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Just getting started and could use some advise. #42198
01/02/05 04:26 PM
01/02/05 04:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
New York
PhilipNolan Offline OP
stranger
PhilipNolan  Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
New York
Iím a 51 years young 180 lb athletic guy living in Long Island wanting to get into beach cats and trying to decide which used cat to buy. Looking at Nacra 6.0, Mystere 4.3, and Hobie 16. Iím probably going to single hand most of the time. And would appreciate any advise you would have.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Phil

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: PhilipNolan] #42199
01/02/05 05:19 PM
01/02/05 05:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
6.0 is too much boat for single handing except in light conditions. Stick with 18' and under.


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: arbo06] #42200
01/02/05 05:39 PM
01/02/05 05:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Of those three boats, I would suggest the Mystere 4.3. It is very versatile, because it comes with main, jib and spinnaker, so you can sail with main only; main and jib; main and spinnaker; or main, jib and spinnaker.

Long Island Sound is usually light air in the summer, so you might have more fun, too, with the 4.3 because of the spinnaker.

Don't even think about the Nacra 6.0 if you are going to singlehand. It is a very powerful boat; and there is no way you could right it by yourself if it capsized.

Last edited by Mary; 01/02/05 07:14 PM.
Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: Mary] #42201
01/03/05 12:00 PM
01/03/05 12:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
I was just asked the very same question on the phone yesterday. What would be a good single-handed, high performance cat?

If we are talking about a fast boat, there seems to be only two boats available.., the I-17 and the Taipan 4.9 (although there are some other F16 makes, but doubt if they are available in the USA -- check our F16 Forum)

Mary suggested the Mystere 4.3, but they are no faster than the Hobie Wave with an added Hooter System. Both are fun and easy and would be great learning boats.

And, as everyone has already stated, you do not want anything 18' + for single-handing.

good luck,
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: RickWhite] #42202
01/03/05 12:37 PM
01/03/05 12:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
old hand
Mike Hill  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Rick, I'm suprised you didn't recommend the Acat.

In response to the poster I would stay away from the 6.0 as it is too much boat for single handing. The H16 needs a righting bag, pole, or device to right it single handed. It's also a little heavy to lug on shore. So I would also recommend the 4.3 as a great little beginners boat that is fun to sail.

Mike Hill
Tiger #1520


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: RickWhite] #42203
01/03/05 01:00 PM
01/03/05 01:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


If I have to choose from the list of three boats provide I would scrap the N6.0 straight away and be in doubt wether to choose the H16 or M4.3.

If you are willing to expand your listing I would recommend looking at the following boats. I order of "would like to have" if you have the money.

A-cat (no taking somebody along though)
F16's (Taipan 4.9's, there is one 2001 secondhander at 7800 US$ in the classifieds. Stealth or Blade F16's)
Nacra I-17's and Hobie FX-one (although the latter is nearly impossible to right without aids)

Prindle 16 (Good cheap second handers and easier to right than H16)
Prindle 15 (Again cheap second hand and the Prindle singlehander, faster than Hobie 14)
Nacra 500 or 5.0
Hobie 14
Dart 18

Maybe you can even get your hands on a Nacra 5.5 uni

All these boats are way more interesting for your usage than the N6.0 and possible better than the H16 and M4.3 although I must reall admit than the spi package on the M4.3 will be alot of fun. M4.3 may not be a bad choice actually when limiting yourself to the 3 boats listed. Considering the low price.

I reply to Rick White :

Quote

If we are talking about a fast boat, there seems to be only two boats available.., the I-17 and the Taipan 4.9 (although there are some other F16 makes, but doubt if they are available in the USA -- check our F16 Forum)


I agree with Rick on the fast singlehanders, but would add the A-cat catamarans to the list. The Taipan (F16) is a very good singlehander. With respect to other F16 makes, the Blade F16 is currently build in USA by vectorwork Marine in Titusville Florida and will be WAY cheaper than all other F16's due to the absurd exchange rate of the US dollar to the Euro and Australian dollar. That with the possible exception of the second hand Taipan 4.9 in the classifieds of catsailor.com If you want more info on the US build Blade F16 than mail Matt McDonald at MMcDonald@VectorworksMarine.com

With respect to the Stealth F16, this boat is sold factory direct but at 1.33 US$ to 1 Euro the Stealth F16 comes out at about 14.000-15.000 US$ for US customer dependening on the tax laws per state. Not the cheap deal it used to be.

If you want more info on any of these F16 than you can contact me at F16class@xs4all.nl . I advice you go after the A-cats and I-17R as well, I'm sure other people can tell you more about these than I.

Regards,

Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: Wouter] #42204
01/03/05 04:28 PM
01/03/05 04:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Phil,

Where are you based ?

