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#7198 - 05/20/02 12:35 PM For Speed Junkies - And only if you care.  
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catsailorp19mx Offline
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Just wanted to share this experience with all you speed junkies.



This past weekend, we were out sailing my friend's Mystere 6.0 in 20+ knots. On a screaming reach, double trapped off the rear beam. My buddy says "oh my........this IS a "happening thing".

"I have never seen those bows digging in like this before". Just wanted to report that the Mystere 6.0 delivers a mean & violent pitchpole. No warning........happens NOW! Spectators from the beach called it "plain ugly". But, the ride....before it ended had the knees knocking, big grin and heart thumping!!!!!!!!!!!!!




-- Have You Seen This? --
#7199 - 05/20/02 02:37 PM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: catsailorp19mx]  
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MauganN20 Offline
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I'm fearing my first pitchpole in my H17. When it happens, I just want to make sure someone's videotaping it so I can show all my friends [Linked Image]

#7200 - 05/20/02 04:09 PM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: MauganN20]  
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catsailorp19mx Offline
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Well, to be honest with you, we kind of wished the incident had been captured on video ourselves. It was one of the most violent that either of us have experienced. The next best thing is the spectator's take on the show. Although if the pitchpole is hairy enough, people have a way of making it sound worse than what it was.



When, and if it happens to you, just hope that you hit the water before anything else. Wires have a way of doing a job on you.

#7201 - 05/20/02 06:58 PM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: catsailorp19mx]  
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Mike Fahle Offline
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Hi Dave, This is why "crew preventers" are so important! Even on a Mystere 6.0 with more hull buoyancy and bigger bows than any other twenty footer, if you fly forward, you are over! BUT, keep your weight fixed at the rear beam and you can stuff it and not go over. Try it and see for yourself. A "quick and dirty" system for grins is just to tie a couple lines on each hull from the rudder pins to hooks that you attach to the trapeze dogbone. You can use shock cord tied to the shrouds to pull them along side the hulls or just stuff them in the rear tramp pocket when not in use, especially when out pressing the boat for giggles. If you like this you can put something better on for long distance racing.

The hard thing for me to get used to was moving back far enough on this boat when pressing it hard because those big bows easily lure you into over confidence in pitchpole resistance. But, get back as far as possible and strap yourself in on a breezy day, and it is quite a treat!

Have fun!



Mike Fahle

#7202 - 05/20/02 10:04 PM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: catsailorp19mx]  
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DHO Offline
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I heard that it's possibe to pitchpole any cat if you pushithard enough.



Yes, a crew keeper might help. I think this is also referred to as a "chicken line". In the Hobie film "Sharing the Wind". They show Dean Froome deliberately stuffing the leeward bow on a TheMightyHobie18. They didn't cartwheel it because they both used a "chicken line."



David HO

TheMightyHobie18 1067

#7203 - 05/21/02 07:54 AM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: DHO]  
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Jake Offline
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We've been discussing various rigging methods for Chicken lines....



http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...ew=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=


Jake Kohl
#7204 - 05/21/02 08:53 AM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: Jake]  
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catsailorp19mx Offline
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Hi:



I am certain that I will probably get differences of opinion on this subject, but I have my own thoughts about "chicken lines".



I don't mind using them in conditions that tend to be "off-and-on". You know the kind...a little stuff there, slamming the forward beam once in a while.........



But I sail in conditions (once in a while) that I would prefer to be "launched" as opposed to breaking my legs, or dislocating my shoulders and arms.



Just like anything else pertaining to sailing, we all have our own likes and dislikes.



Anyway.......nice talking to you.



Dave (sailingfool)

#7205 - 05/21/02 09:12 AM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: Mike Fahle]  
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waterbug_wpb Offline
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Footstraps behind the rear beam are also a good thing. I agree that the moment someone goes forward the boat is toast. Even my I-20 with its bulbous bows will go over if I lose it. I've put it on it's ear before (much to the dismay of my crew), but being solidly attached by one footstrap back there was all it took to drop the stern back down and resume sailing. Funny thing was that it actually took so long to go over (about 2 sec) that I was able to hear quite a few new and colorful metaphors from my crew as she headed for the forestay....

Chicken lines were installed soon after for the crew...



Jay

#7206 - 05/21/02 10:34 AM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: catsailorp19mx]  
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Jake Offline
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what we discussed in the previous thread was to attach the chicken lines to the dogbone and NOT to your person so that you still only have one attachment to the boat.


Jake Kohl
#7207 - 05/21/02 12:20 PM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: Jake]  
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There of lots of possibilities for a reaching/chicken line. Most of which work well also. Depends on how elaborate and what kind of control you want.



Up to now, and probably in the future, I use:



a line thats attaches to the rear gudgeon, and is bungeed fore so that the leeward one stays up near the deck.



My crew holds it with the AFTMOST hand, and the other hand is free to play a sheet or downhaul. the crew puts it down for two handed tasks, and quickly picks it up again.



During a stuff, if I begin to go forward, the crew hods himself and me against his/her aftmost shoulder, and we both remain toward the rear, and on the boat.



When you want to tack/gibe, you just drop it and the bungee trakes it up and out of the way, tidy.



This setup has saved me many a times, when it's used. Especially good with the chute up in heavy air.



I may add a foot strap to the rear foot position to help in this some. Been getting by without one for a long time though.



