I like this thread. It's so long now it's hard to remember where it all started. It was Gordon asking 8 months ago if anyone thought we should bring out the big head mainsail change proposal again. The responses seemed to indicate no.

We have nine rule change proposals up for the next AGM in January 2007. Eight of those are to fix up mistakes, inconsistencies, obsolescences, and contradictions in the wording of the rules - no actual changes to the boat. The other proposal is to add an appendix which sets out measurement rules for the spinnaker, if one is used.

You can't stop people putting a spinnaker on their Mosquito, so it is probably best to have some guidelines so at least they are all a similar setup. The Taipans tried to stop their members using spinnakers and look what happened to them.

Just because Mozzie sailors like to talk "what if...", doesn't mean the boat is going to change. I don't understand why people feel the class is so threatened by just talk. Do we have to employ a class censor to stand around the camp fire at regattas and stop any conversations straying dangerously toward "changes"? Do we need a moderator to delete all posts on this forum that suggest changes? Of course not, it's just talk, and talk is healthy. If someone suggests something that others disagree with then they can get on here and disagree. Until a few months ago these kind of discussions were held in private. Now the whole class can get involved. This is great!

The "red rag to a bull" reference is just regarding that comment - "15 years ago ...". The rules didn't change, the class almost died for other reasons, and many of those who fought hard to stop the class changing left anyway (so what did they achieve?). Most often I've heard the "15 years ago ..." line used by people from other classes who want to put down the Mosquito. That's why it bothers me so much.

Now we have people from other classes who feel threatened by the Mosquito because they have seen how it performs with the spinnaker, and obviously they will argue that the Mosquito shouldn't allow spinnakers, for their own reasons.

The people who really believed in the Mosquito continued to sail them through the 90s and kept the class alive, so we can enjoy it now. Thanks to them.

I have seen an awful lot of Mossies here in SA over the last 35 plus years (even owned a couple), and I have seen a small number of "fractured" beams BUT, without exception the failure has always been the result of either poor engineered mounting of the beam to the hull (a lot of this arose from "home build" boats and/or bad advice), bad "electrolysis" corrosion (particularly around mounting fixtures), and the most common was from sailing with the dolphin striker too loose allowing excessive, continuous flexing of the front beam. All of these “problems can, and in most cases are, simply addressed.
There used to be a problem very early with the hulls, particularly on sloop rigged cats, when the hulls could literally break off inwards at the front beam due to insufficient structure internally to counter the “inward” rig loads, and as the bow broke occasionally the resulting “rescue” could bend/break the front beam.
I have also seen boats that have been sailing continuously for over thirty years with their original beams and still with no hint of “failure”.
I also remember extremely heated arguments in the seventies about whether the class should “allow” hulls to be made out of PLASTIC (fibreglass). The anti argument being that it would totally DECIMATE THE CLASS, and what self respecting cat sailor would want to sail a “Tupperware” boat when he could enjoy a beautiful crafted timber traditionally built craft? The same argument arose as to whether to allow fibreglass rudders instead of timber, for all the same reasons, none of these changes (and a few others) have ever “hurt” the class, some would say that the opposite is the case, but it always seems to be the case in any “association” that as soon as ANY change/improvement is even voiced, there will very vocal detractors who resist any change at any cost. They used to hide behind such adages as “Tradition”, “destruction of the class”, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, etc, and would never be prepared to look at any change, even if it was “good for the class” and/or it was necessary to ensure the actual “suvival” of the class, If the “no change” advocates had always won their case we would all still be sailing on “square riggers” or to take it back to the earliest analogy, we would be racing astride a solid log of timber holding up animal skins or palm leaves to catch the wind. “Tradition” is fine in its place, but a certain amount of pragmatism is needed to “stay the same” yet still keep up with the changing world around those “Traditions”.

The red rag to the bull. The main problem with this 'healthy' debating is, whenever someone posts to the 'cons' of a subject, in this case the Fat Head Main, we are quickly discouraged from contributing further, by being asked to not bring up certain aspects of the debate, i.e the 15 years ago the proposed changes nearly killed of the class. This is our opinion, whether it be supported by others or not, so if people want others to take part in these debates (because at the end of the day, it is what they are) our view should be accepted, not told that we are uninformed, or must be generally people from outside the class, and I can assure you that is not always the case. I'm not trying ruffle feathers here, I still follow the class with a lot of interest, whether I actively sail my mosquito or not.

