While I was down in Key Largo today picking up half of my new boat (long story.....) Rick showed me the new setup he has on his T4.9. It seems everyone is having problems with the metal bars that are supposed to keep the rudders down. Rick had one of his break off at Gulfport. I took some pictures, I'm sure Rick can explain how he set it up better. Basically the Bungee keeps pressure on the rudder (pulling it up) while the line in the cleat holds it in place. When the rudder needs to kick up, it pulls the cleat up and the bungee pops the rudder up. Seems to work real good. I'm sure my explanation is probably too long-winded and unnecessary so here's the pics.

Here is pic 2:

I have the newer AHPC carbon stocks and kick-up system. They replaced the old glassfibre rod by a heavier on and I will go on record by saying that I'm quite happy with this setup. I sail of the beach and on the sea so typically I have a surf to get through when going out and coming back in. I found that you best do a few things differently but when doing so I'm more happy with this system than the ones I used on both Prindles and older Nacra. I also prefer it over the newer Hobie and Nacra systems in some conditions while in others prefering the newer Hobie and Nacra systems.

Wouter

Guess I don't know what carbon stocks mean, but if it is still a rod system, it doesn't work very well around here.
The system I am now using is similar to the simple NACRA cleat it down and bungee it up system.., clean, easy, cheap and it works better than anything else.

After Gulfport I gave Seth all the remaining, unbroken rods from the Taipan system and said I will never use them again. If I couldn't find another system, I would sell the boat. That is how much I dislike the stock system.

Good example. I had a great start against 200 boats in the Miami-Key Largo Race and was out with Bill Roberts big boat and honkin' when I noticed I had a lot of kelp on the boards and rudders. So, I cleaned the boards and when I pulled up on the dumb rod to raise the rudder, the entire rudder system jumped off the pintle.
It took me almost a half hour to get them back on.
Never again.

And, of course, in Gulfport one of the rods snapped and I had to borrow one from Seth. Wrong size and I had a lot of helm and the boat was 20% slower.

Rudders can be the Achille's heel of some great designs, i.e., the infamous Mystere rudder system that would allow the rudders to pop up in deep, clear water.., and then when you went over a sand bar or came into the beach, they would stay locked down. Saw some Worrell 1000 Mystere boats rip off their transoms coming into the beach.., hot rudder system alright.
Rick

Awesome system Rick. I like it. I have been looking at my rudders as well, as I am not happy with the setup I have. If my rudders pop up, that means I just bent and warped beyond recognition a stainless steal screw, which is a pain in the you know where to replace, specially if its all bent to hell.

Question, can you adjust the rake in the rudders? if so how?
Is the bungee strong enough to hold them in the up position once they pop up?

Hey Robi,
I'm sure Rick's at the Tybee start today but I can tell you they do hold the rudders up - the bungee is what pulls it up there is a lot of force there. The line hold the rudder down from the bungee popping it up. So you can also set the line to keep the rudders partially down as well if conditions warrent it. Does that make sense?

Robi,
One of many problems with the rods is they are set up or down.., and nothing in between. Not good while going through shallow water (i.e., the Steeplechase), beaching or going out through the surf.
With this system you can set the rudder at half way down to still maintain steering.
Rick

Funny that is just one of the reasons why I like it.

The nacra cleat system afterwhile wears out and the line starts slipping and draggy the blades. But as with many things on my boat; I've done a few things differently than the stock designs.

For example I have pintles with a little whole in the top that takes a ring. I don't have the snap on system. Ergo My stoock can never come of their pintles unless someone has forgotten to place back the ring after fitting the stocks.

Also my (new) rod seem to me to be more rubust than on the older Taipans. I don't see it break any time soon. The diameter is too large for that. I also think it is a tube rather than a rod now. This new rod is standard on the Taipans since 2002 I believe.

Also I have a M8 or bigger adjustment threading on my rod. So I (and everybody) else can adjust to the required length within a minute). Jennifer had trouble with the locking nutt coming undone but I fix this with a bit of self galvanising rubber tape. I have no such problems. I do hear that McKenzies rudder rods use a M6 threading that can bend during kick-up action. I will contact Tony and notify him of that. But this is an issue with the implementation of the rod system, not a fundamental issue with the system itself. Again I have a M8 or M10 threading there and "That ain't gonna bend" ! So Robi, I think this may be your problem.

Also kicking up when coming on to the beach. This is a good way to shave down the tips of your rudder blades. Luckily with the AHPC stocks I have I don't have to do this. The rudderblade jams a little in the stock on the forward edge. When approaching the beach I just reach back grap the rod in the middle and lift it out of the locking hole. Than I through it back over the blade in the water. The rudder stays in the stock even at speeds of some 10 miles and hour. So I can steer properly throught he surf (and we do have significant surf over here !) and as soon as a tip hits the ground the rudder blade unjams and floats up. Works great, much better (in my experience) than any Prindle, Nacra or Hobie setup. With prindle setups I always felt like the locking mechanism could take the pintles off when not perfectly adjusted. Bend rudder pins were often the result.

Now I do my fair share of shallow water sailing and surf sailing. They last thing I want are trailing rudders or ones that are only partly down.

Now, I'm not saying that your systems aren't giving you lots of troubles, you guys know best. However I am saying that I got the same rod system (with a few difference to your systems) and mine just operates just fine.

You know as with everything, a builder needs to design things properly. The difference between a well designed Hobie system and a well designed Rod system can be really small, however the differences between badly designed ones can be really big.

All I'm saying here is that the Rod system appears to me like it can be made to work really well. So the problems are not the intrisic property of the system used but of the particular implementation.