This could influence what you should buy if you were to ever want to race it.



F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: scooby_simon] #42205
01/03/05 05:52 PM
01/03/05 05:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
And do you have any other kind of sailing experience?


Jake Kohl
Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: Jake] #42206
01/03/05 06:32 PM
01/03/05 06:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
I would not recommend the A Cat.., note that the subject of the post was "new to sailing...," and the boat is too fragile for a newbie.

I stick with the first two for high speed -- Inter 17 and Taipan 4.9

and for slower versions, the Wave with Hooter and the Mystere 4.3

Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: RickWhite] #42207
01/04/05 12:29 AM
01/04/05 12:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
New York
PhilipNolan Offline OP
stranger
PhilipNolan  Offline OP
stranger
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
New York
Thank you all for all the help I really appreciate the advise.
Phil

Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: PhilipNolan] #42208
01/04/05 11:22 AM
01/04/05 11:22 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 14
The Netherlands
bolivar Offline
stranger
bolivar  Offline
stranger
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 14
The Netherlands
Isn't the Hobie FX One an option as well? Any opinion about this one in relation to the I-17?

Bart

Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: PhilipNolan] #42209
01/04/05 10:15 PM
01/04/05 10:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 163
Atlanta
GeoffS Offline
member
GeoffS  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 163
Atlanta
I was in a similar situation two years ago. I was looking for a single-handed catamaran, and the last boat I owned was a Nacra 5.7 (a very simple boat) about ten years ago. I bought an Inter-17R (the class insignia on my newest sail indicates it is now an F-17). I am still very very happy with the boat. I was initially intimidated by the technical nature of the boat, but trying to figure it out has become most of the fun. In retrospect, I am so glad that I did not settle for a boat with less potential. (P.S. - I weigh 160 lb and I can't right my I-17R without the *big* waterbag.)

Geoff
Atlanta, GA

Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: GeoffS] #42210
01/05/05 01:23 AM
01/05/05 01:23 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
New York
PhilipNolan Offline OP
stranger
PhilipNolan  Offline OP
stranger
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
New York
Thank you for all your advice. I have no sailing experience and planning on sailing and possibly racing on and around Long Island. After all the great feedback canít really afford an Inter 17 or a Taipan 4.9 so I'm leaning towards a Nacra 5.5 uni. Does any one have experience righting them, wondering if itís hard to do?
Thanks Again
Phil

Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: PhilipNolan] #42211
01/05/05 09:43 AM
01/05/05 09:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
Phil,

The 5.5U is a great boat to both single hand or take along guests. It is a little heavier than most single handers so moving it around on the beach single handed will be difficult. However, the boat has plenty of freeboard to take on a good deal of crew weight. There are also two versions of the 5.5 with a sloop for two person sailing (main and jib) or the 5.5U (mainsail only). Conversion between the two is not all that difficult.

You will probably need some sort of righting aid for the 5.5U. A waterbag is a good cost effective alternative but is slow to deploy and use - I carry one when distance racing just incase one of us gets separated from the capsized boat. Basically it's a big bag attached to the high side of the boat that's lowered into the water and filled. It's then raised with a light block and tackle system to give you additional righting moment. Another quicker/easier (but naturally a bit more expensive) alternative is a "righting pole". It's a lightweight pole that resides under the center of the trampoline running front to back that pivots on the front beam. If capsized, you stand on the underside of the low hull, pull the pole out horizontally, and climb out/hang on the pole to move your weight out further to gain enough righting leverage. There are other righting systems out there as well. Both of these type should be available in the store in this website.


Jake Kohl
Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: Jake] #42212
01/05/05 10:13 AM
01/05/05 10:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
New York
PhilipNolan Offline OP
stranger
PhilipNolan  Offline OP
stranger
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
New York
Thanks Jake for the rundown on the Nacra 5.5 uni and explaining the righting procedures for me. There is a used Nacra 570 available. Would you know if the 570 cat is to big for single-handing and if I could right it by myself?
And if I want to race in the LI area does it matter what cat I buy? Once again thanks for all the great advice.
Phil

Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: PhilipNolan] #42213
01/05/05 10:42 AM
01/05/05 10:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
I've never sailed a 5.7 but I've seen one a while back. It's an interesting catamaran with a skeg keel instead of daggerboards. Because of this, it's upwind performance will be slightly less than a boat with daggerboards...however, when it comes to sailing in shallow water or beaching the boat, it's one less thing to deal with since daggerboards must be raised and lowered. I imagine the boat is a bit heavier than the 5.5. While any boat can be singlehanded, I would say that it's getting a little beyond what you might want to consider a typical singlehander size-wise.

