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#49040 - 05/11/05 12:05 PM The Taipan 5.7 *****  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 87
jimi Offline
journeyman
jimi  Offline
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 87
Trondheim, Norway
I have a few questions about the T 5.7. My dad and I are the proud owners of a T5.7, and to this day (sailed the boat two seasons), we have not met one boat, except for the 60' trimarans, that can outsail us. Living in Norway, the competition is not exactely big, so this really does not say much. I therefore wonder just have quick the T5.7 really is? Could it match a Tornado Sport giving the same conditions in terms of the crew's skills and of course wind and weather? How much faster would a 10' beam make the T5.7? Or a carbon mast?
As it is now, the T5.7 weighs in at approx. 145kg fully rigged with a chute. The custom, 9.5 meters aluminum mast weighs about 20 kg. How much would a similar carbon mast weigh? 15 kilos?
I see that according to the Portsmouth Yardstick, the T5.7 has got 8 to 10 boats under 25' that are rated faster. Is it really possible to determine which boat is faster through these rating systems? I know that the f18ht for instance is rated higher than the T5.7. This despite the fact that the T5.7 has got a longer water length, more sail area, and is only 10-15 kilos heavier. How can this be?
Also I wonder if any of you on the forum can put out some of your speed records, it would be fun to watch how fast the different cats go. Any of you know the theoretical top speed for the T5.7? Any of you tested it? smile.gif
Jimi

-- Have You Seen This? --
#49041 - 05/11/05 03:59 PM Re: The Taipan 5.7 [Re: jimi]  
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Posts: 1,021
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
5.7 with 10ft beam and carbon rig:

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#49042 - 05/11/05 04:00 PM Re: The Taipan 5.7 [Re: macca]  
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macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Mast and self tacker

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#49043 - 05/11/05 04:02 PM Re: The Taipan 5.7 [Re: macca]  
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macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
mast close up at hounds

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#49044 - 05/11/05 05:52 PM Re: The Taipan 5.7 [Re: jimi]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
Lance Offline
enthusiast
Lance  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL, USA
I have just purchased one of the three T5.7's in the US. I have not sailed it yet but I have done a lot of research on the boat.
From everything I have read the Taipan has the ability to keep pace with the Tornado and most of the other 20 footers with sailing ability becoming the deciding factor. The biggest problem with the 5.7 is keeping it depowered enough to be effective when the wind starts to blow. The boat was designed specifically for a heavy crew (over 150kg/330 lbs). The new F18 Capricorn did trounce the 5.7's in the Aus Taipan Nationals, showing that hull design is more important than being lightweight in this case, the Capricorn being 80 pounds heavier to meet class specs. Everyone that I have talked to that has sailed one has really liked them and the speed that they produce. I am very excited and proud to own one and can't wait to put many miles on it.
AHPC's Taipan 5.7 page
TAIPAN CATAMARAN ASSOCIATION OF AUSTRALIA


Lance
Taipan 5.7 USA 182
Palm Harbor, FL
#49045 - 05/11/05 06:33 PM Re: The Taipan 5.7 [Re: Lance]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


There were actually a few Dutch sailors at the Taipan Nationals this year. I overheard one of them commenting on both the 4.9's and 5.7's. Comment on the 5.7's, that were beaten by the F18's, is that the sail plan is outdated. The spinnaker cut used on these is still pre 2000. Which means rather full and with a long foot. Also the 5.7's were sailing with class legal sails, meaning very small squaretops. The overlapping jib doesn't help on a spi boat; selftackers are better. Also the skill of the 5.7 sailors in these racers there was not considered by this sailor to be of the same level as the F18's. Comment on the 4.9's was that the skill level there was impressive and that they had trouble getting away from the 4.9 while these were sailing without a spi that the 5.7's were using.

This sailors also said that with a new sail wardrobe the 5.7's would probably be a monster speedwise in light to medium air. From other comments I gether that teh 5.7 becomes a handful in strong weather. The newer large squaretop sails with a straight leech may help out here.

As always the path to succes was for the 5.7 class to renew herself. However, fear gripped the class and any chance was frowned upon and actively discourage. One-designess would garantee survival, it was thought. Reality showed that it didn't.

It is hard to say but T5.7 OD class is dead, without a change to revive. So forget about the OD rules and modify that sweetheart in all she can be and it will be a real killer in her new cloths. Tornado's and I-20's should be easy meat in anything but the really rought weather.

