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#76554 - 05/31/06 11:03 PM Multihulls in the America's Cup  
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H17cat Offline
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See the following from Scuttlebutt.
SCUTTLEBUTT 2106 - June 1, 2006 (http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com)
Scuttlebutt is a digest of major yacht racing news, commentary,
opinions, features and dock talk . . . with a North American focus.


GUEST EDITORIAL -- Bill Lee
It is clearly time for the America's Cup to be raced in multihulls. If
The Cup is to include technology, it should be real breakthrough
advancement, not just trying to make the basic leadmine go 0.1 knots
faster. If is often argued that heavily ballasted boats are good for The
Cup because they can't squirt away from each other in a local puff,
Instead they will remain close and the racing will be tactical and
exciting. In reality, with the current boats and format, once one boat
wins the start, the lead seldom changes and the racing is rather boring.
If keeping the boats closer together is an objective, a far more
effective approach is to have much shorter races and many more of them.
An afternoon of racing should be the best 5 out of 9 with 15 minute
races and a strict 5 minutes in between.

Multihulls do have a much wider variety of spectacular and catastrophic
failure modes. For the team, avoiding these failure modes is the key to
winning. For the spectators, it is often the best part. There are other
advantages to multihulls. They weigh little more than a current AC boat
mast. What a savings in carbon fiber! The land based compounds can be
simpler and the need to ship (or fly) 40,000 pound bulbs is eliminated.
Less draft means venues can be closer in for better viewing. Multihulls
would attract huge new interest, both in technology and spectators. "The
Wizard says it's time." -- Bill Lee

-- Have You Seen This? --
#76555 - 06/01/06 03:49 AM Re: Multihulls in the America's Cup [Re: H17cat]  
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Jalani Offline
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Hey! You know what? We could have a series just like the America's Cup, but sail it in multihulls! It could be run along the same lines as the AC, with a Deed of Gift and all that.

Now let's see, what shall we call it?............................... I know! How about the Little America's Cup?

Oh sorry! We're not allowed to use that name are we? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
#76556 - 06/01/06 06:14 AM Re: Multihulls in the America's Cup [Re: Jalani]  
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I'd opt for a fleet-style racing series rather than a match race. To me, that would be more representative of what most "average" racers are familiar with. Would give the spectators more to watch, as well.

#76557 - 06/01/06 06:16 AM Re: Multihulls in the America's Cup [Re: Jalani]  
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Jake Offline
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South Carolina
The problem is that the "no-holds barred" open development stuff is that it has been resulting in a runaway win. Booth and gang have really hit on something with the Extreme 40 catamaran class by having the racing up close and personal. The competition is also very close (as one would expect with a one-design class). I don't think we will ever see the AC would ever go to something like this format...but I think that something like the Extreme 40's could easily build their own championship that could be comparable - but I think we'll see it continue along the lines of sponsorship (ala "Team Motorola", "Team Hillfiger", etc.) instead of country allegiance (this would be really neat though).


Jake Kohl
#76558 - 06/01/06 06:36 AM Re: Multihulls in the America's Cup [Re: H17cat]  
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Someone quoted this article on thebeachcats Yahoo list, and I there suggested as I'll suggest here... I do believe that Mr Lee is being facetious, especially with the suggestions re: 'spectacular...failure modes'

More of the same.

#76559 - 06/01/06 08:33 AM Re: Multihulls in the America's Cup [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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Keith Offline
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Quote
I'd opt for a fleet-style racing series rather than a match race. To me, that would be more representative of what most "average" racers are familiar with. Would give the spectators more to watch, as well.


Although Fleet racing is what most of us know, actually in keel boats as well, I for one would like to see match racing in development class boats like the AC. The reason for my desire is that the handling characteristics that match racing seems to stress (at least in the keel boats) would be great to see developed in multihulls. The jockeying for the start, the need for fast and effective tacking... Of course, to make that happen you need to keep the boats fairly close. In addition to the design elements, it would stress different things for the racers that multis don't usually stress.

#76560 - 06/01/06 08:57 AM Re: Multihulls in the America's Cup [Re: Keith]  
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blunted Offline
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blunted  Offline
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Toronto
Well I think match racing in multihulls is pretty cool.

We'll keep you posted on our Little Americas Cup status.

Persoanlly I'd love to line up a C-cat against and IACC boat just to demonstrate how boring those big pigs are.

