Hi David,

What is unturtle? All SC and ARC products are designed with a mast of sufficient cross section area that when the top 10 to12 ft of mast is submerged, the turned over boat reaches a stable position and the boat turns no further. I guess if the boat won't turtle under normal circumstances then the difficulty to' unturtle' the boat is a mute question.

It sounds like you have had experience with boats that do turtle. I guess their designer didn't think about the boat going turtle and boat safety at the time the mast section was selected.

Safe Sailing, no turtling,

Bill

Thom,

You have to pick your goal and then keep your eye on it. Is the objective of the Pro Sail Circuit to determine:

1. The best catamaran sailor in the country?

or 2. Develope the fastest beach cat in the country?

Pick your goal and then the boat decision is easy.

Bill

The SC/ARC 22 will turtle. My brother and myself, unfortunately turtle one of ours during the 2000 Chesapeake 100. We were able to "unturtle" it by inflating our lifejackets, after running them down (up?) the spinnaker halyard. Any boat will turtle!



TheSC/ARC 22 can be very easily righted from a regular capsize, using its righting system. I have righted in the middle of a Hogsbreath 100 and did not lose a position! Righting is fast and simple.

Bill, Thom and Wf.



I do believe that the sc22 is a great boat. However, it is out of my control to say the series will be run on a specific platform. The series staff and myself have asked for input from designers, builders, sailors, sponsors, broadcasters, and publishers. Most of this input has been that the series bring in new ideas and technologies in the form of Formula racing.



I believe that there will be only 2-3 different boats on the course at best. So in car terms it will be a ford,chevy,dodge showdown much as in nascar. The only difference really is in the bodywork, car setup and driver. I know that this is a very simple way to look at it but, the idea is to develop first and then control the crazies. Most teams/builders will take the straight, narrow and reliable because there is no money to be made if your always broken down.



Oh yes and the series limits a team to how many parts/boats a team can have during a season so to limit the overall costs. Much in the way that IRL and other car series have done.



Steve

Hello Bill-



I agree with you. There is one factor that was pointed out to me on a demo ride I gave on my boat about a month ago. This guy had sailed nothing wider than 8.5' beam. When we started off he commented "its a long way over there isn't it"? I said you get used to it really fast. Then the wind picked up and the acceleration factor set in and you know the rest of the drill. When we returned he said "Its as if I had never been sailing before. Its really that different." Having gone from a Tornado to the SC20 then to the ARC22 [which is going to finally be sailed regularly this summer] it was a gradual change but the differnce between 8.5 and 12" in speed and acceleration and stability really overwhelmed this guy. He loved every minute but really couldn't describe it in words.



That said to your point about about goals. I think you have to experience these boats before you can begin to recognize their potential. I know you wrote the book on 12' beams and am I ever glad you did. But you didn't stop with the SC20. I remember you telling me about extending a hull to about 24' on a SC20 and afterward sailing around to determine the speed difference. Its that innovation process which motivates others to try to excel. I remember when the Tornado first came out and when I finally got one in 1973 I thought no one could ever make a faster boat. Well the SC20 was my next boat.



I personally don't think that the new designs will stay with the SC/ARC22s because there has been too much R&D by you and Tom on this boat but let them build their boats and we will see who wins and who doesn't. If someone builds a boat that weighs 300lbs with all the exotic materials . I don't care who sails the boat the laws of physics still apply.



One design is to determine the best sailor but this Formula 22 concept may bring both the best baot and best sailor to the top over the next few years.



thom

Hi Steve,

The Pro Circuit parallel to NASCAR doesn't hold water. We do not have established followings to three or more manufacturers with a large fan base supporting each. In beachcat sailing we do not have the equivalent of the Ford, Cheve, Dodge race car base or fan base. There is one parallel we can have to NASCAR and that is 'THE CHAMPION OF CHAMPIONS'. The Champion of Champions Race is held in identical cars. It is one design car racing! As I understand your effort, this is your goal.

Bill

Bill,



There are several issues here.



First---- I do not believe that there is a single manufacturer that currently could build 30-40 high quality race boats in a period of a year and still maintain the light weight, low cost, uniformity that a series based upon a single boat requires.



Second ---- I personally believe that competion between designers, builders and the lot brings new technologies and innovation to the sport.



Third --- I do not think that a team who is spending their own dollars is willing to go that far over the known edge in pursuit of speed as to jepordize their chances of finishing an event.



Four --- A team must finish an event to recieve a check worth the time and effort. Even if the series pays a purse to every racing team they have to finish to make it finanically viable to race the entire season.



Five ---- The series is working to encourage a team to race EVERY event. How this will be handled I do not know yet.



I agree that if you want to see the playing field level to find out the best sailor than it probably should be run on a one-design. However, the goal of the series is provide exciting competitive sailing as a sport to the benefit of the series sponsors, sailors, the sailing community and et al.



