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#286731 - 04/30/17 12:06 PM shocked self-confidence after capsize  
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northsea junkie Offline
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northsea junkie  Offline
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Last time I capseized was about 6 years ago.

Today in a strong offshore wind it happened again. Twenty years ago I could upright my cat in about 2 minutes: swim to the topball, swim the bow in the wind, pull myself via the shroud back to the hull, stand up and hang. Done.

At my abhorrence that didn't work anymore. I was too late, water felt like lead, boots were too slippy on the hull. After 4 times trying and capseizing the other site, I had to face that help was needed. So called the coastguard who sent two rescue vessels. One from the north and one from the south.

I was floating already miles away from the coast and waves started to be high. With two men on the hull and a boat at the top, it finally succeeded.

So, what's next. I'm shocked in my confidence. Were those five years decay of my body that much??? Was it fear????
Was (is) it dementia?????????

Last edited by northsea junkie; 04/30/17 02:20 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
-- Google Links --
#286733 - 04/30/17 02:03 PM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: northsea junkie]  
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Dermot Offline
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Dublin, Ireland
I can't tell you what you need to do, but this is my cat sailing career blush It shows what cats I sailed based on my age and fitness. I will be 70 in September.
I started sailing cats in 1983 on a Catapult, moved on to a Dart 18 in 1988 when my eldest son was old enough to crew. Then in 1997 we moved on to a Dart Hawk. In 2002 I decided that a Spitfire, sailing with a light female crew, would be a suitable move. My son also moved to a Spitfire. In 2008 I decided that I was slowing down, swapped the Spitfire for a Shadow. In 2014, having had trouble a few times climbing back on the Shadow after a capsize, and needing help from rescue boats, I finally returned to my original cat, the Catapult, which has a simple righting system. Almost all my sailing for the last 10 years has been at events where rescue has been available. I am very happy that I am still sailing cats, even though I am no longer at the top of the fleet.


Dermot
Catapult 265
www.catamaran.ie
#286734 - 04/30/17 05:23 PM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: Dermot]  
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Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Dermot, how have you been? Glad to see you are still around and still sailing!

I'm just 2 years away from 60 and I think for my 60th birthday I'll have to get an A cat, and not a full foil boat but a floater, if there's still a fleet of those by then. If not, then maybe I'll get a Wave.

Take care and keep in touch. I fly right over Dublin just about once a week.... on my way to Tel Aviv. I hope someday we have a 'problem' and have to divert into Dublin so I can catch up with you!


Blade F16
#777
#286735 - 05/01/17 03:36 AM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: Timbo]  
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flying_dutchman Offline
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The Netherlands, Europe
Hi Timo,

Nevertheless it was a superb sailing day: trip almost 80 km (!!) and top speed still close to 35 km/h.
Our club cancelled the races but went out with 3 cats anyway. Had all 2 person crew and kept visual contact anytime.
Flipped over in all possible ways that's why I still love H16 sailing.

The strong wind could be handled, the waves in combination with fierce gust were tricky. The water was still rather cold by the way. And to be honest: our location is still a lake but a serious one ... (Grevelingenmeer)

Don't doubt your self-confidence but you might as well have another cat close by under these circumstances. You can always get material trouble or get hurt somehow ...

Happy sailing

Eddie

Hobie16 # 99173

Attached Files
Windguru-30april2017.jpg (89 downloads)

Happy sailing from The Netherlands!

Eddie

Hobie 16 (1992) # 99173 & CT11 - with spi
#286736 - 05/01/17 06:00 AM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: Dermot]  
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JeffS Offline
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Kingston SE South Australia
G'day Ronald I reckon you must have had water in your mast, with big waves it's easier to right a cat than flat water unless your mast is heavy, the only other reason would be if your blocks came unattached from your mainsail as you wouldn't get lift. I would pressure test your mast and spray soapy water on all your fittings while blowing air into it, I'm sure you'll find bubbles


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#286737 - 05/01/17 06:32 AM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: JeffS]  
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Gilo Offline
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Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Righting the boat is one thing, but getting back onto it is sometimes a challenge.

Getting all your sheets very loose and righting it head to wind sounds like a given but isn't always done. It's important to make sure the boat doesn't get off once it's up.