Don't look at the US portsmouth numbers, these things are all-over the place when it comes to rare boats. T5.7 especially has never been raced seriously in the US so its ratings are completely undependable. Look for the Australian VYC ratings to get a feel for what is can do. But with new stuff and new suit of modern sails it should be able to do several % better again.

Jimi, hope over to the Formula 16 forum and learn what you can there. The Taipan 4.9's and 5.7's are rather similar in setup and how they should be sailed. The mods to the Taipans to make the full F16's will largely have the same effects on a T5.7

10 ft beam would make the 5.7 do well in strong winds but at some hit in the light stuff as she is a boat that is said to benefit alot from doing the wildthing (getting luff hull out of the water at all times)

15 kg for a carbon mast that length sounds about right for a low estimate. The 10 mtr F18HT mast is supposed to be 18 kg's same and is the same as the I-20 masts. Tornado carbon is 15.5 kg if I remember it right.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#49046 - 05/11/05 10:22 PM Re: The Taipan 5.7 [Re: Lance]  
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Posts: 1,655
catman Offline
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catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

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Posts: 1,655
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Hey Lance,I heard you bought the T5.7. When are we going to see it at the causeway?


Have Fun
#49047 - 05/11/05 11:35 PM Re: The Taipan 5.7 [Re: catman]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
Lance Offline
enthusiast
Lance  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL, USA
Probably not for another month or so. I still have to get a new trailer for it and I will probably be replacing most of the lines and all of the bungees for sure. In the meantime I will probably keep it at GYC. I can't wait to get everything done. Once everything's done I plan to spend a lot of time on it so you will be seeing a lot more of me out there.


Lance
Taipan 5.7 USA 182
Palm Harbor, FL
#49048 - 05/12/05 02:17 AM Re: The Taipan 5.7 [Re: Lance]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 87
jimi Offline
journeyman
jimi  Offline
journeyman

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 87
Trondheim, Norway
Thanks for so many useful tips! Macca, have you tested your Super T5.7 in heavy weather yet? Would have been interesting to get some feed-back! How has it done against other high-tech
boats?
I do agree with you Wouter that the sail robe for the T5.7 is outdated. My dad has already made a self-tacking system and bought a new jib that obviously does not overlap,though we have not had the chance to test it properly in a fair breeze. Also my dad is working on a kevlar/carbon- snuffer as we speak. These two modifications would do some good for the boat, don't you think? As far as the spi goes, would it not be necessary to change the whole rig in order to make it flatter and more "narrow" without loosing overall area? If you just shortened the foot, the whole spi would be smaller. I noticed that the new Hobie Tigers, even with almost a meter or so shorter mast, has the head spi point attached higher than the T5.7. This despite the fact that the Tigers have 2 sq.meters smaller spi's! Which truly underlines what you, Wouter, said, the T5.7's spi is too full and seems out-dated. So how make it more modern and flatter without changing the entire rig?

#49049 - 05/12/05 03:22 AM Re: The Taipan 5.7 [Re: jimi]  
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Posts: 1,669
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
With the exception of the spinnaker the sail plan of the 5.7 is not far of the pace. Could realy benifit from a self tacker.

Re 5.7 Vs Tornado...... No contest. T is bigger and a lot more powerful. Macca's super Taipan is yet to see water but when it does it should be VERY quick in light to twin wire conditions. When the wind builds and the T's find their legs the Super 5.7 should still be quicker but as the breeze increases, this margin should reduce.

5.7 class is now dead. AHPC have ceased production with not many built. Those that are left should move on and modify thier boats to cater for the kite as the class was never initialy designed to run it. Maybe also a 10 foot beam and carbon mast hey Macca .


#49050 - 05/12/05 04:25 AM Re: The Taipan 5.7 [Re: Tornado_ALIVE]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 87
jimi Offline
journeyman
jimi  Offline
journeyman

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 87
Trondheim, Norway
Macca, have you done any changes on your new carbon mast to make it match a flatter chute? Or do you use the custom 23 sq.meters spi?
My dad and I are now considering a carbon mast? We therefore wonder who made the mast for you? As we live in Norway, Marstrom would be natural choice.
Also, have you planned on entering any specific races, or is sheer blasting the main thought behind you upgrades? If so, have you logged any good speeds with this beast of yours?

