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#64682 - 01/15/06 09:08 PM Fat Head Sail  
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Tim_Mozzie Offline
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Rather than copy all the posts from the previous "Fat Head Sail" thread into this forum I'll just provide a link to them here. Then the discussion can continue from here.

Fat Head Sail - Page 1

Fat Head Sail - page 2


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
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-- Have You Seen This? --
#64683 - 01/25/06 06:18 PM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: Tim_Mozzie]  
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ncik Offline
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I have recently purchased a second hand mosquito in Queensland as a trainer for a few years before getting into an F16. Because there are no other mosquitos in Brisbane and the old sail was shot, I decided to purchase a new main with an oversize head.

The taipan sailors at the club have mentioned that it looks good but I suspect this is based on aesthetics rather than performance potential.

Unfortunately I have been rebuilding broken rudders since Christmas and have only been out a few times beforehand (only two races). Since this is my first time in cats, my crew and I are still learning the ropes and there are no other mozzies to sail against performance evaluation of the square top is a long way off. However, I will try to keep this message board updated on VYC handicap results against the taipans and such as this would be a reasonable indicator.

#64684 - 01/26/06 05:06 AM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: ncik]  
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Wouter Offline
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One quick advice regarding squaretops. Don't pull the head in to the centreline. Try to sail with a nice continious amount of twist. The top should nearly always be about 200 to 250 mm out from the centreline. You'll need this twist profile to reduce pressure on the top and to cut down on the tip vortex which can add alot of drag to the rig. Pulling in the sail to tight will feel like the boat is bound up. That it should go alot faster but won't. A squaretop that is too far open (twisted off) will feel underpowered, you'll be sitting in and going slow as well. Finding the right twsit profile can in some cases feel like you just dropped a large chunk of lead. The boat will feel free, agile and quick again. Remember induced drag on the rig accounts for about 30-35 % of the total boat drag and it is the single biggest drag component in relation to hulls drag, board drag. It can make or break your race quickly.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#64685 - 02/08/06 01:06 AM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: ncik]  
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#64686 - 02/08/06 01:15 AM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: ncik]  
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#64687 - 02/08/06 01:16 AM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: ncik]  
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#64688 - 02/08/06 01:20 AM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: ncik]  
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From my foot down measures as a mosquito main, from my foot up does not measure (approximately the top third is over size).

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#64689 - 02/08/06 03:46 AM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: ncik]  
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Hi Nickb,

I would be interested to know, what is the actual measurement from head eyelet to first batten position at leech? (Head width?)

It looks like it is bigger than old experimental Fathead main. Who made the main?

That rubber block at head shackle looks like what is used for push up luffs, it isn't push up is it?

Must say, it looks like the type of head I was interested in putting on a Mossie, until I did the "Altered" thing.

Regards Gary.


Regards Gary.
Mosquito 1830
All opions expressed in this post are mine and mine alone, no assumptions should be made regarding any Associations or Clubs I may be a member of.
#64690 - 02/08/06 04:16 PM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: ncik]  
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Hi Guys
I'm also very interested to find out how the mossie will perform with a fat head main. So far from what I have read you chaps in Oz have been against the idea since the initial experiment which was not to succesful as I understand it.

We in S Africa have spent many hours, days, weekends over many many beers talking on this subject. The one idea (I like) is to bring the mosquito into line as to what is happening currently with all the other cat classes on the market.

Introduce the fat head main, make the boom shorter so that sheeting of the main will be off the clew of the main. Boom can then be lighter. Still keep the same sail area. I'm sure that this type of sail shape will perform beter over a wider wind range (6 to 25 Knots) as opposed to the old pin head shape over the same wind range, which is the range of wind we normaly race in.



Mosquito Sailor
#64691 - 02/08/06 06:44 PM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: Sarel]  
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Hi Sarel

I wasn't in Mosquitoes at the time, but from what I heard the experiment with the square top sail was very successful. The people who tried it out liked it, some claimed it made the boat easier to handle in a strong breeze and it looked good. It wasn't shown to be any faster at that stage, which was another point in it's favour (it wouldn't make the old sails instantly obsolete).

Sadly it didn't become the sail we all use today, but it sounds like that was because in the end a majority were persuaded that it would be bad for the class overall. Many threatened to leave the class if it was adopted.

It's easy to see now (20/20 hindsight!) that those concerns were wrong, as the sail wasn't changed and the class virtually came to a standstill anyway while the Mozzie owners switched to Taipans and sailing became less popular in general. The square top would have served the Mosquito well over the last 12-14 years if we'd had it.