For this the series will be run on a Formula basis, with certain rules that prohibit run-away spending and multiple platforms. Rules that encourage sailors to race every event and that reward the best sailor, builder, and designer as well as the sport.



Steve

I have just be told that there will be three different designs going to prototype this year and that two builders have finished thier build estimates both fall in the target price range.



Steve

Is the builder selection closed, by invitation, or just anyone can enter designs? Where do you find the basic information or is that a July announcement thing?



Thom

Thom,



The basic information is as follows:



The box rule is currently

being worked out however the following is set in stone.



LOA 22 ft

Max beam 12'6"

Minimum weight fully rigged 300lbs.

Max spar 40 ft measured from base of spar.



crew weight minimum 350lbs ( may have three crew)



Sail Area is being debated at this time and is part of

the overall design process. Designers are invited to

submit a design and recomendation for

approval/debate. Designs will be held confidential

and will not be released to any party other than the

PRO and committee without written release of the

designer/builder.



SA is a heated topic of conversation: However all designs have come in between 1000 sq ft and 1200 sq ft. The major difference is in the size of spinnaker. Since the course is primarily a windward-leeward gate with an offset mark to clear the windward mark. Most designs have been a unirig.



The design process is open with builders being encouraged to submit designs. Notice: Minimum of three boats must be built to qualify and a team can not change designs during the season also parts are limited with the exception of rigging and sails. Colors, team name, and sailors are to be registered.



Thanks

Steve

Steve-



How long a time period before the series begins? Do you wait until they develop these new boats or start racing the ARC/SC22s when the organization is finalized. If you wait for these builders to complete a boat it maybe be quite awhile before things get started...



Thom

Thom,



Thank you for your response. There are several designers/builders that will have a prototype finished before the end of this summer. In order for enough boats to be built series racing will probably not start until early 2004. However, several tuning events will be run in 2003. Also, there will be some training/licensure that the teams will have to complete before they are eligible to race. These details will be forthcoming.



Thanks

Steve



Thom, your sc 22 is eligible and I believe that there will be a modification kit availible for your boat.

Steve-



Will there be a minimum sail area as well? Also will there be specific sailmakers or will that decision be up to the individual sailors to make?



What specific modifications are you speaking about? The stock ARC/SC22 sail plan [main&jib=360sqft]with large spin [742sqft] falls into the 1100-1200sqft range.



I assume that these tuning events will be across the country or in the central section [say Texas to Chicago ]and not just in one area??? Some people won't participate if they have to drive 3000 miles one way to race.



thom

Steve,

Tom Haberman and I designed and started producing the 22 in 1992. The boat was designed to have a PN of 58. That is where the boat is today. Tom has 10 years experience building these boats. Is there any reason why we have not been formally asked to suggest numbers for the Formula 22 box and the rational behind these numbers?

Bill

Bill- I wondered about that myself...Actually I assumed that you were one of the buildders [non disclosed at present] that he was speaking about. Then l went to the original post and the question:

"Question. Should an unmodified sc22 be allowed to compete as long as the boat falls WITHIN the formula rules? "



Then I placed my post about builders. Personally I see no reason for any designer/builder to be excluded.



Thom

Bill,



As we stated when we spoke on the phone. I have called Tom and he has yet to return my call. I do believe that I stated to you that the SC 22 was welcome to compete and asked you two questions.



1. How would you modify the sc 22 to be competitive with new designs on a windward-leeward course. To which you added that you would add some to the mainsail, lengthen the spar and possibly drop the jib.



2. I asked if you wanted to pencil a new design and you stated. "no -- you think that the sc 22 is as perfect as you can get it" Which I do admire.



There is no concerted effort a foot to exclude any manufacturer and the PRO has attempted to contact as many as possible to check the level of interest. Any manufacturer that responded has been givent he opportunity to express their views which has been reviewed by the PRO and staff. The box will be decided by them and upon the public announcement be set in stone. Any builder coming to the table after that time has to live with the decision.



Thom, it was based off this conversation with Bill that I assumed (bad on me) that Bill and Tom would be figuring out a "kit" for existing boats.



Bill, I apologize if you feel slighted in anyway and in the future I will not make statements regarding your products (or anyone else's as it relates to F22) on this forum.



Respectfully,

Steve

Thom,



There will be no minimum sail area that will be part of the tuning process for each team. As you know lighter teams don't need the same sail that heavier teams do and so on.



Personally, SA is a topic that is so hotly debated I think that the series will wait a few months after the announcement to set the max. If you look at it this way: Max spar is 40' so the max main sail area you could possibly build is 400 sq ft (note thats max just mathimatically and not practically). Probably the largest practical main is in the 340-355 sq ft range. So that leaves a spin sa of 845 sq ft. ( nothing that I would care to sail behind).



