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#29392 - 02/23/04 01:00 PM Re: Tornado Plans [Re: Tornado]  
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MauganN20 Offline
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hypothetical situation,

if my new boat were not registered as an x class and I did race it and win and WAS protested, I wouldn't even bother. I'd hand over the trophy, shake the guy's hand and make mention that he obviously cared more about the shiney hardware than I did. I'd be happy if all I walked away from the entire ordeal was a sun tan and a tshirt.

different strokes, different folks.

-- Have You Seen This? --
#29393 - 02/23/04 06:52 PM Re: Tornado Plans [Re: phill]  
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shoom Offline
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shoom  Offline
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Perth, Western Australia
no worries phil, I can understand you would be busy from the goings on of your site!

I myself am thinking of starting on a blade later in the year.. its about time Perth got another class other than hobies and windrushes!

#29394 - 02/23/04 11:13 PM What happened to sportsmanship? [Re: MauganN20]  
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samevans Offline
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Tad, you are missing the point.

ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing 2001-2004

BASIC PRINCIPLE
SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty or retire.

PART 1 - FUNDAMENTAL RULES
1. SAFETY
2. FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play.
A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated.
A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat's series score.

What you are talking about is CHEATING and hoping you don't get caught or that the real winner doesn't protest.
It is not about some $10 trophy.
It is about fair competition and the "thrill of victory".
Forcing the true winner to file a protest and go though a hearing, tarnishes their victory.

And not just the real winner, what if there were ten boats and you finished fifth?
Those boats that finished behind you have just as much right to a fair score as the first place boat

If all you wanted was a tan and a t-shirt, why wouldn't you register properly?

#29395 - 02/24/04 12:11 AM Re: Tornado Plans [Re: MauganN20]  
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Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
Maugan,

I agree with you totaly. At a club level and low key regatta I am not that bothered with protesting (Unless somebody did somthing very wrong intentionaly.

Come the Regattas that count, I will come out all guns blazing if there is an infringment.

Although, to show good sportsmanship, in any race I would compete in in those circumstances I would fill out on the sign off sheet that I intend to retire. Will keep everybody happy.


#29396 - 02/24/04 08:05 AM Re: What happened to sportsmanship? [Re: samevans]  
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sam, wait a second, who says I'm cheating?

I plan on racing open class distance races (PN). If I have an adjusted PN number and all my equipment is out in the open, how is it cheating?

Like I said before, I have no interests in competing within the tornado class, I just like the boat.

#29397 - 02/24/04 08:19 PM Re: that is not what you said before [Re: MauganN20]  
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samevans Offline
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You said "if my new boat were not registered as an x class and I did race it and win and WAS protested".
That is not "open class distance races (PN). If I have an adjusted PN number".

Just because "all my equipment is out in the open," doesn't mean that anyone else there knows what equipment is Class legal on your boat.
And can someone see that your hulls are carbon and not the Class legal material.

How is registering a non-Class legal Tornado, as a Class legal Tornado, and beating the Class legal boats, NOT cheating?
It is a lighter, faster boat which gives you an unfair advantage.

The most important rule about racing is sportsmanship and fairness.
We are expected to be honorable and self-policing.

#29398 - 02/25/04 12:34 AM Re: What happened to sportsmanship? [Re: MauganN20]  
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Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
I don't know how you do things in the US but in OZ if I registed for the regatta in a boat like this, I would not register as a Tornado. May be Custom Tornado or Carbon Tornado.

This will declair to everybody what you have and the race committe can decide on a suitable handicap.

This would keep everybody happy. I would like to think that nobody would ban a boat like this from racing (other than maybe important Tornado Regattas) Most would like to see the carbon monster in full flight.


#29399 - 02/25/04 08:03 AM Re: What happened to sportsmanship? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE]  
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Alive's got it, I'd never register it as a bone stock tornado! Thats what I meant as "out in the open" sam. I'd never deceive anyone about what was keeping me above sea level.

Believe me I don't want to upset other people about this. Before I enter any race I'll clarify with the committee or the sponsor or whoever I need to about how to participate fairly.

If it takes X's on my hull transoms then.... why not.

#29400 - 02/25/04 08:07 AM Re: What happened to sportsmanship? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE]  
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BRoberts Offline
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BRoberts  Offline
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S. Florida
Hey Guys,
Slow down a minute. We need alot more facts and not so much fanticy. Marstrom built a or some Tornados that weighed 100 or so pounds less than a standard Tornado and raced them in the Texel race. A standard weight Tornado won the race.
The M20 has raced in the Texel race for several years. The M20 is 130 pounds lighter in weight than a Tornado. The M20 also has a more efficient sailplan, higher aspect ratio boards and rudders, carbon mast etc, all the best. This year the M20 won the Texel race by 10 seconds over a standard Tornado. In a two hour race, that is a tie; no significant difference in boat speed.
Here's my experience with lightweight boats. In light winds a light weight boat will tiptoe away from heavier boats. Weight determines drag and lighter weight means less drag everything else being equal, a lighter boat is faster in light winds than heavier boats. Now when the wind picks up and people start getting out on the trapeze, the advantage of the light weight boat goes away. The greater righting moment and sail thrust from the heavier boats can compensate for their greater weight and things even out. In double trap conditions, I see heavier boats beating lighter weight boats; everything else being equal.
Someone really interested in this lightweight Tornado needs to get the straight story from Mastrom. Lighter isn't always faster, especially in top speed.
Bill

