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#33566 - 05/23/04 05:47 AM F16 One up .  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
stillbitten Offline
Pooh-Bah
stillbitten  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
Gippsland Lakes Victoria Aust...
Does anybody know if there is a F16 designed to be sailed one up.Seems to me all that is needed is a shorter A class with slightly fatter hulls.All the F16 designs I have seen have enough volume in the back half to support two adults.Creating more drag than is neccesary or why would A class be so slim. Also do any F16 have canted hulls, I have had problems with my rudder ventilating on a number of occasions when flying a hull and trying to change direction, seems the rudder doesnt like travelling through the water at an angle.
Gary.


Regards Gary.
Mosquito 1830
All opions expressed in this post are mine and mine alone, no assumptions should be made regarding any Associations or Clubs I may be a member of.
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#33567 - 05/23/04 01:56 PM Re: F16 One up . [Re: stillbitten]  
Joined: Mar 2003
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George_Malloch Offline
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George_Malloch  Offline
member

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 131
Scotland
Not aware of any designed specifically as single-handers only.

Later model Stealths have canted hulls - these are the "Stealth F16" ones. I do know of one of the earlier boats that has been converted so that it now has canted hulls. I haven't sailed it so I can't compare it to the uncanted hulls on my boat (that particular boat also has had T-foils added to the rudders by the owner).

G


Stealth www.peyc.org.uk
#33568 - 05/28/04 08:16 PM Re: F16 One up . [Re: stillbitten]  
Joined: Apr 2002
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Berthos Offline
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Berthos  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 170
Australia (Queensland)
All the F16s around at the moment seem to be very capable single handers. I have sailed a Taipan 4.9 single handed for a couple of years and found it to be excellent. I did not sail it with a spinnaker though.

Rob.

#33569 - 05/29/04 04:14 AM Re: F16 One up . [Re: stillbitten]  
Joined: Jun 2001
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Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Gary,

As an Australian you are probably very aware of most things I write in this reply however I will put them down anyway.

>>Does anybody know if there is a F16 designed to be sailed one up.

I know that both Blade F16 was designed to function as an optimal compromise between a singlehander and doublehander. Phill, as a regular singlehanded sailor, has put alot of effort in this. The base was a doublehander of course but it had to be and fell like a proper singlehander as well. I don't really understand how Phill went about this but I'm aware that he is very happy with how it sails in both modes. The few test sailors having sailed the Blade in singlehanded mode were no different in their appreciation. I do know it has alot to do with the shape to the keel line. At a time it was feared that the doublehanded setup would suffer as she behaved very well in singlehanded mode, however this was later debunked. The Blade has a very wide range of crew weights easily running all the way up to 165 kg combined crewweight, which is alot for a 16 footer.

I understand that the Taipan 4.9 is a good singlehander with a good doublehanded mode till about 140 kg of combined crew weight. Of course its hulls mirror 90's generation A-cat hulls with a tornado style stern. I think it's singlehanded performance is reflective of this (when sailed without a spi).

The Stealth F16 was designed as a doublehander from the beginning and some sailor prefer to have a special singlehanding mainsail made for the mast. Apparently the doublehander has a quite powerfull main. Having said this, I think about halve of the Stealths sold are almost exclusively sailed as singlehander. The jib kits function there to transfer the boat into a doublehander when occasionally taking somebody along.

I think the boat most designed from a singlehander setup is the Bimare 16 or javelin 16 but we haven't heard much of these lately and even the Bim owner in my area has sold her bim. So now we have no active Bim F16 sailors in our class.
The Bim 16 however fits the same describtion as the Taipan as a 90's generation A-cat hull design. The javelin 16 is too unknown for judgement however its hulls appear to be the same 90's generation A-cat hull shape but with a trimmed foredeck and stern. I'm not sure this is an improvement over the standard hullshape. A wave piercer hull needs to be redesigned from the bottom up and is completely different from any old hull shape.