Failing that I think we'll try to run some C-cat courses on the same size course as the AC just to see the difference in elapsed times.


I cut it twice and its still too short
#76561 - 06/01/06 09:02 AM Re: Multihulls in the America's Cup [Re: tami]  
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Quote
I do believe that Mr Lee is being facetious, especially with the suggestions re: 'spectacular...failure modes'

Tami:
I took his "failure modes" to be along the lines of this.
[Linked Image]



F16 Blade 716
#76562 - 06/01/06 09:29 AM Re: Multihulls in the America's Cup [Re: H17cat]  
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Acat230 Offline
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LA
Match racing in multihulls is a blast. When we raced the defender series for the 2004 ICCT in F-18HT's, we had some very exciting racing against Johnny Lovell and Charlie Ogletree. The pre-starts are full of action and with the speed of the boats, you have to react fast to your opponent. Also, because the boats have no momentum, it adds a different perspective in contrast to the long "dialups" you see in the IACC events. Once the racing starts, things happen fast. We went down 4 to 1 against the Tornado silver medalists but felt great about our racing since their biggest winning margin against us was only 20 seconds. In particular, we had one race in 15-18 knots of wind where we were trying to get over them to windward on a downwind leg and Johnny was throwing some pretty aggressive luffs at us. With the chutes up, we were both on the edge of wiping out the entire downwind leg and they nipped us by seconds at the line. The umpires and judges were impressed and told us that was about the most exciting sailing they had ever seen.

We need more multihull match racing events and perhaps some team racing(?).

Bob Hodges

#76563 - 06/01/06 09:52 AM Humm ! [Re: tami]  
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

facetious, especially with the suggestions re: 'spectacular...failure modes'



What type of boat holds both the round the world records and 24-hour records ? Was raced around the world without any major mishap as we have seen in the Volvo ocean race ? Or has yet to see a single sailor die in such race? And they are linking up "spectacular failure modes" with multihulls ?

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/01/06 09:53 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#76564 - 06/01/06 10:30 AM Re: Multihulls in the America's Cup [Re: Keith]  
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Crofton, MD
Keith will sometimes engage us in pre-start match racing type maneuvers and it is really fun. It is also a good way to get a bunch of close quarters maneuvering practice. When we are doing well at it, there is not much talking going on, just doing, and doing quickly. As in let’s tack, gybe, and lets try scraping him off on that moored boat or starboard tacker. We should, wind permitting, do more of this. Only downside is loosing track of starting with the rest of the fleet. But, ideally that is part of the learning I think, as in control your opponent and get the start you strategically desire. It must be fun to watch as well.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
#76565 - 06/01/06 11:24 AM Re: Multihulls in the America's Cup [Re: Chris9]  
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Keith Offline
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Chris - just wait, it's getting warm enough to bring the water cannon back! Arrgh! Prepare for boarding! Actually, given the quality of my starts I'm just trying to make somebody else's start equally bad. Misery loves company...

Actually, on the match racing thing, I always thought it would be fun at the end of a season for the clubs in an area to send their season's "Champion" to a match racing event against the other clubs' "Champions". It would be a fun way to tie clubs and sailors together and might make for a hellava party. Some logistics obviously would be hard, but I'm sure all the creative minds could make something like this work if we didn't take it too overly serious. You could do it at the end of the year, or at the beginning of the next year. Depending on the number of participants and time, you might only need to rustle up two loaner boats (maybe one or two extra) if the various clubs don't sail the weapon of choice. It could even be fun having the meeting at the beginning of the season that lays out the ground rules (ie this year's run off will be on Hobie 14 turbos, Reynolds 33s, or whatever, boats get switched between rounds, any team that performs too well does a round of tequila shots before the next race, etc.).

Last edited by Keith; 06/01/06 11:25 AM.
#76566 - 06/01/06 12:53 PM Re: Multihulls in the America's Cup [Re: Keith]  
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Sorry about throwing that beer a little short the other night! I should know better than to try and put a hole in your hull. I should be trying to carry away your spars! Especially, with the crappy bear I was throwing at you guys.

If you were with us at the start last Tuesday, you would have been under everyone else like us and would have been brining up the butt end of the fleet. It was pretty cool to gybe away from everyone and then round the first mark in first. That was a race highlight!


