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#36453 - 08/15/04 08:37 AM Re: What's the word on the Eagle 18 and 20 carbon? [Re: macca]  
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 284
BRoberts Offline
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BRoberts  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2003
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S. Florida
Hello Macca,
In the 1980s when SC20TRs were sailed by top caliber sailors, this boat was rated in the PN range of 62 to 60 when the Tornado was 64. This is US Sailing talking, not me. So there has already been a 20ft long production boat built that is faster than the Tornado.
My son and I took one of these old boats, an over weight one by 100 pounds, and put some new sails on it and won the 2003 Steeplechase race, 100 miles long, by 25 minutes over the second place boat and that included a turnover and righting on our part. There were Tornados and I20s in the race sailed by the top caliber sailors. At the time I designed the SC20,1976, I had never designed a boat before. I had 20 years sailing experience in monohulls. I had engineering degrees and all I knew were "those ratios". Those ratios worked back them and they still work today. If your effort to put together a boat faster than the Tornado is to succeed, you better check those ratios and see that your system exceeds the Tornado in "those ratios".
The M20 is definately tailored to the windward leeward race course and suffers on the close reach. Adding a small jib is very easy task. The Eagle 20 platform and rig may need no development at all. If the boat is designed and built by knowledgable and experienced people, they can hit the nail on the head first shot out of the box. I am willing to assume that this is the case until I hear otherwise. Winning the Texel race against the M20 and Tornado even by 1% says to me that the boat is at least equal to the best 20ft designs right now. I'm sure the Eagle 20 has some excellent "ratios".
Bill

-- Have You Seen This? --
#36454 - 08/16/04 07:48 PM Hi Bill What's the number now? [Re: BRoberts]  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,221
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,221
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
What's the sc20 tr number now and as it was raced in 2003 Steeplechase?
Just wonderin',
Todd


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
#36455 - 08/16/04 08:54 PM Re: What's the word on the Eagle 18 and 20 carbon? [Re: macca]  
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
Darryl_Barrett Offline
old hand
Darryl_Barrett  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Bill, Play station is not really a good example by anyones defination. In its original configuration "blind Freddy" could see that the mast step position was so far forward that there was always going to be "bow pressure" problems unless it only carried a "pocket handkerchief" as its sail power. It is still "relatively" far from its maximum potential fore and aft stability, even with the extra bow length that has been added due to the ratio of its mast step position relative to it's overall length. Using "play station" as a example will surely only confuse rather than clarify for sailors without the adequate knowledge to make their own "accurate" judgement.
Just a comment, not a criticism
Darryl

#36456 - 08/16/04 09:46 PM Re: Hi Bill What's the number now? [Re: Team_Cat_Fever]  
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BRoberts Offline
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BRoberts  Offline
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S. Florida
Hi Todd,
The 25 minute winning margin in the 2003 Steeplechase Race that I am talking about is in "elapsed time" boat to boat. This has nothing to do with PNs. The PN for the SC20TR today is incorrect in the US Sailing PN tables. Darline Hobock and I have an on going discussion about this. Present bookkeeping rules allow boats to get slower with time if that is what the recent data indicates. In the case of the SC20TRs I think it is old overweight boats and old sails and old sailors. I think the DPN without spinnaker should be 62 and add the spinnaker at a 0.96 factor and the adjusted DPN becomes 59.5. Today the DPN in US Sailing tables is 64.4 and adjusted for spinnaker becomes 61.8.
Bill





