On the Falcon F16 when sailing 2up, I right the boat hanging of the righting line, while my girlfriend just helps a bit on the dolphin striker popping the mast up. Once it comes up she throws her leg over the lower hull and she's on, so only one in the water.

The Falcon also has quite some volume therefore some put a line like the one in the picture creating a step to get on.

That has always helped.

https://goo.gl/photos/55T7VUp42G9pneSG9

Gill


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
Stories: bladef16.blogspot.com
#286738 - 05/01/17 09:45 AM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: northsea junkie]  
Joined: Mar 2017
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Mn3Again Offline
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Mn3Again  Offline
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fl
Originally Posted by northsea junkie


I was floating already miles away from the coast and waves started to be high. With two men on the hull and a boat at the top, it finally succeeded.


don't you carry an anchor when solo sailing?
that's the first thing i do when i capsize - drop my anchor to prevent drift

Do you carry righting bags? i carry 2

glad you had a vhf (or other) - to call for help

maybe time to reconsider your vehicle or what conditions it's safe to sail in (i know you sail in wild conditions i wouldn't sail in)


Mn3
#286740 - 05/01/17 12:37 PM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: Mn3Again]  
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northsea junkie Offline
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Petten Netherlands
Hi Andrew, thanks for your reply.

With regard to anchors: seabottom was about 15 m. deep and consist of fine sand. No way a small anchor will hold my cat in 30 kts. in that condition.

And righting bags (waterbags?) were not on board. At this moment I'm pondering if they are workable in my conditions.

Now after one night sleep, I more and more realize that what happend yesterday at sea had definitly to do with faults and mind-state of me.
In fact I was not cold-blooded enough; the situation took over.
So, I have to kick my cat again on its side and practise uprighting. In fact what I was used to do in the past for fun and beach audience.

Plus I indeed have to re-evaluate the uprighting system which I use and its backup.

So, that doesn't make the shock less, but I take it all as a warning. Imagine this happening in wintertime (when I sail also)!!!


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
#286741 - 05/01/17 12:47 PM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: JeffS]  
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northsea junkie Offline
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Petten Netherlands
Thanks Jeff,

The mast was the first thing is suspected. I cannot hear water streaming if I cant it while horizontal. But you'r right for a definite answer I have to spray it in the sun.

You are absolutely right about waves making it easier, but read my answer to Mn3again.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
#286744 - 05/01/17 02:17 PM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: northsea junkie]  
Joined: Mar 2017
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Mn3Again Offline
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Mn3Again  Offline
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fl
Originally Posted by northsea junkie
Hi Andrew, thanks for your reply.

With regard to anchors: seabottom was about 15 m. deep and consist of fine sand. No way a small anchor will hold my cat in 30 kts. in that condition.

I carry a 4lb alum anchor with about 1 meter of chain and 12 meters of line.- it holds great even in sand but yes, 15m (45') is an issue - you would need 75 meters of line rhode


Mn3
#286745 - 05/01/17 08:28 PM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: Mn3Again]  
Joined: Jan 2004
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srm Offline
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srm  Offline
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Pretty sure this has been discussed before, but what about deploying a sea anchor from the bow tang during a capsize. It wouldn't completely stop the drift, but would certainly slow it significantly. It would also help turn the bows into the wind as well as prevent the boat from sailing off on it's own after being righted.

sm

#286748 - 05/02/17 12:16 AM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: srm]  
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northsea junkie Offline
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Petten Netherlands
Good idea, it never crossed my mind.

Have to think about a simple and practical design.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
#286749 - 05/02/17 05:17 AM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: northsea junkie]  
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JeffS Offline
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Kingston SE South Australia
G'day Ronald I'm assuming you let off your down haul, jib and main as that is enough shape in the sail to suck the sail toward the sea


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#286750 - 05/02/17 10:38 AM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: JeffS]  
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northsea junkie Offline
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Petten Netherlands
G'day Jeff.

Jib and main were loose, but I forgot the downhaul (I've an very old sail, total out of shape, so maybe that is not an issue).
The main problem was that the wind was straight offshore behind high dunes. So that creates also down-wind squalls which press the sail on the sea.

The moment I flipped, I was just at the height were there is a high forestborder and there is with this wind a kind of venturi effect.
Just at that place I was so stupid to let 1 sec my mainsheet loose in order to adjust my traveller and just at that time there was this damned squall.

