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#55620 - 08/22/05 07:36 PM Re: Nacra F-17 @ CatFight VI - Lake Michigan [Re: Ken_H]  
Joined: Feb 2005
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Ken_H Offline
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All over the SE
More Pics of Nacra F-17 @ CatFight VI - Lake Michigan

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-- Have You Seen This? --
#55621 - 08/23/05 05:47 AM Re: CRAM & CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: Ken_H]  
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tigerboy1 Offline
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tigerboy1  Offline
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Commerce, MI
Ken H.....

I know CRAM is an open club and the NOR invited everyone who sails beach cats. I'm not putting down the effort CRAM put into Cat Fight VI. CRAM did a GREAT job in hosting the event this year both on and off the water. It keeps getting better. Hats off to the RC for suffering through the rough conditions. All I can say is a big THANK YOU CRAM for some great racing. We just need to convince the high portsmouth (Hobies in particular) to support the event again after some past miscues. I was just commenting on an observation and past experiences as to why only one Hobie 16 showed up.

John Bauldry
Commodore, Hobie Fleet 276
Hobie Tiger #1317
Detroit, MI



#55622 - 08/23/05 06:23 AM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: Ken_H]  
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brobru Offline
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Ken H

Thanks for the posts.

In Pic #1, of the F 17 series,..what a great shot!

Of the 3 boats, 2 cannot be seen because they are in a trough,...what great sailing conditions!

The boat in the background and the 17's masthead birdie suggest this to be the downwing mark,...correct?

In these conditions, 20+ wind and 3+ waves, the non spin 17 really comes alive,..it hits max very fast,....I wonder if they tried to hoist the spin ( probaly not..)

Anyway, this is a case for a smaller mainsail. The 'R' with the taller mast and 170 sf main was probaly a handful upwind.

I went to a 150 sf main , and in these conditions ( which is normal down here),..the 17 rockets and one nevere touches the mainsheet upwind,...you just scream as the 17 slices thru the waves at full throttle.

I wonder if any 17 participants are out there to tell us thier stories?

..anyway, great posts and pics,....and great sailing!

Bruce
I-17
St. Croix
US Virgin Islands

#55623 - 08/23/05 06:40 AM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: brobru]  
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RCochran Offline
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RCochran  Offline
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Michigan, USA
Brobu,
The F17's were at the offset mark off of A (to separate the upwind and transitioning downwind boats). All the F17's were "R" configuration, and all ran chutes. The boat is actually much better behaved with it up. The upwind legs were just a way to go back downwind with the chute. What a ride!

Tigerboy1,
I think the new format of separate start and finish lines solves the high portsmouth dilemma (race management). The Hobie 16s could have raced long courses. They would have just run less races overall for the weekend.

Nacra F17
USA 320


Nacra F17 USA 320 We Don't Need No Stinking Jib!
#55624 - 08/23/05 07:16 AM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: RCochran]  
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Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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South Carolina
Is it just me or is attendance pretty low for catfight this year? What have the attendance figures been in the past? (I might be confusing this with something else).


Jake Kohl
#55625 - 08/23/05 08:01 AM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: Jake]  
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tigerboy1 Offline
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tigerboy1  Offline
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Commerce, MI
Jake...

If memory serves me...Cat fight II in 2001 had over 100 boats (110?). Cat Fight VI had approximately 40 (42?). The trend has been toward declining attendance.

JB


#55626 - 08/23/05 08:24 AM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: tigerboy1]  
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Formula18 Offline
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Michigan
Quote
Jake...

If memory serves me...Cat fight II in 2001 had over 100 boats (110?). Cat Fight VI had approximately 40 (42?). The trend has been toward declining attendance.

JB



All things considered, with Virginia Beach at the beginning of the month, and Performance Race Week in three weeks in Traverse City, I think several of the out of state visitors had to pick and choose this year. We did have a large showing of cram people and lots of wisconsin boats, but the Floridia boys didn't come up this year. Hopefully we'll see them at PRW.

Also, Hats off to the race committee. With the new setup, seperate starts for different classes and different start finish lines, 11 races were run over the 3 days. 5 on the friday in the worst conditions, and people saying enough after the first 4. Another 4 on Saturday in high winds, with 2 following up on Sunday. By the time the F18's finished and sailed back to the start boat the flag was up for their next start.

Great Job Cram

Leah

#55627 - 08/23/05 08:27 AM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: Formula18]  
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Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
That is a good point. There have been a ton of large scale events in the US this year.


