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Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: MarkW_F18] #77103
06/09/06 02:21 AM
06/09/06 02:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline OP
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Some interesting discussion.
It seems that as I suspected, cat sailing world wide is only moving along slowly and it would appear that there is not a lot of effort being made to promote it. There's plenty that could be done but it seems there's a shortage of dedicated people to do the work. It's usually left to volunteers to do the organising but it's always difficult to get people to put their hand up as it's often a thankless and time consuming job.

I too think that the established manufacturers have much to answer for. I know sales are down and the profit margins are small but there seems to be plenty of money to put new boats on the market (F18/F16/Extreme 40, more and more cruising designs etc) but it's very short sighted to leave the very crucial recruitment of potential users to amateurs. Just my 2c worth.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: Berny] #77104
06/09/06 08:35 AM
06/09/06 08:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
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Last year our local cat fleet(The SEACATS) hosted an "Adopt a Monohuller" day at the local sailing club where a few of us sail from. We took a few of the guys out, and everyone had a good time. No one converted, but they at least have a better appreciation of speed. My next venture will be to organize a racing series, start with Sunfish the first race, maybe Laser the 2nd, then Hobie 16 the last race. Run it round robin style, and maybe have heat races like the Alter Cup. Maybe this will peak some interest, and bring out the monohull boys.


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: dave mosley] #77105
06/09/06 10:51 AM
06/09/06 10:51 AM
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Syracuse, NY Hobie Fleet 204
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Tom Korz Offline
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Syracuse, NY Hobie Fleet 204
Here's how you get new sailors

From our forum

[color:"red"]It was so exciting watching the awesome starts from the committee boat. You guys are really aggresive and have excellent timing. 2 new lady skippers out last night!!! Marie with Darcy on the front and Bev with Pappy on the front (where was harness?) 2 girls age 10 & 11 racing with their Dads. 1 youth back on the scene kicking butt watch out for Matt Perkins and the other Youth Sam Ingam with Dad on the front. 12 hobie 16's and 1 Tiger completed 3 races in 8-12 with dark skies. Bullets by Adam & Scooter, Micheal & ?, Tom & Erika. Thanks to my crack RC team of Diane, Rakel, Mimi and Perk [/color]

[color:"blue"]It was a GREAT night!

Learned much, have much to learn, had a BALL!

Speaking of which...

Pappy did have his harness on, just couldn't c it under the coat - he become MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE after he trapped - felt better driving with him on the wire as well.

Thanks very much to Mike Spondello for the generous use of his boat - Luv u Mikey <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pat - I will take you up on your offer to go out and practice tacks, general sailing. First learn to sail - then learn to race. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />:)

What a wonderful bunch of folks we have in 204 - very proud and happy to be a part of such a great family <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

B <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

[color:"red"]B said it for me. Wonderful folks we have in 204, very proud to be a part of a great family. OOOOXXXX to all for your help and support.

[/color]
Many new skippers, ladies with sticks in their hands and lots of ute sailors!!!

Keep the faith ~/) ~/) ~/) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: Tom Korz] #77106
06/09/06 12:43 PM
06/09/06 12:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Folks you are confusing two issues.

How to get people into cat sailing is very different from how to get them into cat racing. (of course it’s a chicken and egg proposition but you need to focus on the two separately)

Cat sailing is a recreational activity or past time that falls under the umbrella called boating. Access to this unique form of recreational boating is through resorts and the local hobie dealer selling boats like Hobie Wave. Escape, and Bravo line of boats. What these folks want are good cheap reliable boats that don’t need much maintenance and are turn key so that you are recreating quickly. You can go cat sailing by yourself and back in the hey day… many of these boaters populated the public beaches…mostly with their family and friends. Why did they stop sailing?… where did they go? … probably has many answers but it’s likely that some moved up to monohulls or the F boat trimarans…. Others just got tired of the activity and moved on to a new challenge when the boat got old or kids limited their ability to get on the water.

