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#286808 - 05/15/17 10:43 PM New buoyancy harness  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 399
Mike Fahle Offline
enthusiast
Mike Fahle  Offline
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There is a new harness with built-in buoyancy that is using Kickstarter to get funded. I ordered one and if YOU do that soon you can get a nice discount from the regular price after the funding goal is met. Mine will not be delivered until September but since I know of no others being sold currently, that is better than never getting one. If you like this, please order one and help it get started. There is more info here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/580141349/integra-buoyancy-trapeze-harness

-- Have You Seen This? --
#286809 - 05/15/17 11:24 PM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: Mike Fahle]  
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northsea junkie Offline
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northsea junkie  Offline
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Petten Netherlands
But how much buoyancy has this harness?

Are their sizes and buoancy for weight classes?

Is it a swimming vest or a lifesafe vest? I have the the impression that they try to offer both in one vest.
That's impossible: I have a life vest which keep my head above the water if I'm unconsious. So the foam (which is only on my chest !) is 7 cm thick. And left 2 cm thicker as right for turning me up if miy face is down.

The danger with these type of gear is that it is only for show.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
#286810 - 05/16/17 07:39 AM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: northsea junkie]  
Joined: Nov 2005
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Isotope235 Offline
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Isotope235  Offline
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Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by northsea junkie
But how much buoyancy has this harness?

The page states that the harness is ISO12402-5 certified, therefore it is a 50 Newton (11 lbs) "flotation aid", not a "lifejacket". It is not USCG certified (and does not meet the 70N / 15.5 lbs minimum buoyancy required). It does not fulfill the requirement of racing rule 40 in the United States.

Regards,
Eric

#286811 - 05/16/17 08:50 AM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: Isotope235]  
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waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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So, based on that it may not be acceptable to use during sanctioned regattas?


Jay

#286813 - 05/16/17 09:45 AM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
So, based on that it may not be acceptable to use during sanctioned regattas?


It's not acceptable to use where USCG approved life jackets are required, period. If DNR stops you on a lake and decides to look at the fine details, you will not meet the letter of the law with this product because it is not Coast Guard Approved. That said, the CG approval process is fraught with seemingly ridiculous expense and delay. If you change very simple things on a product, it has to get approved again at a high cost. Several of the products many of us use do not meet this requirement and the list is growing while the USCG approval process remains so complicated.

I like the product idea....I'm also in need of a new Harness and the buoyancy aid that I currently wear is also not USCG approved (but I do feel that it serves my safety need very well)...I might give it a shot. However, I've participated in two previous kickstarter campaigns (unrelated to this one) and both were a complete disappointment. I'm going to have to stew on it for a little while and research the people/company "blood red" behind it a little.

edit; The exchange rate is NOT working in the US's favor against the GBP for this product at the moment, though.

Last edited by Jake; 05/16/17 09:47 AM.

Jake Kohl
#286815 - 05/16/17 10:38 AM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
Joined: Nov 2005
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Isotope235 Offline
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Isotope235  Offline
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Hillsborough, NC USA
US law (and therefore US Sailing prescriptions to the racing rules) require you to have USCG certified Type I, II, or III personal flotation devices (in good condition, of appropriate sizes, accessible) for each person aboard. Children under 13 must wear a USCG approved pfd when underway (with some exceptions). Boats 16 feet and over must also carry a type IV (throwable) PFD. Additional laws apply and state laws may add other requirements.

Technically, the law and the rules don't say that the PFD an adult wears must be USCG certified. Therefore you could wear a CE or ISO certified flotation device provided you also had a USCG certified PFD aboard (in good condition, of appropriate size, and accessible). Watch out, however, for regatta NORs and SIs that may change rule 40 and require you to wear a USCG PFD.

See http://www.ussailing.org/race-officials/rules/personal-floatation-devices-pfds/ for more information.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Last edited by Isotope235; 05/16/17 10:51 AM.
#286816 - 05/16/17 12:34 PM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: Isotope235]  
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Ventucky Red Offline
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Ventucky Red  Offline
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Back in the "hay day'' one of the So Cal shops was looking to build a combination cat sailing harness / Type III flotation PFD. From what I remember they couldn't get the USCG approval for it..

Wonder if this has been looked at recently.

#286817 - 05/16/17 01:50 PM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: Ventucky Red]  
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northsea junkie Offline
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Petten Netherlands
I'm very surprised by all this talk about USCG and other official requirements/ approval.

Hey, we are all skippers with resposibility for our lives and that of others on our tramp.
So I would say the official required buoyancy is the MINIMUM you should have. And please forget the false story about the alleged trouble you are supposed to have with lifevests.

I never go at sea without one, and never feel restricted in my movements. See my vid starting at 3:11 min:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMKThlRmCGE

That is to say; you can't swim with a lifevest!


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
#286818 - 05/16/17 03:00 PM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: Isotope235]  
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waterbug_wpb Offline
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To add to Eric's post, I believe the USCG PFDs also have to be "readily accessible" if they aren't being worn. So you can't shove them down into the hull and screw the inspection port back on... Oh, and anyone under 16 must wear them at all times outside of an enclosed cabin.

At least from what I understood from the marine patrol dudes who checked out my boat.

I was on the way back from a race day, and still wearing my pfd which (luckily) happened to be USCG approved (type II I think... Didn't have the floating pillow to keep my head upright while unconscious) when their RIB pulled out of the inlet and "chose" me to saddle up to. The crew had on those inflatable pfds.

