| What's up with the America's Cup #286766 05/08/17 12:48 PM 05/08/17 12:48 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo OP
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I just found some You Tube videos from "World on Water" that show the boys practicing in Bermuda. This is from yesterday and it also shows the pedal power training for ETNZ, they are going to use their feet instead of their arms to grind the hydraulic pressure. I'm wondering why they are using big heavy guys over 200lbs with big upper bodies instead of some out of work Tour De France types that only weigh 135lbs and can pedal harder, all day? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzh5VfDN80E
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Timbo]
#286767 05/08/17 01:26 PM 05/08/17 01:26 PM |
Joined: Mar 2017 Posts: 118 fl Mn3Again
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Posts: 118 fl | easy - bicyclists are afraid of the water but now my baseless guess would be that they need "power lifters" vs. "endurance guys" I just found some You Tube videos from "World on Water" that show the boys practicing in Bermuda. This is from yesterday and it also shows the pedal power training for ETNZ, they are going to use their feet instead of their arms to grind the hydraulic pressure. I'm wondering why they are using big heavy guys over 200lbs with big upper bodies instead of some out of work Tour De France types that only weigh 135lbs and can pedal harder, all day? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzh5VfDN80E
Mn3
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Mn3Again]
#286768 05/08/17 05:23 PM 05/08/17 05:23 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo OP
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | Look at how bow down they all seem to be when they are on the foils. At the beginning of that video you see the Brit team stuff a bow during a tack/gibe. At first I thought it was a Brit boat only thing, but later in the video you see all the boats are sailing like that, almost all the time when they are foiling. I wonder why.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Timbo]
#286770 05/09/17 08:43 AM 05/09/17 08:43 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | I was curious about that bow-down hull attitude as well.
Perhaps it is the best way to keep the mast as vertical as possible? I presume with a wing you don't have as much mast rake as you would with a sail since the draft profile would be much different.
Jay
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#286771 05/09/17 08:45 AM 05/09/17 08:45 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | in something totally not related (cuz i'm the king of hijack)... Timbo I've got the Naples - Key West race this week (Thursday down, Sunday back), so I could use your help next year if you can keep your calendar clear... & Carlos if he's still alive
Jay
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#286775 05/09/17 01:11 PM 05/09/17 01:11 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo OP
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | in something totally not related (cuz i'm the king of hijack)... Timbo I've got the Naples - Key West race this week (Thursday down, Sunday back), so I could use your help next year if you can keep your calendar clear... & Carlos if he's still alive Remind me to bid it off next year, tell me around April 5th, when our May bidding opens! I just saw Carlos last Saturday, he's now in Miami going through 737 school, he'll be flying for Miami Air, and he's looking to move to somewhere down there. He might be available next May, heck, he may be retired, again, and again by then!
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: mbounds]
#286776 05/09/17 01:14 PM 05/09/17 01:14 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo OP
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | The bow down attitude is the result of restrictions in the angle of the rudder foils and the different speeds upwind vs. downwind.
Upwind, the boats are relatively level; the boats are moving 25-30 kts. A higher angle of attack is required on the rudder foils to lift and stabilize the back of the boat.
Downwind, the speed increases to 35-40 kts; a lower angle of attack on the rudder foils is required to achieve the same lift, so the boats assume a bow-down attitude. I wonder why they don't change the rudder foil angle of attack by raking the rudders just a little bit, like they do the main foils, unless changing the rudder rake is prohibited by the new rules.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Timbo]
#286777 05/09/17 08:38 PM 05/09/17 08:38 PM |
Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 1,884 Detroit, MI mbounds
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Posts: 1,884 Detroit, MI | changing the rudder rake is prohibited by the new rules. There's your answer. Limited to 3 degrees of movement. | | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: brucat]
#286779 05/09/17 09:45 PM 05/09/17 09:45 PM |
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | Yeah that seems like kind of a dumb rule considering they want a balls out foiling catamaran going as fast as possible, why restrict the rudder rake when so much other stuff is made for going fast?
