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#37070 - 08/23/04 09:35 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: Tornado_ALIVE]  
Joined: Mar 2002
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RickWhite Offline
RickWhite  Offline


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Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Quote
So, the sails are exclusively available to just 3 teams...

I've no problem with the cloth. It's the exclusive supply agreement
that is unfair in a one-design class


Have to tell you that has always gone on. A clique of sailors discover a faster way and the those not in the clique are left out.
Happened for the 1976 trials. A group got together and had boats built of West System. While the boats measured in (sort of) they were a different design. They would build the hull to minimum specs in one spot, and maximum in another.
The end result was a boat that was not really a Tornado. They had more bow buoyancy, etc.
The boats were finished just before the trials and no one else was privy to the new design. The newly designed hulls and the light-weight and stiffness of the boats gave them superior speed.
The hulls should not have been approved into the class, but then again those in the clique were also strong polically in the class as well.
At the trials, the first seven (only seven made in time for the trials) took the first seven spots.
Not very fair, if you were not in that clique.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
#37071 - 08/23/04 10:43 AM Re: Get Tevo.., never fails! [Re: RickWhite]  
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Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Rick,

I've already gathered that Tivo is in my future - but what I really want to know is did I miss anything good last night!


Jake Kohl
#37072 - 08/23/04 11:01 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: Tornado_ALIVE]  
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rhodysail Offline
old hand
rhodysail  Offline
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Branford, CT
Anyone who thinks that having an exclusive mast, sailcloth or hull construction is illegal or otherwise unfair doesn't understand the game that these Olympians are playing. In a class like the Tornado developing your equipment is PART OF THE GAME. This is not Hobie 16 sailing we're talking about. When I was training for the Olympics in the 470 the Australian team had come up with a great sail design in the year before the games. Did they give that design away to their competition? Hell no! They were not that stupid. They spent a huge amount of their resources to develop their sails and it would have been vastly unfair to them if the rest of us were able to just buy the sails for a few hundred dollars. Like most every Olympic program we had our own sail development program and were figuring it out for ourselves. The sailcloth, masts ect are the same thing. To those that say this is not a true test of the sailor you are WAY off base. Developing your equipment requires a detailed understanding of what is fast and how your boat works that only the very best sailors in the world have.
The rules are defined before the game starts so that no one has a reason to call foul. Until you can point to the rule that has been broken you are just making slanderous accusations.
If the sails are "unfair" then a rule must have been broken. I challenge Stephen Medwell and Glenn to point to the rule that is being broken and to explain why the class measurers at the Olympics made a mistake in passing these sails.

Last edited by rhodysail; 08/23/04 11:02 AM.
#37073 - 08/23/04 11:28 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: rhodysail]  
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brobru Offline
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go to
www.sailing.org/olympic2004/results/news2832.html

This gives a nice report on race 5 and 6.

I can read that in today's races, a wind hole is a wind hole,...and doesn't care how advanced your sail cloth is

...looks like a real interesting regatta,...with 7 points between the top 5 boats...

....by the way, ...go USA and Puerto Rico!



regards,

Bruce
USVI

#37074 - 08/23/04 11:42 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: scooby_simon]  
Joined: Sep 2001
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sailwave Offline
enthusiast
sailwave  Offline
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Gower, Wales, UK
Quote
Don't suppose you have it on tape ? (even better if you have it in digital format)


I tried to tape it but the VCR recorded the main BBC channel, not the interactive one...

#37075 - 08/23/04 02:32 PM Re: Tornado have started [Re: sailwave]  
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scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
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Quote
Quote
Don't suppose you have it on tape ? (even better if you have it in digital format)


I tried to tape it but the VCR recorded the main BBC channel, not the interactive one...


Ho Hum.....Oh well.....


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
#37076 - 08/23/04 03:48 PM Re: Tornado have started [Re: rhodysail]  
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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West coast of Norway
Hey Rhody, watch the blood pressure

First, it was Glenn who said something was unfair. Stephen just re-posted some e-mails exchanged on the Tornado forum at yahoo.
Then Carl came with some new information, not available on the Yahoo T liste at the time when the allegations about unfairness was put forth.

If it is correct, that the sails in question are indeed moulded polyester sails. The are legal within the class rules (as I interpret them). The article spoke about "a new laminate", which most of us probably interpreted as a new type of cloth.

