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Mozzie + Kite + SA #68914
03/10/06 09:50 PM
03/10/06 09:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 97
Adelaide, Australia
Tony_Snape Offline OP
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Tony_Snape  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 97
Adelaide, Australia
Hi guys... I am about to dive head first into my first Mozzie. I have been going through the various associations, SA & Vic etc. As you are probably aware the Victorians have been adding kites to their mozzies for what I can tell is a few years but what I don't see is any SA guys following.

Is there a reason other than cost or do we have a class ruling in SA that prevents it?

I know I am seriously considering adding a kite after I have had a few seasons experience sailing the mozzie as I am currently coming from sailing a Windrush!!! Adding a kite would be a blast downwind..

Cheers

Tony


Tony Mosquito 1743 'Phat Cat'
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Tony_Snape] #68915
03/21/06 07:29 AM
03/21/06 07:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 556
Somers, Westernport Bay, Victo...
Peter_Foulsum Offline
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Peter_Foulsum  Offline
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Somers, Westernport Bay, Victo...
Tony,

I don't know of any reason why the Sth Aus guys aren't following. From what I know, the Mozzie with kite is a grandfathered as a F16 and not yet part of the national Mozzie constitution. Maybe one day it will be and can then be raced in Mozzie state and National titles.

Thought I would have seen some responses from SA by now. Where are you guys ?

Good luck with your Mozzie purchase. Yes !! Another Mozzie in the fleet.


Mosquito 1814
Macka Mozzie
Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Peter_Foulsum] #68916
03/22/06 08:04 AM
03/22/06 08:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Hi Tony & Peter,
The reason the Mosquito is grandfathered as an F16 boat is due to the fact that the South African (the other "SA" ) Mosquito Class had a vote to adopt the spinnaker as part of the sailplan, and came up with 100% of the members voting for it`s inclusion. Prior to that there were only 5 or 6 of us sailing with a spinnaker, and as we were sailing outside of the Mosquito class rules, we felt it would be beneficial for us to belong to the F16 class, which in turn benefitted them since it gave them a presence in South Africa, something which in time should start to grow (slower than other world markets unfortunatley). I really look forward to seeing other makes of cat join into F16 here, but for now we only have Mosquito`s as F16, and we are grandfathered (or dispensated) for being under the min. weight, in exchange for having a much smaller rig than is allowed under the maximum specs.
Since the vote on the spinnaker was positive, our class has gone to 24 odd spinnaker boats, unfortunately that is 99% of our fleet, would love to see more mozzies but no-one is doing any marketing, a general problem in sailing.
You guys have a different situation - the class rules haven`t been amended to allow the spinnaker or include it, and so you can`t use it when sailing in-class ie at Nationals or State titles etc. What you do find though is that at open events the Mozzie guys who have added kites now have the desire to race open events and will attend more of them, since they are no longer regarded as slow boats and have a shot at doing well, and are sometimes "waking up" the bigger or traditionally faster boats. Taipan and A-class sailors don`t enjoy watching Mozzies pass them downwind, I`ve heard . I have personally annoyed a few Hobie Tiger sailors downwind.
My advice : Just get yourself a kite when you`re ready for it, you will add one more to the numbers who can vote for it`s inclusion in the class, and one day the class rules will catch up with what the majority of the sailors want.

Cheers
Steve [Linked Image]

First Gallery on new F16 site is for Mosquito's [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #68917
03/23/06 08:20 AM
03/23/06 08:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

The first boat specific Gallery on new F16 site that was created is for Mosquito F16's. This out of recognition for the mosquito sailors openness and no-nonsense attitude. You guys, complain the least, sail the hardest (fastest) and are prefectly capable of combining your OD races with F16 races without any hassle.

Respect !


http://f16.beasts.org/index.php?opt...;g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=626

The remainder of the new webpage is under contruction

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/23/06 08:21 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #68918
03/24/06 04:11 AM
03/24/06 04:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 97
Adelaide, Australia
Tony_Snape Offline OP
journeyman
Tony_Snape  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 97
Adelaide, Australia
Peter

Thanks for the reply.... I have since found myself a gorgeous mozzie in extremely good condition since initially posting this question about kites... I don't understand why the SA guys aren't kiting up so to speak. Although I am very new to the scene and I am sure there is a pretty good reason of which I am not yet aware. Alas, I would still like to add a kite next season just for the fun factor and open events. Now I must say I am not one for politics so hopefully adding a kite won't stir up any bother. Anyway I have lots of experience to gain before going down this road. Thanks for the replies guys... I thought for a while there no one was game to reply, lol.

