Sam,grant money has nothing to do with paranoia,big brother???

What I'm saying if a Co. that was in trouble and needed money (and would you agrue they weren't at the time?) could get it by way of a grant for coming up with something like a comptip would they do it?

Well documented lawsuit.....whatever. Are you sure you know everything that went on with this issue? Of all the sailboat builders in the world, Hobie was the only one to cave on this issue?

This is not something I made up, rather heard about.

Do I have this right? Hobie can sell boats made in Europe here with soild masts but they can't build them here with solid masts......Food for thought.

And yeah, at the time I was ticked that I had to cut up a perfectly good mast to race.

I can image that carbon masts are bad conductors. While carbon fibre will conduct very well the epoxy "matrix" (or whatever you guys call it) does not. So in basis the carbon fibres are inbedded in isolator material The current will first have to jump these obstructions to get to the fibre and then cross those layers once again to get to your hands. At very high voltages this can be done, but only with alot of heat creation. This probably explains why it burns up before really conducting alot of current.

It all makes sense to me.

Wouter

Ok, so who's running their carbon fiber mast under a power line for a test?

You heard it from someone else that heard it from someone else... it must be true right? Not. There was no "grant" involved.

The CompTip was a response to people dieing from mast-contact electrecutions. Hobie Cat made this decision to solve the problem... not just defend the result in court as other companies chose to do.

Hobie Cat had an obligation to protect its customer base. To do that, Hobie Cat also gave away tens of thousands of retro fit kits at a huge expense.

The unfortunate side effect was changes to the class equipment, but less than 10% of the boats are or were involved in racing. Class racing could not be a determining factor.

Remember... we are talking about US courts and sue happy Americans. It has not been an easily reached agreement to allow the Tiger and FX to be sold here with their standard masts. The fact that they are Built by a different company... Hobie Cat France makes a huge difference.

A good source,and a paulsible story. I really don't think the person would make up something like this.

Just something I heard and thought would be interesting to discuss here and find out if it was true. I guess Matt cleared it up.

He is, afterall, pretty much an authority!

By the way, only a dry clean comptip is a good insulator.

An old comptip that has absorbed moisture and salt is probably about like a carbon mast.

Matt,
That is total corporate B.S.
I am sure your bosses will be proud.
We will never know the details of the lawsuit because it is locked up in a non-disclosure agreement, but some facts are public knowledge.
That Hobie has never advertised the comptip as a safety feature. On the contrary they advertise it as a "performance" feature.
That Hobie was owned by Coleman Inc., a public company, at the time of the introduction of the comptip.
That all public companies are required by federal law to uphold their fiduciary responsibilities to their stockholders.
Which means that ALL of their design, production, marketing, etc, etc, actions must be for improving the value or profitability of the company.
History has shown that anytime the officers of a publically held company do anything or even say anything which hurts the bottom line, they can be sued and will usually loose.
Any retrofit of a "safety feature" has always been brought about because the bean-counters figured that it was cheaper for the company to fix problems than to fight, not necessarily loose, lawsuits.
Giving away comptips hurt the bottom line.


A perfect example is the exploding Ford Pintos.
Documents stolen from Ford Corp. showed that they had figured out that it would cost many millions of dollars to reteofit a less than ten dollar safety feature on the existng Pinto but it would cost half as much to pay off the burn victims and their families.
The documents were disallowed at trial, so Ford won and didn't have to fix the old Pintos.
THAT IS THE COPORATE WORLD.

It often cuts the other way, that is, unfairly against a large corporation or industry. General aviation is an industry that has been hurt unfairly, for instance, by product liability lawsuits.
Piper aircraft went out of business a few years back *precisely and exclusively* because of their policy of fighting each and every product libility lawsuit that came along.
Low sales were not the problem; Piper had over one BILLION dollars in backlogged firm orders when they went under! (And remeber they only made little airplanes!)
The 'last straw' lawsuit involved a single engine Piper that crashed shortly after T/O when the engine failed. Piper did not make the engine, of course, but Piper was ajudged liable since they "failed to provide a second engine to permit a safe return to the airport in case of engine failure". How freaking ridiculous is that?!
If we followed that logic, soon there would be NO beach cats (except homebuilt) beacause legal precedents would inevitably arise attacking each and every shortcoming of the class when compared to a 'state of the art' transport category vessel. That's where GA was headed; thankfully the congress intervened. Otherwise the cheapest airplane you could buy right now would be the cheapest transport category aircraft which meets all gov't safety stds. and cost about $4 million.
That would be like suing the maker of a beach cat because it does not have a motor to ensure saftey in case of becalming, or life boats in case of sinking or WHATEVER! If you operate one of these boats, then you know and hopefully assess and manage these risks properly within the context of your life, rather than relying on blamesmanship after the fact.