Jake Kohl
#55628 - 08/23/05 09:42 AM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: Jake]  
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sparky Offline
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sparky  Offline
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Michigan, USA
Jake,

Attendance over the 6 Catfights have been declining, I think for good reasons. Here is my recollection and the numbers are estimates, except for this year:

2001 CF I 74 Boats
2002 CF II 93 Boats
2003 CF III 67 Boats (Performance Race Week followed CF by 2 weeks and was in Traverse City)
2004 CF IV 84 Boats
2005 CF V 64 Boats (not promoted as well as earlier CF)
2006 CF VI 46 Boats (lack of promotion, PRW in Traverse City in 3 weeks, F18 NA's a week earlier in Virginia, Dream Cruise in Detroit, gas prices...)

Unfortunately, CRAM budgeted for break even this year at 60 Boats. Our club has operated on a break even basis for most of the last 25 years since I joined. This years' losses will be difficult to swallow. The Race Committee boats that have volunteered to help with Catfight in the past have told us that this year was the last. Based on both of these, I think that Catfight will evolve back into a regular CRAM regatta, just Saturday and Sunday and will not budget for 3 nights of dinners with free beer, pop and water, and 2 nights of parties (including DJ and free Painkillers on Saturday) as we have seen this year. This is just my opinion, but I don't see how CRAM can continue to put on this kind of party and lose money. It is a shame because this event, with camping on the beach, continuous parties, and great sailing and racing, has been the best of the best in cat racing events I have been to over the past 25 years. I was at the big Division 10 Championships in the early 80's with 300 Hobies and had fun, but the parties were nothing in comparison to Catfight. This is true of the many PRW events down in Pensacola Beach I have attended. They were all fun, but the formula for Catfight was the best, IMHO. PRW 2003 in Traverse City was comparable, I understand, but I chose Catfight instead.

Those of you who chose PRW in Traverse City this year will be exposed to another Great Event with the Nacra F18 Worlds being held on its own race course, separate from the F17 North Americans, N20 Nationals and the Nacra Open Chamionships. 5 days of racing for the hard core Nacra racers and parties and events every night. Eric Kennedy, Mark Biggers and Jack Young (along with many others) are working hard to give the sailors what was provided in Traverse City 2 years ago, except with an additional day of racing and partying! Should be a terrific event!

BTW, here are the top finishers in each of the Catfight Fleets:

Low Portsmouth Spinnaker (27 Boats, 11 Races, 2 throw outs)
1st, Matt and Dominique Struble, Nacra F-18, 10 points
2nd, Martin and Benjamin Malcheski, Tornado, 39 points
3rd, Claus Schnabel and Rick Olt, Nacra 20, 39 points
4th, Chris Tuckfield and Nina Barlow, Tornado, 43 points
5th, John Bauldry and Giselle Vasuru, Hobie Tiger, 58 points
6th, Chris Blake and J.J., Nacra 20, 58 points

Low Portsmouth non-Spinnaker (5 Boats, 10 Races, 2 throw outs)
1st, Steve and Jake Parsons, Nacra 6.0, 9 points

Single-handed (13 Boats, 7 Races, 1 throw out)
1st, Bill Gillespie, Nacra F17, 7 points
2nd, Roger Cochran, Nacra F17, 10 points
3rd, Ron Miller, Nacra 5.5 Uni, 17 points

High Portsmouth (1 Boat)
Jack and Hunter Soullier, Nacra 5.2


Les Gallagher
#55629 - 08/23/05 10:49 AM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: sparky]  
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Posts: 552
brobru Offline
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Sparky,

How was the A2?

Tell us how it handled upwing in big air,....I bet it flew..

How was it downwind,....how did you do against the 17' w spin?

We want to hear your stories.

regards,

Bruce
I 17
St. Croix

( I left Lake Erie Aug 16)

#55630 - 08/23/05 11:59 AM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: brobru]  
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sparky Offline
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Michigan, USA
Bruce,

Alas, I was on Race committee for Catfight, therefore, I cannot say. The A2 that was there did not correct out or even beat the best of the F17s. Keith is new to the A Class, as am I, and though he was fast to weather, the F17s in those conditions were faster downwind and faster around the courses set (windward - leeward with start line below leeward mark and finish line half way between windward and leeward mark). Interestingly, at this year's CRAM Regattas, the 2005 F17s seem almost as fast as the F18, the top F17 finishing within the top 2 or 3 F18s when they start together. I can feel that the 2005 is lighter than my 2000 when I move boats around on the beach, and it seems to be faster than the earlier boats. The skippers are better than I was, so that may be a big part of the reason for the improvement.