The situation now is a little different. The sail that was being considered then worked ok on the existing mast, but would now look just as out-of-date as the current sail. The square top sail that would be considered these days is more radical than 14 years ago and there's serious doubts that our very lightweight mast will do the job. It will be interesting to see the results of your experiments with the short boom.

The other important thing to remember is that rather than being in crisis control mode, the class is actually growing now. You have to think about what it is about Mosquitos that's attracting people to the class - and be very careful not to mess that up. Right now the Mosquito has some unique features among the catamaran classes (eg. performance for the cost, easiest cat to handle a spinnaker, easy to handle out of the water and fast in everything from a drifter to survival). There's no point blindly making the Mosquito like other catamaran classes if that just makes the Mosquito irrelevant.

I can understand why you guys in SA want to make your Mosquitoes faster, but there is a simpler way, with all the design, testing and research already done for you. It's only a small change, but the next Mosquito you build, use a set of Taipan plans instead. [Linked Image]


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
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#64692 - 02/09/06 05:49 AM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: Tim_Mozzie]  
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"I can understand why you guys in SA want to make your Mosquitoes faster, but there is a simpler way, with all the design, testing and research already done for you. It's only a small change, but the next Mosquito you build, use a set of Taipan plans instead. "

Hi Tim, your response made me laugh - true, but then I`d go with the Blade.
But on the other side of the argument, a squaretop main that DOES work with the existing mast-section and makes the boat easier to sail in stronger winds and more efficient in lighter winds would increase the appeal of the Mozzie, not decrease it. Perhaps a "phasing-in period" would help prevent the "it will kill the class" brigade from once again stopping all development. I like the look of Nick`s sail, I`m guessing the head is about 800mm which is quite extreme for the mast, it may twist off too much or too early, but we will only know that once he has a new mast !

Steve

#64693 - 02/09/06 06:00 AM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver]  
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Again, you can stiffen up to top by moving up the hound fitting and spreader assembly.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#64694 - 02/09/06 04:04 PM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: Wouter]  
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I'm considering doing that Wouter. I may raise the hounds about 300mm, raise the top of the diamonds to just below the hounds and add an extra set of spreaders to the diamonds. Should be good.

I don't understand the argument that changing a sail plan will cost too much and people will leave the class. In pretty much every class I've sailed in, jibs need to be replaced atleast yearly and the mains get replaced every two years. This leads to an unavoidable and automatic phase in period.

If people are keeping their sails for much longer than these periods, they are probably not concerned about their performance. The argument that the introduction of a new sail will obsolete old sails is flawed because old sails need to be replaced anyway. Sails should be considered a consumable item in sailing.

However, occasionally someone will stumble across an old sail that performs well and these people are lucky, and generally good sailors too. These people that are lucky and good sailors shouldn't care about the rest of the fleet catching up to them because I believe close competition will grow the class. Eventually these lucky and good sailors will also need to replace their sails, at which time they can get the new sail plan.

Disclaimer: It may look like I am trying to promote the sail plan I have but that's not entirely true. I have gone with this mainsail because there are no other mosquitos in Brisbane and I am trying to compete with taipans (once I stop breaking the boat!). The reason I bought a mosquito is because it was available at a reasonable price and I considered it a good training boat for an F16 and a potential platform to modify into an F16. However if the mosquito class were to adopt a spinnaker (maybe in the form of a mosquito mark III) and a new mainsail planform, then I may consider it a better option due to all the good points the class has.

Well, that's enough of a rant for today.

Nick.

#64695 - 02/13/06 04:40 PM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: ncik]  
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Hi Nick,
Your approach is interesting, one which I believe you`re not far wrong about (that sails ultimately need replacing more often than most of us do.) My sails are from 2000, but are in good condition because we had them made from the heaviest cloth we could get (not good for weight aloft but good for durability), and sadly because I sail my boat far too infrequently.
I would love to go the squaretop route, but not because my sails need replacing, rather that I believe it will provide a better handling boat with more speed in most conditions.
Your approach that you need compete against faster boats and are not concerned about staying within class rules is also interesting since it allows you to modify things without too much regard for the rules.
With respect to what Wouter suggested, we have considered splicing an additional 300mm of mast section to the bottom of the mast, in effect this lengthens the mast by 300mm, but also moves the hounds, spreaders and diamond wires up by 300mm, assuming you have the hounds and spreaders where they are supposed to be on the existing mozzie mast, I see no reason why the mast will not stand up to the loads, except that there will be 300mm of mast at the base that is not stiffened by diamond wires, perhaps we would need to move the lower diamond wire chainplates down and have longer diamond wires made up, relatively cheap operation (any comments Wouter ?) The reason for this is not to lengthen the mainsail luff, but so that our crew can get under the boom faster while tacking !! These are all just ideas in our heads right now, glad to see an Auzzie trying things out first

#64696 - 02/14/06 12:22 AM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: ncik]  
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If you sail a minimum weight, well set up boat, with a decent mainsail ( that measures under existing rules ) and get some coaching/advice from experienced Mosquito sailors, with practice, you will find you can sail with the Taipans.
Darryn


#64697 - 02/14/06 06:22 AM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: Darryn]  
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Darryl,

Are you sure that you didn't intend to write :

If you sail a minimum weight, well set up boat, with a decent mainsail ( that measures under existing rules ), get some coaching/advice from experienced Mosquito sailors, alot of practice [color:"red"]while the Taipan crews didn't do those thigns as well [/color] then you will find you can sail with the Taipans.