If you do plan to race, you may definitely want to consider what kind of boats you will be racing against. Most regattas have an open class that will group all sorts of onesies and twosies catamarans and adjust finish times using a national handicap system. This kind of racing is fine for some but most of the best learning experience can be found if you can race within a number of identical boats. The majority of serious racers prefer to race this way because the playing field is so much more even. I would certainly check around with the local catamaran clubs and see what is being raced locally if you think that might be a consideration. As it's winter most everywhere in the US, there may not be a whole lot of action at the moment but you may even consider hitching a ride during a few regattas to get a feel for what you do and don't like.


Jake Kohl
Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: PhilipNolan] #42214
01/05/05 11:24 AM
01/05/05 11:24 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Phil,
I see you have already been to the LICSA forum here, so I think your best source of advice for the best boat in that area would be Steve Bellavia.

Re: Just getting started and could use some advise [Re: PhilipNolan] #42215
01/05/05 11:40 AM
01/05/05 11:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 107
Texas
Bob Klein Offline
member
Bob Klein  Offline
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Posts: 107
Texas
I would like to add one point to this exchange. You speak that you have no sailing experience but you are interested in purchasing a Nara 5.5. To have never sailed and plan to start on a Nacra 5.5 may be a bit challenging. If you have other catamaran sailors in the area, I believe you will be fine. I speak from personal experience, as there are very few catamaran sailors within an hourís drive of my home. Again, if you have a fleet near you, make sure you hook up with someone who is willing to take you out.

I sailed a Hobie 16 for several years back in the 80s. I decided to get back into sailing and made a post similar to yours on the old forum in 2001. I became convinced from the comments that an Inter 18 was what I needed. Technically, the boat is far more complicated than my old 1972 Hobie 16ófrom the downhaul to the spinnaker. Just rigging it by myself for the first time was a challenge. Sailing it for the first time (with only my inexperienced crew) was a real trip. Right off of the beach, I started to fly a hull as the boat accelerated forward. The boat was far more powerful than I expected and my lack of experience only complicated the issue. Truthfully, if not for a sailor named Mark Meis, I still may still be wondering how to rig parts of this boat.

So, buy the boat of your dreams. Just make sure that there will be someone around to go out with you the first couple of times. You may want to buy Rickís book and read it before going out for the first time as well.

Just my opinion for what it is worth.

Re: Just getting started and could use some advise. [Re: PhilipNolan] #42216
01/05/05 11:52 AM
01/05/05 11:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
flounder Offline
enthusiast
flounder  Offline
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Neb
Nacra 5.7 / 570's are really fun boats. If you are not looking to race, but want a fast boat, Nacra 5.7 is a great choice for a couple of reasons:

1. Boomless, simple rig, easy setup.
2. Furling jib easy to de-power.
3. Bigger to take more people out with you.
4. No daggarboards to worry about.

The guy in the slip next to me has a 5.7 and has single handed it on moderate days (7-12mph wind). Otherwise, two people is the normal for guys our size (160-190lb). Remember it is at 19' boat.

If you are not going to race... look at a Hobie Getaway. My dad single-hands his 80% of the time. $6000 new, worth every penny.

Re: Just getting started and could use some advise [Re: Bob Klein] #42217
01/05/05 12:52 PM
01/05/05 12:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Bob touches on a very good point actually.

I often forget about that as overhere we all sail at sailing clubs that range in size from at minimum 10 cats to over 100 cats. So for European sailors there is always some old dog around to help you get started. I remember the first time I had to rig my Prindle 16 way back and even despite the fact it is as simple a boat as the H16 I still got lost. A few well placed hints by the sailor in the parking spot next too me cut my rigging time back by 75 %.

With regard to new modern design I think you will do well to read up on tuning and trimming guides that are available on the net for designs like the Hobie Tiger, F18's in general, I-17R, A-cats and F16's. Sure none of these may be fully applicable when you choose to go for a Nacra 5.5 but you will learn what to look for while sailing a modern rig and how to be the boss of it.

In my own experience you must also not be too intimidated by a new modern rig. These trimming options are there to make depowering and controlling that sail area easier and more comfortable. Sure you'll need to put in some effort to understand what does what, but after this initial bumb you should be more comfortable on a modern rig boat than when sailing an older rig with inferiour controls.

To be really honest I would make the follow seperation in designs.

On one hand you have the truly simple and older designs like the Prindle 16, Hobie 16, Prindle 15, Hobie 14, Dart 18, nacra 5.0 and nacra 500 (there are more but this are the most dominant ones) ; these boat are both easy to rig and easy to control while sailing. In my opnion these are in general excellent boats for first time recreational users WHEN you use them in the right way. The last statement is directed at not sailing a Hobie 14 with two adults or a Hobie 16 singlehanded.