What’s important to realize here is that NO ORGANIZATION is needed or really wanted by these folks. They are just like the huge number of recreational sailors with their boats in a marina… few belong to any local organization. If they want anything organized… it’s centered around a social outing… So,… groups like Singles on Sailboats, or the Catalina owners group arrange a cruise to X for the weekend and now their fun solo activity is also social and more fun. In the catamaran world… a few places come to mind where these sailors congregate. Sandy Hook Catamaran Club has over a hundred boats on the beach and the vast majority are pleasure sailors…. The club provides a beach parking spot and a social group of sailors if they want it. A club near Chicago with cheap beach space parking that apparently never turns over and most of the sailors come down to recreationally sail a few times a year…. If the price went up… or they had to move their boats once a year (yacht clubs frequently insist that the boat move out of the club once a year so that they weed out those owners who don’t want to participate in the club activities) The facility might disappear. On the Chesapeake… Hobie cat’s are scattered on small bits of private property, or in commercial marina’s…. Cat Sailing is an individual pastime that you share with family and a few friends.

So, the question is…. WHO should be marketing and enrolling people in this activity? What should they be doing? Who is their target?
Seems to me… this is the boat dealers responsibility or perhaps US Sailing’s responsibility. All of these answers are a bit fuzzy to me. I personally don’t want to build or support a social club.

I can’t think of any leaders in the US catamaran sailing scene who take on this job of running a catamaran social club? Anyone have any nominations… Perhaps the Learn to sail guys with the Hobie 101 program in Oregon??? Or Jeff Rabidaux.??? Who is trying to revive a social hobie fleet in the midwest. Maybe the Sandy Hook guys. Those people could speak up and tell us what’s needed to make this kind of thing happen and what it takes to draw in social catamaran sailors into a club OR and how do they help the local dealer sell boats. In my experience… the racing sailors are not interested in this initiative and so counting on us to pull this off will be a waiting for Godot scene


Cat Racing is a sport!
Those of us who are organizing and running clubs are interested in creating an organization that is fun to be in and is focused on excellence in cat racing. Many of the clubs include this in the name… CRAC… CRAM.... OCRA. …. Those R’s stand for racing!
So… when you ask the question… how do you get more people involved into this activity…. The answers will be very different. If you don’t have a group of people racing…. You have a pretty lame race.

Who should be marketing this activity?
The answer is VERY CLEAR… it should be and is marketed by the Racing catamaran clubs, the Racing Class Association, and the builders and dealers of racing boats. How well we do this is of course open to debate.

What should we be doing?
Again the answers are easy… check out the thread “what makes a great regatta?”
The answers, are run great regattas with a great venue, great race committee, great competition, and less important are the social activities and food. Truly great events manage all of the above.
Long term growth and health are addressed continually by classes. US Sailing organizes a yearly meeting (One design Class Association symposium) where all of the classes discuss ideas on how to deliver quality racing that meets the needs of their members. Check out my reports on the Annapolis One design forum and attend the one in your area when it comes around. For a recent success story check out the growth of the A class…. How many people would have expected that an expensive single handed boat would be the fastest growing class in the USA?

Who should you market to?

This gets to be interesting…. Because it frequently looks like AND IS a zero sum game.
You rob from one class in order to build your own favorite class.
Hell.. Hobie threw out all of the open boats because they decided that the sailors were looking at the newer non hobie boats… and choosing those boats and not the Hobie’s…. No net growth… just a loss on their side of the ledger… in their mind.
Sailing clubs are also very protective of their existing classes….Any new class will cut into the participation in an existing class… So… no new classes!
Nevertheless… some classes grow (A cats) and some die off (Nacra 6.0’s). mind you these boats have second lives with the recreational sailors.

Catamaran clubs look at all of the rail meet on the mono’s and say… Damn…. Some of those boys ought to be on a racing beach cat…. So… we are starting to do the big monohull races… Annapolis to St Michaels and three or 4 others on the bay, the three Distance races in California…. The Miami to Key Largo race… Around Newport race?
The idea is that if you pass them to weather on the first lap and to leeward the second time… they will get the idea that fast is fun. We need better ideas on how to introduce those guys to the performance catamaran.

What else can you do?

Simply STEAL THEIR KIDS HEARTS!
CRAC, Fleet 54 and Hobie Div 11 along with the Miles River Yacht Club are running a junior Hobie 16 regatta this summer. The Div 11 junior sailors get to go race at a top tier yacht club with pool, great facilities (and a Tiki bar for their parents). What’s new and exciting is that we are also LOANING boats to the CBYRA 420 and Laser racing junior sailors for the weekend regatta. We have US Sailing insurance for the borrowed boats and the idea is to introduce the SPORT of CAT RACING to RACING JR SAILORS.

