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Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: Mary] #39698
11/14/04 12:09 PM
11/14/04 12:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
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ISAF might as well add another RULE, that each sailor shall be required to carry on her person an effortlessly accessible tool with a serrated blade to cut your mate (or yourself) FREE of every possible line or sheet on the boat (or out from the tramp).

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: Mark Schneider] #39699
11/14/04 01:40 PM
11/14/04 01:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 138
California!
Inter_Michael Offline
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Inter_Michael  Offline
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California!
To think some here have actually implied that the fed gov can and should mandate safety standards. I am always amazed that people think the fed gov has the answers to all the problems.

Lets see....they tried to regulate the costs of the flu shots....we all see the results.....they run the railroad (all at a loss...save the ne corridor) When they "had" the airlines...one could never travel coast to coast for the equvilent of $200.00

So now we want the a "gov body" to regulate our safety and practices....again....the regulating body at UAL tried to mandate pilot wages...end result? Go against the market..and suffer the consequences.

Did not Adam Smith make a remark about the "invisable hand" of decisions? Sailors!! Let's handle this ourselves....we are sailors, and therefore, quite capable of making rational thoughts...

just my 2 cents..

Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: Inter_Michael] #39700
11/15/04 04:15 PM
11/15/04 04:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 15
M
MarineTurtle Offline
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I'm usually a reader-only at this forum but I remembered seeing some information on this issue so I thought it could be worth posting.

Quote

ISAF Sailing Committee Minutes for April 2004 meeting

[color:"brown"]5. QUICK RELEASE TRAPEZE HARNESSES
(a) November 2003 Council Minute[/color]
The Committee noted the Council minute which read:
"Council approved the proposal that competitors must make sure that trapeze or hiking vest hooks must have a quick release of the hook that quickly and mechanically allows the sailor to detach the hook completely from the plate to which it is attached."

[color:"brown"](b) Currently available equipment[/color]
The Committee received a summary of known currently available equipment and presentations from representatives of Sea Sure(800 units sold), Wichard (prototype-available December 2004) and Milan University (prototype). Examples of RWO (300 units produced) and Bethwaite (2,500 units produced) products were also viewed.

[color:"brown"]Recommendation to Council[/color]
The Sailing Committee endorses the general intent of the Council minute. Several workable designs are available or coming to the market but the technology is still developing. One of the devices demonstrated did not involve the complete detachment of the hook whilst another did not involve a hook at all. The Sailing Committee was also informed that there could be some patent issues regarding quick release hook mechanisms. Council are asked to consider whether at this stage use of this equipment is best promoted by education or through legislation. With legislation comes the probable need for setting standards and for equipment approval, which would inevitably involve some administrative responsibilities and potential legal liabilities. These implications should be thoroughly understood before a legislative route is taken.
Further experience with the systems is required before the Sailing Committee could say that this is a major improvement in personal safety.


Evidently they decided on legislation rather than education.
Quote

http://www.sailing.org/meetings/2004november/papers/SC_11b.pdf

[color:"brown"]QUICK RELEASE TRAPEZE HARNESSES[/color]
Council Mid-Year 2004 Minute 6 (ll)

[color:"brown"](a) Hook Quick Release System – Submission 186-03[/color]
Consistent with minute 3(n)(i) of the Council minutes, 14-15 November 2003, Council received a recommendation from the Constitution Committee to delay implementation of the policy on the ‘hook quick release system’. In addition, Council noted that the Sailing Committee had reviewed a summary of known currently available equipment and received presentations from manufacturer representatives. Several workable designs are available or coming to the market but the technology is still developing. Council therefore noted the recommendation from the Sailing Committee that ISAF should do further research into the available systems.

[color:"brown"]Decision[/color]
(i) On a proposal by Charles Cook (Group P – North America), seconded by David Tillett (Group L – South West Pacific), Council unanimously approved the following:
[color:"brown"]a.[/color] that ISAF adopt a new racing rule 40.2 which will require that any harness or trapeze must have on it a device capable of quickly releasing the competitor at all times that means while the boat is capsized or turned turtle or if there is an emergency and the competitor needs to release himself.
[color:"brown"]b.[/color] That the original implementation date approved by Council (immediate) be changed to 1st January 2006 to allow the market more time to develop the products.

