Lots of comments on limits to sail area. Just to examine specifics, the Mystere 4.3 website compares STOCK boat specs.

http://mystereowners.org/mystere/43specs.html

Now Mr. Bob, would you share the specs for your new H14 Maxi square top main and "Blaster" furling headsail, please? This is a combo that seems to work (from my point of view 300 yards behind you). We might gain some insight from your successful experimentation.

Say, wouldn't your first set of rules for sail area (160 sq ft) have ruled out your own boat? (see attachment)

yes mr smarty pants...bobs maxi rig would have not fit the original rules.....the attempt was to start out slow and evolve the rules. Now, it seems best to open pandoras box, and see what comes out....So, as a challenge----instead of typing what ya do not like/ what ya like-----tell us what you intend on racing and when you will be on the start line. As for me...I will be out in the April 3/4 regatta in Ocean Springs Mississippi...with a h14 with way more sails................so, shut up and show up.tr

Sheesh, Terry, take your Prozac and lighten up. What did I say that seemed hostile or negative? I've raced against Bob's boat and was impressed and have said so several times. I was serious that Bob can offer us a professional sail designer’s guidance by telling us his about successful sail plan.

And it DOES seem odd that his first suggested rules would ban his own successful design.

You need to go sailing or kick your dog or something.

yea david, your right.....guess i was somewhat hostile and negative...my appologies...and actually, if we all think about it...the mast height will settle down (ie the As are unlimited and have all gotten within 6" of each other which works for that boat)....the super light weight boats will prob not hold up over the long run.....the sail area will settle down to what is managable, the max width will prob be back in the under 8' range....and if I was goin to spend 8 to 15k on a boat---Id prob just get an A.....so, once again...my appologies....lets just have fun...oh by the way...yes im in laka sailing DTs, and i do not own a dog.........terry

I hope nobody thinks I was asking for an "unlimited" sail plan. I like Mike Fahle's 150/150 proposal, and I agree with Terry's assertion that the rigs will likely move toward something similar over time (in my business, that's called convergent evolution). I think, though, that some of that process has already happened, and we should take advantage.

The only reson I proposed the 4.3 as the ouside of the box to begin with is that people are buying this inexpensive boat and racing it single handed without major modifications, though tweaks are encouraged. The Hobie 14 on the other hand, is something that has been purchased and overhauled/modified with a new squaretop and screecher to make it more fun, though not "class legal." I imagined the Formula 14 class would give that modification some creedance and viability.

"Unlimited" isn't much of a formula, but it's a place to start. I'd prefer the 150/150 rule, but I'm looking forward to being in the class instead of just outside it.

What a beautiful picture of the H14 "Maxi". It would be neat to see some H16 cross-beams installed to widen the boat some, and maybe some little trapezing racks?

So far... I'm waiting until Summer to build any boat. I'll gather up parts until then but here is my plan:

A pair of stressed-ply/fiberglass hulls. I still have the Quattro 14 plans coming, but am hoping the Blade 14 plans will become available before I begin building. Whatever I use, I'm going to cant them.

8' or 8'6" beams. Either salvaged off a P16 wreck on the beach, or from one of several broken mast sections that have been offered to me for this project.

24' mast. I like the old "10' longer than the boat" rule-of-thumb for beach cats. This seems to work well and I don't want a sky-high mast. Again, I'm hoping I'll be able to use a salvaged cut-down mast section from another boat.

Boom- highly likely I'll just use a salvaged H14 mast section and gooseneck. I'll run the main loose-footed and try to use something in the sail-trac for an outhaul.

Rudders- complete system salvaged off a TheMightyHobie18, but I'll need to buy new fiberglass blades and maybe extend the tiller if I go for the widest beam.

