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#53878 - 08/04/05 08:53 AM Re: I would like a copy ! [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Feb 2004
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scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

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Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Wouter et al,

Do you still need some things converted to PDF's

If so drop me a PM and I can send you my e-mail addy and I can do this PDQ



F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
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#53879 - 08/04/05 09:27 AM Blade sails by Ulman or... [Re: Wouter]  
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ejpoulsen Offline
old hand
ejpoulsen  Offline
old hand

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Central California
I believe the Glasers have started their own loft now:

http://www.glasersails.com/


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
#53880 - 08/04/05 09:55 AM Re: Blade sails by Ulman or... [Re: ejpoulsen]  
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Robi Offline
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Robi  Offline
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St Petersburg FL
if anyone is interested in helping me out with the transfer of the context over to the website, drop me a pm.

You must have some experience with CMS, and some knowledge of basic HTML language.

All volunteers welcomed. I cannot get to it until this weeked. Anyone willing to step up, by all means let me know.

#53881 - 08/04/05 10:00 AM Re: Blade sails by Ulman or... [Re: ejpoulsen]  
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sjon Offline
journeyman
sjon  Offline
journeyman

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Netherlands
Logo of glaser looks a lot like the old SMYTH or DANGER logo.
Are they still in business ?

JH

just like Dirk ex. A-cat (NED 6), and now F16 (to make it possible to sail with my son)and enjoying a nice Blade with Ashby sail

#53882 - 08/04/05 08:10 PM Re: Try contacting [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]  
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Darryl_Barrett Offline
old hand
Darryl_Barrett  Offline
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South Australia
Rolf, although I am not superstitious (not much anyway) I would still never photograph a sail with THAT number on it (oops I think I hear the devil calling for my soul at the "cross roads")?

#53883 - 08/04/05 10:40 PM SAils, Rigs: F-16...Asia [Re: Darryl_Barrett]  
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SkunkWORX Offline
newbie
SkunkWORX  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 28
Peninsular Malaysia
Agent Orange/Rhino Grey F-16's in Southeast Asia.
Have been watching the debate on the sails re: super big head etc...here are some of our ideas.

The sails on Agent Orange and Rhino are from Goodall's although we do have a set of Ashby's (blue Pentex) that we haven't tried yet. We know these sails will change our fleet forever as owners of the one-design Taipan will be upgrading their kit in a matter of time. The 'new' sails are a vast improvement over the 0ne Designs in terms of outright efficiency across the entire wind range.

Rigs are fully 'transplantable' i.e. we could lift the rig straight off Agent Orange and it fits right onto the Rhino Gret Taipan F-16. That's where we see the outright benefit of playing with the F-16 platform here and at the end of the day it will really show up the advantages/disadvantages off one hull shape over the other.

At the end of the day, we hope to have a fully developed platform that we can ship across to Europe next year so that sailors from our Fleet in Singapore can gain some valuable experience by racing in Europe.

The sails fit straight onto the standard Goodall Wing as used on the Taipan - no the mast isn't shorter as someone commented. I'd expect to see our entire 1-design (20 Taiapns) fleet to 'convert' to the new rig over the course of the next year.

As per the discussion on the website, we're trying to get F-16 happening in Southeast Asia and so we set up www.formula16-asia.org sometime back. It will be updated shortly as we now have enough development taking place locally to warrant more attention.

We've already seen how the new 'flat bottom' shape like the Blade is a big step forward in the manoeuvering stakes i.e. especially tacking where it is amazing. We've also seen how much improved the self-tacker on the Taipan is compared to the one-design! The trampoline now has a useful area and tacks are so much faster - something we weren't really expecting, but a nice bonus all the same!