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Timbo]
#286782 05/10/17 01:54 PM 05/10/17 01:54 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 890 Dunedin Causeway, FL David Parker
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Posts: 890 Dunedin Causeway, FL | For a detailed answer to the bow-down attitude watch this short video by Slingsby. Sign up for the Oracle Facebook page and get regular news videos from them. Really well done and some great video of them flying (and of Jimmy falling off ...again!). Facebook link to Slingsby explaining bow-downLatest news (May 10)...Oracle just capsized (again!) but no damage and nobody hurt. | | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: mbounds]
#286784 05/10/17 11:03 PM 05/10/17 11:03 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo OP
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | changing the rudder rake is prohibited by the new rules. There's your answer. Limited to 2 degrees of movement. 3 degrees according to that video, but my question is, why are there any limits?
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Timbo]
#286789 05/11/17 02:38 PM 05/11/17 02:38 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | I'm sure part of the box rule that the defender put together. The question of "why" is probably best left to them.
Maybe to limit the design options (and part of the arms-race)? In doing so, they may limit the wide variety of performance between boats/designs and therefore keep the racing somewhat close?
Jay
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#286790 05/11/17 02:40 PM 05/11/17 02:40 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | I am looking forward to the possibility of watching fleet racing at 40+ kts downwind.
Can you imagine flying toward C-gate with 4-6 other boats and closing speeds on opposite gybes approaching 70 knots? yeehaw! Talk about the tactician having an anyerism
Jay
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#286791 05/12/17 05:50 AM 05/12/17 05:50 AM |
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | These cats are what, 45 feet long?
And they are making nearly the same speeds as the 72' cats from 3 years ago!
Wow.
It used to be that a longer waterline made for a faster boat, but once they get up on the foils I guess it comes down to weight and sail area for determining max speed. Foil mechanics and control are becoming more important than waterline length.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Timbo]
#286795 05/12/17 02:15 PM 05/12/17 02:15 PM |
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 586 Hobart, Tasmania, Oz. Dazz
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Posts: 586 Hobart, Tasmania, Oz. | 50 footers and not nearly as fast, they are way faster that the 72's around the course. seems that the rig and hulls are not as important as the foils These cats are what, 45 feet long?
And they are making nearly the same speeds as the 72' cats from 3 years ago!
Wow.
It used to be that a longer waterline made for a faster boat, but once they get up on the foils I guess it comes down to weight and sail area for determining max speed. Foil mechanics and control are becoming more important than waterline length.
C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design "Darph Bobo"
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: mbounds]
#286796 05/12/17 05:52 PM 05/12/17 05:52 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | The bow down attitude is the result of restrictions in the angle of the rudder foils and the different speeds upwind vs. downwind.
Upwind, the boats are relatively level; the boats are moving 25-30 kts. A higher angle of attack is required on the rudder foils to lift and stabilize the back of the boat.
Downwind, the speed increases to 35-40 kts; a lower angle of attack on the rudder foils is required to achieve the same lift, so the boats assume a bow-down attitude. I do realize that's what Oracle said about their bow down...but it also stands to reason that they would want to rake their rigs more vertically when sailing downwind and rake them back upwind...all I'm sayin. There is no advantage for everyone to spill their techniques - trust nothing any team says at this stage
Jake Kohl | | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Jake]
#286800 05/13/17 08:56 AM 05/13/17 08:56 AM |
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Posts: 1,403 | | | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Mike Fahle]
#286824 05/18/17 09:56 AM 05/18/17 09:56 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | This whole bike thing has a tinge of "absurdity" to it.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Jake]
#286826 05/18/17 10:55 AM 05/18/17 10:55 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 890 Dunedin Causeway, FL David Parker
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Posts: 890 Dunedin Causeway, FL | Cap'n Don says it's a hoax. Cap'n Bob says it's a fad. But NZ has a long memory of yelling "Hydro, hydro...!" back in San Francisco when pressure went down. I bet it was high on their "never again" list. Listen in at about 1:48 NZ f-upI love watching these old videos of SF. Would someone post once again how to embed a video, please. | | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Jake]
