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Finally picked up my blade #46202
03/19/05 08:46 PM
03/19/05 08:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline OP
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Robi  Offline OP
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A little crosspost action going on here.
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...p;o=&fpart=1&vc=1&PHPSESSID=


Thought it would get more coverage over here.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Finally picked up my blade [Re: Robi] #46203
03/19/05 08:57 PM
03/19/05 08:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
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dave mosley  Offline
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Sweeeeet!
Come up and put it together at Spring Fever so we can all gawk over it!

David Mosley


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: Finally picked up my blade [Re: Robi] #46204
03/20/05 11:51 PM
03/20/05 11:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 736
Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
Brian_Mc Offline
old hand
Brian_Mc  Offline
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Robi, WOW! Congratulations! The rest of the world is suffering from Blade envy now! This should really turn things on for F16 in the U.S.! She really looks awsome!

Re: Finally picked up my blade [Re: Brian_Mc] #46205
03/21/05 06:43 AM
03/21/05 06:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline OP
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Robi  Offline OP
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Dave abd Brian, thanks for the kind words.

Re: Finally picked up my blade [Re: Brian_Mc] #46206
03/21/05 07:04 AM
03/21/05 07:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 167
St Croix Virgin Islands
vicatman Offline
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vicatman  Offline
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St Croix Virgin Islands
veerry nice!!!! just one question...how is it the Fox has been knocked for such a poor hull design(wave pericing),yet many of the new models especially the A-cats are very similar??..

Re: Finally picked up my blade [Re: vicatman] #46207
03/21/05 07:37 AM
03/21/05 07:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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How much does the Fox weigh? Maybe it's too heavy for the design. The Nacra A2 is only 165 lbs. and the Blade is 230. Still, I don't think wave piercing hulls do well out in the open ocean in 20 knots and big waves. The bows may be wave piercing but the beams and mast aren't! In those conditions long, fat bows like the Inter 20, are better.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Finally picked up my blade [Re: Timbo] #46208
03/21/05 09:18 AM
03/21/05 09:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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I think Wouter mentioned it not too long ago. There are waver piercers and then there are wave piercers. A catamaran still needs to have sufficient volume in the bows to keep from submerging. Although the blade does have a reverse canted bow, it appears (in my opinion) to have considerable hull volume up front for when it is needed. Looking at the Fox, the bows are not only reverse canted but they are quite thin and not very tall. The Blade, by comparison, has a taller bow and is a bit thicker.


Jake Kohl
Re: Finally picked up my blade [Re: Timbo] #46209
03/21/05 11:20 AM
03/21/05 11:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Tim,

You should really contact Matt or get a test ride on the Blade in these conditions.

As recently as 15 march Matt himself wrote on the F16 forum :

"4-6 foot rollers with big wind chop, and we never had an issue with waves smashing the cross bars."

Many times over the same comments were made by other who sailed the Blade (and prototype Blade) in such conditions.

Arguably the longer I-20 hulls make the ride smoother, no doubt about that, however better is still something that needs to be seen.

Matt in the same posting wrote :

"We raced the leg back right with a couple of 6.0, I20, H20, and the Acat. Same thing applied. We had boat speed equal with any of them when the wind piped up. In the lulls, the bigger boats would creep ahead."

This means that a whole lot of speed is gotten from this short hull design, only 16 feet.

Jake have a correct answer : there are wave-piercers and wave-piercers and the name wave-piercer itself is very misleading. In principle the hull shape that was first used on the flyer A-cat can be made to work on any boat and for any boat weight, but you must really understand how it works. Many designers simply don't understand, but this doesn't prevent them to claim that they have improved on the concept anyway. There is alot of misunderstanding in this field. Nils Bunkenburg designed the Fox and FX-one while Eigner designed the Flyer A-cat, Hobie failed in these designs, Bimare tried and failed, even AHPC tried and failed with their mark 5 A-cat. AHPC bought the flyer hull shape and Bimare finally copied it right. Melvin appears to have understood the setup and designed the promising A2, AHPC got it right with the Capricorn F18. Phill Brander was on the mark from the start and has proven it with both the Blade F16 and F18. The jury is still out on the Ventilo's.