Sails- I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to afford new sails without selling my G-Cat to fund them...
However, I'd like to get a mainsail with as much sail area as possible without going to a gaff-rig I want to keep as much drive as possible after rolling up the headsail.
Speaking of headsails... I'd first like to try a giant roller-furling jib on a pole. Not a reacher but an actual jib- a headsail with use upwind. I'm unsure of whether to bring it aft of the mast or make it self-tacking. I'll do a lot of talking with sailmakers and racers before really deciding what to do up front. I definately want only one headsail.

So from what I'm seeing is folks are suggesting some limit on mast height and sail area. I tried 25 years ago a hobie 16 rig on the 14. That tall mast and huge mainsail sure looked fast and in theory should have been. But, mother physics came to play and all the boat could do was fly a hull and pitchpole! I'm gathering all this info for a vote on Thursday. It appears a max sailarea of 300 including m-j-sp or reacher and a 24'6" mast might be best. From my experience the taller the the mast and larger offwind headsail is not necessarily the fast way. The larger main and jib, especially the jib, worked the best. Also, the beam ideally will be under 8' but why limit someone's creativity? I would like to finalize and put some rules for our beginning on Saturday, Feb 14 so the tinkerers and others can begin modifying their boats for races beginning in April. Is there interest to show up at the Spring Fever as a class and score the M4.3s within and have this big class showing? It would also be easier to calculate a p/n for open class sailing.

Your thoughts everyone??

Bob

Just for everyones' info.

My 14 with sqtop and big reacher has a combined sailarea of 246sqft. This would allow me a 54sqft jib to make 300.

Bob

I think Nigel could be prevailed upon for that - start the F14s and other small boats together, split out scoring for whatever you want within that start. We had five or six 4.3s last year, so there's a F14 class start and trophies right there. Get Terry up for it and bring your Max... who else would be an F14? I sent the registration notice to the 4.3 class this past weekend - I'll drop Mr. Ernie an e-mail and let him know we're going to try and have this F14 thing, too.

Yehaw - three more weekends of race committee and I get to sail again!!!

Bob,

I think a 300 sqft limit sounds like a good starting point...although I still have visions of a mast head chute and the boat riding bow high like a skiff!

I also agree that the boats will probably come to a width under 8' - if you had a 14' boat that's 10' wide it would pitchpole Loooooong before a hull lifted off the water.

Sounds like a great start - I can't wait to join you (but it will be a while for me).

Please don't limit beam. I'm begging. I'm being nice, which is very hard for me. The beam is the only way to get enough horsepower to escape an expensive complex compound curve hull shape, and be able to spend the money on innovations to overcome pitching, instead.

I am with David...no beam limit...if someone wants to put up with assembling/disassembling their boat or trailering it on a tilt trailer let them.

But remember David, that a 14' cat with 8'-6" beam is an equal ratio to Bill Roberts 20' X 12' Supercat. That is Beam would be = to 60% of the length. Already a healthy beam if the non-US sailors don't try and gnaw away at it to meet their highway trailering limits. They could always build theirs to 2.5 meters instead...many sailors are already talking about making theirs less than 8’. Let everyone have what they want…choices…a good thing.

Just like the mast height/sail size…it will shake it self out…If someone shows up with a 10’ wide boat and it does little to add to the on the water performance they will narrow up the beam just to make trailering easier.…Two cuts with a chop saw, drill four holes, remove the panel they put in to expand the tramp...and whala...back to trailerable width in an afternoon...no harm, no foul....

Outside of a specifically “home built” designs, or a SC 15 with a foot loped off of the stern, I don’t see too many boats having any advantage to going beyond 8’-6” beam, they don’t have enough volume in the bows to handle it…but if they want to try, why stop them? With small Frankenstein boats that are easily, and relatively inexpensively modified, we might finally be able to put some actual evidence behind the theories we endlessly argue here on the forum…

Bob

Want to re-iterate the rigging time criteria of 20 minutes. This stops unmarketable, enthusiasm sapping boats being developed. It is good for the sport, and a worthwhile engineering challenge. No equipment needed to check. You qualify when you set up, if someone challenges you. What you think? (people under 100lb and over 300lb get an extra five minutes)

Not in 20, or even 25 minutes. Not with the snuffer, the beer cooler, the spin up, back to the beer cooler, snuff the spin while spraying with sailkote, back to the beer cooler, fool with the radio, up with the jib, trip to the garbage with empties, hey where'd all my beer go?