The Australian yard of Alpha-Omega is looking into the F16 class and I don't know yet the specs of their design although I hear that they are looking to make it full carbon construction without raising the price much. It will be a feat to see that one.


>>Seems to me all that is needed is a shorter A class with slightly fatter hulls.All the F16 designs I have seen have enough volume in the back half to support two adults. Creating more drag than is neccesary or why would A class be so slim.


to this I would like to reply that one doesn't reduce drag much at all by making the back of the hulls more narrow. Problem is that the wetted surface area isn't much impressed by that. To much volume in the hulls can lead to a singlehander that doesn't have a pleasent behaviour in waves and that may degrade performance but I don't think the named boats suffer much if at all from that.


>>Also do any F16 have canted hulls,

Stealth F16 = Yes
Blade F16 - Taipan - Bim = No

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/29/04 04:17 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#33570 - 06/23/04 05:27 PM Re: F16 One up . [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Darryn Offline
addict
Darryn  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
I sailed against a Mosquito with canted hulls a few years ago, the owner didn't seem to have any control problems as he sailed away from the fleet.

#33571 - 06/27/04 02:38 AM Re: F16 One up . [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
stillbitten Offline
Pooh-Bah
stillbitten  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
Gippsland Lakes Victoria Aust...
Hi All,
Well I have done it, bought a new boat no longer will I be able to join the mossie fleet. I purchased an A class the first prototype Boyer mark V.[flyer style hulls] carbon mast etc. But before you all tell me to get off the F16 forum the good news is I will be cutting its length to 5m. widening to 2.5m. shortening the mast and fitting a spinnaker. The ultimate single handed F16? We will have to just wait and see have been measuring up all day working out all the new bits I need etc. cant wait to get it in the water it will probably take a few months.Just in case anybody has seen the boat it is purple in colour and was originaly sailed by Glen Ashby. I think it will be called Altered .
Regards Gary.


Regards Gary.
Mosquito 1830
All opions expressed in this post are mine and mine alone, no assumptions should be made regarding any Associations or Clubs I may be a member of.
#33572 - 06/27/04 03:09 AM Re: F16 One up . [Re: stillbitten]  
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Darryn Offline
addict
Darryn  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Since it was the prototype what were the hulls made of? Whereabouts are you going to remove the length from? It seems like more work then starting from scratch, you must have got a smokin deal.

#33573 - 06/28/04 02:53 AM Re: F16 One up . [Re: stillbitten]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Hi Gary,
Sad to see you leave the Mozzie fleet, I`m sure they will miss you.
Good luck with what sounds like a very exciting project. One question : If you`re shortening an A-class, I`d assume you`d be reducing it`s weight. I`d then assume the boat, all-up incl spinnaker kit, would weigh no more than 80-85kg at most. How are you going to find an extra 20kg to make F16 min. weight ?
Maybe get concrete daggerboards ?

Cheers
Steve

#33574 - 06/28/04 06:16 AM Re: F16 One up . [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
stillbitten Offline
Pooh-Bah
stillbitten  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
Gippsland Lakes Victoria Aust...
Hi Steve,
Gee Wizz I hadn't thought of concrete dagger boards thanks for the suggestion. Seriously part of the reason the boat was for sale is that it is a bit heavy for A-class. It has been sailing A-class at around 80kg. Also by the time I cut and shut the hulls and reinforce the outside of the front half of the hulls and the beam mounts, reinforce the mast to take the spinnaker etc. I think the boat will be hopefully OK. Actualy speaking of weight I think I still owe you a reply about how OZ mossies get so light. I don't know of anything specific, everything is made light but strong hulls are generaly 55kg some needing lead. Masts are fairly light and so are most of the fittings, booms are mostly small sections with the track cut off they do bend a bit but are strong enough. Centre boards and rudders are lite mostly fibre glass moulded with a foam core, rudder boxes and arms are tube aluminium. No big secrets I can think of, you just need to start with light hulls and keep everything to a minimum after that.Don't worry I will still be around the mossies. I just couldn't pass up this opportunity to have a go at taking on all other cats upwind and downwind before I get to old and look back thinking if only I had given it a go.
Regards Gary.