As for the A2 that was at Catfight, he did not "wild thing" in those conditions, and only raced in 4 of the 11 races. It sure got alot of attention on the beach from the other sailors!

Conditions on the race course on Friday were quite lumpy. I was standing up in a 23 foot Four Winns and often I could not see over the tops of the waves when we were in a trough. I estimate 6 to 8 feet from bottom of trough to top of wave on Friday morning. The waves on Lake Michigan are very close together, so it is unlike the waves I experienced in the Carribean. I heard someone saying that you could really fly downwind on Port tack, but couldn't generate the same speed on Starboard Tack. The waves and wind direction were not coordinated. On Saturday, the waves and wind were down compared to Friday, with Sunday bringing more wind and waves back. The lowest wind reading I heard from Race Committee was between 9 and 10 knots late on Saturday. Our boat (setting marks and helping with overturned boats) had radio problems so I didn't hear all the wind readings. The highest I heard was 18 knots on Friday. There were lots of boats over this weekend, and in one race on Saturday, the 3rd place F18 and 5th place F18 flipped just as they rounded or approached the leeward mark for the last time! At the same time we were at the leeward mark to offer assistance, the other chase boat was helping a turtled Tornado. After that we offered assistance to a Hobie Tiger, all in one race on the last downwind leg of that race. A couple of times, both chase/mark boats were helping or standing by flipped boats in different parts of the race course. I saw five boats turtle in these condidtions (the most I have ever seen in one regatta). We helped one Tiger get upright (water filled the mast) and watched a Tornado self right from being turtled. While we stood by, a Nacra F18 got the mast back to the surface from being turtled, and eventually got it back upright.

Less than 1/3 of the boats registered were on the water for the first 2 races Friday and the last 2 races on Sunday!

Bruce, I was hoping that you might find your way to one of our regattas while in the Midwest and we could meet. I hope you had a good time! Hurricane season approaches in your neck of the woods! Take care!


Les Gallagher
#55631 - 08/23/05 12:03 PM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: brobru]  
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pbisesi Offline
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Syracuse,N.Y
John: You will have a very difficult time getting any of the H16's there while there is a HCA points event going on in Barnaget. With the national points still counting towards qualifying for the nationals, as far as we know, we have to pick our spots. The best 5 regattas count, so it is nice to get in 6 or 7 events that qualify for points.
Speaking of great parties: Madcatter XXX is only 269 days away. Mark your calenders for May 19-21 for what will be a truly epic event.The forecast calls for a 10 case Don Q rum squall. John will dance

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Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
#55632 - 08/23/05 12:36 PM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: sparky]  
Joined: May 2003
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MarkMT Offline
old hand
MarkMT  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
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Lake Zurich, IL
Quote
Interestingly, at this year's CRAM Regattas, the 2005 F17s seem almost as fast as the F18, the top F17 finishing within the top 2 or 3 F18s when they start together. I can feel that the 2005 is lighter than my 2000 when I move boats around on the beach, and it seems to be faster than the earlier boats. The skippers are better than I was, so that may be a big part of the reason for the improvement.


Les, leaving aside the last sentence above, how do you understand your observation in relation to the F17 rules, e.g.

Quote
1. OBJECT OF CLASS RULES
1. 1 The NACRA F17 Class Catamarans are a one-design
manufacturers class. The rules, official plans and specifications are
intended to ensure that the catamarans of this class is, as nearly as
possible, the same in regards to shape, weight of hulls, daggerboards,
rudders, spars, sails, and that the equipment is simple, functional and
dependable. The ultimate intent is to encourage the use of only racing
tactics and sailing skill to increase boat speed.


How is this satisfied if the weight has changed over several seasons? Assuming your observation is correct, are the new F17s racing with a PN that reflects their lower weight compared with earlier I17Rs?

Mark.


#55633 - 08/23/05 01:35 PM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: MarkMT]  
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sparky Offline
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Michigan, USA
Mark,

