I think I may have asked this before but I can't find it; apologies if so.

The ISAF SCHRS ratings for F16 and F16 cat rigged are 1.02 and 0.98; I thought the idea was that they were the same(*) and presumably this is what you find in 'real life' (same-ish)...? If so, which is the more realistic when racing single-handed against other boats; 1.02 or 0.98... The reason I ask is we're updating our ratings file and have a single handed F16. He will be racing against F18, Tornado and A and we are all of similar ability. I have a feeling that 0.98 (in fact 0.99 - it's an R with a F16 main) is not going to go down too well :-) anybody got any feelings about it...?

www.schrs.com


(*) I realise they can't be the same under all rating systems - but this seems a big difference...

I get the impression that single handers in general get hit pretty hard by the SCHRS. That's probably particularly true of boats with spinnakers where any boatspeed advantage over a an equivalent double hander will offset by hoists/drops being slower.

The Stealth R was easy - at least from a handicap point of view. The rating was 1.03 either way. That obviously isn't the case now that the main is bigger and the jib smaller in the F16 evolution. If you're adjusting the handicap to give this guy a "fair" handicap (which is what it's all about after all) then I'd go for 1.01 and see how he does, adjusting it if it looks wrong once you see some results.

Having now sailed a direct comparison on a single handed to twin handed, they are identical in performance over quite a wide range of winds, to throw a little confusion in, the Hobie FX1 also is identical as was proved at the Datchet meet where the FX1's were just part of the fleet winning and losing like everyone else.

The idea is indeed to have both modes having very comparable performance, however not all rating system are very accurate in rating this. SCHRS is one of the bigger examples in this.

It is my personal experience that both the 1-up and 2-up versions are very equal in perfromance and also very comparable to the doublehanded F18's. I've raced both setups keep often against F18's. I think ISAF/schrs is just off the scale. Of course when we had to choose between equality under some rating system or equality in real life then we decided that real life equality was the more important one. And so we went with that.






Actually, we have also slightly increased our sailarea this spring time and that has put of just over the threshold of rounding off to 1.01. I've tried to contact the SCHRS officials but none of the e-mails are working and it is impossible to contact them. So to be really fair, the correct rating for both F16's based on real life experience and more accurate physical models is equal to F18. Often the rating between F18 and Tornado's is pretty fair as well so....

So to answer your question, 1.02 will be fine.

I also believe that SCHRS rates the A-cat unfairly. Pretty much that boat should race of a handicap very close to F18 as well.


wouter

SCHRS uses a measurement rule to provide a handicap.

All boats that are not one design in terms of hull shape and sail area/shape should all carry their SCHRS on their rating / class measurement cert.

Some examples where this is particularly important are development/box rule classes like the A class, F18 and F16 where the old boats that were measured ages ago (old A classes, maybe the Dart Hawk for the F18 and I've no idea what was measured for the F16).

The main problem with all measurement rules when trying to handicap "Box rule" boats is when the Box rule does not control (and measure) all the things that the handicap rule measures and uses to calculate the handicap. As this happens the F18 (for example) these boats have got faster and there are some in the UK that think that if (say) a Capricorn was measured under SCHRS the handicap it would produce would be lower than the current 101. Some think as low as 98 !

The A class has developed in a similar way.


Now to answer sailwave. SCHRS currently rates the F18 at 1.01, the F16 at 0.98 single handed and 1.02 2 up - as wouter says, this might (should / will?) change with the sail area change.

I also agree with wouter that SCHRS does hit single handed cats with kites a little hard. As for contacts, you could try getting hold of Richard Allen via the Tornado UK site http://www.tornadouk.com/

F16 was never measured. We were given our handicap rating based on the maximum dimensions as given in the class rules.


Wouter

So the F16 does not actually have a Pukka SCHRS then.

Best get a Blade measured pronto then.....

No, it is all official. SCHRS committee agreed to it just as they did with regard to the F18 handicap and others.

Nothing hanky-panky about it

Wouter

Thanks everybody for the the replies.

When you say 1-up and 2-up what do you mean?

2up = main, jib, spin
1up = main

or

2up = main, jib, spin
1up = main, spin
?

