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Re: Zero Sum [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #44311
02/17/05 10:07 AM
02/17/05 10:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


What some don't seem to understand is why the F18 ever became such a big class.

Would the same thing have happened if the EU regatta's put the first F18's ever build in to a 4 boat open class fleet ?

There is a reason why the us based H20 didn't make workd status while the EU based Tiger did.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Zero Sum [Re: JeffWoodard] #44312
02/17/05 11:56 AM
02/17/05 11:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
So...Jake....can I count on you to help lobby for Amy and I to be able to race the snake boat straight up in the F18 fleet at Bare what you dare in April?


I don't have a problem with it...Nobody else probably would either so come on up!


Jake Kohl
Re: Zero Sum.... now going negative! [Re: Jake] #44313
02/17/05 01:00 PM
02/17/05 01:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
I don't have a problem with it...Nobody else probably would either so come on up!


WINK WINK

What a way to run a railroad!

So... what happens when one sailor pitches a fit... "I travelled XX miles to race F18's... that boat is not an F18... blah blah blah. YOU NOR stated XXX"

I don't know about you.... but people would like a bit more transparancy and certainty here before they waste a weekend.

Publish how you will split the boats and stick with it and keep score.

What purpose does it serve to keep people guessing or hoping?

(Note Steve K's observation about the 5.0 sailor tossed into an open fleet when he should be racing the XXX16's boat for boat.... I have seen this time an time again.)







crac.sailregattas.com
Famous Regatta Excuses & back again [Re: jes9613] #44314
02/17/05 01:38 PM
02/17/05 01:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 342
Lake Murray, SC,USA
Cary Palmer Offline
enthusiast
Cary Palmer  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 342
Lake Murray, SC,USA
Quote:Perhaps the guy should have researched the regatta . . .before he got there John

That's a lot easier to talk about than to do. In the face of not having strong classes, many sailors give the excuse that thay wait to see who else will show up before they make their decisions. Most regattas have only about 1/2 of the boats preregister, even though they may save $10 a Participant and probably are not guaranteed an regatta shirt or hat for the lack of that pregistration. I think the problem lies in the last minute nature of the sailor's psyche. Goes right along with I don't wanna go to all the trouble if you can't guarantee the wind Mentality. Makes Regatta Organizers crazy trying to plan food and accommodations for an unknown number of participants. And then again your crew might not show up and you'd have to be sailing a Blade 16 to make that work for you, and now we're finally back on topic for this thread.
;C>
CARY


CARY
ACAT XJ Special
C&C 24
Re: Zero Sum.... now going negative! [Re: Mark Schneider] #44315
02/17/05 01:57 PM
02/17/05 01:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
So... what happens when one sailor pitches a fit... "I travelled XX miles to race F18's... that boat is not an F18... blah blah blah. YOU NOR stated XXX"


The bottom line is that if you are racing a boat that is not likely to have a class, you should be prepared to race in the open class when you come to a regatta in this area. I probably should have indicated this more clearly in my previous post. If the open class sailor expresses a desire to start with other boats, the RC will check with the other sailors to see if they mind. If only one of them does, then that boat will still need to compete in open. In this scenario the class sailors own the decision.

I am flexible and don't mind mixing it up a little but I can also understand how some F18 sailors have put a lot of effort into a class where they will have their own start. It is my opinion that the F18 sailors that typically sail at Bare What you Dare won't mind letting a Taipan 4.9 race with us. I think they would feel differently if it were a theoretically faster boat being mixed in than if it were a theoretically slower boat. In the case of my 6.0 in the F18 fleet, I would have asked to be scored by myself without an award if I thought I would clean up the F18 fleet with my 6.0 (I never had to) - it wouldn't have been fair.


Jake Kohl
Re: Fundamental issues [Re: Cary Palmer] #44316
02/17/05 02:12 PM
02/17/05 02:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 101
chesapeake bay
davidn Offline
member
davidn  Offline
member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 101
chesapeake bay
Now I know how it feels to be hijacked. Its not a bad thing since the conversation turned in an interesting direction. Of course we are really re-hashing old issues on this (hijacked) thread direction.

Personally, I suffered from bad timing in my choice; got into the Hobie 20 just as the class was dropping off in my area. I got a ride on a couple of H20s and an I20 and was hooked (coming off a Hobie 16). The area entrepeneur was promoting the H20 heavily until he started selling Inter 20s for a living; of course his focus changed. Anyway, I was able to buy a competitive H20 for less than half the price of a new I20. Problem was that I quickly had fewer and fewer skippers with which to race. Unfortunately, in my are the same thing is now happening to I20 sailors.

As Mark said, it seems to be a zero sum game to this point, in that the drop in H20 and I20 sailors is offset by a growth in A cat sailors. In the end, everyone will do what they think works best for themselves. Classes will rise and classes will decline. We probably should look harder at the more fundamental issues of beach access and collective homes for our boats where we can store mast up and have sailing programs for newbies and youth. Those two items may be the biggest causes of decline (and reasons for new growth).

Did I just hijack my own thread??

David
H20 781

Re: Fundamental issues [Re: davidn] #44317
02/17/05 06:47 PM
02/17/05 06:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 89
JeffWoodard Offline
journeyman
JeffWoodard  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 89
Jake,

No worries...I understand the "risk" of ending up in the Open class. As I mentioned, I'm asking for you to lobby for us to race straight up with the F18 guys. Damn, I hate doing math to figure out results! We'll forgoe any trophies as well...we just want to know where we finished when we crossed the line.

According to Texel, we're even...portsmouth, slower.

Should I start up a discussion on the NAF18 forum to see how it shakes out?


Jeff Woodard Atlanta, GA T 4.9 #216
Re: Fundamental issues [Re: JeffWoodard] #44318
02/17/05 07:36 PM
02/17/05 07:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jeff,

In this case, I would consider it difficult for you to have an unfair advantage racing within an F18 fleet. This is unlike my 6.0 scenario where a non-spin boat was pitted against spin boats.

At any rate, it wouldn't hurt anything to start a thread over at NAF18.com


Jake Kohl
Re: Zero Sum [Re: davidtilley] #44319
02/17/05 07:54 PM
02/17/05 07:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
David,
You are so right. Any "Rock Star" sailor is gonna smoke every one on the course as long as they have any decent design.

I still like the idea of dividing (or sub dividing) results into A & B quality Sailors.

Flame away, Nomex rules!


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: New Boat for Eric [Re: arbo06] #44320
02/18/05 09:37 AM
02/18/05 09:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 342
Lake Murray, SC,USA
Cary Palmer Offline
enthusiast
Cary Palmer  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 342
Lake Murray, SC,USA
Quote
Zuhl, Right on!

There is a Nacra 5.2 (or 5.5) aging away at the yacht club, I have made an offer. 2 good mains, catbox, wheels, trailer, and the tramp is still good.

My boys are 18, 16, and 12 plus they have an 8 year old sister that wants to sail. The ARC 21 is too big for me to take the littler kids out on without another adult, so I figger an old 17-18' will serve the purpose.

We will see........

Eric:
I'd vote for the 5.5 if it's an SL. It can handle what ever weight you want to put on it. They need a boat with a jib regardless, nothing like the frustration of being in irons to a kiddo. 5.2 would be easier for them to right if they're sailing by themselves, kinda depends on how fast they are growing up. Unless my parental clock is off, the 18 year old might not be around the boat so long as the others. That's what I liked about the 14. Three skinny 13 year olds can right it easily, with a 5.5 it would not be so.
Good Luck!
CARY


CARY
ACAT XJ Special
C&C 24
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