Seriously, I've never timed myself, but that would be a tough criteria for me to meet.

David,

Who would regulate the 20 minute rigging time at the regatta site? Like John, I like to take my time and throw back a couple when rigging. Lord have mercy on me - for safety's sake on the water, I don't need to try and do this under the gun. And even then, what's to stop me from mounting a pneumatic mast stepping modulator on top of my RV giving me an unfair rigging advantage?

Hi Dav -Hi Jake

may just sail to the regtta site ?

It should be a fun class ,and great fun to experiment a little with design ideas and concepts added.

The 18 sq meter class ,a few decades old with class specs.and rules of 18 ft L 193 sq ft sail -no min weight ,-and no max beam -,-was the only one with unlimited beam .

What some of the builders discovered in that size range was a point of diminishing returns . The added stress on the crossbeam -its connection ,-dolphin striker assembley - etc all had to be reinforced and extra weight added with increased beam .
Also the narrower beam cat designs generall 10 to 11 ft that flew a hull earlier were at a distict advantage in the mid range windspeed conditions the vast majority of races are held in as they flew a hull as the wide beams sat both hulls in being heavier to boot.
That places the 14 ft 8,5 beam spec in similar length to beam ratio ranges as the 18 sq s .
-Also ,as Phyc earlier noted ,-calculate the volume in the hull forward of the crossbeam { forces forward in downwind mode} as compared to the wide beam leverage and full volume and sailing forces in {upwind mode] --again a point of diminishing returns ,-a large rig and sailplan simply submerge the bows sooner ,evan though wide beam will carry it upwind.
The only option is a much lower total rig C E sail plan solution ,--2 masts per 60 parlier with larger beam to L ratio ,-but a whole series of other related problems like mast moment ,-racking stresses ,-rigging ,--taCking -gIbing the headsail etc become a problem .
cat ,http://www.parlier.org/site02/accueil/1024x768.html

The option of a lifting sailplan with lots of luff angle in extreme mast rake or like a lateen rig {sunfish } type main may potentially reduce the sail forces forwrd .
For the headsail an extended spin pole way ahead of bows for spin luff angle and lift ,--but then CE to CLR -balance and helm control becomes the main problem ,

A very wide flat planning type hull and bow sections are another solution ,-hull shapes could resemble a flat bottom skiff that has uniform hull width and no compound curves ,-it just uses a flat bottom radius forward of mid hull up to deck level at the bow ,--what could be easier to build from ply wd.
Just wanted to draw you out a little in the concept of a wide beam F-14 -beyond 8.6
Sounds like an interesting design , suggest a model first ,
best regards

Not every time!
Be like weighing in. If there is an objection, the committee can time you. Beats weighing in etc, an is a valid criteria which ensures the appeal of sailing. Most people I know that didnt like sailing stated "it is too much work".
The "safety issue" is pretty lame. Usually you forget something because you got sidetracked and missed a step. (I can here it now -"It wasn't the six beers, it was the six distractions")
Actually, I'm up on the vectors and moments. I just want to be able to do my thing, and have a fertile imagination. Once again, if beam is not a solution to speed, why worry about limiting it? Stay with the mission statement of the class.
"To boldly go where no man has gone before, and bring the family"

David I was all for standing with you when you wanted unlimited beam...but this 20 min thing is out there.
Remember, this class is all about "fun." Setting up under the gun sounds a lot like work and very little like "fun" to me...just another rule to get bogged down in....Let it go...LOL

Bob

The pneumatic mast stepping modulator??? You wouldn't DARE!

Whaaatt? Got a problem with it!? Be careful because I might just "blow up the Earth".