I guess that's what we (should) have insurance for TIMBO, but even insurance companies will baulk at paying out for damage caused through (what they consider) recklessly "going out" in obviously dangerous conditions, (read your insurance policies small print)

Thanks for that information MatMT, that was the sort of information that I was really asking about originally.
Although in many countries "organisers" of events have tried to limit their liability by similar clauses only to find out that in the case of someone sustaining "personal injury", that any clause trying to delegating responsibility away from the organisers in that way doesn't stand up under the law and they have been found to be responsible even with that entry clause/condition signed by the competitor.

I was in a similar situation last year when hit by a novice on a TheMightyHobie18 barging in a club race. His bow ended up spearing over the top mine, breaking my boom and through my mainy. Of course he wasn't insured, and there was no point in even arguing with him, let alone protesting. Darryl fixed the hull damage and my insurance paid for it, less excess. If I had a M20, I would be insuring it for replacement value even before it left the factory, just in case.

In the Sydney-Hobart of 1998, 6 or so (can't remember the exact number) people lost their lives. The subsequent enquiry did not indicate that any of these people or their skippers were irresponsible. They just got hit by a 1 in 50 year storm, the severity of which was not predicted by the Bureau of Met., until it was too late for many of the boats in the race. I understand in this situation individual boat insurance would not cover the loss of life. Only the public liability insuarance cover by the Race organisers would compensate the families of the people lost.

Phil

I just read above that a boat was not insured and yet taking part in a club race - Hopw come ? I assume the rules are different at your club. At mine we MUST have insurance to be allowed on the water and if there is any damage, there should be a protest to determine fault.



That is also shocking, how can someone be so cavalier about it. My answer would have been "See you in the protest room", got proof of his fault and then got his insurance details etc.

Shocking !

Many will call the next statement anti-americanism but there are two main streams of judiciary in the world. One based on the Angle-Saxon model (litigation) and the other is based largely on the French system of old. The last isn't suffering from litigation and here ill intend, malice or direct and glaring irresponsibility must be proven to be convicted. In some cases (SOME) official general responsibility may lead to guild but only in a few cases where the injured person had a obligation to follow.

Personally I'm rather happy with the French inspired system and I think the countries that are using it right now will do so for a long time to come.

WOuter

Just because the US pioneered litigation for no FREAKIN reason other than a payday, doesn't mean I like it. This is why my post was so hostile. I love living in the US but there are many things I don't like and do what I can to change. It just pisses me off to no end how quickly people want to blame someone or something for something they clearly had complete control over! The decision to sail or not sail is exactly one of those things!

One last point... I don't blame the lawyers, I blame the scumbags the hire the lawyers!

Rant off… for now

Okay how do you quantify "recklessly going out" or "obvious dangerous conditions" and who makes this assessment? The insurance company? That could be a little self serving!

Insurance companies being what they are, set the rules, they write the clauses, and they (mostly) decide whether or not a claim is justified, and being that it is in their self interests as to whether or not they "pay out" they are often a "fairly hard nut to crack". We (as the consummer) only have the choice of accepting their "policy" or rejecting it. If we reject it we have NO cover at all. If we accept it then we have to play by their rules.
If there is another option tell me (other than NOT sailing at all)

When you say that "there are two legal systems" Wouter" (forgetting for the sake of clarification on this point, Islam, China, Russia, and several other sovereign state and religious systems), the French and the Anglo Saxon systems, and that most countries follow one or the other, I have to add here that, although the US system may have "originally" been based on the Anglo Saxon system before the US constitution and their bill of rights were written, from that point on in "legal" time there has been one very important divergence that has created the grounds for this ability for "personal litigation" to grow within the US system at a far greater rate than throughout other countries who’s systems are also based on the "British" system. Within the US system the word "JUSTICE" appears, and that JUSTICE can be sought by any citizen of the USA wherever/whenever that citizen considers that they have been unjustly "set upon". As a consequence that legal system has been debating and exploring all the connotations of the effect of that concept ever since the formation of the USA as a sovereign state. As far as I am aware, in no other legal system based on the "Westminster" system does the written word "JUSTICE" even appear! All other Westminster systems proclaim to be the official organ to "UPHOLD and ADMINISTER" the LAW -vastly different from "JUSTICE". This variance creates a vast gulf between the practicing US system and the Westminster system used by many other countries.
Mind you the French system was created by a group of blood thirsty “revolutionaries" who liked to go around cutting off the heads of anyone who they thought was a “POLITICAL” enemy, so does any one image that JUSTICE was foremost in the minds of the people who wrote the French legal code?

Darryl,

I still think you have missed the point. It's your choice to sail or not. If you choose to sail then stand up and take responsiblity for your actions. If you get hurt or loose your boat it's on you! The organizers, the insurance company or God don't make your decisions, you do! So it's on you if you screw up!