Regards Gary.
Mosquito 1830
All opions expressed in this post are mine and mine alone, no assumptions should be made regarding any Associations or Clubs I may be a member of.
#33575 - 06/28/04 08:34 AM Re: F16 One up . [Re: stillbitten]  
Joined: Nov 2002
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Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Hi Gary,
Sounds like a big undertaking, if you`re cutting the transoms shorter, you might have to move the centreboard cases & front beam to balance the boat. I`m sure you`ll work out the best way to do it. Keep us posted on the progress, ie take pics!!
On the Mozzie weight subject, I weighed my boom, main & jib in it`s sailbag & was horrified to find it`s 15kg, the bag can`t weigh 1kg, so just the sails are quite heavy, bloody mylar !! At least it lasts a while though. I`ll have to look elsewhere for a weight reduction. My blades & boards are very light, blades are obeche timber (like balsa) with 1 layer cloth & epoxy, the rudders are obeche with carbon skin. Stocks are as per the Auzzie stocks, with a fibreglass rod as connector arm.
Don`t know if I can reduce weight by much. I think if Tim weighed his boat in sloop configuration with spinnaker kit he`d find much the same as us, within 5kg or so. I could be wrong, maybe he can enlighten me (no pun intended !)
Cheers
Steve

#33576 - 06/29/04 05:57 AM Re: F16 One up . [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
stillbitten Offline
Pooh-Bah
stillbitten  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
Gippsland Lakes Victoria Aust...
Hi Steve,
Surprisingly it would appear that the centreboards beams etc. are in aprox. the right positions.As I am taking about 8" of the back of the boat and about 11" of the front, [overall F16 length 5m. is actualy almost 16'5"]this takes the least volume out of the hulls, the bows will be fuller than A-class and have a round rather than a knife edge stem. This leaves the boat with the front beam further back than a mossie [more bow has to be good?]then the centre boards are further back than a mossie to. Currently as a A-class the mast has quite a bit of rake so even if I have to put a longer boom on to fit F16 sail area. I have room to stand the mast more upright to balance up the weatherhelm. In theory it all looks good. In fact I have worked out a formula, I am sure some math brain can give me the values for. Aclass-L+W-M/H+Sm2=F16 As for pictures I will have to wait till Tim gets back from holidays to use his digital camera.
Regards
Gary.


Regards Gary.
Mosquito 1830
All opions expressed in this post are mine and mine alone, no assumptions should be made regarding any Associations or Clubs I may be a member of.
#33577 - 07/18/04 06:01 AM Re: F16 One up . [Re: stillbitten]  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
Tim_Mozzie Offline
old hand
Tim_Mozzie  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Here are some photos of Gary's new F16.

These are some bits he doesn't need -
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

and here is the man himself shaping a new bow -

[Linked Image]


Tim


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
Karma Cat
#33578 - 07/18/04 05:19 PM Re: F16 One up . [Re: Tim_Mozzie]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 244
TonyJ Offline
enthusiast
TonyJ  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 244
Central Coast NSW Australia
Excellent Gary

Just what the doctor ordered. Another F16 on the water soon.

By the looks of what your doing you may be forced to eat that bag of corn pellets before we meet up again.

I fly out for the Dutch Coast Challange tomorrow, I'm very much looking forward to meeting the other starters and enjoying the hospitality.