So, this is what CRAC is about…. What’s your clubs initiative?

See Tom's post about how Fleet 204 is going about it. They try the low key racing approach with lots of kids on the water for weeknight sailing.

West River Catamaran Racing Assn on the chesapeake uses the single 3-4 mile tuesday night race to get people going rather then lots of intense mark roundings on the weekends.

What else do people do? What's your focus?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: Mark Schneider] #77107
06/09/06 01:17 PM
06/09/06 01:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 454
Syracuse, NY Hobie Fleet 204
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Tom Korz Offline
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Syracuse, NY Hobie Fleet 204
Mark, et al,
we seem to get all sorts of people into sailing, racing or otherwise. It seem that we get both racers and non racers showing up at our events. (Races or other events) This is evidenced by the large numbers of people on hand to help with flags, launching boats etc.

Frankly, we can't seem to slow our growth down. every season we see new folks on the water. Some stick around and some move on.

I think the key to this is having a central meeting and sailing venue, Which we are very fortunate to have. We also promte learn to sail days and are present at local boat shows also. Our core group of more experienced sailors are quite approachable to new sailors, almost to a fault.

And yes the racing is very important to allo of this, BUT, while it is fun to win, the important issue is getting out on the water with your friends and your potential new friends and participating.

Off to Spray Beach to race with my 10 yr old

Point High & foot fast!!!!!

Tom

Attached Files
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Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: Tom Korz] #77108
06/09/06 01:33 PM
06/09/06 01:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
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Issaquah, WA, USA
It all goes back to the local people volunteering and taking part. Click on Schedule at http://www.div4.hobieclass.com/ for some of our results in the Northwest, the pictures show the results. It is not all about racing, but we have that too. Alter Cup Area H Qualifier this weekend at Skamokawa, WA. Also see www.sailsandpoint.org Local community sailing groups must step up to make it happen. US SAILING and other groups can make recommendations, but it is up to the local sailors to make it happen.
Caleb Tarleton, Sail Sand Point, Hobie Cat Fleet 95, Div.4, and US SAILING, Multihull Council.

Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: H17cat] #77109
06/14/06 04:29 PM
06/14/06 04:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22
Georgia
Bcatsailor Offline
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Georgia
I am a "new" H16 crew/sailor - I got into it because someone who cared, ASKED. Just like everyone else in the local fleet, they all care about the growth of the SPORT, the great times shared in RECREATIONAL SAILING, and the desire to see the class stay around and be enjoyed by ALL.

I can't tell enough people about it! I look forward to learning more and more about sailing in general, and now that I am starting to skipper, I will be learning to RACE.

We have very approachable folks who are willing to teach, encourage and assist whenever possible. Sometimes, at the cost of doing well in an event.

Can't wait to get my own boat (next summer??? That's the goal), introduce my kids, my sister, and friends to it - This is a "sport" to be enjoyed for a LIFETIME...and to be passed on enthusiastically <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />:):)


Fj and proud of it
Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: Bcatsailor] #77110
06/14/06 04:39 PM
06/14/06 04:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline
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Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: fin.] #77111
06/14/06 05:36 PM
06/14/06 05:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22
Georgia
Bcatsailor Offline
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Bcatsailor  Offline
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Georgia
GREAT pic!

Very good article - Haven't been in FL sailing much - Went in January, Tradewinds - Sailed on a Tiger...Had plenty of boats.

Sailed this past weekend at Spray Beach - In a bay, not really open ocean. PLENTY of wind, however. Rich McVeigh gave a nice recap...

http://www.fleet204.com/204um/ShowMessage.asp?ID=4208

BTW - The attached pic is NOT from this past wknd - its from Spring Fever / Easter Weekend

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Fj and proud of it
Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: Bcatsailor] #77112
06/14/06 06:25 PM
06/14/06 06:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 471
NC
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drbinkle Offline
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Quote
BTW - The attached pic is NOT from this past wknd - its from Spring Fever / Easter Weekend


I remember that very well.....except from behind <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. You guys were fast at Spring Fever.

Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: drbinkle] #77113
06/15/06 07:46 AM
06/15/06 07:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22
Georgia
Bcatsailor Offline
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Georgia
Yeah, we were "clicking" really well that Weekend. Was BEAUTIFUL weather, and a great start to our season ~ C U at more events <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />:):):)


Fj and proud of it
Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: Bcatsailor] #77114
06/20/06 10:29 PM
06/20/06 10:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 47
California
Skipshot Offline
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Skipshot  Offline
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California
It's possible everyone's posting here is correct, but not the complete explanation. Nor will I claim to have the answer, but another piece of the puzzle. One may be that these days with many new and different recreational options available, sailing's slice of the pie has grown smaller with the competition from other activities.

Another piece may be that sailing takes a special kind of person, and catamarans take a special kind of sailor. Not everyone sees the risk of a ferocious pitchpole worth the benefit of speed.

Another piece may be what my inexperienced impression of sailing was - boring. Boring compared to PWCs, wakeboarding, windsurfing, and now kitesurfing (which is replacing windsurfing). Boring until someone took me out for my first time on a sailboat, which happened to be a Hobie 16, and got me hooked within 15 minutes. My in-laws are all sailors on monohulls, and didn't understand my need to get a cat until I bought one and took them for a ride. Now they get it.

Too complicated. An inexperienced eye looking at a sailboat is put off by all the lines and wires, not to mention having to know how to get the boat to move while being at the mercy of the wind.

And lastly, it may just be our need for confirmation or affirmation of our love of cats that make us want more people to join us - much like a new religious convert wants to spread the word of his new religion to get more people to join because he believes what is good for him must be good for everyone.

Somehow it all balances out, and the ones who truely enjoy cats will stay that way, while the dilettantes naturally weed themselves out.

Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: Skipshot] #77115
06/21/06 04:07 AM
06/21/06 04:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,074
Northfield,NH USA
bullswan Offline
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Northfield,NH USA
Quote
It's possible everyone's posting here is correct, but not the complete explanation. Nor will I claim to have the answer, but another piece of the puzzle. One may be that these days with many new and different recreational options available, sailing's slice of the pie has grown smaller with the competition from other activities.

Another piece may be that sailing takes a special kind of person, and catamarans take a special kind of sailor. Not everyone sees the risk of a ferocious pitchpole worth the benefit of speed.

Another piece may be what my inexperienced impression of sailing was - boring. Boring compared to PWCs, wakeboarding, windsurfing, and now kitesurfing (which is replacing windsurfing). Boring until someone took me out for my first time on a sailboat, which happened to be a Hobie 16, and got me hooked within 15 minutes. My in-laws are all sailors on monohulls, and didn't understand my need to get a cat until I bought one and took them for a ride. Now they get it.

Too complicated. An inexperienced eye looking at a sailboat is put off by all the lines and wires, not to mention having to know how to get the boat to move while being at the mercy of the wind.

And lastly, it may just be our need for confirmation or affirmation of our love of cats that make us want more people to join us - much like a new religious convert wants to spread the word of his new religion to get more people to join because he believes what is good for him must be good for everyone.

Somehow it all balances out, and the ones who truely enjoy cats will stay that way, while the dilettantes naturally weed themselves out.


Word.
sad in some respects, but I believe true nevertheless.


The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised. - George Will
"It's not that liberals aren't smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so" -Ronald Reagan
Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: Skipshot] #77116
06/21/06 12:22 PM
06/21/06 12:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline
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Quote
. . .sailing takes a special kind of person,


Like these. There were about 20 new sailors, some seemed as young as 8 others were in their early teens. They were coached by about one adult with 20+ years experience and 6-8 young volunteers. Most of the volunteers were former students.

Producing young sailors takes work and dedication.

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Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: fin.] #77117
06/21/06 12:56 PM
06/21/06 12:56 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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JeffS  Offline
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Kingston SE South Australia
Its worth the work and dedication to get the young ones in or who will we be racing against in twenty years time, doing screaming reaches backwards and forwards is great fun but would you do it in all weather every weekend on your own


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: JeffS] #77118
06/21/06 04:03 PM
06/21/06 04:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline OP
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Berny  Offline OP
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Sydney Australia
Quote
It's possible everyone's posting here is correct, but not the complete explanation. Nor will I claim to have the answer, but another piece of the puzzle. One may be that these days with many new and different recreational options available, sailing's slice of the pie has grown smaller with the competition from other activities.

Another piece may be what my inexperienced impression of sailing was - boring. Boring compared to PWCs, wakeboarding, windsurfing, and now kitesurfing (which is replacing windsurfing). Boring until someone took me out for my first time on a sailboat, which happened to be a Hobie 16, and got me hooked within 15 minutes. My in-laws are all sailors on monohulls, and didn't understand my need to get a cat until I bought one and took them for a ride. Now they get it.