Thank You

Matt Harper
Mosquito 741
Taipan AUS 329

The first beam went from corrosion also, the second lasted 7 months and went when I fell off a wave. The cause is an unbraced area of beam between the bolt securing the stainless strap to the beam and the inboard bolt securing the hull to the beam working. The solution is to transfer the stress to the inboard bolt which I have done recently and so far seems to do the job however I'm going to build a new beam incorperating the changes during the build for a even better fix. Until I've proven my fix I wont fit a spinnaker for obvious reasons.
Round corners are good to help prevent cracks. Most sailors are surprised when I point out that their beams are cracked, its particulary prevalent in Boyer boats as they must have built their beams off a jig.
I've noted two different size beams fitted to Mosquitos both of which fit in the tolerance in the building instructions, the smaller size beams which are fitted to the new Cobden built boats are tougher then the larger beams contrary to common sense. The Temper and corner thickness is the issue and the smaller beam is superior on both counts.
I find cracks in Aluminium for a living so maybe I look a bit harder then most.
Only three or four forum users can be accused of badgering, (certainly no Aussie Mosquito sailors who I find to be open and honest about their boats) their endless squaretop main/fit a spinnaker chant along with some of the falsehoods they perpetually bring up such as "its easier to gybe downwind in 25knots with a spinnaker then without" and other classics are amusing to me but newbies to the class (F16 also) actually believe some of that rubbish and get disenchanted pretty fast when it doesn't work for them.
My 2 cents,
Darryn
1704

I've read the comments with interest and have really held back the need to reply. Yes, I think more often then not accused of being a class badgerers as mentioned by Darryn and Switch. I'm also a mechanical engineer and oen of the few people who actually ran alot of math on these boats.

I feel very compelled to inform the "tradionalists" that they are verifiably wrong on many points.

The first is simple. The spinnaker doesn't put nearly enough stress and on the platform to break it. At this time the upwind loads are still the highest by far. So adding a spi will NOT make the craft more sensitive to breakage then it already was. Additionally the cracks on the mossie beams sound like either fatigue cracks or low tension ruptures, neither of which much influenced by changes in stresses. The causes for these are to be found in inadiquate design or fitting of the beams. The most simple solution to badly build boats is to glue a strip of aluminium on the concerned area;s (on the inside) to locally beaf it up. Sorry mates, THAT is just the truth and I'm not going to sugarcoat it because your GUTT feels otherwise.

Then we got another beauty.



Obviously YOU never sailed with a spinnaker in those conditions. Yes it does take some additional skills at first but afterward you'll never go down WITHOUT a spinnaker ever again in these conditions. Only the bulk of F18 sailors and other spi classes support the claim that it is really easier to go downwind and gybe with a spi in these conditions then without. Reason, the boat is ALOT less dive happy. Hell, a score of us are doing this SINGLEHANDEDLY. When you fit a large squaretop head on your mainsail the spinnaker becomes even mandatory as the large head does push the bows in more when broad reaching without a spi.

I appears more like it is YOU who is perpetuating the falsehoods. "15 years ago rule changes", "spinnaker breaks boats", "better downwind handling is boogus"


Then we get a switch argument from the Traditionalists :




May be it is just me but I've heard alot more "shut-up" and "don't change anything" comments from the traditionalists then the from the guys considering changes. It is they THEY who are quickly discouraging others not the modifier. And it is you who are clearly so threatened by even the discussion of possible changes without them ever reaching proposal status. You are accussing the other side of what you yourself are doing all the time. And I know because I received my fair share of those comments, a good portion even rather aggressively.


But I safe the best for last. The "(any) change is destroying the class" argument

My appologies for Gary, Tim and the other healthy debaters here but I'm afraid I need to spell something out to these traditionalists. The mosquito class WAS alot more dead before the all the talk of changes and spinnakers then it was after. This dispite the fact that it DID NOT change anything in, oohh, the last 15 to 25 years ? Secondly the class is not a succes by any standard today. The South African sailors have switched to class spinnakers and so you will not count them as Mossie sailors anymore. That leaves a handful of old school mossie sailors in Victoria and South Australian. Absolutely no mossie made it to other parts of the world. If this is what traditionalists call succes then what do you guys call the development classes like the A's, F18's. F16's and even modified mossie designs like the Taipans ?