I know that the results from all of CRAM races go to or will go to Darlene Hobock to adjust PN. The F17 from this year feels lighter, but some of that is the alterations to the boom, carbo blocks, mid-pole snuffer system, different tramp attachment system, etc., etc. This has happened in all the Nacra classes over the years, e.g., eliminating the mid-tramp pole from the N5.2, switching from polyester resin to vinylester resin in the Nacras beginning in 1999, etc. This has been the case in the Hobie classes, with changes in hull construction in the Hobie 16 and Hobie 18, now changing downhaul systems on the Hobie 16. It just goes on and on. Within the Nacra classes, you can purchase and upgrade your older boat to have the same equipment that comes on the new boats, like the new boom, new rudder blades, new daggerboards, mid-pole snuffer, new carbo blocks, etc. These continual upgrades, though not usually major changes, are one of the reasons sailors sell their current boat to buy a new boat (it always seemed to be a "must" in the old Division 10 days). It always seemed that the new boats were faster. In the old days when boats were weighed at major regattas (still doing this in F18), there was significant weight differences in boats. When I weighed the N5.8s at North Americans in Traverse City in the early 90's, we saw some really light boats (had to add weight) and some really heavy boats. When I bought my 1999 N5.5 Uni, it felt lighter than my 1988 N5.5 Uni. Having visited the Performance factory, it would not be unreasonable to expect variation in boat weights with changes in weather. There is production variation in all processes. I also hope that Performance continues to improve their boats without degrading their durability. As a customer, I would like to think that buying a new boat would be better than buying an old boat. If improving the F17 is the reason so many more of them sold this year, then I applaud Performance for making the right move. Are the new F17s at the front of the fleet? Yes. Are the sailors the same ones that were at the front on the previous boats? Yes. Is it a faster boat or are the skippers getting better? After single handing a spinnker boat for several years, I think skipper skill has more to do with time around the course. Also, on the F17, the learning curve takes longer to climb than on many other boats.

Do I think the F17 for 2005 violates the rules? Well, the rules were written for 2005. There are still rules for the N-17 that don't have the adjustments in spinnaker size based on skipper weight and the adjustment of skipper weight to equalize all skippers. The F17 cannot violate rules in 2005 when that is the first year for it. In CRAM, we have a F17 fleet and the older 17s all race those rules.


Les Gallagher
#55634 - 08/23/05 02:38 PM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan - F17 [Re: sparky]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 14
inter286 Offline
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Michigan
Considering we have the perfect opportunity here shortly, I would like to put a "friendly" chalenge on the table for the F17's comming to Traverse City, to put our boats on the scales. I, as an owner of a 17 would be interested in seeing if there is actually a difference. Either way, it would settle the discussion once and for all.

I will step up and be the first to find out.

Any takers????

Of course, this assumes that we can talk our comittee into letting us get in line at the scales with the F18's....

Bill Westrick
CRAM F17 #136


#55635 - 08/23/05 05:47 PM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan [Re: sparky]  
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Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Drifting further off topic...the Nacra F18 and Hobie Tigers seem to be able to hold their weight to an amazing degree of accuracy. The Nacra F18's here (6 of them) all weigh within 3 lbs of each other (that's fully rigged). The Tigers are pretty much the same.


Jake Kohl
#55636 - 08/25/05 08:33 AM Re: CatFight - Lake Michigan - Results posted [Re: sparky]  
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sparky Offline
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sparky  Offline
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Michigan, USA
The results from last weekend's Catfight are posted on www.catfightrace.com. Pictures from the beach from Thursday and Friday can be found there also. More pictures from the water on Saturday are coming soon.


Les Gallagher
#55637 - 08/25/05 10:46 AM Nice Job Bill G. [Re: sparky]  
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Posts: 3,904
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Nice tune up for Race Week aye.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#55638 - 08/25/05 01:43 PM Tiger's in the results, but no pictures?? [Re: David Ingram]  
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michsailor Offline
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In the results of the catfight, I see there were quite a few hobie tigers there. After reading about the Tigers success at the National and World level, I was looking forward to seeing some photos of some of the local sailors on the Tigers...but I don't see them in the photo gallery on this events website.

Lots of Inters, Nacras, and Tornado photos on the beach, but not a single Tiger. Last year, I even remember seeing a picture of a beautiful motor home with a white Tiger mural painted on the back of it...surely that guy has a Tiger...but no pictures of his boat either.??

What's up with that?

#55639 - 08/25/05 02:35 PM Re: Tiger's in the results, but no pictures?? [Re: michsailor]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,904
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,904
Clermont, FL, USA
Quote
In the results of the catfight, I see there were quite a few hobie tigers there. After reading about the Tigers success at the National and World level, I was looking forward to seeing some photos of some of the local sailors on the Tigers...but I don't see them in the photo gallery on this events website.

Lots of Inters, Nacras, and Tornado photos on the beach, but not a single Tiger. Last year, I even remember seeing a picture of a beautiful motor home with a white Tiger mural painted on the back of it...surely that guy has a Tiger...but no pictures of his boat either.??

What's up with that?


Did you know cathouse1.com is a Nacra dealer?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
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