Cheers happy sailing...

PS Added a pic of the new acquisition...

Attached Files
70669-Mozzie 3.JPG (506 downloads)

Tony Mosquito 1743 'Phat Cat'
Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Tony_Snape] #68919
03/24/06 11:53 AM
03/24/06 11:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
old hand
David Parker  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
Quote
Added a pic of the new acquisition...


That is a seriously loosened outhaul and downhaul!

Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: David Parker] #68920
03/24/06 07:27 PM
03/24/06 07:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 97
Adelaide, Australia
Tony_Snape Offline OP
journeyman
Tony_Snape  Offline OP
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 97
Adelaide, Australia
Quote
Quote
Added a pic of the new acquisition...


That is a seriously loosened outhaul and downhaul!


Yeh I know... that isn't me sitting on the hull by the way.. that is the current owner. The boat is not available to me until the 29th Apr.


Tony Mosquito 1743 'Phat Cat'
Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Tony_Snape] #68921
03/25/06 08:25 AM
03/25/06 08:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Hi Tony,
I didn`t mean to lead you to believe that there were "politics" involved. I don`t know if there are in Aus, certainly not in S.Africa. I think the resistance of the existing class members in Aus to vote in favour of adding a spinnaker to the Mozzie comes from a small group who would rather leave the boat exactly as it was designed 38 years ago, which would be fine if other classes were not offering a more exciting product as they evolve, or what happens when new designs come on the market is that sailors in established classes move on to newer more exciting or challenging boats. Their argument is that if you change anything on the boat, the existing core group which makes up the class will stop sailing and the class will die. More often than not, however, a change in a positive direction which adds more excitement, crewmember participation, and makes the boat more competitive with other offerings, all at a reasonable add-on cost, has the tendency to not only re-ignite many existing class member`s interest in sailing, but also attracts other sailors/non-sailors to the class who would otherwise have not even looked at the boat.
Of course this is just my opinion, it may be totally different in Aus to what we found happened here.
Even if the spinnaker remains a non-class item, what does it hurt to have one for open-class racing and having fun with the faster boats, and removing it for Mozzie-only events, you have the best of both worlds then.

Steve

Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #68922
03/25/06 10:28 PM
03/25/06 10:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 97
Adelaide, Australia
Tony_Snape Offline OP
journeyman
Tony_Snape  Offline OP
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 97
Adelaide, Australia
Steve

Thats fine... there is usually politics involved somewhere in any club that one decides to associate with. But thats ok... I still intend to fit a kite at some point just for fun and we'll see what happens. I know there are a few guys who I have spoken too who would certainly like to sail a mozzie with a kite but are not prepared to fit one to there own boat for whatever reason, its their boat. Now I have heard a rumour that there are people coming back to the mozzie that left the class some time ago to sail Taipans and the like... you can't beat the cost effectiveness of the mozzie compared to the other high performance cats out there...$270 for a mast is pretty hard to beat... maybe economics is bringing them back and this may drive the mozzie to gain kite acceptance. But as someone has said it could also quite as easily tip the balance of a boat that is at this time, relatively cheap to acquire and maintain. I can see how this could risk the class here in SA. In most cases for someone starting out with a cheaper boat adding a kite would double the price instantly...

Anyway, my beginners perspective.

Tony

PS More pics...

Attached Files
70870-Mozzy.jpg (601 downloads)

Tony Mosquito 1743 'Phat Cat'
Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Tony_Snape] #68923
03/28/06 12:07 AM
03/28/06 12:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
D
Darryn Offline
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Darryn  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Tony,
I am looking forward to seeing your new boat on the race course at Christies with or without a spinnaker.

All,
Mozzy sailors without spinnakers race at open events and are capable of achieving a good result against other classes which use spinnakers and those that dont.

Mosquito Building Rules and restrictions show the latest revision Jan 2001, things like hull constuction methods, hull measurement methods, beam orientation and some sail requirements have been clarified and changed to allow the use of the "latest materials and methods". The rules have changed in the last 38 years, incremental change which I am grateful for since I race an 18 year old Boyer boat. More changes are to be voted on at the next AGM. The Mosquito certainly isnt "exactly as it was designed 38 years ago".
Its a good design utilising advances in materials used in sail and hull construction to allow the Mosquito to keep pace with more recently designed cats.

I have no immediate plans to fit a spinnaker to my boat. I decided against it 6 months ago for various reasons. I have enjoyed watching the development of the Mosquito spinnaker, particularly the few races I have seen it used and looked forward to some more racing against spinnaker equiped Mosquitos.