Since the series is caping the number of sails you can sail in a season to 9 total (registered, measured, marked and electronically tracked). Here is where it gets nuts. DO you build 2 mains and seven spins or 1/8,3/6, 4/5, 7/2 ?????? What do you do? Remember that this is a pro series and sail changes are expected -- hell even encouraged as it raises the level of interest. We as cat sailors are not accustomed to sail strategy but every monohull guy out there is an the series must cater to that demographic as well. I think that a good sailmaker and team can intelligently talk about weight, sa, mast and come up with 2 or 3 combinations that work for all the teams needs. But, max main plus max spin can not exceed max sa. in other words don't bring a 200 sq ft main and 1000 sq ft spin and expect to register a 300 sq ft. main also. Someone is going to scream about that but common sense is that no one is going to fly that combo together and the series is going to rely on a certain amount of self policing. To allow something like that in the tempt area is not good officiating.



Every attempt is being made to reduce costs and still provide an exciting formula racing format. Several builders want the series to run one design. Thats great for certain things but for all the reasons that have been previously posted the series will be formula and that is set in stone.



Personally, I prefer a boat that is solid and tested versus flimsy and unknown but, a 17 months is a long test period for any builder to perfect thier product. On that comment Bill will agree.



Thanks

Steve

One cost that hasn't been discussed as yet is insurance cost. Do you think Namsa could get a group policy that covers all racing events including this. I have spoken to two agents locally and they tried to compare it to nascar but that really doesn't wash because the loss figures don't come close to a comparable figure on equiptment or loss of life.



Personally until I am beaten soundly and consistently by a diffferent design/concept I will run a boat with the proven parameters by Roberts, Haberman and Posey.The spin issue is up for grabs as far as I'm concerned. Those large spins look cool and maybe a crew of three could handle one in medium to heavy air Let me be clear I am not talking about one or two races I mean an entire racing season. Hopefully the races will fall staggered across the country. If its in one general location then make it a central one where the boats can be stored in one place where an airport is within 30 minutes. Traveling to an event is taxing on the crew and the advantage given local guys in this regard is immeasurable.



This Formula 22 could elevate catsailing to a new level or destroy it completely if these new designs start breaking down and hurting people. Especially if its on live TV when it happens. In pro cycling when theres a crash most people can relate because most people had a bike at one time in their life but most people don't own and have not experienced a high performance 22. If it looks like fun then they will try it if ti looks like a disaster they won't. So whoever these designers are and whoever does their R&D had better do their homework and get it right structurally before the public takes a look at this new concept. Its one thing to capsize its another for the mast to tear out of a hull or break a beam.



When I bought my Sailcraft of Canada Tornados in 1973 they were telling me [at the factory in south Montreal] about the process of testing beam wall strength. Apparently they increased wall strength by 1mm at a time and finally extended the dolphin striker into the beam box to support the beam to prevent the mast from driving down through it where the beam met the main beam box. I sailed that boat for six years in some of the heaviest and most violent air I have experienced and sold it. It was still sound but needed a jib.



If I sound like an alarmist I'm not. I just remember when there weren't any production cats around and what the comments were when they arrived. Today I still hear those same comments...



So a comment to the guys running this thing remember: Sail safe Sail fast and Sail to get there...Don't let some builder cut corners to get in the circuit. Make them prove what they have will make it through the season before we spend our money! Theres no guarantee for sponsorship on every boat thats sold for this event. But a couple of structural failures may end the whole thing...



Thom

Thom,



As usual you bring up some very good points. Let me address a few.



Insurance --- there are a couple of companies available to write the policy for each team. This will be part of a package that is sent to teams once we get to that point.



As for designs and their durability. All builders are being told of the series rules that each boat must be able to run the entire series and since each builder is being held responsible for product liability insurance the staff feels that it is self defeating for a builder to build a boat that they know or think might break easily. Additionally, the designers are being told that the boats must be designed to sail in 25knots of wind as the series will not be called until wind speeds exceed that for an extended period of time.



Also, since teams are limited to a design a season and a certain amount of parts iti s also thought that teams will think long and hard before they push the envelope too far in regards to weight for speed.



Generally it is felt that all the designs will fall into the 330-350 lbs range with the main difference being in mast, rigging, and sails weight. If this is true than hull shape and sail plan design will be the only major factors that the boat brings.



Most focus from the teams will probably be in the mast,sail plan configuration as it pertains to each team.



As for the series racing, there will be nine different locations and a week long championship. The sites will be announced shortly but are prestigous and have a strong constant wind speed average. 3 west coast sites, 3 mid west sites, and 3 eastern us sites. WIth the championship series in southern us.



Steve

Steve-



What about teams costs? Have you any thoughts as to what approximate costs and whether you should cap it?



Also will factory, builder, sailmaker and or a combination of these be allowed to compete as a team?



Thom