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Summer Sizzler Results #35395
07/13/04 05:59 AM
07/13/04 05:59 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 129
Clearwater, FL
JenniferL Offline OP
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JenniferL  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 129
Clearwater, FL
Here are the results from the Gaulden Reed Summer Sizzler held last weekend in Daytona Beach, Florida. Summer Sizzler Results Based on the results from this regatta and the Jetty Park Ocean Regatta last month, I'll bet you that the US portsmouth numbers for the F16HP will be lowered.

Does anyone have a status report on the Blade? It sure would be nice to see more F16HP's on the race course.

Next US F16HP Event: St Augustine Regatta, July 31 & Aug 1

Jennifer
Taipan 4.9/F16HP #262

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Re: Summer Sizzler Results [Re: JenniferL] #35396
07/13/04 06:28 AM
07/13/04 06:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 129
Clearwater, FL
JenniferL Offline OP
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JenniferL  Offline OP
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Posts: 129
Clearwater, FL
Here are the results from the Jetty Park Ocean Regatta. The F16HP's raced the F18's boat for boat. The F18 is clearly faster than the F16HP from my experience and I was only lucky to win the regatta because Mark Murray was over the line early on two starts.

Overall Skipper Sail # Class Race 1 Race 2 Race 3 Race 4 Race 5
1 Jennifer Lindsay 262 F16 2 2 1 3 6
2 Mark Murray 324 F18 DNS 1 DNS 1 1
3 Chuck Harnden 189 F16 3 4 2 2 3
4 Scott Hubel 964 F18 4 3 3 4 2
5 Chris Runge 24 F18 1 5 4 5 4
6 Seth Stern 221 F16 5 6 5 6 5

Jennifer
Taipan 4.9/F16HP #262

Re: Summer Sizzler Results [Re: JenniferL] #35397
07/13/04 10:37 AM
07/13/04 10:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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>>The F16HP's raced the F18's boat for boat. The F18 is clearly faster than the F16HP from my experience

Interesting.

Where is the loss located on the course. Mainly Upwind, Mainly downwind or on both ?

Lets see how this ties in with the experiences of the Aussies

Wouter





Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Are the JPOR results with data online some where ? [Re: Wouter] #35398
07/13/04 10:41 AM
07/13/04 10:41 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Are the JPOR results with data online some where ?

If you know where can you point me to them ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Summer Sizzler Results [Re: JenniferL] #35399
07/13/04 11:11 AM
07/13/04 11:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
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Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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>>Results Based on the results from this regatta and the Jetty Park Ocean Regatta last month, I'll bet you that the US portsmouth numbers for the F16HP will be lowered.

Congratulations on your succes (You and Kelly Gray) in the Gaulden Reed Summer Sizzler.

So the honeymoon with regard to PN ratings is over, ehh ? It was expected that it would end at some time.

I'm trying to read the data comming with the results.

Am I correct in reading that you hung with the Shafers on their Tiger F18 pretty well. Same with the Hubels, also on a Tiger ?

Or am I reading the data incorrectly ?


>>Does anyone have a status report on the Blade? It sure would be nice to see more F16HP's on the race course.

I can tell you that work on the EU Blade is nerve racking. The usual problems with shippers and suppliers; but the DCC is now closing in really fast. Haven't been to occupied with the US Blade lately as I had some private stuff and the EU Blade to waste all my time on. I'm quite curious to know myself as well. Matt seemed to have everything under control (Hope his crates with masts didn't go through the sequence of hick-ups as the EU one). I'll mail him and ask him about it. Unless he reads the psot of Jennifer first and replies to that. Can tell you that Stealth marine is experiencing a small surge in orders. He is fully booked till halve oktober. Just delivered a boat to the netherlands and will deliver the next on 24 july 2004, right before the DCC. Anyway, that is all EU. Something similar would be nice for the US yes.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Summer Sizzler Results [Re: Wouter] #35400
07/13/04 01:36 PM
07/13/04 01:36 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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ejpoulsen  Offline
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My experience (F16 uni)--F18s sail away from me upwind but similar speed downwind. May be sailor skill too.