Darryn
1704


Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Darryn] #68924
03/28/06 12:57 AM
03/28/06 12:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline
old hand
Tim_Mozzie  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Being probably the prime instigator of the Spinnaker development in Australia I think I should add my perspective here.

I don't think there is "politics" involved nor any great resistance within the class against the spinnaker. It hasn't become part of the standard rig, partly because there is a lot of inertia when it comes to changing the Mosquito rules here, but mostly because there hasn't been any need to adopt the spinnaker 100%.

What we have is a class of non-spinnakered Mosquitoes which has been growing slowly for a few years now (and the pace of growth is picking up). We also have a growing group of existing Mosquito sailors and new Mosquito sailors who have rigged spinnakers and are enjoying the benefits [Linked Image].

The sailors with spinnakers don't mind taking them off for the titles (we can see from the results that sailing with a spinnaker all year and taking it off for titles does not hurt your performance !), so things are quite well balanced for now and the class is moving along nicely.

The spinnaker measurement rule has been kicking around for 3 years now and will very likely be added to the Mosquito rules at the next AGM, but that will still only be as an addition. I am certain that one day we will see spinnakers at titles (either alongside the current rig or instead of) but I don't expect it any time soon. As far as I'm concerned we can enjoy the best of both worlds for now.

As far as South Australia goes, I think it is simply that the spinnaker was first flown in Victoria. Other Victorian Mosquito sailors saw how it performed and rigged spinnakers and so it snowballed from there. South Australia has been pretty isolated from all this and the SA sailors haven't seen much spinnaker action (I've flown my spinnaker in the invitation race at most nationals since 2001 to get it seen, but the wind and course have been rubbish for the spinnaker every time).

I think once a few SA sailors get spinnakers rigged and put in the time to master it (don't expect to sail to VYC 80 on the first day out!), more will follow suit.


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
Karma Cat
Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #68925
03/28/06 06:22 PM
03/28/06 06:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Darryn  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Quote
As far as South Australia goes, I think it is simply that the spinnaker was first flown in Victoria. Other Victorian Mosquito sailors saw how it performed and rigged spinnakers and so it snowballed from there. South Australia has been pretty isolated from all this and the SA sailors haven't seen much spinnaker action (I've flown my spinnaker in the invitation race at most nationals since 2001 to get it seen, but the wind and course have been rubbish for the spinnaker every time).

I think once a few SA sailors get spinnakers rigged and put in the time to master it (don't expect to sail to VYC 80 on the first day out!), more will follow suit.


Tim,
I was watching you in the invitation race at Meningie, it didn't look like fun. I've also been watching the drops at the leeward mark, seems like the helm is so busy dealing with the spinnaker it is hard to keep a good lookout for other boats, is that true?

How do you go on handicap against standard Mosquito if you sail a triangle/loop/triangle with the reaches to shy for a spinnaker? Seems like a lot of stuff to carry for 1 leg of the course.
Of course you could just sail windward/returns but non-spinnaker Mosquitos (Mosquito classic?) wont want to do that and since class racing is much better then handicap
racing it makes more sense to race with the Mosquito Classics unless there are a couple of spinnaker equipped Mosquitos which there isn't in SA, yet.

I hope you bring your spinnaker to Christies for the invitation race, we often get a good bit of breeze and some waves and I reckon when I see you handle those conditions and beat MK1's and Mk2's around the course I will be convinced, others too.

Darryn
1704

Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #68926
03/29/06 04:34 AM
03/29/06 04:34 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 97
Adelaide, Australia
Tony_Snape Offline OP
journeyman
Tony_Snape  Offline OP
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 97
Adelaide, Australia
Tim

I hope I am wrong about politics... nothing would please me more. Its just that I posted this subject on kites in SA and "no-one" posted for quite a while although 50 odd people had read the post. This got me thinking something was up... like I had touched a nerve or brought up a previous discussion that had got nasty etc, whatever. Anyway the kite looks like a lot of fun in the right place and being I have fallen in love with the art of sailing I wouldn't mind having a play with one at some point down the road when I have more high performance experience...

Cheers


Tony Mosquito 1743 'Phat Cat'
Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Darryn] #68927
03/29/06 04:38 AM
03/29/06 04:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 97
Adelaide, Australia
Tony_Snape Offline OP
journeyman
Tony_Snape  Offline OP
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 97
Adelaide, Australia
Darryn

Thanks for the kind words...
I agree the kite wouldn't be much chop with the triangle courses run at Christies. I would likely not even use it due to it isolating me from the rest of the fleet... It would be great fun in the Goolwa Milang etc though.
I haven't yet obtained my new mozzie and can not for the life of me expect to add a kite soon as I would be learning to fly and then the inevitable swim, hehehe..

