A beautiful day in Fort Walton Beach! 70s with 8-10kt breeze. Spring is here!!! Of course I was out sailing!

Bob

Satdy in Sydney was 80F+ with 15/20 knots from the S.W. on the river, just enough to ruffle the water a tad and of course I also was out sailing or honkin' to be more accurate
Modesty prevents me from revealing who won our club race
Bern

G'day Bern mate,

What sorta boat ya sailin there?

Rob.

Mate, it's my own boat, one I designed, built and raced successfully from '98 to 2001 and again this season. It's quick, points and tacks like a mono and is a pussy to sail. I originally built it as a one design to further the 14ft cat cause (and make a dollar) but sadly no one was interested.
Some details;
Peter Skews Shipwright Services (lay-up)
Designer/builder: Bern Leslie (me)
Length: 14ft nom. / 4.3m [LWL]
Beam: 7ft.10in / 2.4m (max. Aus)
Displacement: 107lbs / 75kg
Sail area: main: 145sqft / 13.5sqm
Spinnaker: TBA
Mast Height: 24ft 7ins. / 7.5m
Construction materials:
Hull; Hand laid moulded Epoxy / ‘E’glass / carbon foam sandwich vacuum bagged.
Mast and front beam; 50x120mm chemically milled alum.
Sail; Chris Cairns high aspect Mylar.
Controls: 6:1 mainsheet, 5:1 outhaul, 6:1 downhaul, 2:1 mast spanner, single trapeze.
Thanks for your interest,
Bern

Thanks for the info Bern,

I'm a little surprised at the displacement. I would have thought that a 14' single handed cat (I'm assuming it's single handed) would be a fair bit lighter that 75kg. After all this is the min weight for the 18' A-class.

Why has the boat ended up this weight? I'm not knocking your boat by the way, just wondering.

Rob.

107lbs is not 75kg

165lbs is 75kg

107lbs is about 49kg

So how much does the 430 weigh, and is displacement the same as weight?

Sorry guys, 107lbs is a misprint, it should read 165lbs or 75kg. Yes that's true, an 'A' min. wt. is 75kg and they are very light for an 18 but also a bit delicate or were when I did the 430 in 97/98. They also cost a shirtload more than $11,000. They can all be made lighter but the exercise of reducing weight has an accompanying exponential increase in cost. The 430/F14 was designed for the average decent sailor to replace the very tough (and very heavy) 120kg/260lb+ Hobies, Maricats, and Windrushs etc. and in that regard it was/is a giant step forward for a production boat. The second boat was sub. 70kg and the class rules could easily be changed to accommodate a 60kg min but the cost factor has to be considered.
Bottom line is, no one was prepared to pay the $$$$ for the boat @ 75kg and a 60kg boat would have been significantly more expensive. I think what cat people want here in Oz is a technically superior boat, weighing 50kg, which beats current 14's by half and hour over two hours, doesn't pitchpole forwards and backwards, points like a mono, tacks easily, looks great, would comfortably carry a kite and is completely bullet proof but costs $1500/$2000 on a trailer. Not possible.
Bern

Hi Bern, the 430 looks great! Our wants in the US are not different for those in OZ. We want the best possible technology at the price of a [1960s design] Hobie 14 that weighs way more. In fact, I'd like to offer you $1500 Australian dollars right now for your 430, haha. If you fit it with a carbon fiber mast before shipping it to me then you can keep the trailer.

and I'll pay the freight.
Thanks for your comments, you've nailed it in one. It still hurts a bit but I have learned to laugh about it mostly . As was said somewhere else on the forum, it costs only marginally more to produce a 16ft boat which makes the 14ftr a rather expensive proposition. The big advantages though with a 14 are, they are easy to load on and off the trailer, easy to tow, rig, launch and retrieve, can be sailed comfortably in 20k of wind with confidence 'one up', and you don't need a crew to help, making sailing a more enjoyable, 'one person' exercise.
Anyway, thanks again and good luck for the season.
Oh and mate please don't hold your breath waiting for the 430 to arrive in Cal.
bern

Oh and one other thing I'd like to mention. The Hobie tiger (18ft) weighs 397 lbs. or 172.3kg. Sure it carries a heady and a kite but that's still a lot of weight for an 18ftr compared with an'A' but they are still popular.
I may have sounded a bit dark in my reply to the boats weight but after a 2 year design and build program and somewhere around $100G costs and getting no interest I'm just a tad sensitive I guess.
Sorry if I came accross a bit strongly.
Bern

No need to apologize about the tone of your reply. As I said I wasn't critising, just asking the question from a position of ignorance. It must be extremely frustrating to put your heart and funds into a project only to find that it goes nowhere.