It seem pretty obvious that "not changing anything" could not prevent decimating the fleet numbers the way it is claimed. Hell, it appears even that the modifications was actually the one thing that turned this bad streak around.


But the best example I ever encountere was this. The tornado class voted down, with a large manjority, all the changes proposed back in 2000. Booth and Bundock when ahead as planned anyway and 18 months later 90 % of the class had upgraded and the tornado fleets started attracting more and more boats on the line. Somewhere in those 18 months the large majority of "no-voters" changed their minds and went back on their most fundamental believes and upgraded anyway. Most remarkably was that never again a complaint was heard from any significant group of Tornado sailors.

I think this shows clearly how dependable traditionalists are. They sure as hell won't float a class, no matter how passionate their arguments. And maybe my next comment is a bit harsh but it is sadly the truth. I say forget about these sailors, for their value in floating a class is indeed very little and in the end THEY will follow the lead in the class anyway no matter how much against it they are.

Base your decisions on what furthers the class among the other classes and right now that means changes. Moderning the boat without getting overboard. Make sure you keep the class leaders and really active sailors on board (by keeping the class interesting) and make the mods slow enough so the rest can follow.

I'm sure this post will cope its fair share of "You European lake sailors now nothing of Australian scene" and "you're not even a Mossie sailor", not to forget "Keep your dirty paws of our succesful one-design class". Of course I've never been a lake sailor and I've been right where locals were wrong. I predicted the demise of the Taipan 5.7 and now I predict the demise of the Taipan 4.9 design. It takes no genius to predict the demise of the Mossie if it doesn't "go with the times" a bit. Hell 80 % of the demise has already been completed in the last 15 years.

Now the mossie design deserves alot better as evidenced by the recent results of the spinnaker equipped mossies. For the first time in its 30 years history the Mosquito catamaran is actually a known name OUTSIDE of Australia and South Africa. THAT is growth. Maybe if you guys play your card right you may even start new fleets in Europe, USA and other parts of the world, something the old classic setup never was able to do.

Take another look at the Taipans vs F16 conflict. Is there any doubt which will survive and outlast the other ? Right now there are NO Taipan 4.9 OD's sailing outside of Australia. And right now there are about 100-150 Taipan alike boats more in the world then 5 years ago. THAT is class growth, the F16 concept pretty much floated the Taipan sales for the last years.

Yes we did loose some really hard core traditionalist but we won back over 100 new sailors to the class. I say that that is a trade-off I don't need to think about hard and long and neither should the mossie sailors.

Wouter

Just to get the Tornado part of this clear. The Tornado class had been looking at spis and double trapezes a long time before the changes in 2000. Booth, Derecksen and others promoted the Tornado Sport (Digression: look who is running the Volvo Extreme 40 class, TS management = TornadoSport management, and check where the URL http://www.tornadosport.com takes you <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
However, it was not Booth and others who made the Tornado class go for the new setup. The ones responsible for that was ISAF who decided that for the 2004 olympics the open multihull would be the Tornado with double trapezes and spi. After that, it made no sense for the class to keep on to the old setup. So the "no-voters" was more or less overruled by ISAF. I dont think the "lake sailors" changed their minds, and there are still many T's who sail with the classic rig becouse they dont want the spi and double trapeze (but these boats dont compete much in class events anymore).
The switch to the new sailplan did increase fleets in England and other places as far as I know. But the Tornado class lost some participants, which was OK if they sold their boats to sailors who wanted to upgrade the platform to the new sailplan. If they keept their boats and continued sailing with the old configuration, they was pretty much lost for the class/class racing. I guess this is the core of the issues with the Mozzies also, how many sailors will be lost from class racing and will new ones enter the class..