For those racers to get upset because they broke their boat going through the surf and then blame the RC for not calling the race is just (to use Wouter's description) STUPID! Every one of the Texel teams pushed their boat into the surf under their own free will.

If you can't afford to break or loose your boat and you don't think your insurance company will pay out then your decision is easy and you have a tidy excuse for not sailing.

Besides were talking about 60 mile weekend distance race here. Honestly I probably would have stayed on the beach if I were at Texel, but I sure as hell wouldn't want the race called because I pussed out! That's been my point all along.

Regards,
Dave

I do get the point entirely Dave,
I am not "arguing" for or against, or whether or not the race should have or should not have been cancelled or whether or not anyone/everyone has the right to decide whether or not they will put their "toe in the water", I was just "putting the question" concerning "liability", and I have to say that there have been some excellent responces to that question. Its all good food for thought DAVE!
It has to be good for "we sailors" when people actively talk about ALL aspects of "the sport"

A fair number of UK policies have some clauses written into them; one I remember is that (my words) "the boat is not covered for damage sustained in a race started in above F6 bf"

Yes you are right, there more large streams in justice systems when including nations like China and systems like Islamic law. I should have specified my statement better. I was of course refering to the two main western lines of thought.

I agree on the differences of the US justice system to the Imperial (UK) system. You have a point there as well.

With respect to the French and the very popular French bashing. This is in contrast to your other comments. As if the US constitution was NOT written by revolutionaries and men who killed their politcial enemies (Brits and collaborators) or would sign a degree or ride out years later to kill some more natives. Lets face it, times in which such constitutions are written are always times of chaos and turmoil and this means the bad is present as well.

But maybe more importantly in this respect is that this French revolution of 1789 is TOO late. Most other European constitutions were already made by then. I was refering to the French systems of OLD. Meaning several hundred years before the 1789 French revolution and even as far back as Charles the Great (around 8th century AD).

But lets get back to sailing.

I think I had a good ins. policy, although I never tested it, from USAA insurance. I had to pay about double for the "racing" coverage, which they told me covered damage from colision or capsize, etc., hulls, mast, sails and equipment. I don't know if I would have had problems collecting if I had trashed the boat doing a Texel type race...

Obvioulsly if you go out in those conditions you are accepting some of the blame. But the fact that many did survive, complete the race with no get, and there was a new record set, could work in your favor when trying to collect, I would hope. I only worry about collisions with another boat which is out of control.

The best thing to do in that situation is find another skipper and tell him you will gladly crew for him, on HIS boat! Right Dave?? (re. Eustis a couple years ago, cold front) PS, Dave you need a refill on your 1design beers!!

A good insurance company gives the owner "great" piece of mind when he is sailing, but the best policy is to never have to make a claim, then your insurance policy is "fool proof" (slyly said with tongue in cheek)

Wouter there is a vert big difference between "French bashing" and just "taking the mickey" - my observations about the "French based systems" were "taking the mickey" - not of the system but, of your very serious reply to a light posting, (keep trying to lighten up a little, it suits you better)

Okay sorry.

Wouter

Round Texel 2005 results

I came across this while looking for something else (as usual!), so
am just adding a little info for the record...

This was due to some 125 boats (including ourselves alas!) missing the
first &/or second gates at the north end of the island. I believe the marks were the 2m x 1m dayglo orange cylinders used for the Open, but we never glimpsed ONE! Wind-over-tide up at the lighthouse produced a very interesting sea state....

Bart & Lonneke took a Hobie Tiger after helping us launch (and hurrooed their way past before Oudeschild).

Not having sailed at Texel before we carefully followed advice from our NL friends - the main theme being 'arrive around an hour early at the start' ; this misses the last-minute-rush-& no-control boats.
Presumably the surf got worse nearer to the start, we had more problems earlier in the week.

Yes, we were not really happy to continue, we already had some boat problems and in view of serious doubts as to 'sailing the course' as above, and capsising after running aground as well, it seemed sensible if rather unenterprising to pull into Oudeschild.
I think because it is so shallow on the Waddensee side, the rudder foils were suffering from 'ground effect' lift & this was disconcerting...

So...., we'll have to come back & do it all over another time! Regrettably I think this will be 2007 at the earliest.

rgds
Pete McD

Hiya Pete,
It seems a bit odd me saying welcome to an American forum.(With me only down the road from you )If you are not going to Texel this year, you could maybe travel over to "The Mainland" and do one of the F16 events. Check out this thread http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1 JP and some of the F16 sailors have organised a F16 circuit.
I hope to see you at the Northerns - are the Dutch contingent coming over ?
Say Hi to Dee. See you soon