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
You have put a bit of a problem to me here .. [Re: ejpoulsen] #35401
07/13/04 05:35 PM
07/13/04 05:35 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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You have put a bit of a problem to me here.

The aussies reported just the OPPOSITE.

No worries upwind, got an edge there.

Trailing a little bit on the downwinds.

Now the spi's were new to the Aussies so that could explain the downwind part experiences.

However I can't level the two different upwind experiences with eachother.

Thanks for the info though Eric.

We must stay on top of this

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: You have put a bit of a problem to me here .. [Re: Wouter] #35402
07/13/04 06:03 PM
07/13/04 06:03 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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ejpoulsen  Offline
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I'm talking uni rigged--sloop may be a different story; as you know the Taipan has a big jib and a lot more power upwind with it. Mind you, I have kept with Tigers upwind sailing sloop with crew. But there's no question that sailing F16 UNI I'm losing the Tigers upwind and hanging with them downwind. This may also be due to sailing skill--there's a lot of area for improvement in my technique.

A note on the rating--the Hobie 20s and Nacra 5.8s are gettin irritated when we cross the line even with or ahead of them and then they owe us time...This weekend, a H20 sailor asked ME how much time I owed him. I guess the honeymoon is over.


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: You have put a bit of a problem to me here .. [Re: Wouter] #35403
07/13/04 06:26 PM
07/13/04 06:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 129
Clearwater, FL
JenniferL Offline OP
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JenniferL  Offline OP
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Posts: 129
Clearwater, FL
Most of the sail I have been doing is in light winds, under 15 mph. I generally lose ground to the F18s upwind but can keep up off the wind under spinnaker. There was a race a few months ago where I was racing in a mixed fleet which included a Hobie Tiger and an I20. Memorial Weekend Regatta The winds were mostly under 10 mph however there was a terrible chop on the water from numerous power boats in the area. I could not make the boat go up wind at all as each wave caused the boat to hobbie horse terribly. The Tiger and I20 being longer and heavier seemed to be able to drive through it and make better time up wind. In flatter water, we may have done better. I know in the drifting conditions at the 2003 Spring Fever Regatta at Lake Hartwell, we started the same time as the F18 fleet and we were generally near the front of the F18 fleet. On the one day we had wind (15 to 20 mph) we were at the back of the fleet.

Speed comparisons between the F18 and F16HP are difficult because they are so dependent on the skills of all the sailors involved. My performance tends to drop off as the wind increases but this may be partly due to crew weight. My crew and I are only 285 lbs so we are on the light side. As the wind approaches 20 mph, racing becomes more of a challange to make it around the course then one of being first to the finish line.

In regards to the times from the JPOR, I don't think there were any times as the race committee only recorded the order in which boats crossed the finish line in the F18/F16HP fleet.

Just my thoughts.

Jennifer

US Sailing Ratings [Re: JenniferL] #35404
07/13/04 06:38 PM
07/13/04 06:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 129
Clearwater, FL
JenniferL Offline OP
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JenniferL  Offline OP
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Posts: 129
Clearwater, FL
US Sailing just issued their 2004 Portsmouth Ratings last month and the F16HP sloop rating remained unchanged at 66.9. This is a sweet number but I can't image it remaining that way forever. The F18 rating is currently 62.5 so if the F16HP truely is as fast as the F18, we can expect a number in the same range in the future.

Jennifer

Can you give me some details [Re: ejpoulsen] #35405
07/13/04 06:42 PM
07/13/04 06:42 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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>>I'm talking uni rigged--sloop may be a different story

Yes good point.

Can you give me some more details.

Were you running with the standard Goodall main or the Ashby F16 main. (The Ashby is the full sized F16 mainsail right?)

can you give a rough estimate on what you are losing upwind in either boatlengths, seconds or whatever you think is the best unit of measure ?


>>as you know the Taipan has a big jib and a lot more power upwind with it.

True, the comment is that the uni-rigged Taipan is slightly slower upwind unless the course is short or is run in sub double trapezing conditions. With increasing winds it loses a bit when the doublehander can double trap upwind.

what were the winds you were sailing in ?

>>Mind you, I have kept with Tigers upwind sailing sloop with crew.