#286828 05/18/17 12:13 PM 05/18/17 12:13 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | This whole bike thing has a tinge of "absurdity" to it. Legs have more power than arms (well, except for kenny), so I would have thought a recumbant type setup with proper gearing could do the trick.. I hadn't thought about in-line bicycle style pedaling. But I guess you could stand up and crank (can't do that in recumbant format)
Jay
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: David Parker]
#286829 05/18/17 12:50 PM 05/18/17 12:50 PM |
Joined: Mar 2017 Posts: 118 fl Mn3Again
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Posts: 118 fl | Cap'n Don says it's a hoax. Cap'n Bob says it's a fad. But NZ has a long memory of yelling "Hydro, hydro...!" back in San Francisco when pressure went down. I bet it was high on their "never again" list. Listen in at about 1:48 NZ f-upI love watching these old videos of SF. Would someone post once again how to embed a video, please. Dave, I don't see it anymore = perhaps when Damon made the upgrade (march) the feature to embed a video has disappeared and all you can do is post it as a link
Mn3
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Mike Fahle]
#286833 05/19/17 07:21 AM 05/19/17 07:21 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Mike,
I didn't mean in the sense of technology or whether or not it made sense - I just meant in the sense of sailing. I'm very familiar with the systems in use on those boats. I'm all for multihulls, wings, foils, etc. at the bleeding edge of the sport but you take someone not familiar with the America's cup and show them the New Zealand boat, everyone jumps to the conclusion that they are peddling props on the bottom of the boat. It takes a lot of explaining through furrowed brows that the bicycles (another mode of human transportation) were mounted to a sailboat (typically considered relatively slow) to build up hydraulic pressure so the two or three guys at the back of the boat can push buttons and control the sails and foils and make it go. To someone not fully invested in sailing as a sport, it sure as hell seems like a lot of complication to go 40 miles an hour....hence the tinge of absurdity.
Last edited by Jake; 05/19/17 07:23 AM.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: Jake]
#286834 05/19/17 08:46 AM 05/19/17 08:46 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | Jake, I'm sure they said that back in the days of the galley boats... Lots of dudes sitting at oars while a guy in the back pounds a drum and pushes buttons (or rudder) But you engineers could help me understand the most efficient way to store hydraulic power. Since liquids are essentially non-compressible, are they building up pneumatic pressure to apply the hydraulics later? If not what is the mechanism used to "build" up the power to be used "during peak demand"?
Jay
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#286835 05/19/17 12:04 PM 05/19/17 12:04 PM |
Joined: Mar 2017 Posts: 118 fl Mn3Again
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Posts: 118 fl | But you engineers could help me understand the most efficient way to store hydraulic power.
I'm no engineer but i did stay near a Holiday Inn last night... i think they use this type of machine to build and store the hydro power
Mn3
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#286838 05/20/17 11:00 AM 05/20/17 11:00 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo OP
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I know on most big jets there are hydraulic accumulators that do have a nitrogen precharge of around 1000 psi. This accumulator system is usually only on the brakes. The problem is, once you pump the breaks a couple times, the precharge is gone, so you need hydraulic pumps (either electric or mechanical off the gearbox) to recharge the system.
There are period of very high demand for hydraulic pressure on an airliner, which are when the gear is retracted right after takeoff and at flap extension/gear door retraction after extension on configuring for landing. The 767 and 777, in addition to electric and mechanical hydraulic pumps, have an air driven demand pump, which use bleed air off the engines and only kicks on during periods of high demand, or if one/both of the electric/mechanical pumps fail.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#286844 05/22/17 11:52 AM 05/22/17 11:52 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | So does anybody have any idea if/when/where we will be able to watch any of the America's Cup racing here in the USA?
Jake Kohl | | | Re: What's up with the America's Cup
[Re: David Parker]
#286849 05/23/17 12:43 PM 05/23/17 12:43 PM |
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 5 Saint Cloud, FL. USA - Lake Eu... FloridaRoadie
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Posts: 5 Saint Cloud, FL. USA - Lake Eu... | When NBC did not do the broadcast a couple of years ago. I tried the America's Cup app with my phone, when the app first came out. I tried to connect to the first event, but could not connect to the live stream. After a bit of arguing over multiple emails and a couple of calls with them I got my money back for the app. Since then I have used the internet with my VPN. I set my VPN to a server to a country where they were streaming live. Then stream the broadcast. This site shows where how you can view the events by selecting your country How to watch The 35th America's Cup in Bermuda
Greg Saint Cloud FL. Lake Eustis Sail Club
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