Having exclusive access to superior materials (like a new type of cloth) would in my opinion not be fair in a one-design class. Having developed a revolutionary sail design or whatever based on commonly available materials is of course OK. The same goes for Rick's example with the Gougeon cold moulded hulls..


I agreed with Glenn when I read the article, but with the new information about the sails provided by Carl, I would not call them unfair (just expensive).

I sure hope that sails from the mould are made available after the olympics, or that moulded sails are banned in the class. The last thing the T-class needs now, in the middle of the carbon mast 'schisma' is another expensive technology.. If the carbon mast passes the class ballot, new sail shapes will probably have to be developed anyway.

The tolerances in the rules of a one design class should be so narrow that the mast or moulded sail issues never came up.



Carl: Are you sure it is cuban (I presume you mean Cuben) fibre sails based on pentex ? Cuben fibre is a mix of carbon and polymer filaments in my dictionary, which is not class legal as only polyester fibres are allowed in Tornado sails..

Ref: Quantum Sail Design Group


On to something else. I wonder if the conditions the Tornados are sailing under in this olympics are trying for the participants. Looking on the score table at http://www.haveahobieday.com/olympics2004/results/tornadoOverall.asp
shows few consistently performing teams and reports of little wind. Racing in little wind is both a skill and a good bit of luck, in my humble experience..

Rolf

#37077 - 08/23/04 05:53 PM Re: Tornado have started [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]  
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rhodysail Offline
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rhodysail  Offline
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Branford, CT
Rolf
There is no way I'm going to "watch my blood pressure" while you guys try and marginalize the accomplishments of two absolute good sports who have worked there butts off for about two decades to get where they are today. The rules may not be what you think they should be, but they are what they are. The important thing is that they are the same for everyone. By definition that is FAIR.

#37078 - 08/23/04 06:09 PM Re: Tornado have started [Re: rhodysail]  
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Jake Offline
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I'm with Rhody. There are two ways to spin this thing;

1)A manufacturer has created an agreement to exclude other competitors from their technology.
2) A group of sailors and a manufacturer struck an agreement in order to share costs and resources in order to develop something new.

I believe the latter is what's happening here - there's no motivation for some huge conspiracy. Why would this sail maker NOT want to sell the other sails to other competitors? Only if you look at the other plausible facts does it make sense; It would make sense for that manufacturer to strike a time limited deal with a group of sailors to test the new sail material since they don't have the expertise on the water. It would also make sense to ask those sailors to contribute to the development in return for early access to the technology. It also makes sense that they would want to temporarily strike the agreement with teams that are reliable, have talent, and resources and as such, restrict the development (i.e. 'test control sample') to a select few in order to gain reliable feedback.

It seems that the Tornado folks to easily consider this class a single manufacturer one design - but is a box rule, and although a bit more strict, very similar to the newer F18 class. Development is important and no rule says that everyone has to share their sail shape development right? Why should the fabric from which it is made be any different - as long as it lies within the rules?


Jake Kohl
#37079 - 08/23/04 08:07 PM Re: Tornado have started [Re: carlbohannon]  
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BRoberts Offline
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BRoberts  Offline
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S. Florida
Hi Guys,
Sails made in molds are not new. Back in the days before computer designed sails were possible, some sailmakers made molds to their best guess sail shapes. The sailcloth panels were laid in these molds and cut to fit like a big puzzell. Some of these "molded" sails, as they were called, were fast and other molded sails were slow. It is all tied up in the shape of the mold and the shape of the mold came from somebody's drawing board. All mold cut sails are not fast. The key is in the shape of the mold. Today a good sail designer with a computer can duplicate any mold sail shape. It is possible that the "mold surface design" came from a sail design computer program and then the mold was built to the computer print out contoures.
Bill

#37080 - 08/24/04 01:26 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: rhodysail]  
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Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

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Melbourne, Australia
Quote
Rolf
There is no way I'm going to "watch my blood pressure" while you guys try and marginalize the accomplishments of two absolute good sports who have worked there butts off for about two decades to get where they are today. The rules may not be what you think they should be, but they are what they are. The important thing is that they are the same for everyone. By definition that is FAIR.


OK then I will say watch your blood pressure. I passed no comment, only re posted somebodies post here from another forum.

Now I will pass comment.

All credit given to the USA and other teams for the hard work they have put in.