Just One Man's Opinion

Jimbo

Interesting perspectives and info from all of you.

Now wondering, with tongue in cheek, as one may conclude:

1. Comptips are of questionable value as a safety feature.
2. Comptips detract from optimal sail performance.
3. Lawyers love to make money, pursue public/private corporations, have little to no interest in public safety and will gleefully pursue a lawsuit to a worthless (to the public) outcome.
4. Legally, rectifying the problem with the utility company's is far too big a challenge for any lawfirm.
5. And, you cannot litigate common sense.

OK...Jake, let's get a bunch of attorneys to test out your carbon fiber mast with a high voltage line theory. Solves one problem.

Sail on, Tom G

Sounds like a job for them boys on Mythbusters

Jimbo

Oooooooooo....that would be cool...Poor 'ol Buster would get it again!

Sam, your ingorance on the introduction / marketing of the Comptip is appalling.



Oh, really? And your source of this information is . . . ?
Another case of "I read it on the Internet, so it must be true." Why don't you ask Doug Campbell, the president of Hobie Cat at the time (1984-85), who is still very much involved with the class? (He was on the jury at the Tiger Worlds just a few weeks ago)

Better yet, I'll talk to Doug face-to-face when I see him at the 16 NA's next month. He'd probably think you're some sort of tin-foil hat wacko.

Or why don't you track down Walt Millar, who was Hobie Cat's corporate attorney at the time, specializing in product liability defense, particularly electrocution cases?



"Never" is a very absolute term. A quick Google search for "Comptip" blows that "fact" away. Right now, I'm looking at the article in the Hobie Hotline (Jan/Feb '86) that introduces the Comptip and the retrofit program. The title? "This Tip Could Save Your Life" In the article, Doug Campbell admits that there is a slight performance loss in moderate air.

I will agree that they currently market it for both "safety and high-wind performance," which strangely enough, is true. (Nobody ever said marketing = truth)

You know what? Comptips have been around for twenty years. They're not going away. Get over it already.

And stop slagging Matt Miller, who's done more to improve the quality of the boats coming out of Oceanside than anybody before or since. You don't know him or his bosses. I do - and what you imply is tin-foil hat rediculous.

Flame on, Sam the Troll.

I think you are being a little too harsh on the fellow. He just loves a good conspiracy. If there's none to be found, then just create one!

Here's great page where he can get his fill:

http://www.alternet.org/story/14873

(I think I saw the comptip thing WAY down toward to bottom of the list)

Just stirrin the pot,

Jimbo

Ok Matt,
If I am wrong have Matt Miller et al step up and state unequivocally that Hobie, in any of it's company names, was not sued by someone, or there family, who was electrocuted.
And that there was no agreement which caused them to put on the comp-tip and or the "non-conducting" tller extension..
No half-truths, no vague comments, no marketing B.S., just simple straightforward facts.
Just the truth.

What "quality of boats"?
If what they produce now is an improvement, I am surprised any of the previous boats floated.
The only quality is being produced in europe.
I bought a new sail for my Hobie 17 last year, CRAP, CRAP, CRAP
It is cheap, flimsy, one-sided mylar which will only last for a few years.
I pay the same square-foot price as the Tigers, but we are stuck with CRAP

You childish name-calling has zero effect on me.
You should know that by now.
If any company representatives don't want to be challenged when they post B.S., they shouldn't not post.

Keep sucking up to Hobie Corp., maybe they will let you be president of IHCA next.

Sam, I love you , man. Slow down when you read, though.

1) I never (there's that absolute word again) said that Hobie Cat hasn't been sued for electrocution accidents - on the contrary, they have been many times. I question the existence of a non-disclosure agreement, and requested proof.

And I do plan to talk with Doug Campbell next month re: the Comptip.