Matt

Definiton of 1-up is main and spin. The ability to switch bewtten 1-up and 2-up by simply removing the jib was my biggest draw to the class. It'll be nice to still be F16 legal with either sail plan. This flexibility will allow me to include my children, when covenient/practical/safe.

Notice all "future tense", so I have no real-world experience as to whether 1-up is competetive with 2-up - but I hope it is. Both platforms/rigs have their pro's and con's.

I did see in one of Wouter's past posts on F16 crew weights where a 1-up T4.9 F16 won the Austrailian F16 Champs a year or so ago(not sure how many years ago, but it cannot be many as there has not been that many championships).

Actually ; 1-up means sailing solo as in only 1 person on board. 2-up means sailing doublehanded (2 persons on boards or even more)

Pretty much this means, when looking at the F16 class rules that 1-up = main + spi and 2-up = main, jib, spi.

However ! I must be said that the F16 rules allow any crew to sail "with less" then allowed under the rules. So if you want then you can sail F16 1-up with only a mainsail. You won't be very competitive in most conditions, but that is only your disadvantage, not one of the other crews who are using all that is allowed.

But when I talk about 1-up or 2-up in these F16 forum post I'm actually refering to the setups that are fully maxed out under the F16 rules and that means

1-up = solo with main and spi.
2-up = doublehanded with main, jib and spi.

Wouter

I figured 1-up had to be with a spin to be anywhere close to as fast as 2-up in most conditions.



Are you saying in 1up could you use a jib?

Thank you for the replies,

Matt

Not when you are sailing according to F16 rules, these forbid the use of a jib when sailing 1-up.

In general however (other classes etc) 1-up only refers to singlehanding a boat; it doesn't say anything about the rig used. But the F16 rules do something about the rig that can be used.

When I'm using the identifier 1-up on the F16 forums then I'm actually refering to the F16 definition of 1-up and that is without a jib

Hope this clarifies things

Matt,
one up = Solo = main(optional) + kite (optional) However no jib allowed.
two up = skipper + crew = main (optional) + jib (optional) + Kite (optional)

Yep.



No - 1up = main + spi only

That said, having the option of putting the jib on when singlehandling can help liven up otherwise dull conditions. Of course, you can't race as F16 like that.

Paul

As you can see, every class chooses a set of definitions.
This makes life hell for the scorekeeper because he usually won't know what the difference is between 1 up on a Dart 18 (Main only) and one up on a F16 (Main and Spin) using the language "1 up"

So, please spell it out for the handicapper and point out when your configuration differs from the published configuration.

US Sailing trys to help out by listing seperately the popular configurations of a boat and that has it's plusses and minuses but that's another argument.

Mark

At my sailing club, we have a unique ID for each boat that sails (in mutiple config).

So Inter 17 without a kite is "I17"
Inter 17 with the kite is "I17SPI"
Spitfire is spitfire
Someone sometimes sails the Spitfire single handed (with and without kite) and I think he is id's as SpitfireS and SptifireSSpi

We have one F16 that so far is only sailing 2 up (with all 3 sails) so that is as a F16; I assume he will sometimes sail single handed with the Spi and so it will be F16SSpi !

You then have a one-to-one relationship between boat identifier and rating.

Hi Scooby

Yes, I set up the Sailwave ratings databse the exact same way. Each configuration gets a database entry. The trick is ... How do you get all scorekeepers on the same page?

In CRAC and at Sandy Hook, we use the USPN weight adjustments for teams sailing more then 10% under or over a predetermined weight. I have a seperate rating for those as well. EG Hobie16H1 (See Phillip Khan's op ed on Olympic boats which span the weight range)

Mark

The Dart 18 is a good example of class rule abuse in Portsmouth. If you sail solo sloop-rigged on a Dart 18 you can claim uni-rig and then add the jib modifier. This gives you a DPN exactly the same as the sloop 2-up! Everyone else must take a basic sloop 2-up and takes the light weight hit for solo (L4 = 0.97). The difference? The sloop Dart loses nothing when sailed solo when all other solo sloops give up 2.5 min/hr. And the Dart guys say it's fair because that's the Dart rules.

Sucks... I can hear the OD guys laughing right now.