In MY OWN OPINION it is not the Sail Design or Material I question. It is the exclusive agreement that has so called been signed. If this is the case I find it un sportsmanlike.

If you wish to play the game this way you develop it late enough to not give any other teams an oportunity to use this material. Not ban other teams from using it.

I also think the same way about the new GBR mast.

Just my opinion.


#37081 - 08/24/04 01:55 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: Jake]  
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Mary Offline
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Mary  Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
I think it is the timing of this exclusive R&D that is annoying some people. However, it is also a gamble for sailors who use something a little new and different. If none of the three boats using the new sails win medals in the Olympics, it will be a non-issue. If they do, it will probably be an issue forever, because it provides a good excuse for the losers.

It doesn't sound to me as though they have done anything illegal or unethical.

I don't know whether there are any restrictions about track shoes, but if I were a track star, I know I would be trying to design a faster shoe -- just for me.

#37082 - 08/24/04 03:15 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: rhodysail]  
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

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West coast of Norway
I got some good advice once, always try to breathe trough your nose when a discussion get heated. (It's quite hard to raise your voice or yell then..)


Rhody: I'm not saying anything bad about the US team. I'm not even "marginalizeing" their accomplishment. Norway dont have a Tornado team in this olympics, so I'm pretty neutral with regards to who wins!

If you re-read my post, you will hopefully see that I _agree_ with you regarding the sails. The sails are within the rules, and I dont have any gripes with them. Hence the comment about watching the blood pressure.

Jake got it right, 'everybody' tought it was alternative 1 based on the information available at the time. It seems like it was alternative 2 instead, and that is of course OK.

Now, the other comments you obviously seem to read some "marginalizeing" in, is my views on class building and has nothing to do with the olympics.

You are mis-reading both my post and intentions. I care for the T-class, and not so much about this olympics.

Please watch your blood pressure..


Stephen:
The rules doesn't say anything about the construction of sails besides permitted sail materials. Everybody has used panelled construction so far, probably due to cost.
The US team and partners appears to have developed and costed a mould for moulded T sails, and agreed with the sailmaker that these sails are for exclusive use by the partners in this olympic.

This is OK in my opinion.
Doesn't Roman Hagara have a sailmaker working exclusively for him with panelled sails ? I dont quite see the difference between the moulded sails and Hagara's approach. It boils down to the flying shape of the sail in the end (as Bill Roberts said).
Moulded sails have some advantages, like weight, crimp, airflow and shape. But the technology for making them is not new or exclusive, so all teams could have done this if they tought of it and had the budget.
The only new thing might be moulding with pentex fibres, but I dont know if that is a new technology ?

The real issue, is indeed exclusiveness, like the RYA masts. And I believe that the only way to stop this is tighter tolerances in the rules.

Rolf

#37083 - 08/24/04 04:36 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]  
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scooby_simon Offline
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scooby_simon  Offline
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Quote
I got some good advice once, always try to breathe trough your nose when a discussion get heated. (It's quite hard to raise your voice or yell then..)


Rhody: I'm not saying anything bad about the US team. I'm not even "marginalizeing" their accomplishment. Norway dont have a Tornado team in this olympics, so I'm pretty neutral with regards to who wins!

If you re-read my post, you will hopefully see that I _agree_ with you regarding the sails. The sails are within the rules, and I dont have any gripes with them. Hence the comment about watching the blood pressure.

Jake got it right, 'everybody' tought it was alternative 1 based on the information available at the time. It seems like it was alternative 2 instead, and that is of course OK.

Now, the other comments you obviously seem to read some "marginalizeing" in, is my views on class building and has nothing to do with the olympics.

You are mis-reading both my post and intentions. I care for the T-class, and not so much about this olympics.

Please watch your blood pressure..


Stephen:
The rules doesn't say anything about the construction of sails besides permitted sail materials. Everybody has used panelled construction so far, probably due to cost.
The US team and partners appears to have developed and costed a mould for moulded T sails, and agreed with the sailmaker that these sails are for exclusive use by the partners in this olympic.

This is OK in my opinion.
Doesn't Roman Hagara have a sailmaker working exclusively for him with panelled sails ? I dont quite see the difference between the moulded sails and Hagara's approach. It boils down to the flying shape of the sail in the end (as Bill Roberts said).
Moulded sails have some advantages, like weight, crimp, airflow and shape. But the technology for making them is not new or exclusive, so all teams could have done this if they tought of it and had the budget.
The only new thing might be moulding with pentex fibres, but I dont know if that is a new technology ?