WOuter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#64698 - 02/14/06 05:03 PM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: Wouter]  
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No I didnt intend to write what you have added Wouter. Whats the closest you have been to a Mosquito catamaran Wouter, 2000km? You dont know enough to know what you dont know Wouter.

The intention of my post was to encourage Nick to develop his sailing skills and boat within the guidelines of the Mosquito class which will have a positive effect on his results against any class.
Darryn


#64699 - 02/14/06 05:30 PM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: Darryn]  
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Yeah, what do I know ehhh Darryl ?

Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#64700 - 02/14/06 08:16 PM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: Wouter]  
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ncik Offline
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Just to clarify something which appears I didn't make clear...

I am developing my F16 sailing skillz by purchasing a boat I can afford at this point in time that would measure as an F16 and would give me a platform to upgrade over time, that happened to be a mosquito.

Since my boat is a mosquito, apart from the main, I am gathering as much information about mosquitos as possible to learn how to sail and setup my boat better.

It was my impression that the mosquitos were considering an update of their allowed mainsails so I was merely adding my experiences to the classes knowledge already in this area.

I feel that my only response to Darryl's comment is to compare the current Yachting Victoria yardsticks for the two classes.

Mosquito (all) - 84
Mosquito (spinnaker) - 80
Taipan (cat) - 76.5
Taipan (sloop) - 73.5

The taipan sloop should beat a mosquito by over 10 minutes in ever 100 of race time (is that the correct interpretation of the handicap). To add to my woes, I believe the current taipan sloop national champion races from my club. Maybe in some conditions I may have a chance (do mosquitos do well in light air against their handicap?) but I think a taipan that is getting beaten by a mosquito is going pretty slow. It's my understanding that a taipan is a similar weight, length and beam to a mosquito, but with more sail area...if this is correct it's no wonder they are faster!

As I said before, I am merely sharing my experience of a different mainsail on a mosquito platform with the people of this forum. I put my two cents in about the idea that sails should be replaced regularly because that is my opinion and I think it is a damn good argument against people using the excuse of not wanting to update the classes mainsail planform because it will make their sails obsolete (still haven't heard a good argument to refute my opinion).

If people want to hear this information I am eager to share it. However if it is not wanted I will post it in the F16 forum.

Best regards,
Nick.
Here endeth the rant.

Last edited by nickb; 02/14/06 10:03 PM.
#64701 - 02/15/06 01:55 AM Re: Fat Head Sail [Re: ncik]  
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Nick,
The Mozzie is a great way to introduce yourself to F16 or spi. cat sailing in general, so stick with it for a while. There are a lot of sailors who desperately want the Mozzie to stay a 1966 design, can`t fault them since it worked well for Hobie. The Mozzie unfortunately lacks the big corporate marketing machine that is Hobie, and I believe that it will need to take the leap forward at some time, or be remembered as a nice little boat that you could sail if you couldn`t afford a Taipan. I don`t believe changing sailplans etc will make it as fast as a Taipan, but by narrowing the gap you will make it that much less attractive to sell the boat and get a Taipan, so I believe constant gradual development can only do the class good.
Darryn sails uni-rig from my understanding based on previous discussions with him, and from reports I`ve heard from him he tends to beat the sloop-rigged Taipans when the wind is over 20knots. Now call me confused, but in S. Africa the sloop Mozzies are faster than solo in over 14knots, in Aus it seems opposite. Too many variables, could be the solo sailors are the better of the bunch ? Another variable could be that the Taipan sailors Darryn races are not the top of the fleet, but only Darryn can answer that. Yes, I`ll agree with him that learning the boat and working at it will narrow the gap, but as Wouter says, problem is when the Taipan sailors do the same.
Remember, handicap ratings are imperfect, the Mozzie may be easier to sail than the Taipan in stronger winds, making it the "faster" boat in certain conditions. If you don`t already have the spinnaker, get one, it will make racing non-spi Taipans very interesting !
Oh yes, and send pics of your mainsail rigged on the boat when you get your mast sorted.

Steve

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