As for the F18's, I'm still at a loss as to why the minimum weight for these boats is set so high. Surely given a choice the sailors of these boats would prefer something lighter. It is possible of course, you only need to look at the Taipan 5.7 which is about 50kg lighter, about the same price and just as rugged.

Rob.

I'm not giving any pointers on boat design as both You and Darryl seems very capable at that as are several of the otehrs on this forum as well.

No, I'm refering to the way to get a class going. From this I can quote from experience.

A good design does not sell itself and small lightweight classes need to work extremely hard at getting themselfs accepted before moving on the actually selling boats.

A second consideration is the fact that a class needs to set herself a clearly defined goal (as Bill Roberts mentioned in the beginning) and make that one stick. Simply stating as a goal to advance 14 foot sailing catamarans will not work (not stick). There is nothing special about 14 foot. That element alone will not appeal to a broader sailing public. "Good for kids !" For years now kids have started on 16 foot boats, so not an argument for 14 ft. "Easy to singlehanded !" I know a lot of sailors swearing by their 15,16 and 18 foot singlehanders. "It is a very fast for its length !" and still slower than a well designed 16, 18 and 20 footer. "It is much cheaper than the others !" After all the goodies have been added (Hooter, carbo mast, Harken blocks etc) it will be marginally less expensive than a 16 or 18 footer. The issue is not the amount of glass or resin used as well all know but labour time and fittings. The last two are remarkably independent on overall hull length. So the F14 may loose the jib ? Saves about 600 US or Euro bucks = about 6 % or less on the total. Especially after adding the dealor margins and promo expenses any design comes out much higher than initially projected. Excetere excetera. A design will not sell itself, remember that always.

Harsh comments I know but important to realize just the same.

The goals should reflect at what the class aims to achieve and should fully run with that. No new boats over 8000 bucks. Ultimate youth cat for 7 to 15 year olds. True development class. Each of these three examples excluded the other examples. One can not have a succesful youth class and a development class at the same time. Nor can one have an inexpensive class and a development class. It is also difficult to be the ultimate youth class and limits costs significantly; Ultimate implies high investments. It is the same with any other goals. Some may be run parrallel by most will not.

Than when the goals are set work extremely hard at building the class and getting the idea accepted in a broader sense for about 3 years. After this time you will know wether the class will survive or not. This is a lot of work that somebody or a group of somebodies has to do and fully commit to for at least this length of time. Without such a group you have a remote chance of succeeding if not to say a very remote chance.

Again I'm not dissing anybody here, these are just my personal experiences and experiences of others of both succesful and unsuccesful classes. As examples I refer to Jim Boyer of APHC and his Taipan 14 comments and now also to Bern Leslie and his experiences. Also note the F18, F18HT and F20 classes in the USA. No matter how good the designs are/were, the final "decision" was fully determined by class considerations. Notice how Taipan sales revived after F16 formation, it was still the same design. Work out why one class succeeded were another one didn't. Please note that all started their efforts at about the same time with exactly the same sailor scene. Some with unlimited finances other with hardly a budget at all.

Don't count on selling many boats in the first years. Building the class in these stages will be a lot of work for remarkably few returns if any at all. After this period you still need to have enough motivation to complete the second halve with enthousiasm. Any takers. I would hope so as some other classes have succesfully negociated this ground so you can do so too !

Another thing is image. You don't sell many sports cars by advertising that one can drive one of these comfortably with confidence. This argument sends out the wrong message. It is not responsible parents that buy sport cars but the more adventurous, maybe even a bit reckless, individuals. Words like "comfortably" and "with confidence" do not appeal to the last group. (again we come at the class goal here. Responsible youth class or mean 14 ft speed machine ?) Therefor these comments will not build the class nor sell many boats. Without the last the class will not survive not will somebody be willing to spend 3 years of his or her spare time in the class to get things going.

Also realize that 14 footers are way out of the mindset of typical catamaran sailors. These are considered kiddies boats, slow and plastic. It is possible to turn this around, no-one thinks of F16's in this way any more even though they did in the beginning, however it requires a lot effort and continious proving oneself inside the class framework of stated goals. Not to mention giving it time to sink in. Being 75 kg in weight adds another dimension, "is it fragile ?". It took the A-cat class and F16 class several years to convince people that that is more determined by design skills than overall weight.

And when you think you got the whole thing described above down than you need to work twice as hard at getting things going behind the scene; Attracting builders, work-out supply networks, starting up brother classes in other area's, making dealors interested in the class, getting them to support it or even to promote it. Kick out the occasional 5th colomist/saboteur (you will have 1 or 2 of them). Support the newbies with endless questions and even longer e-mails. And loose a few hundred bop (of personal investment) a year on these efforts, miss out on alot of time on the water, all with a very small chance of recovering that. Any takers ? Why not ? Others have gone before you; it can be done and will be done again in the future. Question is will it be done by you ?