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
#76567 - 06/01/06 07:48 PM Re: Humm ! [Re: Wouter]  
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Come on guys, the AC will never be sailed in "affordable" "fast" craft of any kind.
You only have to look at the concept behind the AC.
It's all about the ultra rich boys toys. The more it costs, the harder it is for the "rabble" to be able to participate.
It was stated many years past that, "they should bring back J class for the cup, then it could only be contested by men of substance". This of course meant that only the ultra wealthy would be able to afford to "show off", and compete tastefully with their money for all to see, and they wouldn't be hindered by "poor" upstart folk with ability “muddying” their “fun”. If it was only about sailing competitiveness, the ability of the sailors on the water, and “fairness” the dinosaurs that have always been used would all be the “fossils” that they deserve to be by now.
In years past the boats used to be sailed by a hired professional crew who actually did the “sailing”, and the owners used to occasionally be onboard with their invited friends to sip drinks, socialise, and occasionally take an interest in how well the “sweaty, lower class hired help” were doing. Nothing much has really changed has it? Except that the owners now watch from their private multi million dollar floating palaces, their private helicopters, or from their six star accommodation (the “poor” only have five star) on direct satellite, BIG screen TV.
What happened when Dennis Conner out of necessity, “whipped the butt” of the Kiwis with a cat? Did anyone in the AC fraternity say, “hey guy’s, these things really go fast, they are a lot cheaper and they are great to watch, lets adopt them for the cup”? I don’t think so. They couldn’t wait to rid themselves of all memory of the event.

#76568 - 06/01/06 09:16 PM Re: Humm ! [Re: Wouter]  
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C2 Mike Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Quote

Quote

facetious, especially with the suggestions re: 'spectacular...failure modes'



What type of boat holds both the round the world records and 24-hour records ? Was raced around the world without any major mishap as we have seen in the Volvo ocean race ? Or has yet to see a single sailor die in such race? And they are linking up "spectacular failure modes" with multihulls ?

Wouter


I am certainly pro catamaran and think they are severely under-rated however be careful about making big claims like the above. Surely claims of no deaths etc might be setting ourselves up for a big fall if it ever happens.

Tiger Mike

#76569 - 06/01/06 09:55 PM Re: Humm ! [Re: C2 Mike]  
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A chap by the name of Donald Crowhurst in an early (the first?) "around alone" sailed round and round in the Atlantic on his multihull, "pretending" that he was sailing the race legitimately, “around the world", and was going to sail to the finish after an acceptable time, disappeared overboard, (probably went mad from guilt and committed suicide, is the consensus). Does that count as a "lost at sea from off of a multihull” in a solo "around the world?

#76570 - 06/01/06 10:09 PM Re: Humm ! [Re: Darryl_Barrett]  
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Dennis Connor and Randy Smyth already WON an America's Cup on a 60' Cat (Stars and Stripes, 1988?) against that 140' super Mono owned by that guy from down under, Fay was it? No doubt cats are faster and more stable but their "failure mode" is nothing compared to the failures of many AC boats in recent years, remeber the one that cracked in half and sunk?


Blade F16
#777
#76571 - 06/01/06 11:35 PM Re: Humm ! [Re: Timbo]  
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“an island in the Pacific.â€...
Quote
Dennis Connor and Randy Smyth already WON an America's Cup on a 60' Cat (Stars and Stripes, 1988?) against that 140' super Mono owned by that guy from down under, Fay was it?
I saw Fay's boat up on the hard in the Auckland harbor. It was next to Black Magic. Fay's boat was HUGE! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
#76572 - 06/01/06 11:54 PM Re: Humm ! [Re: hobie1616]  
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Mike, one of the Stars and Stripes's was down at Buzz's Warf a few years back. I think they made three. They had both hard and soft sails. It still may be on Maui.
Caleb

#76573 - 06/02/06 02:17 AM Re: Humm ! [Re: Wouter]  
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Dermot Offline
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Dermot  Offline
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Quote

Quote

facetious, especially with the suggestions re: 'spectacular...failure modes'

What type of boat holds both the round the world records and 24-hour records ? Was raced around the world without any major mishap as we have seen in the Volvo ocean race ? Or has yet to see a single sailor die in such race? And they are linking up "spectacular failure modes" with multihulls ?
Wouter

Unfortunately quite a few sailors mainly French, have died in multihull races, across the atlantic, if not around the world.


Dermot
Catapult 265
www.catamaran.ie
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