Cheers


Tony Mosquito 1743 'Phat Cat'
Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Darryn] #68928
03/29/06 04:49 AM
03/29/06 04:49 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
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Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Hi Darryn,
Ok, I understand why there may be resistance or why it appears that the spinnaker is not that useful in racing if you guys are still sailing the original olympic course. Circumstances which may not be apparent to others like this make it difficult for us to understand why you WOULDN`T want a spinnaker. Now it makes a bit more sense to me.
In SA (the other one ) we haven`t sailed triangles since 1999, not because of the spinnaker, I believe there is an international trend that moved away from this course based on the new olympic course which also did away with the triangle. I may be wrong here, since I live at the bottom of the world. When sailing Dart 18`s we only used the triangle at the Worlds, and then it was loop, triangle, loop, so only 2 reaching legs in a 8 leg race. Even with such a course it is worthwhile carrying a spinnaker, and sometimes the wind switches a few degrees, meaning that one leg is a tight reach, and the other is free enough to fly the kite unless it is really windy. We sailed the traditional course (triangle loop triangle) a while back at the request of the Hobie 16`s who we shared a course with, and still carried the kite on both reaching legs in 12-15knots - you just have to get out on the wire (while non-spin boats are sitting forward and going slowly).
I believe the trend of catamaran classes to sail loops only as opposed to triangles has come about because, even without the spinnaker, a triangle with two reaches in it leaves very little tactical sailing, all you can do is go high early, everyone is chasing gusts and sailing high, luffing eachother up, and then they all end up running to the mark for the last 200metres. With loops only, the downwind becomes tactical, gybing on shifts and selecting the right side of the course can lose or gain you several places.
It`s not that I`m against triangle courses or fast reaching, just that it does not really lend itself to tactical sailing as much as windward & return courses. As far as I`m aware only the Hobie 16`s in SA still do triangles.

Steve

Re: Mozzie + Kite + SA [Re: Darryn] #68929
03/29/06 05:48 AM
03/29/06 05:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline
old hand
Tim_Mozzie  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Quote

Tim,
I was watching you in the invitation race at Meningie, it didn't look like fun. I've also been watching the drops at the leeward mark, seems like the helm is so busy dealing with the spinnaker it is hard to keep a good lookout for other boats, is that true?

How do you go on handicap against standard Mosquito if you sail a triangle/loop/triangle with the reaches to shy for a spinnaker? Seems like a lot of stuff to carry for 1 leg of the course.


Hi Darryn

It may not have looked like fun but I was having a ball [Linked Image]
That is until that huge gust came through that flattened me just as the race crew abandoned the race.

When I first started racing with the spinnaker the boats without spinnakers used to beat me around the course. I was having a great time breaking records downwind, going past everyone, but when I got to the leeward mark I would spend so long getting the spinnaker put away everyone would get back in front again.

Now, with the boat set up as described on the VMCA website, the spinnaker is nearly always down in 5 to 8 seconds. We dont start pulling it in until we are about 3-4 boat lengths from the mark. Sure you do have more on your hands than you would otherwise but for me that's the whole point of having the spinnaker - downwind without one is simply too slow and quiet on a Mosquito (Bob used to light up his pipe on the downwind legs!). With a spinnaker there are no quiet times during a race - it's a challenge.

The cat championships at McRae and the Eden regatta this year were both run with triangle courses. Whether the spinnakers do well depends on how the triangles are laid and what the wind does. Invariably one reach will be tight and the other broad so the spinnaker goes up on one of the reaches. At Eden the spinnakers won, at McRae Mick Floyd won without a spinnaker (beat me in all but one race). At McRae it was so rough at times I didn't put the spinnaker up because I was flat out just trying to avoid being thrown off the boat. Even so I was only usually beaten by seconds rather than minutes.

If we get a perfectly laid triangle course with more than 15 knots breeze then, you are right, there is no point carrying a spinnaker around the course just for one downwind leg. In practise I've found this only seems to happen at National Titles invitation races [Linked Image]

Obviously I prefer windward leeward courses when we can get them, because like Steve said, they are more tactical. The boats tend to go all over the course looking for gusts and shifts, instead of just following each other around the wing mark. But it's still interesting trying to judge whether or not to try the spinnaker on a reach that may or may not be too tight. The spinnakers go up and down so fast that in flukey conditions they can be put up three or more times just in one leg (the Sauna Sail is a good event for that kind of racing).

The spinnaker is heaps of fun! I only take it off for the titles and that's all.


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
Karma Cat

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