#36457 - 08/18/04 08:54 AM Re: Well, ... [Re: Wouter]  
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BRoberts Offline
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BRoberts  Offline
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S. Florida
Wouter,
Where are you going and where are you coming from? You must have been drinking some strong stuff just before you wrote this recent post above.
> Where's this "commercial talk" you are talking about?
> Where did this "just can't sail right" comment come from?
> What is an AHPC rig, "a high perfornance cat" rig?
> Is a "Blast" a European catamaran? I have never heard of one if it is a boat.
> Talk about "commercial"; Sounds to me like you are trying hard to sell Taipans and put down Tigers and NACRAs and anything else you can think of. With all you know, why don't you design and build something of your own?
> Tornados have been "poping up" from bow underwater situations since they were first built. The bow is about twice as tall as the transom. This Tornado characteristic is displacement where it is needed. Taking 10 pounds of weight off the mast has the same effect on system inertia having a 160 pound skipper sit 1ft further forward from the rear beam.
> What is this "T boat that is smaller and shorter than all your boats"?
I designed a SC15, 15ft long, that went into production. Is this T boat a 14ft Twister? I have never heard of that such a boat.
> What are these "old rig and old technology" boats that you are talking about?
One could take a 1970 Tornado and add the spinnaker and larger mainsail and add the second trap and take 50 pounds out of the boat weight and have a 59 PN boat. These changes do not fall into the catagory of new technology. The Tornado is a 40 year old design. Spinnakers are probably 100 years old or more. Adding sail area is not new technology. There is nothing new about double trapeze. The Tornado is the dominate 20ft beach cat. Where's the new technology? None of these new super light weight 20fters has proven to be clearly faster than the Tornado. Where are all of these new breakthrough ideas since the 1970's? The H16 has been improved on but the H16 was never a performance design in the first place. The TheMightyHobie18 and P18 have been improved on but these boats were never performance boats in the first place. The unirig boat with spinnaker has come into place and that is because the shape of the race course changed from triangle to windward leeward. Put the close/beam reach back in the race course and the unirig boats are not competitive. There are some very experienced sailors that say the old Olympic race course without spinnaker is a much more challenging and difficult race than the windward leeward race with spinnaker. Adding the spinnaker and race windward leeward is a change but I,m not sure it is an improvement in sailing test ability.
Bill

#36458 - 08/18/04 04:45 PM No progress since 1970??? [Re: BRoberts]  
Joined: Jul 2001
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Hakan Frojdh Offline
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Hakan Frojdh  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
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North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
If there where no progress since 1970 how come no one uses a Unicorn A-cat to race with? Things change you know....

What kind of speed do we mean? Top speed, upwind/downwind race course or distance racing around islands?

The perfect round texel wind gives you little upwind/downwind sailing which means that the Uni rigged boats suffer. Is that the data we should use when comparing boats? The M18 won Texel once when there where bad texel conditions, only upwind/downwind in light winds. But we all know that the Tornado is faster. But in that Texel it was obvious for all that this was not a normal Texel race and it should not be used for speed comparision.

I don't agree that adding a triangle to the race course would make the M20 to loose against the Tornado. The M20 IS faster than the Tornado upwind and downwind but not when reaching. But will the speed differance in the reaching part of the added triangle be enough for the Tornado to get ahead, I don't think so.

The raced with two M20's in Lac le joux last weekend and both boats where 10 minutes ahead of the rest of the fleet. That included the new Ventilo (Uni), Tornado and some F20,F18 boats. The conditions wasn't heavy reaching, it was lighter winds and upwind/downwind.

/håkan

#36459 - 08/18/04 06:03 PM Re: What's the word on the Eagle 18 and 20 carbon? [Re: Darryl_Barrett]  
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 284
BRoberts Offline
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BRoberts  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 284
S. Florida
Hi Darryl,
I think Playstation is an excellent example of a boat that was initially designed and built without sufficient restoring moment and then after a near disaster, made a recovery. "Old Freddy" might have been blind at first but he got his eyes opened. The Playstation recovery was a major change to the boat's design and I'm sure it cost millions of dollars to fix and it should have never happened in the first place, but it did and at least the correct fixes were put in place.
Sailing in the Indian ocean at 30 knots is very different from fast sailing in the local lake at home. The lone ranger boat must have much safety margin at 30 knots especially when you are 1000 miles from the closest source of help.
In our little Mickey Mouse Speed Trials we can try configurations with little to no safety margin because if anything goes wrong, help is there in a second. On those around the world boats help is there in a matter of days in the worst case. Pitchpole is a subtle thing up until the moment of the act and then it is too often late to correct. Large pitchpole margins are necessary for safety and for mission success sailing at high speeds in the open ocean. The more pitchpole margin available, the harder the boat can be driven with success. The reserve restoring moment in a long tall bow is very closely related to reserve horsepower. Most sailors would say,"give me all of that that you've got, Mister".
Bill

#36460 - 08/18/04 06:19 PM Re: No progress since 1970??? [Re: Hakan Frojdh]  
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BRoberts Offline
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BRoberts  Offline
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Posts: 284
S. Florida
Hello Hakan,
Thanks for your input. Here in the US we don't get to see any of what you are talking about. Our only comparisons between the 20ft boats is what we see in the Texel results.
There are/were two M20s in south Florida. I saw them excell in very light winds but as soon as the wind picked up, the magic went away.
Bill

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