Be safe

Tony Jenkins





Teach them how to think. Not what to think. Aus Blade 002
#33579 - 07/19/04 08:09 PM Re: F16 One up . [Re: TonyJ]  
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
Darryl_Barrett Offline
old hand
Darryl_Barrett  Offline
old hand

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Pretty "bow"! ugly "glasser"!! (he he he)

#33580 - 07/23/04 06:18 AM Re: F16 One up . [Re: stillbitten]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6
Pete_N Offline
stranger
Pete_N  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6
Hi everyone,
Some time ago, I got tired of seeing the cats fly by my 20ft monohull and rented school cat to check it out.
In spite it was just an old newcat14, I really got bitten by this cat thing and I now NEED to buy one.
I've looked arroud and, as I am by nature a solo sailor, I've narrowed the choice to F16HPuni or A Cat.
As I haven't sailed either yet, can someone drop me a line comparing these two cats?
What really puzzles me is that guy cutting the flyer into F16...
I know this is a F16 forum but eventhough I'd like to hear your side of the story .
Thanks in advance.

The best winds to you all.

#33581 - 07/23/04 12:12 PM Re: F16 One up . [Re: Pete_N]  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 29
Marc Woudenberg Offline
newbie
Marc Woudenberg  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 29
Netherlands
Hi Pete,

why don't you check out the F16HP website at http://www.geocities.com/F16HPclass/ then go to the articles section and select Comparative F16 HP 1-up performance analysis.

I did the same checksum and ordered a T49 las year. No regrets whatsoever.

Good luck and wishdom


Marc Woudenberg
T49/F16 Ned302
#33582 - 07/24/04 06:31 AM Re: F16 One up . [Re: Pete_N]  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
Tim_Mozzie Offline
old hand
Tim_Mozzie  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Hi Pete

It's the spinnaker that makes the difference! In the Mosquito's we have discovered how a spinnaker transforms a cat, and that's why Gary wants a chopped-up A-class with a spinnaker rather than a pure A-class without. Time will tell, but he is gambling that the converted A-class will be faster around the course than the original (not to mention a lot more fun downwind ).

Tim


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
Karma Cat
#33583 - 07/25/04 04:08 AM Re: F16 One up . [Re: Pete_N]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
stillbitten Offline
Pooh-Bah
stillbitten  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
Gippsland Lakes Victoria Aust...
Hi Pete,
your not the first person to think I am crazy.
But on the subject of cutting a A class into a F16, it realy came back to my need for a spinnaker, I can no longer imagine sailing without one. Sailing the mossie with spin. gave me a look at the front of the fleet, but I needed more upwind speed the A classes strongest point. In OZ their are no A's sailing with spin. around the reggattas that I have seen, but there is the start of a F16 fleet.
I couldn't find a F16 in OZ at a suitable price to fit my purpose [one up incorporating flyer type hull shape.] so a second hand A class seemed like a viable option as I have done alot of fibreglass work on my boats over the years.

You probably still think I am crazy cutting up a perfectly good boat but my need to test my theory's and new callenges were to strong.
Regards Gary.http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif


Regards Gary.
Mosquito 1830
All opions expressed in this post are mine and mine alone, no assumptions should be made regarding any Associations or Clubs I may be a member of.
#33584 - 07/26/04 05:59 AM Re: F16 One up . [Re: stillbitten]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6
Pete_N Offline
stranger
Pete_N  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6
Thanks for hints guys,
"by the numbers" the comparison is very close, I guess the spi really makes the diference bringing that extra rush.
I'll have to try and test-drive them both to get the feel.
And Gary, don't get me wrong... I'm 100% with you.
A man has to do what a man has to do,right?! Thatīs also what I'm doing...
Keep us posted on your advances.

Pete



#33585 - 07/26/04 06:42 PM Re: F16 One up . [Re: stillbitten]  
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
Darryl_Barrett Offline
old hand
Darryl_Barrett  Offline
old hand

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
It will never work while it's "PURPLE" Get your priorities right lad! If it don't look right it aint right!
Change it to something nice like purple with nice broad vertical stripes of pale green and pink????? (I think I have to be sick now)

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