I buy that app that didn't work? NOT. I don't need real time (although that's cool) as long as I can see the full replay.

The graphics were cool too (took some getting used to, but understand why it was needed for the non-sailing types). Gary's comments were laughable, but the old lead dragging stodgies need a familiar face.

Grant's "sex breath" was funny too, as was some "spicy" dialogue that slipped through the onboard camera/mics.

If the AC would copy whatever the NFL or the frigging Golf people are doing to get people to watch (graphics, back story, etc) it might help. They tried last time and it was moderately successful. The greatest comeback of all time was a nice bonus.


Jay

#286296 - 03/02/17 11:42 AM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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The argument against nationality rules has always made me cringe. Basically, because a bunch of ethically-challenged rich people can attain dual citizenship, it was viewed as a rule too easily broken and therefore not needed.

When pressed, the same people will claim that this is unfair to countries/entries with less money. BS smokescreen, there are no poor players in this game, and never will be. Besides, if a relatively poorer country shows up with a better boat and/or sailors, they still have a shot at winning.

I wish we could get spirit of the rule to win the day, but that's obviously expecting too much.

Mike

Edit: Insert a tirade from Mark here, telling me to stop wishing the world was a better place, only by my definition, etc...

Last edited by brucat; 03/02/17 11:47 AM.
#286297 - 03/02/17 11:47 AM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: brucat]  
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meh, make whatever rules they want... just keep it high-tech and exciting to watch.

This particular trophy is not "sport for the people". It's competition for the elites. The "people" should just watch... preferably far away from the elites.

It's like trying to make Polo a sport for the poor. Too bad the poor keep eating the horses.

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 03/02/17 11:48 AM.

Jay

#286305 - 03/02/17 02:57 PM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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Now there's an idea I can get on board with! ;^)


Blade F16
#777
#286309 - 03/02/17 04:15 PM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Timbo]  
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good with taco sauce!


Jay

#286310 - 03/02/17 04:26 PM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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Mike Fahle Offline
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What I love about the way the AC has gone is the accelerated "trickle down" of technology. I am convinced that w/o the AC driving foiling technological and design improvements then we would not be seeing foiling beach boats like the Phantom 18, the Stunt (or S)14, the F101 tri, and quite a few others. We are seeing foiling Vendee Globe boats, and several smaller keel boats with lifting foils. Had they stayed with the IACC boats, foiling would be years behind.

#286332 - 03/03/17 02:28 PM Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker]  
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NYYC says they're buying a set of automated "drone" marks. We'll see how far that ever trickles...

Mike

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