If we look away from the "significant group" part which is too open an statement, there has been lots of noise. But the carbon mast controversy overshadows that <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
In my opinion, putting the new sailplan on the Tornado was a good move. It made the boat more fun to sail, especially in low wind conditions, and the crew dont have to wear a diving mask with snorkel anymore when going downwind. Bad side is that all loads increased, some needed new aft beams, and some vintages of hulls showed their age..
I got to admit that I also prefer to go downwind with the spi up, but I have a crew to handle the spi..


Discussing advantages and drawbacks to changes in the open surely must be a good thing.
I dont know if it will be a smart move to change the Australian Mozzies, but times are changing and the South Africans seem pretty pleased with both their setups and racing.

The point is that a large majority voted down the changes and vowed their continued support for the classic setup only to prove that they were totally incapable of keeping the classic Tornado alive as a class, not even for 18 months.

Let me repeat this "a LARGE majority" ... "vowed continued support for classic design" ... "couldn't keep the classic design active as a class" ... "not even for 18 months"


I'm sorry to be so confrontational on this issue, BUT there is a very valuable point to be learned here.

Such majorities don't mean a thing, because when the point comes to show their strength and resolve by actually putting bodies on the water and running an organisation like a catamaran class; they are nowhere to be found. And I think we all agree that those two points are actually the only ones that matter. Ergo any threads "to leave the class" by such a majority are meaningless. They will leave the class anyway when the group of truly active members have moved on.

Hence my point, keep the active members on boards not matter what. Introduce changes if that is what keeps them on board and ignore the conservative "majority" if you have too. From my perspective it looks like the adding of the spi to the mossie is actually doing that. And therefor it is a wise path to persue. It certain did so in South Africa, if I'm not mistaken, and it is back on the growth path as a result.


No I don't sail a mossie and I have never even seen one in the flesh. I do sail a modified Taipan (to F16) so I don't really care what direction the Mossie class chooses. I'm just writing down my experience in building up and growing a catamaran class in todays market; especially in competitive markets like Europe. I say learn from it, but you should also feel totally free to ignore anything I wrote.

Ohh, before I forget. The Taipan 4.9 class decided to go conservative and hence the F16 class split off. (just like the Taipan class split of the mosquito class back then). Look at the (international)standing of the Taipans to seen what you can expect when choosing this route.

Wouter

No, a vote saying "no" to proposed changes is not the same as a vow of allegiance on your honor and the flag to keeping the current rules indefinately. It is simply a "no" to the proposal. Put the right spin on the matter and re-run the ballot next year, outcome might be different. The Tornado might have sailed with the classic rig today if not ISAF had defaulted the question.

Personally, I agree with the rest you wrote. Finding the right persons, and keeping them in the class, is the trick.

Hi there has been 2 mozzies that have tried this one in VIC a mk1 mozzie that they added 1 metre to the existing mast section put square top mainsail and off they went with no breakages to my knowledge. Then they tried a mk2 in SA same mast changes first mast snapped in half second mast bent spredder snapped mast third mast after lots of talk and professinal built mast bent spedder and broke mast. I think just adding new sail mite look good but is the rest of the boat really up to it I think some has to try and see what happens if proven results show it's better the maybe it should be put to a vote but from what i have seen leaving it alone at the momement would be a good idea. PS we have 10+ regestered mozzies at our club and they are getting bigger so that says a lot for the class also greg goodall made sails for above mk1 and mk2 thanks

Like a gentleman, by the name of David, stated at the national titles. "In Australia we should be looking at developing the Mosquito into a youth training boat for the Tornado Class." I liked this idea. How great would it be to have future olympic champions coming through the Mosquito Class, imagine the competition. Maybe we should scedule to attend some regattas with the Tornados. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thus, the spinnaker idea is great, we sail with two trapeze anyway, the hull shape is similar. Maybe there is merit in looking to modify the rig in future to a smaller version of the Tornado's thereby making it a similar handling boat.

Just before the trigger is squeezed. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I would like to point out, I would like a spinnaker, new main and new jib but cannot afford them at the moment either. From my experiences all boats are a work in progress and there is always something to maintain, alter, try or buy. Most equipment based sports have the problems of upgrading and new technology requiring the spending of more $. The best thing that can be done is to ensure that any upgrades made are of benifit to the class and not just change for change sake. This is where the try (and talk) before everyone buys comes in.