>>Oh and mate please don't hold your breath waiting for the 430 to arrive in Cal.
bern

With due respect but I don;t think anyone is holding his breath till the F14 class gets together, forms a die-hard core of leaders, promoters and class builders and survives its first 18 months including a second quiet winter time. And customers know that, expect them to wait it out at least this time. And if you fail at making a convincing argument after this then they will not sign on the dotted line even though they will have shown great interest time and time again. Drafting a rule set is only a very small part of the whole project, it is merely a modest beginning. And one of the more enjoyable activities as well when compared to the other, more laborious, required activities.

Regards,

Wouter

The builders of the F18 class; made a balance between what they want, the customer wants and with what they could get away with.

It is just like video players : VHS or Phillips 2000. The latter is still be beter one even after 15 years of no development and 15 years of VHS development. However Sony played the better PR-customer game and achieve critical mass much sooner. Customer wanted availability of films more than they wanted quality.

In some respects boats are different but still the F18 is big and the Taipan 5.7 is, well, on its way out. I think the F18 achieved 3 times the number of Taipan 5.7 in the short 2001-2003 timeframe. Especially on the T5.7 home turf of AUS. Something went terribly wrong with the Taipan 5.7 class setup as indeed the boat is fine.

I say learn from it and make sure that the F14 doesn't fall in the same trap.

Wouter

Okay Bern, I won't hold my breath waiting. Boat looks great and I'm sure it's a blast to sail. Not much understanding of sailing, let alone cat sailing where I live. If I were to tote it around here I'd get the same response as I do with my Taipan: "Nice hobie, dude."

Thanks Wouter, I think? Great response.
Mate you have an uncanny insight into promotion, such that I suspect you probably have special skills in that area.

There's no doubt that my 14ft project was a 'heart' thing and not a 'head' thing. I wish I had spoken to someone like you prior to starting the venture, though I probably would have gone ahead and done it anyway. I had raced 14's for years with considerable success and had the idea that given they were already a popular class here in Oz, it seemed logical (to me) that a nice new high tech boat would be a welcome advance and a necessary injection of enthusiasm to further development of the class but in reality the guys and gals were all quite happy sailing 50's and 60's technology, as they still are. I had mistakenly assessed the cat sailor. I had the impression that like his mono counterpart he would welcome the opportunity to put his son/daughter on a decent boat, at a regatta where 14ftrs were given the credibility of a separate course racing a hyped GP series (banners, 'T' shirts, some decent prize money etc. etc). I was wrong. Most of them are having sufficient difficulty maintaining their own campaign to be much concerned. Sad but true though considering the cost I should not have been surprised, but again, I reasoned that the mono dad sees no problem putting his offspring on a Bethwaite 29'R which are not cheap, however there are also lots of kids sailing Lasers and the like so it's really a question of numbers I guess.

Yep it seems that it's a shirtload of work, more than I have the capacity for I'm sad to say. I took two years off work and spent squillians to build, campaign and promote the boat. I would have been gee'd by any sincere interest at all in any department but alas everyone I met showed a distinct disinterest and in some cases people were demonstrably hostile toward the boat/concept. I guess it threatened the status Quo in some circles. Mostly, I was totally blown away by the ambivalence. I needed help, I couldn't do it all on my own but alas, none was forthcoming.
Anyway it's all history now and I'm resigned to the fact that I have done the best I'm capable of or interested in doing frankly and the thought of battling with those same people over production schedules, defects, delivery dates, etc etc., does little for my sense of calm which I've developed in my 'tender' years .

I still get great satisfaction winning the club championship and wupping all other 14's, most 15's and some 16's. Sailing a 14ft performance cat off the wire amongst a fleet of cats & monos is something to be experienced and I get to do it every Satdy.

I do hope F14 gets going, I'm not sure exactly why but it probably goes to credibility for me maybe. Certainly it would mean more competition which is always good. I am concerned however that notwithstanding the experience I have had, there are two more 14ft boats being built/designed here in Australia which will further fragment an already somewhat tragic over supply situation so I don't see things getting any better for manufacturers here in the near future. Oh well!
Bern