It is worthy of note that the November 2003 wording may have outlawed key and ball systems. In my opinion, this and possible legal issues, are the reason that the final wording of the rule is far less prescriptive on the nature of the "quick release mechanism".

There would have been far less confusion if the final rule had used wording similar to paragraph a of the decision.

Clearly, the intent of the rule, when read with the minutes in mind, is to outlaw current hook and ring systems.

--Quick Release Products--

Sea-Sure Quick Release Trapeze Hook

RWO Quick Release Trapeze Hook

Bethwaite Keyball Trapeze System

Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: MarineTurtle] #39701
11/15/04 05:55 PM
11/15/04 05:55 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
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A



I say that they pay for these "upgrades". Every trapeze sailor get's a new harness of their choice from ISAF!

Seriously, how are 'they' going to enforce this issue to the lowest level? Knee-jerk reaction. A better time frame would be Jan 2008. This would allow more companies to re-design their harnesses/buckle systems.

BC

Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: Mary] #39702
11/15/04 06:11 PM
11/15/04 06:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
We did discuss this in Portland at the US SAILING meeting, but not with any real seriousness, mostly because Judges agree that the wording is wide open. That combined with an effective date that may become permanently "the day after tomorrow" make it doubtful that it's something we have to worry about soon. I can't imagine someone filing a protest over my harness. And then what does the Judge or protest committee ask you? Quick release - yes sir! Sometimes involuntarily!

Most folks I talked to indicated they see this as a problem for classes that use continuous systems, not for beach cats and board sailors.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: John Williams] #39703
11/30/04 09:43 AM
11/30/04 09:43 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Cape Town, South Africa
Sorry for bringing this one up again :

A chat with a Hobie 16 sailor this weekend tells me that this new rule, in one form or another, is a long way overdue.
Sailing in the Cape Point Challenge, (85km distance race in Cape Town, to the end of Cape Point & back. Can get nasty),his crewmember accidentally hooked his harness hook over the plastic handle that is in the wire trap-hook that the French Hobies are fitted with. Could he get it out ? Nope. Two of them couldn`t get it out, it had taken the full weight of the sailor to "pop" it into place, and was coming out for no-one. The skipper tried to assist in releasing the crew, while both still wiring & sailing in fresh breeze & quite big seas. That`s when he realized that if they capsize things could become a problem. The crew released all the buckles & climbed out of the harness, something he`d have found much more difficult underwater.
Since then they both carry a knife that can be opened with one hand in their harness. Maybe we should also carry a pair of wire-cutters ? Overkill ? Maybe, but you never know.

I`m not sure if this windsurfing harness system would comply. I have one, and it releases one side of the spreader bar, and loosens the leg straps, enabling you to get out of the harness quickly (mainly for a pee ! )

http://www.pro-limit.com/displayitem.php3?item_id=1103

Cheers
Steve

Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #39704
11/30/04 01:39 PM
11/30/04 01:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 241
Simi Valley, CA
jfint Offline
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jfint  Offline
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Posts: 241
Simi Valley, CA
I generally try to cary a stainless knife that clips to my life vest(although its missing right now, grrrrrrr) anyhow, when i was first learning to sail, someone told me that you never know when you will need to cut something fast, made sense to me, so I try to always have it, especially if there aren't gonna be lotsa folks around.


Josh Fint Prindle 19 "Accident Prone" Moro Bay Sailing
Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #39705
01/11/05 07:49 PM
01/11/05 07:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 131
Scotland
George_Malloch Offline
member
George_Malloch  Offline
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Quote
Sorry for bringing this one up again :

A chat with a Hobie 16 sailor this weekend tells me that this new rule, in one form or another, is a long way overdue.
Sailing in the Cape Point Challenge, (85km distance race in Cape Town, to the end of Cape Point & back. Can get nasty),his crewmember accidentally hooked his harness hook over the plastic handle that is in the wire trap-hook that the French Hobies are fitted with. Could he get it out ? Nope. Two of them couldn`t get it out, it had taken the full weight of the sailor to "pop" it into place, and was coming out for no-one. The skipper tried to assist in releasing the crew, while both still wiring & sailing in fresh breeze & quite big seas. That`s when he realized that if they capsize things could become a problem. The crew released all the buckles & climbed out of the harness, something he`d have found much more difficult underwater.
Since then they both carry a knife that can be opened with one hand in their harness. Maybe we should also carry a pair of wire-cutters ? Overkill ? Maybe, but you never know.