The real issue, is indeed exclusiveness, like the RYA masts. And I believe that the only way to stop this is tighter tolerances in the rules.

Rolf


Rolf,

I feel that you have hit the nail on the dead with the above post.

It is not out of class what has been done. Just clever sailors looking (and have the found it or not) for an extra little bit.

To the doubters above, IBM would not openly advertise and sell to its competitors would they ?

The 3 teams that have co-operated have taken a risk by getting new technology sails measured - If they are slow, hard luck. Ditto the 'RYA' mast, use the technolohy to its best.

If the T is to become a one design boat, it needs rules to that effect and in the process you end up with a restricted class that does not evolve…..

Some strict one designs (like the laser) work fine. But with something like the T, some crew preferences are catered for by the measurement (Box) rule – Bendy masts for light crews and stiff ones for the fat(er) boys being a classic example.

The leading edge (of ‘normal’) normal cat development is not a cheap place to be


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
#37084 - 08/24/04 05:57 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: brobru]  
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brobru Offline
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Good Morning all,

I have to amend a mistake ,.....as of Tuesday, there are 7 points between the top 6 boats ( instead of 5 boats)

....looks like a tremendous battle lies ahead,....any boat can 'do it'!

A little info please, on the Sweden team, is 'Kristin' a gal?

regards and enjoy your day,

Bruce

USVI

.

#37085 - 08/24/04 06:02 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: Jake]  
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Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe


>>It seems that the Tornado folks to easily consider this class a single manufacturer one design - but is a box rule, and although a bit more strict, very similar to the newer F18 class.

Isn't that the truth. as a matter of fact the tornado has never been anything else than that. Small hull shape differences existed in the past between Reg White, sailcraft and mastrom tornado's as well.

Moreso the switching of places in the tornado class during events seems to indicate that sail skill is still by far the most important factor. Look where Bundy is right now. It is all about who is peaking during the week of racing and who peaked to soon or to late.

How much more equal do you want to get it ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#37086 - 08/24/04 06:04 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]  
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Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
Quote
The real issue, is indeed exclusiveness, like the RYA masts. And I believe that the only way to stop this is tighter tolerances in the rules.

Rolf


Hi Rolf,

The only issue I have also is about the exclusiveness of material too.

Nothing against the US team, I wish them the best off luck as long as they don't beat AUS

If you can do it and get away with it you will and I would too. But some loopholes also should be closed.

At the end of the day whats done is done and lets get on with racing. I think what is happening with the Masts are more damaging than the Sails.


#37087 - 08/24/04 06:49 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: Tornado_ALIVE]  
Joined: Jun 2001
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Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Saw the footage last night from Bravo (VCR working again! ) and we had about 12 minutes of Race 5 coverage. Can you imagine the frustration on the Americans after a bad start, fighting back a little, and then your dousing line repeatedly gets wrapped on the onboard camera and the leeward mark! They had to manually stuff their spinnaker for the rest of that race and race 6 (in the snuffer). Ouch. This is a close battle and Bundock looked strong.


Jake Kohl
#37088 - 08/24/04 08:01 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: Jake]  
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John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
Hey Jake, et. al. -

Anybody else notice the way the "new" sails sound and look? Instead of sounding "crispy" like new sails I'm used to hearing, these new sails almost sound "crunchy." Could be the quality of the sound equipment on the boats, though the timbre of voices sounds normal... something different about the sound of the sails, though. It also seemed to me that the tack of the jib was all crunched down like they had a bunch of jib downhaul on, but it didn't seem all that breezy.

I liked Jobson's comment - he said he'd like to see the Tornado race the 49er! Me too!

Steve - AUS looked really strong with a 1 and a 2!

[Linked Image]


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
#37089 - 08/24/04 09:50 AM Re: Tornado have started [Re: John Williams]  
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ejpoulsen Offline
old hand
ejpoulsen  Offline
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Central California
Quote
I liked Jobson's comment - he said he'd like to see the Tornado race the 49er! Me too!


Sure, the 49ers are very cool and very fast. Now that the Tornados have spinnakers, I doubt it would be much of a race, though.


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
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