#53884 - 08/04/05 10:56 PM Re: SAils, Rigs: F-16...Asia [Re: SkunkWORX]  
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Darryl_Barrett Offline
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Darryl_Barrett  Offline
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South Australia
Sounds all healthy for the class SkunkWORX and with 20 odd Taipans it really gives you opportunities for one hell of a good competitive "test bed" for any innovations. There is just one small point that I would make regarding ALL the fleet "upgrading" to the same sail plan etc, often it is better if there are at least two diametrically opposed lines of thought that are followed for advancements in this type of experiment/development as it then continually throws into the pot new ideas that can be tested against each other, and that way, the advancement can often be quite dramatic and far reaching in the shortest period of time, far better than everyone following the same single line of thought? Competition is healthy in all things. Just my thoughts on formula "development"

#53885 - 08/05/05 05:10 AM Re: SAils, Rigs: F-16...Asia [Re: SkunkWORX]  
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Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe

Quote

At the end of the day, we hope to have a fully developed platform that we can ship across to Europe next year so that sailors from our Fleet in Singapore can gain some valuable experience by racing in Europe.



If we are not careful, us Europeans need to go to Asia to gain valuable experience racing F16's.

We have an issue in the European F16 class that seems incredibally difficult to kill. The class is well received and by now many believe in it and even want to buy a F16 boat, however getting a dependable supply line going seems to be harder then changing lead into gold.

Also we truly need to supply FULLY-OPTIMIZED F16's, Europeans don't want anything else and I don't blame them with the competitive F18 market right on their doorstep. Ergo the time for the standard Taipan 4.9's with a spinnaker addition (Now called Taipan Hunter) are over. Over the last 5 years we have seen to much development in the F16 class. The really sad part is however that the Taipan basic design is not at all outdated, it just needs to be updated with a modern suit of sails (+selftacker) and some better beams. Then it is still remarkably competitive. Just as you have done with the Rhino Taipan F16. A score of us have been telling this to everybody over the last years. But for some reason, the One-design mentality is again allowed to do its destructive work. The standard 4.9 was competitive 5 years ago but by disallowing it to move with the times it is slowly falling more and more behind the rest of the catmaran fleets which are simply dominated by the formula based classes like the F18's, A-cats and also the Tornado's (more formula oriented than one-design).

In all honesty the standard OD Taipan 4.9 is a dead end in the international scheme of things. Not because of the performance potential it arguably still has but because somebody is tying one of its arm to its back for no good reason. (Taipan) F16 is about to explode into an truly big class if only we can hook up buyers with boats.

The Blade F16 and Rhino Taipan F16 are completely the way we should go. When do you think will the production line be up and running ?


Quote

We've also seen how much improved the self-tacker on the Taipan is compared to the one-design! The trampoline now has a useful area and tacks are so much faster - something we weren't really expecting, but a nice bonus all the same!



Ain't that the truth ! It almost feels like a completely new boat doesn't it. Can you believe that there are fans of the old jib system still around ?! There is not much I disliked about the original Taipan 4.9 but I serious had no appreciation for the standard 4.9 jib system. It just took away from the excellence of the overall design. One of those things that make you go "uhhh". It is also such a dissonant with the other fitting that are arguably developped with lots of attention to detail and intended use.

I personally think the basic Taipan design has another 10 years of live in it as long as it is allowed to go with the times. I'm very happy that I decided to homebuild my Taipan F16 At least then I could do all the stuff than the platform needs for coming decade.


Wouter




Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#53886 - 08/05/05 08:56 AM Re: F-16 sailing in the rice bowl...Southeast Asia [Re: Wouter]  
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SkunkWORX Offline
newbie
SkunkWORX  Offline
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Posts: 28
Peninsular Malaysia
It will be a long while before we attain the standard of European racing but, it is fun trying and we do have a year-long summer to boast of!

The T 4.9 is one incredible boat - it still has life but only as an F-16! The self tacker transforms the boat totally and is well worth the effort.

We're almost of the mind to start converting the standard T 4.9 platforms to full-spec' F-16's (2.5m beam etc...) We just want to make sure our carbon beams are the right match and then...away we go!

Certainly our other carbon items are right on not just lighter but impervious to our environment where the alloy tends to corrode out rather quickly. And so, the boat looks very tidy with the 'black' boom spinn. pole etc...

We attempted some kevlar chain plates but these proved not as reliable (yet) as the good old stainless steel ones. By comparison, the Kevlar chain plates weighed only grams and so it might take a little more time to get the kevlar plates to settle properly.