I think I will post a more detailed reply to Jakes post to explain.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Finally picked up my blade [Re: Wouter] #46210
03/21/05 11:41 AM
03/21/05 11:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 167
St Croix Virgin Islands
vicatman Offline
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St Croix Virgin Islands
the Fox is a bit heavy at 420lbs..but living in the caribbean where 15-20kt wind and 4-6 sea is quite normal, the weight isnt really an issue. The Fox moves well in those conditions..and it does pretty well in europe..I think the main reason the the Fox didnt make it in the US is the fact that it is built for the Euro f-20 class and the US I-20 isnt,,the main rival of the Fox...the US I-20 has a bigger main and a carbon mast.bigger "engine" and lighter..going boat for boat wasnt really a fair test

Re: Finally picked up my blade [Re: Jake] #46211
03/21/05 12:13 PM
03/21/05 12:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Jake gives a very good summery

Quote

I think Wouter mentioned it not too long ago. There are waver piercers and then there are wave piercers. A catamaran still needs to have sufficient volume in the bows to keep from submerging. Although the blade does have a reverse canted bow, it appears (in my opinion) to have considerable hull volume up front for when it is needed. Looking at the Fox, the bows are not only reverse canted but they are quite thin and not very tall. The Blade, by comparison, has a taller bow and is a bit thicker.



Don't let the raked back bow mislead you, the differences between say a Bim 18HT wave-piercer and the Blade F16 wave-piercer hulls is enormous. They are really two different hull designs. Also I really dislike the wave-piercer name as that is totally not linked to why these hulls work (or don't work). It has nothing to do with wave-piercing. Actually the Taipan 4.9 bow is far more wave-piercing than most hull designs out there and nobody recognises it as such simply because it doesn't have the raked back bow.

Actually the raked back bow is not important as well. It is merely the logical result of making the deck narrower than the hull at maximum width. This choice is totally linked to dive recovering and not to any increase in speed or reduction in drag. In fact you can not have a straight bow when you have a deck that is narrower than say the hull at 2/3 above the keel. Notice the bow shape on the Dart Hawk F18 ? This is totally the result of the very rounded decks gunwhales on this design.

So lets put an end to the wave-piercer name and the raked back bow fashion trend. Lets call these hull shaped flyer hulls after the first design that used this setup.

Flyer hulls work because the volume in the hulls have been redistributed relative to the older style hulls. Reserve bouyancy have been repositioned and even been interchanged with active bouyancy. The net result is that the force required to press the bows down rises far quicker than with conventional hulls. This means that the boat feels and behaves alot more stable in gusty conditions. A direct result is that the rig is moved about throught the air less; the platform oscillates less. This has nothing to do with waves being present of pierced. As if waves wear earrings ? (joke)

Anyways. Another result is that a Flyer hull shape bow requires MORE energy to be fully submerged than the bow of a normal hull design. The dive resistance has been increased. Now you can do two things. Either cut away bow volume to get back at the older conventional hull dive resistance (when that was more then enough) or leave it there and take the extra dive resistance as an improvement against diving and as improved dive recovery. Three guesses what the Blade F16 design has done ? Now make a similar guess about the FOX and FX-one. Nils was and is an A-cat sailor and their ratio between platform width, rig power and hull length is quite small so they can cut away the volume. However the Fox and FX-one have different ratios as the F16's and F18's have. Nils cut away the volume and the end result is predictable. As some may remember ; Phill has always said that the hulls shape needed to be adjusted to the F16 hull lengths; you simply can;t just copy the Flyer A-cat shape and expect to get a good hull. If you still do that than you simply don't understand what is going on.

Some designers (Bim 18HT) thought that the amount of volume was important and simply took an old conventional hull shape and trimmed the deck lines and cut the bow to a raked back bow to get with the trend. The end result is now well known among cat sailors. Boats with small dive resistance; beams hitting the top of waves and speed loss under spinnaker.

So it is not about reducing volume it is all about repositioning the volume in both vertical and horizontal directions. In some instances you may even decide to increase the volume while reducing the reserved volume.

What you want as a designer is a boat that has more than enough volume to lift the whole boat quickly over a wave when travelling at top speed WITHOUT the boat making a to big pitching movement or to sustain such a pitching movement for too long.

So what you want is a larger damping factor combined with a volume distribuation that feels to the wave like it is localized relative close to the centre of the hull. (this sentence is correct but I'll leave some of the secret covered, we don't want anybody to start popping out superior hulls)

What you want is that when a boat at top speed encounters a wave that it is quickly accellerated upwward (so it doesn't pierce the wave so much) while staying relatively level. This is exactly what the Flyer hulls do. They do in fact only pierce the waves a little in the front part before the hull is raised up above the wave again. The sterns then sink back a little in the top of the wave that has just passed. Thus keeping the boat relatively level but hugging the surface.