N6.0na

Sq top/ aym spin/ snuffer


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
#7208 - 05/21/02 09:24 PM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: catsailorp19mx]  
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Mike Fahle Offline
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Hi again Jake, Your message makes me think you have a misconception about the crew preventers (I prefer equipment names that describe the function they perform - chicken lines are a dis-service to these important additions and may dissuade people from using them). Once you are hooked up with the trapeeze and the crew preventer, you are really locked securely in position. There is no way you are going to hurt shoulders or arms or legs or ankles (like foot straps will). The only part of the body that takes more load is the legs but that is compression - it feels like you weigh more because the preventer is holding you back and down to counteract the trapeeze that wants to pull you in and forward (launching you towards the bow). The ones that I have used allow NO movement forward so that you cannot develop a momentum that the line has to stop. So there is no large dynamic force to overcome either by your body parts or boat parts. We passed all the Inter 20s on the second day of the Gold Coast 100 along the shore of Lake Michigan in really bouncy conditions a couple years ago when we were set-up this way and did thirty-five miles in confident comfort. Try this on the lawn at home and you will experience what I am describing. You can literally put your feet together and have someone on the ground try to push you back or forward while in trapeeze and you will be rock solid. It is remarkable!



Mike

#7209 - 05/22/02 08:35 AM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: Mike Fahle]  
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Jake Offline
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Mike,



My reference to attaching them to the dogbone was a matter of safety. I realize that attaching the line straight to your harness would be a more secure arrangement but if I ever did capsize the boat, I would then have two lines to get out of to get clear and away from the boat. My reference to attach it to the dogbone was only to minimize your attachment to the boat for safety and to reduce the amount of connections you needed to make when getting on the wire.


Jake Kohl
#7210 - 05/22/02 09:58 AM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: Mike Fahle]  
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catsailorp19mx Offline
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Hi Mike:



Have to tell you that I like your "crew preventer" set up. Do you think the following idea would work? Attach the "preventer" to the rudder pin....and have "something" that could be used to attach preventer to the thimble of the trap wire. Between the two attachment points, maybe install a cleat that you could "adjust" the fore-aft movement of the trap wire to where you are on the hull.



Just thought I'd run this "probably crazy" idea by you.



I seem to get in this situation when I sail on my friend's Mystere 6.0. On my P19MX (as per Randy's tuning info.) on a screamer, the bows kind of float, and the boat wants to ride on her boards and rudders.



Thanks,

Dave

#7211 - 05/22/02 10:29 AM Footstraps [Re: Todd_Sails]  
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Todd, I agree with your thinking about the chicken lines, although my crew needs both hands for the spinnaker. Having grown quite used to my footstraps on the windsurfers, it was second nature to put one in for my back foot on each side. As the boat stuffs, my front foot can continue to move forward to brace myself, while the back foot can keep me from losing it. I recommend four screws per strap with washers, etc. to spread the load out. Use machine screws and attach with bolts on the inside to further increase the holding power.



For that "HOLY CR_P" spin reaching, a second strap can be added for the back foot of the crew. This usually is just aft of the rear beam.


Jay

#7212 - 05/22/02 11:51 AM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: catsailorp19mx]  
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Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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By using the 'climbers' knot below with the line off the rudder pin, you can slide your adjuster line anywhere up and down the line you wish. I suggested keeping the carabineer hooked to the dogbone to keep it from dragging in the water and/or slapping the side of the boat.











Jake Kohl
#7213 - 05/22/02 07:47 PM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: Jake]  
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Mike Fahle Offline
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Hi Jake, I apologize for using your name in my previous reply... I meant to address it to Dave (the Prindle 19 sailor). There was talk about the people slamming forward with the preventer causing injury and that just does not happen. I tried the prussion reef knot (climber's knot) and it works well. It is much easier than trying to clip into one of a series of loops tied into the line along the hull which is another way I tried. I agree with you to clip it into the dogbone which works better than tying the line to the harness and having the clip at the other end - it makes for fewer lines but it likes to snag things when you tack and move around off the preventer. Again, sorry for getting the wrong name and creating confusion.



Mike Fahle

P.S. to Dave - Push ANY boat hard on a breezy reach, especialyy with spinnaker and waves, and it will pitchpole. I came within a whisker of pitchpoling an F-31 in the Port Huron to Macinack race one year. All four of us needed to change our shorts after that one! Even Playstation nearly pitchpoled which is why Steve turned around and had 25 feet added to the boat with 20 feet in the bows (that are 13' high)!

#7214 - 05/23/02 06:27 AM Re: For Speed Junkies - And only if you care. [Re: Mike Fahle]  
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catsailorp19mx Offline
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Hi Mike:

I do like this forum because we know to whom we are speaking with.

I apologize if I, in any way, indicated that I believe that certain boats will not pitchpole. On the contrary, I'm a firm believer that (given the right conditions.....they ALL will). I hate it when I am not clear in what I want to say!



The reference that I was making was the comparison between how the Mystere 6.0 (and that comparison pertains specifically to the several Mystere 6.0s that I sail against on a regular basis)and the P19MX differ off the wind. And I make no reference to your 6.0, nor your particular sailing skills. (I would never do that).



With my MX set up, my specific boat and my (limited LOL) sailing skills I have made these observations. When we are on the same point of sail (and probably pretty close to the same wind conditions) my bows carry higher in the water. I may be off base, but I attribute this to my jib. When I get hit with a gust, my sailplan promotes acceleration that wants to lift the bows. The Mystere 6.0s want to nose-dive. There are several Mystere 5.5s in our area, and they appear to act the same way. Just my observation.



Very nice conversing with someone so knowledgeable about sailing.



Dave





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