Ok, Fire at will.

Consider yourself ignored,

Darryn
Mosquito
1704

Hi Darryn

I am laughing my head off, I've been telling myself all day not to write those exact words.
I second Darryns comment <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Most equipment based sports have the problems of upgrading and new technology requiring the spending of more $. The best thing that can be done is to ensure that any upgrades made are of benifit to the class and not just change for change sake. This is where the try (and talk) before everyone buys comes in."

Ok, Ive read ALL the posts, just an idea here : Colmc raised a valid point : Upgrade costs vs normal wear and tear/usage costs. You will gladly order a new Mozzie mainsail (class legal) when your old one is clearly no longer capable of producing results. An often-sailed boat will have to change mainsails more often, so the top competitors (ie those who sail often, rule no. 1 of being close to the top) will buy new sails more often than those who sail less often.(ie back or middle of fleet).
Now, if a squaretop mainsail cost 10% more than a standard main, and is proven to produce more speed, power and control in a wide range of conditions, surely it would be a GOOD thing for the CLASS (not necessarily all the class MEMBERS). It could also(no promises here) promote the class more, attracting sailors who would otherwise go elsewhere for more performance.
And the beauty of it all, is that you`d buy one when your old dacron main is screwed anyway, at only 10% more (remember?) than your new one-design main. Then, when everyone has a squaretop main, it BECOMES the new one-design sail, at NO ADDITIONAL COST (ok sorry, 10% more...)
So IF the class changed to a squaretop main, a natural progression would take place. The SA (as in Africa) Mozzie class didn`t adopt the spinnaker immediately - we never even proposed it as a rule change - until 5 boats were sailing with spinnakers and making the rest of the class members green with envy, for at least a season.
We tested and tried it in all conditions, tried to break it, the boat and the crew, until it was a PROVEN idea. Then we put it to the vote and got 100% positive response, because everyone could SEE that it made the boat faster and more fun to sail, with NO ADDITIONAL BREAKAGES.
That`s what has to happen with squaretop ideas - someone has to try them out, and after a season or so once it has been PROVEN a success or a failure, can we sit back and make an objective decision as to whether it works or not. If it does, the adventurous sailors will go with it whether it`s class legal or not. If it doesn`t work, well then at least it was tried. If it works, the class can vote on it, and the outcome will be whatever it may be. Experiments are good for the class, brave folks are prepared to try new ideas at their own expense, and the best ideas that WORK can be adopted to keep the class at or at least close to the sharp edge of catamaran design.
I love the boat for what it is, and I`m not kidding myself that it can be a full F16. But there is NOTHING more satisfying than rounding the A-mark 50m ahead of a Hoboe Tiger (sp. mistake intended), and reaching the C-mark with the same margin advantage, and it happens. The only thing better is when the skipper of the Tiger (who in this case is my ex-skipper) approaches you after the race and says "man, I just couldn`t catch you downwind !"
Makes me want to own a Mozzie.
And that`s how to get other people to want to own a Mozzie.

Please accept my "badgering" for what it is - an unbounded enthusiasm for a beautiful "classic" design boat, that with subtle upgrades with moderate costs, can still be a great performer 40 years after it left the drawing board.

Ever since we put the first F14 in the water we have sailed against “standard” Mossies at regatta and club level, and they have never been at all competitive with us, then we recently travelled to Victoria to a “long weekend” regatta and sailed against three cat rigged Mossies WITH spinnakers. The performance of these spinnaker Mossie’s compared to the ones without a kite was completely “chalk and cheese”. The spinnaker improved the overall performance of the Mossies out of all recognition and for the very moderate cost of adding the kite and hardware for this conversion I find any arguments against “going that way” very petty.

I'm glad someone brought up the replacement of sails argument again. In 2-3 years of regular sailing, chances are that your mainsail will be shot and can be conveniently upgraded to whichever sail plan the class chooses. The "increased cost" argument against a mainsail upgrade is mute.

I think it's time to go sailing, I'm sure it'll be more fun than arguing here.

Those that don't get easily offended might like to google the old adage about "arguing on the internet".

(Edited to stick to one clear point in this post)