I'd hazard a guess and say that within the next 6 months we will see an F-16 go into fibreglass production here in S.E Asia. In the meantime the wood-epoxies are getting good attention as they have helped us pull the price of Formula sailing down here in Asia and that alone is helping to build the Fleet again.

There are lots of things going on here the least of which we are trying to get a suitable location for a good F-16 regatta. Developments of last week, it looks like we may have found a very good venue. In the meantime, we will be having a F-16 Challenge in the peak of our Monsoon (Feb' 06). This will be a 60nmile race from a Club in Singapore around a lighthouse and back. It's a 30nm beat follwed by a 30nm run! The record time is so far, 5hrs 10mins - but I'm sure the times will tumble as we are onto a 3rd generation spinnakers!


#53887 - 08/05/05 09:30 AM Re: SAils, Rigs: F-16...Asia [Re: Darryl_Barrett]  
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SkunkWORX Offline
newbie
SkunkWORX  Offline
newbie

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Posts: 28
Peninsular Malaysia
Thanks Darryl for your ideas. Operating out of here often leaves us in the dark with sailing developments plus there aren't that many people with too much time on their hands here to put into their liesure pursuits. Any comments on how to improve things for us are graciously accepted.

I can see the benefit of having 2 lanes of development. Although we've had a cat fleet here for more than 20 years i.e. Hobie-Nacras-Taipan-F16's now we are still in our infancy. Currently it is good for us to get our platforms 'standardised' but we are openly encouraging any F-16 as it can only make things more interesting. From an organisational point of view, it's very simple. From the sailors point of view, it's a lot more fun. All we need is a LOT more sailors. Then we can delve into more development.

I think our impetus is really to get a few platforms up to 'speed' and then try our luck in Europe.

I guess having some with Goodall sails and some with Ashby's doesn't really constitute diametrically opposed lines but we are hoping that we'll be able to develop a competitive sail here...dreams maybe, but worth a try nonetheless.

#53888 - 08/05/05 01:32 PM Re: some sailmakers around? [Re: Wouter]  
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Posts: 186
rbj Offline
member
rbj  Offline
member

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Posts: 186
Wouter,

In an earlier post describing key improvements for a fully optimized F16 vs T4.9 you included:

-7- Sheeting the mast rotation of the trampoline instead of the boom is in my opinion another improvement that needs to be incorporated in all F16's. It allows full depowering when letting the main traveller out. Something that is less pronounced with the old system. It also cuts down on complexity.

On which fully optimized F16 boats is this standard (ie, Blade, Stealth, etc)? Is this implemented so one can control mast rotation from either trap (along with DH)?

I'd also be interested if there's any links you know of which describe the details of the rigging of these boats (ie, how the stock spi hoist/snuffer rigging is implemented, etc).

Thanks,

Jerry

#53889 - 08/05/05 02:42 PM Re: some sailmakers around? [Re: rbj]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

On which fully optimized F16 boats is this standard (ie, Blade, Stealth, etc)?



Vectorworks Blade F16. European Blade F16 is still deciding what to do.

Stealths and Taipans sheet the rotation of the boom. In case of the Stealth I don't think it matter much, this is because its mast behaves differently from the superwing sections as featured on the Taipans and Blades.

Also note that my comment refers ONLY to boats that are sailed WITH a spinnaker. On boats without the spinnaker an argument can be had how the system that sheets the rotation of the boom is more attractive. It all comes down to the way a spinnaker changes the boats behaviour. Flying the spi negates certain points and thus elevates other points.


Quote

Is this implemented so one can control mast rotation from either trap (along with DH)?



On the Vectorworks Blade F16 = Yes.

Quote

I'd also be interested if there's any links you know of which describe the details of the rigging of these boats (ie, how the stock spi hoist/snuffer rigging is implemented, etc).



There aren't such link really. Just look really carefully at the pictures made of these boats. Often you can puzzle back how things work. Also it is easily enough to modify a stock setup yourself. I'm sorry that I can't be of more help here.

