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Re: Grow up [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #31443
03/23/04 06:38 AM
03/23/04 06:38 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 170
Australia (Queensland)
Berthos Offline
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Berthos  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 170
Australia (Queensland)
Darryl,

I enjoyed reading your excellent response to my post and must admit that I did miss the fact that you were referring to BASING the class on homebuilt boats. I suspect that you are right about the unlikelyhood of this if for no other reason than there are not enough sailors with the time to build boats.

Rob.

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Re: Grow up [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #31444
03/23/04 10:18 AM
03/23/04 10:18 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Bradenton, FL
Sycho15 Offline
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Sycho15  Offline
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Bradenton, FL
Quote
Brian what's the point (history lesson) that you are trying to make using Clark Mills as an example? I would have thought that Clark Mills would have made the point that I stated even more so?


His Optimist and Windmill designs were both free of charge, and are some of the most successful sailboat designs ever.

Quote
Look Brian, I admire your enthusiasm, and the last thing that I would want to do, would be to discourage some one from "getting out there" and testing their own ideas. If you feel that you can make an impact with your own cat/s, go for it at 100 miles an hour, and don't let any one tell you otherwise.
Darryl J Barrett


Thanks Darryl, I really enjoyed your posts concerning homebuilt plywood construction. That is sort of where I was going with my post about having available free plans for a cat that would be competitive with what's currently racing. I think there are a lot of kids out there with a lot more time than money who would be willing and able to spend a summer stitching together a boat, and retrofitting the rig from something else onto it.

The part that gets me, are the sails. There should be a cheaper method to go about getting a decent set of sails. Some sort of pattern that could be posted so people could cut and sew their own Dacron and have some sails that perform well enough.


G-Cat 5.7M #583 (sail # currently 100) in Bradenton, FL Hobie 14T
Re: Grow up [Re: Sycho15] #31445
03/23/04 06:29 PM
03/23/04 06:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline
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Darryl_Barrett  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Brian, there is no real "black art" to designing and making sails, I know a lot of sailors that have successfully made (and some still make) their own sails, it just seems that the majority of sailors either "can't be bothered and will pay the price" or think that it is all just to hard. If you purchase one of the books by C.A.Marchaj "sailing theory and practice, in it you will find all the reasons how and why a sail performs and once there is an understanding of that, it's then quite a simple matter of applying those principals to the relative size/shape of the sail plan that you need and draw out. Once youv'e done that, any man/woman who can use a sewing machine is more than capable of stitching a one off sail together (even on an electric "home" sewing machine). From actually doing it quite a few times personally, I can tell you that, it is a LOT cheaper than a sail maker, and that the hardest part of it was actually convincing myself to start the first cut. After the first one, the rest are easy.
You know that before the introduction of Mylor and Kevlar etc, into sail making, many top sailors in class's around the world would either make their own sails or make then in a sail loft with the help of a "professional" who would be only to pleased to assist them as the professional would use that cut for the "class" if it was successul. Most sail makers realise the the people who know their class sail performence best are the top sailors in that class and use their knowledge instead of visa versa.
Darryl J Barrett

Re: Grow up [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #31446
03/24/04 11:55 AM
03/24/04 11:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Bradenton, FL
Sycho15 Offline
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Sycho15  Offline
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Bradenton, FL
Darryl- thanks for the post. I'll pick up a copy of that book and do some more reading. I would really like to see the F14 class be the cheapest way to get in some real great racing. As you've mentioned, it's the the planning and designing stages that put most people off. I'd like to get all the planning and designing done and make the results free to everyone- to make the class that much more attractive. Take the sails for instance: if I came up with a set of sails that performed well enough to race with, I could make all the measurements public, and provide plans for the sails, for the cost of printing and shipping. Basically- I want to take all the guesswork out of this sort of thing.

The Paper Tiger class is a popular class on boats that are only marginal performers by todays standards. I want to design a modern "Paper Tiger". A better compromise between performance, cost and "easy-construction". I'm not out to make the fastest boat in the fleet, just the best value in Fun-per-Dollar terms.


G-Cat 5.7M #583 (sail # currently 100) in Bradenton, FL Hobie 14T
Re: Grow up [Re: Sycho15] #31447
03/24/04 06:48 PM
03/24/04 06:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
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Berny  Offline
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Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Brian, don't sell the Paper Tiger short, you could do a lot worse. They really are a great little boat and have been developed to perform as well as most uni-rigged 14ftrs and I'm sure they could easily carry a kite as they have quite bouyant bows. Their 'yardstick' number here is #92 as opposed to the H14 which is #93.

The boat can quite easily be built in ply which was the basis for it's design and because they are raced in Oz, NZ and Africa they have the basis of an international class which could be an added advantage to owning one ie, they could be raced with the kite as F14 and as a PT without the kite. Could be interesting.

http://users.fishinternet.com.au/~nswptca/clubs/KoBSC/
Bern
p.s. another link; http://www.papertigercatamaran.org/

Last edited by Berny; 03/24/04 06:53 PM.
Re: Do it yourself Sail making [Re: Sycho15] #31448
03/29/04 11:17 PM
03/29/04 11:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Mike Fahle  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Hi Brian, I used to read boat building articles in Popular Science magazine many years ago when I had a subscription so I do not know if they still publish those.... but when they did, they had plans available including for the sails that were made out of plastic tarpaulins for a very low cost; so check that source out. Another source for do-it-yourself sailmaking is Sail Rite at: http://www.sailrite.com/ and their sail kits at: http://www.sailrite.com/sailkitpricing.htm

Good luck!

Mike

Last edited by Mike Fahle; 03/29/04 11:43 PM.
Re: Grow up [Re: Sycho15] #31449
03/30/04 07:12 AM
03/30/04 07:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline
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phill  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
Brian,
I made my own sails for around 20 years.
It's no big deal. Horizontal cut dacron sails are the easiest.
The radial cuts are usually designed and plotted with computer although this is not essential. They can be lofted by hand but there is more work involved.
When I first started I modified a domestic machine and drove it with two motors in series while I located an affordable industrial machine.

Once you get a good understanding of how the dynamics of the sail works it is a lot of fun. Designing, making and modifying and seeing the results.
This is just another aspect of what can be a really diverse
sport.
I must admit that I've finally given way to the pressures of time and no longer make my own sails. A good sailmaker can free up time to explore other aspects of the sport.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Grow up [Re: Berny] #31450
04/04/04 12:37 AM
04/04/04 12:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
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Berny  Offline
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Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Anyone keen on obtaining a set of building plans for the Paper Tiger should be aware that contact details can be obtained from www.papertigercatamaran.org. Price is aprox $80Aus.
Bern

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