So total beginners-error! Shame on me, I always teach other people to never let go of the sheet; even if you have to itch or look behind you etc.


Last edited by northsea junkie; 05/02/17 11:54 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
#286752 - 05/03/17 07:20 AM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: northsea junkie]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,164
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 12,164
South Carolina
I recommend a sea drogue / drift sock when offshore or other situations where limited outside help is available. On my F18, I sewed a pouch into the underside of the trampoline where I store a drift sock, some line, and two carabiners in there. If capsized and either difficult to right or I'm concerned the boat may get away from me once I do right it, I deploy the sock. One carabiner, already attached to the end of the line, clips to the dolphin striker post. The second carabiner, through which the line just floats through, gets clipped to the forestay bridle to keep the center of effort toward the bow. Throw the drag sock in the water. The socks typically have floats built into the edge in two places and weights sewn into the edge in an opposite two places. The sock opens up when it's in the water and the wind pressure on the boat will naturally spin the bows into the wind while you wait. Once you right the boat, the sock keeps the bows pulled toward the wind and keeps the boat from sailing away. Once I'm on the boat, it's pretty easy to pull the drift sock up to the forestay and tie it off. If I have crew (hopefully they are still with me, we can usually retrieve the sock by sailing over it slightly and stow it on the top of the trampoline somewhere leaving the line in place.

Here's an example of the sock;
drift sock

Last edited by Jake; 05/03/17 07:21 AM.

Jake Kohl
#286753 - 05/03/17 07:34 AM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: northsea junkie]  
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JeffS Offline
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JeffS  Offline
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Kingston SE South Australia
G'day Ronald the downhaul may not have been the problem but it does make the sail take an aerodynamic shape which means the air going between the sail and the water is providing lift which unfortunately may mean it lets the sail come up a bit then sucks the sail towards the water, I had that problem on an 18ft cat I had, it would let the sail come up about 3 or 4ft from the water but no higher


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#286754 - 05/03/17 07:55 AM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: Jake]  
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Mn3Again Offline
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fl
Originally Posted by Jake

Here's an example of the sock;
drift sock


Amazing how a $18.00 sock can save a life

Jake, which size do you use?


Mn3
#286755 - 05/03/17 10:25 AM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: Jake]  
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northsea junkie Offline
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Petten Netherlands
Hi Jake,

Thanks for your response about the seadrogue.

I was hoping that somebody would give the practical solution for a beach cat. And you did.

My problem was the retreival of the drogue after being uprighted. Your solution is a line via the forestay bridle through which I can lift the drogue out of the water again. ( my cat is 15 ft and I cannot reach that much forward because of shortage on volume)

Last edited by northsea junkie; 05/03/17 11:45 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
#286756 - 05/03/17 11:44 AM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: JeffS]  
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northsea junkie Offline
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Petten Netherlands
Gday Jeff
Originally Posted by JeffS
the downhaul may not have been the problem but it does make the sail take an aerodynamic shape

You mean that the main may not be a inverted wing which pulls it down.

But the trick is ofcourse to create lift with the sail just 5-10 inches out of the water. A positive aerodynamic shape.
Ball in the masttop will help you also by that.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
#286797 - 05/12/17 05:55 PM Re: shocked self-confidence after capsize [Re: northsea junkie]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,164
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,164
South Carolina
Originally Posted by northsea junkie
Hi Jake,

Thanks for your response about the seadrogue.

I was hoping that somebody would give the practical solution for a beach cat. And you did.

My problem was the retreival of the drogue after being uprighted. Your solution is a line via the forestay bridle through which I can lift the drogue out of the water again. ( my cat is 15 ft and I cannot reach that much forward because of shortage on volume)


Ronald,

Sorry - I haven't been on here in a while. I've never had to - but you could just haul the sock up to the bridle where it's connected, sail forward, and ease it back to you in the water - or, if you can clip the carabiner to the bridle so that it stays centered under the forestay, you can probably just haul it up to the forestay where it is mostly out of the water, tie it off, and sail back to shore that way.

Mine is the smaller 24" and I only tested it once - but it seemed to do just fine.

I shared this a few years ago with a guy sailing a supercat tall rig and this system reportedly got him out of a real pickle. It's lightweight and doesn't cost much. It's good to have if you are sailing where help might be far away.

Last edited by Jake; 05/12/17 05:59 PM.

Jake Kohl

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