The builders themselfs are this first point of contact for these questions. I'm still doing all this pro-bono.

Sorry,

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#53890 - 08/05/05 04:59 PM boat rigging [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 86
sjon Offline
journeyman
sjon  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 86
Netherlands
Robi has done a great job by publishing a lot of pictures which show how the Blade is set up. It would be very helpful and also will promote the class if there would be an even more extensive rigging or assembly guide. Of course the producers could do something about this. As an example Hobie has an assembly manual on the web:

http://www.hobiecat.com/support/pdfs/fxoneassy.pdf

Pictures tell often more than a lot of words

#53891 - 08/06/05 01:00 PM Re: some sailmakers around? [Re: Wouter]  
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Posts: 186
rbj Offline
member
rbj  Offline
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Posts: 186
Wouter and Sjon,

Thanks for the great input.

It's amazing how much better a well rigged boat feels and sails than one that's not set up as carefully. Although I like rigging and have completely re-rigged boats in the past, I'd rather spend my time sailing. There's a lot of value added to having a boat well rigged from day one by the manufacturer so things won't have to be substantially changed by every user. Although it's true that some things are a matter of personal taste, its also true that some things work reasonably well for most people and others work poorly for nearly everyone so I'd hope that these excellent boats are set up more in line with the former. Having well designed line handling systems that are accessible from the right part of the boat, that keep excess line out of the way (ie, via bungee return), that are fast to rig and takedown, and that don't get tangled and/or fall overboard let you enjoy the boat more and keep your head out of the boat. Especially when singlehanding I can imagine that the spi hoist/douse system is cruicial. Why make eveyone reinvent the wheel? I think what I'd really like to see is a few different rigging options for critical systems (based on the collective experience of what works well) at the time of a new boat purchase - although some implementations would be more expensive I'm sure that many people would opt for them if that's what they really wanted since it would still be less expensive in the long term compared to paying for things to be rigged one way and then paying again (in time and materials) to redo it. And that's not counting the time and money spent on experimentation...

Jerry

#53892 - 08/08/05 01:45 AM Re: self tacking jib [Re: rbj]  
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ironman Offline
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Interesting posts, I get the general consensus opinion that a self tacking jib frees up space on the tramp, lets the crew focus on the main and improves tacking. Sorry for my ignorance but how do I convert from the standard Taipan configuration to a self tacking system. Does any one have a picture that shows a self tacking system so that I can work it out?

#53893 - 08/08/05 05:07 AM self tacking jib pics [Re: ironman]  
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Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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North-West Europe
Quote

Interesting posts, I get the general consensus opinion that a self tacking jib frees up space on the tramp, lets the crew focus on the main and improves tacking. Sorry for my ignorance but how do I convert from the standard Taipan configuration to a self tacking system. Does any one have a picture that shows a self tacking system so that I can work it out?



Converting is actually relative easy. You'll need to a drill and a good rivet tang that can blind rivet 4.9 mm monel rivets. You can't use plain alu rivets as then you'll just pull the track of the beam. Apart from that you'll just have to invest some time to carefully position the track in the right place.

AHPC can supply the selftacking track and required fittings and I must say that this track (that I have on my own boat) work well. All the other stuff is just standard Ronstan gear.

1 new jib cut for the selftacking system (I don't know know if the old jib can be recut)
1 curved track (AHPC)
1 car + small block attached
8 monel rivets
4 small blocks or 2 cheek blocks + 2 small blocks (depending on how you inmplement the sheeting system)
piece small (about 3mm )diameter line (for final stage of cascading purchase in sheet line)
piece of larger diameter line (about 6 mm) (for first stage of cascading purchase in sheet line)
2 360 degrees swivelcleats (RF57)

possibly a piece of 5 mm bungee line and a plastic or alu ring. This is used to pull the sheet line tight to the tramp while leading it all the way back to close to the rearbeam. This is handy in high winds as then both crew and skipper are way back on the boat and you really can't get the jib sheet if it stays near the mainbeam.