Then as a second group you have the truly modern boats like Nacra I-17R, all Formula 18's, all A-cats, Hobie FX-one and Formula 16's. These boat are a major step in control as well as speed and power. To give you an example from my own experience. First time I sailed my F16 I had lots of power, the hull would fly at an instant and I was sailing at a crawling speed. Something was wrong, that was clear. I was sailing the boat like a Prindle 16, meaning not using the controls that were available to me. Along side came another F16 sailor and all he said was. "Draft of your mainsail is way to full, jank on the downhaul and mainsheet till you think you can go no further". After wiping that sheepish look of my face I did and soon the boat sped along at top speed and was as easy a puppy. No lifting, no shaking of the platform from power and she was a stable as an anvil. from that moment onward I never had a problem with control again. Later I struck myself on the head because I knew this. I had been crewing on F18's in prior years and that was what we did to make the boat go and make it smooth. Point of the story is that you can learn from comment made in relation to other boats and that only knowing a few trick will get you a well behaved boat despite it rig being big and very modern. So if you are willing to make the initial effort to learn these key tricks you will be fine on a modern boat.

The 3rd group is in my opinion the one to be more carefull about. Those are the design between group 1 and 2. These are the designs that are not as simple as those in group one but also not as refined as the truly modern boats of group 2. Boats like the Prindle 18 (spreader !), nacra 5.5, Hobie 18's etc. Here you got nearly the same complexity issues but often with less well balanced sails and controls. There is in my opinion a noticeable risk that on these designs you'll need the same experience as on the modern boats to control the boat but often it is more difficult to make the right control actions as the systems are less refined or the design itself is ambiquious about what it likes. Example : On a friends 18 foot design of the 80's (won't name the type) it was impossible to trim the mast rotation and downhaul unless you came in onto to trampoline and moved up to the mast. You always have the biggest need to make trim adjustments in heavy weather WHEN you just don't want to come in and go towards the mast as a solo sailor. I went out with him a few times and I knew what to do and look for because my prior experience on F18's and F16. On these two latter boats I could adjust all stuff from the luff hull or trapeze and well away from the mast. It allowed me to play around with the controls and see what happened. This was a lot harder to do on the friends older 18 footer so he never did. Often these 3rd group secondhanders are run down a bit more and important systems like down work a lot less optimal than they used to. On 2 to 4 years old group 2 boats these system often are good running order.


I pretty much agree with all opinion given in this thread one way or another. It all comes down to how you are going to use your boat, how much you want out of it at a later time and how willing you are to put a little effort in, in the beginning.

We all have our prejudice, including myself, mostly because we all found what suited our wishes and needs best. Take that into account.

If you are relatively alone in your area, as a cat sailor. Than I would like to point you into the following directions, please read up on all.

-1- Rick Whites book catamaran sailing for the 90's. (Some things are different on modern rigs but it undoubtable a very good starting point and basic framework to hang additional experience on)

-2- Boat specific tuning guides and explanations like (I give examples in the F16 and F18 area only , excusse me for that)


http://www.prosail-asia.com/Sailing%20Tips/Sailing%20Tips.html (I like this introduction it is not too complicated but sets you up for more detailed info at a later time, will also make understanding comments from more experienced sailors easier)

http://asiaboatrag.net/formula/F16tips/intro.html

http://www.taipan.asn.au/Tips%20and%20Tricks/archived_tips_frame.htm

Also look at this video clip : http://tillard.georges1.free.fr/videos/WM9_256Kbps tunings.wmv

It shows how well the sail shape can be controlled by using the mainsheet and downhaul. This clip comes of the DVD (apparently 5 hours of playing time) that covers these things. This may well proof to be almost as good as having an experienced sailor close by. The DVD is not cheap but I appears it contains a wealth of information and actually shows you what happens when you use the controls of a modern rig.


Why do I tell you all this. Since this summer I'm getting more an more convinced that buying and sailing a truly modern boat may not be such a bad thing for a novice cat sailor. During some promo we did (F16) at my home club we lend a Taipan out to interested parties and in several cases neither of the crew had sailed a modern boat ever before. I never forget how they came back to the beach. Completely overjoyed, and that is the pure truth. One guys owns a very simple boat right now the kind we design think up for novices and he much prefered the Taipan. "Sure", he said; "It is more complicated but if you pull a string it is so clear what it does and wether it likes it that it is easy to control and allows you to learn very quickly what to do." When comparing it to his novice boat design he said ;"At my boat you encounter two situations , it behaves well or it doesn't theit is not that much that you can do to influence that". And you need to be handy with the few control that you do have to get it behave better when faced with a situation the design doesn't like.

So the trade-off may well be that you have to quickly learn to live with more complexity if you want the benefit of much inproved control after you've learned the few basic actions with the controls OR don't hink to much about anythign and get sailing but be stuck with what get is what you got depending on the conditions.

I admit it is not an easy choice.


Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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