Okay, thanks

>>But there's no question that sailing F16 UNI I'm losing the Tigers upwind and hanging with them downwind. This may also be due to sailing skill--there's a lot of area for improvement in my technique.

One thing I hear from many Taipan sailors is that the boat doesn't really wants to go, when sailig carigged, with the main traveller centred ? Are you sailing upwind with the main traveller about 32 to 4 inches of centre ? The goodall main like to be oversheeted in addition as well. Kirt Simmons showed me that at Springfever 2002 and it did really make the boat point a couple of degrees higher. I would never oversheet the main on any other boat but it did work on the Taipan with the Goodall main when the maintraveller was off centre.


>>>A note on the rating--the Hobie 20s and Nacra 5.8s are gettin irritated when we cross the line even with or ahead of them and then they owe us time...

Ehh, what are they on about you're sailing a 16 footer while do 20's ??!!. Ganging up on the little guy ! (joke)


>>This weekend, a H20 sailor asked ME how much time I owed him. I guess the honeymoon is over.

Well, your standard reply should be. We requested a lower rating as a class but didn't get it; if he wants the rating to be more fair then he better make sure that the RC sends in the result to US sailing and Darlene Hobock.

With this our rating will drop as Jennifer is doing her thing on the east coast as well. At some time the rating must come down. Till that time enjoy the peachy rating we got.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: US Sailing Ratings [Re: JenniferL] #35406
07/13/04 07:09 PM
07/13/04 07:09 PM
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Posts: 9,582
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Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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>>US Sailing just issued their 2004 Portsmouth Ratings last month and the F16HP sloop rating remained unchanged at 66.9.

Yeah I saw that. It was the first thing I looked up after the F18 ratings. Tiger controversie was at its peak at that time !


>>This is a sweet number but I can't image it remaining that way forever.

It is really not fair to the other sailors. If anything a rating of 64,5 is minimal to be fairly rated. Even for a standard Taipan 4.9 with older cut spi. This is equavalent to 105 versus 102 (F18) under Texel. Now the F18's are sailed very well by now so their rating will be approaching the bottom level of the margin. But still we are underrated.


>>The F18 rating is currently 62.5 so if the F16HP truely is as fast as the F18, we can expect a number in the same range in the future.

I've been expecting it for some time but each year they remain unchanged. I know both Chuck and You have won a few events in the past so one would expect a drop.

However when looking at the JPOR results the imagine does look very balances. See my other post.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Can you give me some extra details as well ? [Re: JenniferL] #35407
07/13/04 07:26 PM
07/13/04 07:26 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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>>Most of the sail I have been doing is in light winds, under 15 mph. I generally lose ground to the F18s upwind but can keep up off the wind under spinnaker.

Sloop sailing or catrigged (both with spi) ?

I know that under special conditions the differences between boats do play up. Was this race doublehanded or singlehanded. Especially when singlehanding the Taipan become sensitive to certain chop.


>>Speed comparisons between the F18 and F16HP are difficult because they are so dependent on the skills of all the sailors involved.

Indeed and the F18 guys aren't getting slower as well. Looks like F18 sailing is doing well in the US by now with regular races with good turn-outs. This is bound to have good effect on the sailing skills of the F18 sailors.

This is one reason why I want to gether as much data as possible :

I used the JPOR data and found the following.

Here we had an equal number of F16's and F18's so I could count only the top 2 boats of each class and compare those with eachother this makes the result far less sensitive to an individual skill of a crew or luck. It is always far easier to have bad luck than good luck.

The result was this :

JPOR

1 F18 (Runge) F16 (Lindsay) F16 (Harnden) F18 (Hubel) F16 (Stern) F18 DNS (Murray)
2 F18 (Murray) F16 (Lindsay) F18 (Hubel) F16 (Harnden) F18 (Runge) F16 (Stern)
3 F16 (Lindsay) F16 (Harnden) F18 (Hubel) F18 (Runge) F16 (Stern) F18 DNS (Murray)
4 F18 (Murray) F16 (Harnden) F16 (Linday) F18 (Hubel) F18 (Runge) F16 (Stern)
5 F18 (Murray) F18 (Hubel) F16 (Harnden) F18 (Hubel) F16 (Stern) F16 (Lindsay)

Only listing the top 2 boats of each class :