Personally I advice that you'll use a 4:1 purchase in the sheet line. I sailed with 2:1 for a while but that is just too little. Also with 4:1 you can more accurately control the jib sheet. With 2:1 very small adjustments on the jib sheet create big movements of the jib leech. It is too sensitive then. I know old jibs do fine with 2:1 but the selftackers really like a 4:1 system. Additional costs are just 1 small block ; about 12 AUS$ so why not have a 4:1 system over a 2:1 ?



I think I build my selftacking system (excl cost of the jib sail itself) for 200 Euro's (=about 300 Aus$) and as such it is just as expensive or even slightly less expensive as making the old system.


[Linked Image]


Take a look at the drawing. This is the setup I have right now and I'm very happy with that. Blue is the larger diameter sheet line (first stage) and red is the thinner diameter line (second stage) Grey is the jib sail itself. Bladck is the track. The thin black line near the rearbeam is the bungee cord. You'll need to have a spi pole of a short replacement pole goign from the mainbeam to the bidles wires to sheet a selftacker on a Taipan 4.9. This will also allow you to bring the foot of the jib sail below the bridle strop and win back a sizeable amount of jib area that you will loose when removing the overlapping part of the jib. This pole is a 30 dollar item. If you sail with a spinnaker already then you have this pole already. But just short 1.5 mtr pole to the bridles will work too if you don't sail with a spi. Must not forget the bridle strut though.

Anyway, AHPC and some other first lead the jib sheet from the cleats to the base of the pole and then forward to the small blocks at the tack of the jib. I think this is without good reason. First you'll have to have more small blocks (= extra cost) and you have added work. But also the jib sheet load is highest in strong winds when both the crew is way back on the boat, especially in reaching or going downwind without a spinnaker. In my setup the jib sheet goes through the swivel cleat in a perfect straight line if the crew is way back on the luff hull and right on the mainbeam. Ergo there is no friction because the line doesn't angle inward through the guiding eye of the swivelcleat. THis makes careful sheeting just a bit easier. Also the jib sheet line is now away from other line running along the spi pole lihe the external spi halyards and the jib luff tensioning line. (no foil ups)

Also the way the jib sheet runs over the trampoline means that the skipper can bedn forward and grap the jib sheet and adjust it. Something that the skipper WILL do when the crew is playing the mainsheet. And this reversal of sheets is VERY FAST when done right.

The bungee is tied a little bit different then what you would expect but there are good reasons for it. The bungee is tied paraller to the rear beam and it runs through the ring (free) just like the jib sheet itself. Now the bungee will pull the jib sheet towards the rearbeam (=tight) but it will not pull it to the centre of the rearbeam when the skipper lets it fall on the trampoline after or when he is/has adjusted the jib. This make handling it more comfortable. You also need less sheet line as the ring itself will move about the trampoline in an elliptical arc. Always keeping it relatively tight while allowing sheeting from nearly anywhere on the trampoline.

My advice is to start with this setup and see if you like it as well. I have gone through several setups and this is the lastest version and I'm actually pretty satisfied with. I think that I'm keeping it.

In teh conditions I had over the last months it had to work very well or you were in alot of trouble. We consistantly has over 20 knots of wind during our races with a very confused and rought seastate.

In the follow up posts are some photographs.


Good luck

Wouter

Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 08/08/05 05:07 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#53894 - 08/08/05 05:09 AM Photograph 1 [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
..

[Linked Image]

Attached Files
55056-KODAK 214_30%.JPG (297 downloads)
Last edited by Wouter; 08/08/05 05:10 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#53895 - 08/08/05 05:11 AM Re: Photograph 2 [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
..

[Linked Image]

Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 08/08/05 05:12 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#53896 - 08/08/05 05:13 AM Re: Photograph 3 [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
..

[Linked Image]

Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 08/08/05 05:13 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#53897 - 08/08/05 04:09 PM Re: Photograph 3 [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Darryn Offline
addict
Darryn  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Your might want to take off that excess Duralac with some MEK, Acetone or White Spirit. Contains Barium Chromate,
MSDS link
http://www.llewellyn-ryland.co.uk/downloads/duralacm.pdf

Darryn

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