Any imitation flyer hull that has reduced the hull volume will simply enter the wave much deeper, probably take it on the beam and try to dive through the wave instead of going over it. In small wavelets this system will keep the boat level while not really reducing its drag, but in big waves this is system will stop a boat dead in the water.
If you concentrate to much volume under the mainbeam (FOX etc) and have too little volume in the extremeties than you'll also get into the wave to deep and risk taking it on the beam. An additional drawback is that you have rather inferiour dive resistance; possibly even have agrivates oscillation after a gust because the damping factor is too small. So such an imitation will have hot spots where it performance relatively well while in most other conditions it is inferior.

I personnally noticed some of these drawbacks in the FX-one several years back and Phill understood it immediately. Phill took great care not to fall into this trap of having too little volume or having it too centralized under the main beam.

So yes indeed they Blade F16 has relatively more volume in the bow than most other Flyer-imitations however this is not really the most important aspect. The Blade F16 hull design has distributed the volume in the right way and this makes a noticeable difference.

The Blade F16 does indeed have taller bows as well and this is important as well. I on the FX-one and Phill on other boats found that water running up the inclined decks at speed could hit the beamlandings and initiate a violant pitchpole. By having truly faired beamlanding and a raising the deck with taller bows the Blade F16 doesn't take as nearly much water on the deck and beams. This makes a huge difference as well.

One more advantage of not having the volume so centralized (FX-one) is that you don't end up with such a stern dragger. That was the other dislike I personally had about the FX-one. In aggerated wording ; it felt as if the FX-one either wanted to drag its stern or dip its bows. The FOX has a little less of this as far as I can tell. I haven't sailed the FOX that often.

I hope that both the Bim sailors and Hobie FOX/FX-one will forgive me for using their boats as examples but these did provide a good way of explaining what is going on.

In the extreme cases (Both the Bims and FX/FOX are more of a compromise) the centralized volume boats are the worst performing flyer imitations (sorry hobie sailors) and the reduced volume boats are good in some conditions and inferiour in most other conditions when compared to true Flyer style hulls. At this moment it appears that Flyer, A2, Object (Tim Kirkhams A-cat design), newest Bim XJ, Capricorn F18, Blade F16 and Blade F18 are the only designs that have gotten it right. Ventilo's designs are yet to young to pass comment upon. The other imitations went wrong somewhere along the way.

What to take away from this post. Forget the name wave=piercer, talk only of flyer style hulls. Forget about the generally accepted phenomenon of wave-piercing; it is actually inferior to thinking behind conventional hulls. Think only in terms of proper volume distribution and wrong volume distribution. Don't believe the hypes or look up to big names to much; Even guys like Nils Bunkenberg, Lalo Petrucci and Jim Boyer can get it wrong.

I hope this explains a few things.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
I'm truly sorry to inform you ... [Re: vicatman] #46212
03/21/05 12:23 PM
03/21/05 12:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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I'm truly sorry to inform you that the FOX is dead in Europe. I don't even think that Hobie France has produced any in the last 2 years.

It failed in direct comparison to the EU I-20 as well. And here the sailarea's are the same. You point about its trouble in the USA is however correct the US I-20's have more sailarea and are lighter.

I also need to inform you that the FOX isn't doing "quite well" in Europe. Most sailors now feel that a FOX is at a disadvantage to the EU F20's. No big names are sailing it anymore and as a result there hasn't been some good results for some time. Actually today a FOX being raced is a rare sight. In the Netherlands you are more likely to see a FX-one at the events and event that boat is relatively rare. It is truly not going well.

I agree that the FOX moves well in rought conditions. I found that too, but it overall speed is inferiour to the I-20's (both in EU and USA) and it is most likely the large hull length - width ratio that keeps its dive behaviour acceptable. For example if we had used its hulls shape for the F16 than it would be a dive-nightmere. Sorry, we know as we, well, have quite a few experimental data pointing to this.

Regards,

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Finally picked up my blade [Re: vicatman] #46213
03/21/05 12:31 PM
03/21/05 12:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Vicat man,

You wrote :

Quote

veerry nice!!!! just one question...how is it the Fox has been knocked for such a poor hull design(wave pericing),yet many of the new models especially the A-cats are very similar??..


Simply because the others don't have the same hull design as the Fox and FX-one. There are significant differences. Sure they all have the raked back bows but saying that the hulls are the same as a result (similar) is almost like calling a red toyota and a red Pontiac the same (similar)

The raked back bow (and inclined decks etc) are not the key elements of a flyer hull design and it imitations.

I fear that that both the FOX and FX-one had received some heat because the failed to show an improvement over more conventional designs while the Flyer A-cats did show and edge over the more conventional A-cats. So somethign got wrong in the translations somewhere and many blame the design for that. Not entirely unfair I think. But I do admit that sometimes bad things are attributed to the Fox and FX-one that they don't deserve.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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