I`m not sure if this windsurfing harness system would comply. I have one, and it releases one side of the spreader bar, and loosens the leg straps, enabling you to get out of the harness quickly (mainly for a pee ! )

http://www.pro-limit.com/displayitem.php3?item_id=1103

Cheers
Steve


If he'd been using the bethwait system he couldn't have got caught that way. Shame that ISAF seem to be outlawing that too!


Stealth www.peyc.org.uk
Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: John Williams] #39706
01/11/05 09:54 PM
01/11/05 09:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
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Gulf Coast
Hi John,

where were you at the GYA meet on Sat, hmmm?

Dick Rose was lecturing at the GYA winter meet, and when he fielded questions, I asked him exactly what was the definition of a quick release harness.

Rose replied that there were to be parameters defined by several different entities, and their findings would likely be published by January 2006, and not to worry about it until then...

sea ya
tami

Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: tami] #39707
01/11/05 10:47 PM
01/11/05 10:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
and not to worry about it until then...


That is...unless you're trapped under water!


Jake Kohl
Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: Jake] #39708
01/12/05 04:48 AM
01/12/05 04:48 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Or if you need a new harness in 2005..

Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #39709
01/12/05 11:03 AM
01/12/05 11:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Don't you think they will toss this whole rule out for liability reasons? How can ISAF take it upon themselves to legislate that you have to use a certain kind of gear? I think their job is to educate and maybe even recommend, but not to legislate.

Even on the big boats, regarding use of life jackets, ISAF only went as far as requiring life jackets to be worn during the start and the finish of the race. In between, it is up to the captain of the vessel (unless they have changed that rule).

Maybe they just proposed this rule to get classes, and sailors and trapeze harness manufacturers to start thinking about coming up with safer harnesses.

Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: Mary] #39710
01/12/05 12:44 PM
01/12/05 12:44 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Toss the rule out? I dont think so, if they dumped a safety rule, they would loose a lot of credibility.

Liability? Wouldn't that cut both ways, if more people died while trapped (pun unintended) in their harnesses? I dont know, but wouldn't suing ISAF over this be a quick way to kill off their own business, instead of changing their product?

As long as they dont go so far as to only allow certain brands, I dont see how they could be sued over this? The ITA only allows certain sailcloths, spesific weights and brands, as far as I know nobody has sued them over this yet.

Those among us who race, needs rules to do so in an orderly way, isn't that legislation?

I am neither a lawyer or businessman, so I dont know..

Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #39711
01/12/05 01:00 PM
01/12/05 01:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
No, it does not "cut both ways." If sailors are responsible for their own safety, as it has always been, why would the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) have any liability? It is only when they actually HAVE a rule that ISAF invites some liability.


Last edited by Mary; 01/12/05 01:09 PM.
Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: Mary] #39712
01/25/05 05:47 PM
01/25/05 05:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
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Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Some of us on www.yachtsandyachting.com have asked the ISAF for a clarification of this on their forum (you will need to register to view it) and I would urge you all to add some comments here so we can FORCE the ISAF to make a comment about it

Linky to ISAF Forum



F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness??? [Re: scooby_simon] #39713
09/21/05 08:28 PM
09/21/05 08:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
HAH! (but I'm still wearing mine)

Quote
Included in submissions to this year's ISAF Conference, two from the Chairman of the ISAF Equipment Committee:

148-05 "Delete RRS 40.2 [which is the (in)famous one about quick release trapeze harnesses] from the 2005-2008 Edition of the Racing Rules of Sailing."

or as an alternative:

147-05: "Delay the implementation date of RRS 40.2 from 1st January 2006. Rule 40.2 to be introduced with either the current or with amended wording on a date decided by a vote of the ISAF Council."

Reason given for both proposals: "As noted in Council Mid-Year minutes:
“In discussion it was felt that as currently worded, RRS 40.2 was inadequate and that ISAF should only introduce such a rule when standards have been established by an independent body. Concerns over ISAF liability were also raised.”"


Jake Kohl
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