I have always found it a little coincidental that the F18 parameters are almost exactly that of the "Hobie Tiger", which came before the F18 not visa versa, and that the Hobie Tiger was very instrumental in "getting the F18 off the ground" (bless their little hearts), in fact, when I take a long good look at the hulls of a tiger, I see all the "old" Hobie 18 lines and shape simply converted to the changes that naturally occure when you move from "female hull and deck moulding, joined at the gunwale" to a "split moulding process? Strange that the weight of the tiger is virtually that of the Hobie 18! They say that the weight of the F18 is to keep the "excessive cost" of "exotic's" out of the class, and to keep the overal package within the reach of more sailors? With the minimum weight of the F18 as heigh as it is, it would be relatively simple to reduce the layup weights of the F18 hulls quite dramatically without any detriment to strength, AND by not incorporating any "exotics atall. THE WEIGHT OF THE F18'S IS MUCH HIGHER THAN IT NEEDS TO BE, and still fulfill all of it's proclaimed criteria.
Hell Berny, I'm not building F14' & F61's to become "mister popular" or to make a million bucks from the exercise, I'm building them to see my own designs on the water and doing what I designed them to do. I don't really care if I only put a half a dozen of them on the water, (and I will do that even if I have to give away 5 of the 6 to achieve it - one is for me). There will always be 14' cats sailing, at least for as long as I'm alive, why they are sailed, who sails them, what their worth, (and what they cost) don't realy matter to me, I just want to enjoy them while they're here and so am I.
Darryl J Barrett.

Berny, why one class "takes off" and another doesn't has always been one of sailing life's "great misteries. We can look back at designs that were highly successful, in all respects ie numbers sold perfomance etc, as say, "yes I can see with hind sight why that worked, similarly we can look back at one that didn't and say the same, BUT there are many, many, many designs of both mono and multi hulls that no one can say why THEY either succeeded or why THEY failed. Success with boats can be simply put - It is and always will be a "black art" that I defy any one to work out definatively
Darryl J Barrett.

Please accept my order for one of the five 'givaways' Darryl. I'll be happy to campaign it on the east coast for you.
Bern

Darryl,

I suspect you'll have no trouble getting rid of the give aways. I'll even take one up here in Far North Queensland if you like and sail it in between sailing my Taipan 4.9.

I think that a high performance 14 foot cat would be great for the experienced youngsters that are moving out of Sabots and looking for a challenge and some speed. An appealing alternative to the 29er.

Rob.

Hum, seems that we have a case of rewritten history here.


>>I have always found it a little coincidental that the F18 parameters are almost exactly that of the "Hobie Tiger",

I think the phrase here is : "It is fully logical that the specs of the Tiger are exactly those of the F18"

reason : mattia, Diam, Alado (2 French and one Italian Builders) started the F18 class to better compete with the established cat builders like Hobie and Nacra. The Dart hawk (Yves Loday, Reg White) was just out and joined. I think Oliver Bovin coined the idea (current F18 chairman)

Later when it became clear that F18 was becomming a serious class and a thread to Hobie and Nacra products, both builders launched an F18 of their own. Nacra attracted Melvin and Morelli to design the Inter-18. Hobie approach the Alado yard and bough the platform design of them.

Therefor the F18 was before the Tiger (although the original Alado F18 was there at the beginning) and the Tiger was fully made to the F18 specs and not the other way around.


>>which came before the F18 not visa versa, and that the Hobie Tiger was very instrumental in "getting the F18 off the ground" (bless their little hearts)


Well, yes, that is another example of Hobie speak. They were neither the first, the second, the third or even the Forth boat in the F18 class. They were well down the list and nor did they design it themselfs; they bought it off one of the founders of the class.

Hobie being instrumental in getting the F18 of the ground ? It is true that Hobie Tiger make up a large portion of the F18's world wide although not the majority and that Hobie has accellerated the F18 growth in say US. However, it is safe to say that F18 had already proven to succeed with or without Hobie getting involved, so that is how instrumental they were.

The succes of the F18 class is just that, the F18 class itself; the boats were the means they used to achieve that.
The beauty of the F18's was the realisation that they got win a decisive edge by promoting an idea and a concept. The formula concept. A concept that was large idenpendent on the actual design and therefor easier and cheaper for a small builder to make into a succes. Of course it wasn't formulated this clearly in the beginning but with advancing insight they continued strengthing this notion and grow the class. It was so powerful that it quickly killed of the very succesful Hobie 18 and Nacra 5.5 classes (as much overweight as the F18)

There is a joke that illustrates exactly what happened.

An American and Japanese business men has gone on safari after concluding a bilateral trade negociation.
The guide encourage both business to get out of the car and get a proper feel for the landscape and wildlive outside.
Both do so and they make a stroll around the savanah. Suddenly they both spot a lion taking a eye at both of them. They
both quickly realize that they are in danger. They both run for their lives with the lion in persuit. A few seconds in the run the Japanese business man makes a sharp turn to the left and runs for the jeep. "What are you doing ?" yells the American. The Japenese guy replies :"getting my Nike sport trainers". "Why, you never going to out run a lion, with or without sport trainers", the American yells back. The Japanese business man replies calmly :"No, indeed, not the lion, but I may just out run you"

And that reflects the approach taken by the F18.


Wouter