1 F18 F16 F16 F18
2 F18 F16 F18 F16
3 F16 F16 F18 F18
4 F18 F16 F16 F18
5 F18 F18 F16 (*F18*) F16

Score F18 = (1 + 4) + (1 + 3) + (3 + 4) + (1 + 4) + (1 + 2) = 5 + 4 + 7 + 5 + 3 = 24
Score F16 = (2 + 3) + (2 + 4) + (1 + 2) + (2 + 3) + (3 + 5) = 5 + 6 + 3 + 5 + 8 = 27

The score is pretty even really; the spread is pretty much constantly changing as well.It is not like if there is a fixed pattern in it where it is always F18 F16 F18 F16 for example.

When not looking at any more info about this race than an observer would assume the two designs are pretty evenly match to eachother.


>>My performance tends to drop off as the wind increases but this may be partly due to crew weight

I hear you are very good in the light conditions; It seems to be your speciality. We all have one.


>>In regards to the times from the JPOR, I don't think there were any times as the race committee only recorded the order in which boats crossed the finish line in the F18/F16HP fleet.

From the final results it looked like this worked out well. Is there something that we don't see from the data. If any crew considered far superior to all others ?

By the way was Seth sailing singlehanded ? Any of the others singlehanding ?



Just my thoughts.

Jennifer


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: You have put a bit of a problem to me here .. [Re: ejpoulsen] #35408
07/13/04 09:43 PM
07/13/04 09:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline
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East Gippsland, Australia
Gary and myself have had the same problem with our F16 mozzies. When we beat a Hobie 20 to the windward mark they get all upset about the handicap - but they really need to look at the vast differences between the boats and wonder why they are going so slow.

Perceptions of generous handicaps are often only that. At the Kurnell Cat Club regatta in February I won my division against Taipan sloops and Nacra 5.8s and received the usual grumbles about handicaps. Afterwards I combined the results of the other divisions (who sailed the same course) which added Tornados, F18s and Nacra14sqs. Surprise surprise I ended up 8th overall! My best results were two 5th places out of the 30 boats. Suddenly the handicap doesn't look so bad.

It pays to look very closely at results before making decisions about handicaps, and like Jennifer said, the differences in abilities of the crews can really distort the picture. I wouldn't assume right away that the F16HP handicap has to change.

On the subject of F18 relative speeds, we have found that they are definitely faster than the Mozzies in strong winds and rough conditions, but more vulnerable when it's light. Once again it makes a big difference who is sailing the F18. A badly sailed F18 is very slow (even though it feels very fast for it's crew).

I think there is a problem here for the bigger cats when they race on handicap against slower cats. Even if they are performing badly the crew will always have the impression that they are travelling very fast, and unless they are well tuned in to how the boat SHOULD be performing, they can lose badly on handicap. It makes me chuckle when an A-class which is a leg and a half behind the leading A-class gets upset because a Mozzie goes past him (what does he expect?)!

Tim




Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
Karma Cat
skipper skill cannot be overstated [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #35409
07/14/04 12:29 AM
07/14/04 12:29 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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ejpoulsen  Offline
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Lots of good points Tim. This weekend I was passing A-cats that started 5 min ahead of me. But I'm certainly not under the illusion that my boat is faster, as the lead A-cats were done eating lunch by the time I got in. And only the other side of the coin, if I'm slow on a few tacks, all the sudden I'm getting beat to the mark by a Sea Spray.



Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: Can you give me some details [Re: Wouter] #35410
07/14/04 12:37 AM
07/14/04 12:37 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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ejpoulsen  Offline
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Ashby F16 main. It's not much bigger than the Goodall but is lighter and less stiff--"blades off" easier. I haven't tried cracking off the traveller. I probably should because one of my (many) flaws in sailing upwind cat-rigged is trying to pinch too much instead of footing off for more speed.


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Summer Sizzler Pictures [Re: JenniferL] #35411
07/22/04 05:37 AM
07/22/04 05:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 129
Clearwater, FL
JenniferL Offline OP
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JenniferL  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 129
Clearwater, FL
Pictures from the Summer Sizzler are up on Florida Multihull Sailor

Jennifer
Taipan 4.9 #262


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