Too complicated. An inexperienced eye looking at a sailboat is put off by all the lines and wires, not to mention having to know how to get the boat to move while being at the mercy of the wind.


There's no doubt we now have 'many new and different recreational options available' but as I see it, and much of what you say is indicative, there is very little being done to encourage and/or sell sailing to younger people, particularly cat sailing/racing. There seems to be plenty of money to build bigger and faster boats in ever more diverse classes for the cashed up minority but there's not much money around for youth training.

One of the problems sailing has selling itself to prospective participants is the difficulties of televising regattas. Unlike football, golf, basket ball etc, we don't have regular television broadcasts of sailing. The mechanics and environment are such that making an epic video which Joe Average can relate to, is very difficult. Technically it's difficult and it is seen as complicated and there are no good commentators with sufficient knowledge to adequately explain what's is going on. It's been done but not well IMHO. Mostly these telecasts only cater to the sailing-wise. It could be done so much better and considering there is a huge amount of advertising space on a set of sails, it's got to be lucrative. The commentator/s is/are the key. I remember the Sydney Olympics and the pathetic and often blatantly derogatory commentary that went with the sailing telecasts here in Oz. It was a bloody embarrassment to anyone watching with any knowledge at all of sailing. An absolute disgrace.

It would seem to me that some good money needs to be directed toward educating the public, training youth to sail, and finding some good sailing commentators.

Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: Berny] #77119
07/09/06 03:13 PM
07/09/06 03:13 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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JeffS  Offline
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Kingston SE South Australia
Your spot on Berny our local school has five 420's that only see the light of day a couple of times a year. The problem with trying to enthuse young kids and get them confident is time how do we rig, sail, supervise them and also get a race ourselves.


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: JeffS] #77120
07/09/06 05:04 PM
07/09/06 05:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
I don't really see a problem, as far as getting more kids sailing, in general. In the United States we have thousands of kids sailing in programs at yacht clubs; and the numerous Junior Olympic Festivals around the country all attract hundreds of kids.

The problem is that most catamaran sailors in the U.S. do not seem to belong to yacht clubs, so all those kids learning on Optis, JY's, 420's, etc., do not get exposure to catamarans. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And so far the catamaran community has not been successful in getting a catamaran class included in the Junior Olympic Festivals. And that is because the catamaran community does not have an organized junior sailing program. And THAT, in my humble opinion, is because we are not involved with the yacht clubs.

There are lots of kids sailing, but we, and our boats, need to be where they are.

Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: Mary] #77121
07/09/06 05:24 PM
07/09/06 05:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline OP
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Quote
I don't really see a problem, as far as getting more kids sailing, in general. In the United States we have thousands of kids sailing in programs at yacht clubs; and the numerous Junior Olympic Festivals around the country all attract hundreds of kids.

The problem is that most catamaran sailors in the U.S. do not seem to belong to yacht clubs, so all those kids learning on Optis, JY's, 420's, etc., do not get exposure to catamarans. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And so far the catamaran community has not been successful in getting a catamaran class included in the Junior Olympic Festivals. And that is because the catamaran community does not have an organized junior sailing program. And THAT, in my humble opinion, is because we are not involved with the yacht clubs.

There are lots of kids sailing, but we, and our boats, need to be where they are.


Yep, and that. Here in Oz, all the 'learn to sail' programs are likewise run by clubs with monohulls.

Re: Where do new cat sailors come from? [Re: Berny] #77122
07/09/06 08:09 PM
07/09/06 08:09 PM

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A



Mary:

That is why I got Ashleigh started at 7 on my cat. She now has 5 years of sailing with me. Two years of trap experience. Last Wed one of the cams would not unlock so I could not get one of the rudders down. Instead of racing we just played around and on the sail back to the dock I gave her the stick. I told her push and pull, it was bout a 1 1/2 mile sail till the first tack and after halfway she said "Paw Paw I don't have to look at the wind vane anymore, I can feel it. She will be a natural. That is why I get the Mystere 4.3. Now I have two 6 year old twins (boy/girl) to train on sunfish first before moving to cats. I really enjoy passing this on to the grand kids. We MUST do all we can to keep the sport going. To any other things for kids to do now.

Doug

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