Wouter

Hi all,

have to agree with Wouter on this one, I do not find any inherent problems with rod rudder system. Altered uses A class AHPC rudders that I bought with boat which are the same as Taipan ones, these have been working on boat for around 5 years and no sighn of problems and most of the Taipans I see in OZ still seem to be using them. I have hit bottom with mine a number of times accidentaly and they have always popped up without damage.

Regarding pulling the whole lot of back of boat in OZ it is a safety requirement that all pintles have to have a cross hole drilled in them and a pin or ring clip securing them so they can not fall off, just as centreboards must also be tied to boat in such away they can never fall off in a capsize or whatever. Both of which I would suggest is a good idea regardless of safety regulations in your country.

Regards Gary.

I saw a neet system yesterday at the Mug race. There was a Marstrom A cat who hooked a crab pot while maneuvering for his start. I thought "He's screwed, take him at least 5 minutes..." no, he reaches back, flicks something, the rudder pops up, he then pushed the tiller arm and click, the rudder is back down. Took him 5 seconds. I didn't get to look at it up close but it sure worked slick. So whatever the Marstrom system is, take a look at it. You can then put what ever rudder blade you like in it.

I like the Nacra 20 system, the pintles clip on, (no frigg'n rings to drop in the sand!!) you can lift both rudders from one side of the boat, without having to reach back and undo something on the rudderhead, you can actually just lift the hiking stick and unlock, then raise both rudders without having to leave your seat. They kick up if you hit the shore hard, but won't kick up for something like sea weed. They are pretty stout, in two years of beachings, I never broke a rudder part.

Of course, the trade off is weight. They are pretty solid cast aluminum but I do like something you can rely on, as Rick has pointed out above, light isn't fast when it breaks.

I had lots of problems with a light system on the Javelin 2, it cost me several boats in every race when the rudders would pop up, for no reason, and if you ran aground or hit the beach, you couldn't get them up until you got off the boat and lifted the boat up.

I never had a minute of problems with the Nacra I20 system and I don't know if a couple of pounds is going to slow me down much, since I'm 15 lbs. overweight anyway!

Two problems with the rope system:

1. in the picture you can see the line is chafing already. So, you have to replace it and keep an eye on it.

2. You still have to go to each side of the boat to get them both up and down, which is not always possible if it's blowing and you are comming in to shore fast, in surf. You can easily flip if you go to the low side of the boat to unclip that rudder. F that!

All you have to do is get someone to build the Nacra system in carbon fiber so you can just lift the cross bar, both rudders pop up, you can put them back down by pushing back on the cross bar, without having to go to the low side at all.

We (The SA Mozzies) had the same system as the Auzzies use, we had the stocks made up in bent aluminium tubing and used a rod to hold the rudder down similar to the Taipan system. This system was responsible for about 25% of our fleet not finishing all the races in our nationals, launching in a 2ft (at most) beach break. The most unreliable useless system I`ve ever seen, have to agree with Rick. My set of compete stocks and rudders are sitting in my garage now.

We have mostly replaced this system with Dotan rudders, and several months later no-one has had any problems. In the Cape Point Challenge I sailed straight up the beach without touching anything, the way it should be in 3m swell with waves breaking over you as you beach. If I had to go to leeward and fiddle with a rod, throw it over the back etc the way I used to, we would have capsized in the surf for sure. They are a very pricey option for us given that anything imported costs a lot more with our &^%# currency, yet they are worth the price for sure.

www.dotan.com , and never look back (And is probably the system seen on the M20 mentioned earlier.)

Steve

My MK IV A cat had a first genration of the system you saw on the Marstrom. The downhaul line ran through a carbon tube and exited behind the rear beam to pop-up cleat. A buungee raised the rudder when the line was released. Later versions that the Marstroms have been using run the carbon tube to just behind the daggerboard trunk and exit through a turning block to the opposite side. So you can raise or lower the rudder from the high side.

You can also rig up a system like the modified NACRA system which uses a cleat mounted on the boat or, as I did on my old A cat, is mounted on the front of the rear beam. The downhaul line from the rudder ends in a small block. A separate line goes from the rear beam directly ahead of the rudder, through the downhaul line block and then back to either a kickup cleat like Rick is using or through the rear beam and exits through a turning block with the cleat mounted on the rear beam and the line extending to the other side of the boat which can be cleated or uncleated from either side then. Murray's used to have a photo of this system in their catalog.

Kirt

Looked over the Dotan system, Looks swell. Which one of the rudder Blades would you Suggest for a F-16? The Rudder 25 or the Rudder 20 and which profile?
Thanks

The Dotans might have changed since I tested them, but back then there were two rudder positions -- full up and full down.
That simply will not work in our area and for distance races or races off and on beach, i.e. Tybee 500, Steeplechase, etc.
You need a rudder system that goes up only as deep as the water is. If it pops all the way up, you have NO steering. Scary in the surf.

Also the plastic heads were quite flexible and I saw a lot of yawing, allowing the blade to not be stiff.

Again, this was tests we ran when they first came out. They may have made many improvements since then. Hope so.
Rick

OK, another option killed.
Any info on the Marstrom Rudder Setup, Rick.
A link, pictures, a diagram, someone's boat that has them?
Hard to find any meaningful info on most of this from the manufacturers.
Cary

It's not the same used on the M20 or the Tornado?

http://www.marstrom.com/item_show.asp?code_no=M601

Marstrøms Tornado setup works well and is easy to operate.

Rolf:
Thanks for the link. I had already found that one. Picture is too small to make out any real details.
Surely someone here has a decent sized picture of a Marstrom Rudder setup. . .. .. .

Marstrøm's setup

Or just find any pictures of a Marstrøm Tornado setup (they are a bit different). If you can't find any decent pictures, I can go down to the garage and shoot some.