#49051 - 05/12/05 04:53 AM Re: The Taipan 5.7 [Re: jimi]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
The boat should hit the water next weekend (21 May) and we are expecting it to be quicker than a Tornado in nearly all conditions.
The carbon mast was made by an Aussie manufacturer who makes yacht masts and used to make A Class masts. It is the same section as the normal 5.7 alloy mast and weighs just on 15kgs rigged. The mast is really stiff compared to the std mast which suits our wide boat.
The kite Halyard attaches a little higher than a std 5.7 and we have the pole a lot lower, this gives us a kite luff length a little longer than a T, Kite area is 26 sq meters.
I would get Marstrom to make a mast but they are not cheap, another option is the Fibrefoam mast from Scott Anderson, he can make a mast to suit and they are pretty cheap. We are planning on doing the long distance races here in Australia, there are quite a few of these races spread through the season. We just wanted to make the 5.7 perform as it always should have from the start.


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#49052 - 05/12/05 04:56 AM Re: The Taipan 5.7 [Re: jimi]  
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Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

I do agree with you Wouter that the sail robe for the T5.7 is outdated.


OF course as Steve says the current 5.7 rig is close in pace but it must be seen as in the light of the difference of a 1998 Tiger rig with respect to a 2004 Tiger rig. The 2004 Tiger rig with the STX mainsail (very large head) is just quicker. Same with the 5.7 standard rig. It was very good and good for the 90's but not for the 00's. F18 class has really stimulated alot of development in this area. The 5.7. should benefit from it.


Quote

As far as the spi goes, would it not be necessary to change the whole rig in order to make it flatter and more "narrow" without loosing overall area?


With respect to the spi :

Don't work yourself up over the total area. This is unimportant. Important things are the modern cut and the luff length. Optimize these two without any regard for the total area. So if the modern cut can only be 20 sq. mtr. in the given setup than go for that. There is no point in trying to sqeeze 25 sq. mtr. in and thus compromise on the cut.


Quote

If you just shortened the foot, the whole spi would be smaller. I noticed that the new Hobie Tigers, even with almost a meter or so shorter mast, has the head spi point attached higher than the T5.7.


Can you mearure the height of your spi gate with respect to the bottom of your mast for us. The same with the hound fitting and the overall length of the mast ?

I think you can put the mast gate higher on the T5.7 than it is now. We did the same with the Taipan 4.9's and have no problems. The mast is holding up well under the F16 spi. So I feel a similar thing can be done on the T5.7


Quote

the T5.7's spi is too full and seems out-dated. So how make it more modern and flatter without changing the entire rig?


What is he sheeting point of your current spi ? Both along the hull and perpendicular to the centreline ?

Some mods can be in order here as well.

Quote

So how make it more modern and flatter without changing the entire rig?


That is easy. You will have to buy a new spi but apart from that the mods are both easy to do and inexpensive.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#49053 - 05/12/05 04:58 AM Right on ! [Re: macca]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Macca,

Finally some good minds working on the Taipan 5.7 design.

What are the specs on your mainsail. How big is your head. Do you pics of the boat with the rig on ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#49054 - 05/12/05 06:07 AM All pics in one post ! [Re: macca]  
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Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#49055 - 05/12/05 06:09 AM Re: Right on ! [Re: Wouter]  
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Posts: 1,021
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
The Main head is less than the new tiger mainsail heads, I have a number of reasons for this and most of those I will keep to myself, but suffice it to say that there is little point having a massive head if it is always hooked when you want it breathing. There are factors other than the visual head size that help the new tiger mainsail outperform the older versions.
The head of the sail on the new rig is stepped so that at the second batten it is much bigger than the tiger sail.

I guess some pics would help! I will get some this weekend when we are doing the final setup of the boat. That should keep the interest up a bit


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#49056 - 05/15/05 06:33 AM where are the batten tensioners??? [Re: macca]  
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macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
New super taipan mainsail head

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#49057 - 05/15/05 06:36 AM rig profile [Re: macca]  
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macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
funky new sails

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#49058 - 05/15/05 06:38 AM Re: rig profile [Re: macca]  
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macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
shot from the middle of the foot with a little downhaul tension and some sheet tension but not max.

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#49059 - 05/15/05 09:59 AM Re: rig profile [Re: macca]  
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Robi Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Robi  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Are those sails Kevlar fiber?

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