I will say they were generally courteous and allowed me to put out a fender before they slid up against the hull. They didn't get on the boat (I think they were a little confused by the nets on the amas) but asked for all the usual paperwork and asked about the pfds. I had a pack of them sitting on the bench seat in the cabin so it was easy to reach down and grab them.

So yeah, two of my flares were out of date, and it "would be helpful" if I had a radar reflector, but I had all the daytime signal devices (mirror, floaty-tube, dye) and some strobes (not SOLAS but close) so they cut me some slack.

They said they stopped me because my registration sticker was on the wrong side of the boat (port bow if you must know...)


Jay

#286819 - 05/16/17 03:07 PM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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And to Jake's hesitancy regarding Kickstarter and other crowd-funding projects I share that caveat empor.... They're looking for "investors" who can get a discount when/if the product finally makes it to market.

I think a friend sent money to another campaign which was developing an ROV/drone which was supposed to follow you while filming (automatically). I don't think he ever saw the actual product.

And another crowd-source thing was that memorial fund set up for the victim of some horrible violence. The relatives of the victim said they never set up any sort of fund, so I wonder where all that money went.....


Jay

#286820 - 05/16/17 03:09 PM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: northsea junkie]  
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Originally Posted by northsea junkie
I'm very surprised by all this talk about USCG and other official requirements/ approval.


I agree a life vest does hamper my maneuverability in the water.. the few times I have been there with a capsized boat.. I would have been better with not having it... on the other hand if I was incapacitated I would be glad that it is on..

With regards to the USCG requirement... as I see it, it is all about "liability pass through." If I had a shop I wouldn't even think about selling a non-approved PFD...

There are also laws the require one be aboard the vessel for each person... you don't have to wear it, it just has to be there, unless you're under I believe 16, then it has to be worn. But like seat belts, why wouldn't you use it?

#286822 - 05/16/17 04:14 PM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 399
Mike Fahle Offline
enthusiast
Mike Fahle  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 399
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
They submit the order and take the money only if and when the campaign is fully funded. So far my credit card has not been charged. As far as the exchange rate goes, that will always apply and this offer provides a savings simply due to a lower cost which is the reward for helping them get it to market.

I used to have a buoyancy harness a long time ago (early 80s maybe - Hobie heydays - and pretty sure it was CG approved) and I always wanted another one when it wore out but by then they were out of production and I never found another one until this. It was very convenient and based on the provided info it looks like they have put a lot of effort into developing a very nice harness that also helps keep you afloat. I rarely race trapeze beach cats anymore and even then most organizers do not look at the life jacket other than to see if it is on if required. Mostly I use my Blade F-16 as my "cruising boat" and often sail alone so this will be just right for my purposes. Sailing the Flying Phantom 18 requires a buoyancy / protective vest (also not CG approved) so I know that is enough flotation for me.

I understand if the amount of flotation is a deal breaker for you but I posted this only so that people know about the offer, not so that they have to defend their decision not to take it, too. If it helps someone else and if it helps get these to the market then all is good. Also, if someone else made one that was CG approved then I might prefer it but that is not an option. As Jake pointed out, it almost seems as if the CG does all they can to discourage life jacket approval by making the process onerous and expensive (I am pretty sure there was a 60 minutes segment on this years ago and still no change). My old harness is getting pretty worn anyway and by donning this new harness I will be getting a better, more comfortable one and automatically be adding flotation. Everyone has a different situation and you should do what works best for you. At least now you know about another option. Sail on!

#286825 - 05/18/17 10:03 AM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
Joined: Jun 2001
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Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,221
South Carolina
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
And to Jake's hesitancy regarding Kickstarter and other crowd-funding projects I share that caveat empor.... They're looking for "investors" who can get a discount when/if the product finally makes it to market.

I think a friend sent money to another campaign which was developing an ROV/drone which was supposed to follow you while filming (automatically). I don't think he ever saw the actual product.

And another crowd-source thing was that memorial fund set up for the victim of some horrible violence. The relatives of the victim said they never set up any sort of fund, so I wonder where all that money went.....


My last kickstarter was for a cool flip-flop concept where you put them in the oven to warm them up (to a reasonable still touchable temperature) and put your feet into them bearing your full weight to form the soles to your feet. No break in period! They had about a year's worth of delay (actually more than a year) and got everybody's addresses and orders screwed up...couple that with the fact that people tend to move around after 1.5 years, their bulk deliveries from china got lost on a train in the US, turns out you had to heat them up hot enough to get burned so they included socks to wear while molding them, and then, the day I got mine, they sent out a notification to everyone to NOT PUT THEM IN THE OVEN because it softens the glue and they fall apart in a week or two - just wear them and they'll break in. sick lol.

I actually felt sorry for the folks trying to deliver that product. They were clearly over their head in several aspects of that project.

Last edited by Jake; 05/18/17 10:05 AM.

Jake Kohl
#286827 - 05/18/17 12:08 PM Re: New buoyancy harness [Re: Jake]  
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Posts: 5,515
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Naples, FL
I think you're right Jake... Many items I've seen in the Kickstarter/crowd funding segment are either not fully thought-out or have not been able to get funding through more traditional means... That makes me think that if the lenders/venture capitalists saw something that made them shy away from the group it might mean I should as well.

Not that the concepts weren't awesome... It's usually the management/oversight team and/or the logistics/development process.


Jay


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