2) The 17's sail is mylar taffeta ("one-sided") as required by the specifications submitted to ISAF when it became an international class back in 1989. The material was state of the art back then, but isn't anymore. I bought a new 17 sail in 2002 and was quite pleased with it's shape and quality of construction (2 top 5 finishes in the North Americans). If you have specific problems with your sail, then I suggest you contact the warranty dept at Hobie Cat - Matt Miller. And don't be such a dick about it. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

3) Defending people whom I consider my friends is not "sucking up."

4) Hobie Cat doesn't have the political pull within IHCA to get anybody elected president. Besides, I have no desire for that position.

>2. Comptips detract from optimal sail performance.<

This did not happen with the TheMightyHobie18 when the C-tip came out. I raced the TheMightyHobie18 during the transition period, and WHEN I switched to the Comptip it clearly made the boat faster, both upwind and down, forcing others to quickly upgrade.



This was not true of the H16. Perhaps, they could have worked on the sail shape more, but would have obsoleted the current fleet of sails.

In the late 90's the top H20 skippers were radically recutting the luff curve for the comptip as the C-tip would prematurely flatten the top of the sail. Did Hobie finally came around and recut their sail to match what the experts where doing to theirs?

Wasn't there a tread on flexible tips for gust response? From '76-'80+ the Tornado's (D or E section) had quit a bit of tapper for gust response.

Now with spinnakers it is a new ballgame.

Not directly related, but a buddy of mine flew into powerlines with a carbon fibre hangglider, it bridged the wires, heated up, started melting and dropping balls of burning goo, started a brush fire under him, leading to him cutting his hang straps, falling about 30 feet into the fire and rolling to safety, bruised and scorched. Don't know what this proves, but it was pretty amazing to watch!

Never heard that one... We have made no changes to the 20 patterns in recent history. The sails on every boat including and after the Hobie 17 were designed for the CompTip.

Sam, I am never sure where you are coming from. I gave you all the information you needed and honestly. No one here has ever said we did not get sued... of course we did. We had the "deep pockets". You are truly “beating a dead horse” when arguing the decision about CompTips. Like Matt Bounds said… that was 20 years ago.

By the way, Hobie Cat spearheaded a national campaign to get power companies to raise their lines as well. There was a lot of effort put in to this issue. Many of the same people at the top of the company back then are still here. They are truly caring people and I can tell you with complete confidence that protecting people, not just corporate money, was a major force in this change to the CompTip.

It is well recognized that USA boats are of the finest made World Wide. We proved that at the 16 Worlds in Cancun. Each 16 Worlds before that, for several events, had big problems with boats or hardware... our hosted event with USA boats came through with huge acclaim from the international sailors. Virtually ZERO breakdown points had to be awarded for the event. There had also been a lot of concern voiced by those international sailors that CompTips were not up to the demanding use and conditions of international competition. Wrong... they were stellar! The 16 sailed perfectly with them. The difference in performance to the all aluminum mast is negligible and that depends on the conditions. Yes, high-wind sailing has actually shown an advantage using the tip.

Sam, I am still confused as to why you tend to bash our company. I am sorry for whatever has upset you in your past dealing with us.

Interesting what you say about the 20 mains. My 20 (a '94, with significant repairs to the starboard hull for some kind of bulkhead separation and cracking BTW) had a main that had been recut by the original owner. I always liked the shape of that sail and how it set and performed - it seemed to behave differently from other people's sails, as to what it liked for settings and such, and it seemed fast even for its age. I had always assumed the recut was to correct any manufacturing issues, but your comment now leads me to believe he did the mod you're mentioning. I had always heard that there was a difference between the cut of the original 20 sails and the newer ones, with different tuning techniques to get the best of either. I could never tell if that was legend or truth, but I knew my sail was different...

On sails and shape - the original main for my Hobie-18 was horrible. I had to measure out the sail, and each batten required different tensions (some loose, some crammed in hard) to get a near consistent shape. I then bought a brand new main from Hobie that was absolutely beautiful - battens ony tight enough to take out the wrinkles gave a wonderful shape. So if things were bad, they certainly got better.

My 18 had an all metal mast - even though I had the comptip I never installed it, mostly because I knew I was going to add a spinnaker. That boat was raced open class successfully, the only 18s I came up against never seemed to offer much in way of competition, so I don't know if a good comptip boat would have been faster.