#29401 - 02/25/04 08:22 AM Re: What happened to sportsmanship? [Re: BRoberts]  
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MauganN20 Offline
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Bill,

The thing about this boat I'm buying is that its not significantly lighter than a standard M tornado. The builder says that the hulls weight almost the same to the M, but the beams and mast weight less, how much, he's not sure. The real advantage of the design is no striker, and rounded beam ends so when heeling, they don't drag in the water. Oh, and just like a pirate is completely obsessed with treasure, I'm complete obsessed with carbon/kevlar, so its a good match for me

#29402 - 02/25/04 08:38 AM Re: What happened to sportsmanship? [Re: BRoberts]  
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alutz Offline
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Switzerland
Dear Bill

I agree with what you say!
Just a little correction, if you refer to the texel race last year, the M20 lost by 10 seconds to the standard tornado and even worse, there was a other tornado with about 1-2 minutes leed on the other two (M20 and Standard Tornado), but they got a dsc, because the went over the startline to early. Not only this, they also capsized in the surf when returning from the finish.

Anyway, the M20 is a superfast and beautiful boat and I belive that the results from last year, reflect more the skills of the crews, as the conditions were quite moderate (3-4 Bft).

Good sailing!
Andi


Andi, Switzerland
Team OST
#29403 - 02/27/04 12:33 PM Re: What happened to sportsmanship? [Re: MauganN20]  
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Tornado Offline
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Vancouver, BC
Hey Maughan17, seems to me you've been in the process of "buying" this tornado for many months now...what's the deal here?

Beam ends dragging in the water? Hmm, I think you'd have to have the boat beyond 60 degrees of incline before the beam ends were causing drag in the water on a tornado. At that point, the heel of the boat is causing you way more lost performance and any drag from the beams.

Mike.
Quote

The real advantage of the design is no striker, and rounded beam ends so when heeling, they don't drag in the water.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
#29404 - 02/29/04 09:00 PM Re: What happened to sportsmanship? [Re: Tornado]  
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MauganN20 Offline
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tornado:

The reason I'm waiting is twofold:

a) just graduated from college, and paying off my debts there first.

b) I don't have a place where I can keep it yet, and I need to build a trailer for it.

c) sorry for the hold up, didn't know I was under pressure.

#29405 - 03/01/04 11:37 AM Re: What happened to sportsmanship? [Re: MauganN20]  
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Tornado Offline
old hand
Tornado  Offline
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Vancouver, BC
No pressure...was just curious...

Do you have an arrangement with the seller so that he doesn't sell to anothr person while you get the funds together?


Mike.
Quote
tornado:

The reason I'm waiting is twofold:

a) just graduated from college, and paying off my debts there first.

b) I don't have a place where I can keep it yet, and I need to build a trailer for it.

c) sorry for the hold up, didn't know I was under pressure.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
#29406 - 03/01/04 01:23 PM Re: What happened to sportsmanship? [Re: Tornado]  
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MauganN20 Offline
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Not really. He's got two tornados for sale, the carbon one and a 95 marstrom. Like so many have pointed out, its more than likely that a buyer would pickup the marstrom before the carbon one anyways.

Basically the arrangment is "I'll buy it from you definitely when I can and no later than this summer" :P

He's an incredibly cool guy that understands my position, and for that I'm very grateful.

#29407 - 03/02/04 12:11 AM Re: What happened to sportsmanship? [Re: alutz]  
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Edmund Offline
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Edmund  Offline
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Manila, Philippines
Hey Andy, I like the picture of your boat. What kind of boat is it?
Cheers,
Edmund

#29408 - 03/02/04 11:44 AM Picture [Re: Edmund]  
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Posts: 267
alutz Offline
enthusiast
alutz  Offline
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Posts: 267
Switzerland
Hi Edmund

thanks for the interest!

It's a Ventilo HT18, a F18HT Class boat.
[Linked Image]

The boat is uni rigged like a A-Class Catamaran, but for a crew of two and with gennacker!

If you want to know more, drop me a email!
a.lutz@ bst.ch


Andi, Switzerland
Team OST
#29409 - 03/06/04 11:17 AM Re: Tornado Plans [Re: phill]  
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

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West coast of Norway
Hi Phill

Spring has finally come, and I have gotten the measurements for you.

Length of pole: 4000 mm

Distance from main beam to bow: 2960 mm

Distance from tip of mid pole snuffer to main beam: 2100 mm

Distance between C/L of hulls: 2610 mm

I did some quick measurements of the stays as well, and it looks like the stays will not be taught when the pole is retracted. It definately looks like it will work!


Rolf

#29410 - 03/10/04 07:04 PM Re: Tornado Plans [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]  
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cat_scratch_fever Offline
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Mr ROberts,

Your allegations that an M20 is not faster than the new Tornado are wrong. Did you see the results of the ISAF Evaluation event? The M20 won every race, I believe, and by large margins, over the world's best offerings of cats suitable for the Olympics. Lightweight is critical. Allows tighter tacking angles, better acceleration, faster downwind speeds, etc etc. A designer of your experience should know this. Tisk tisk

#29411 - 03/11/04 08:24 AM Re: Tornado Plans [Re: cat_scratch_fever]  
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MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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oh no.



Poor noob doesn't know what he just resurrected.

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