I'm planning to buy a formula 18 in the spring. I was looking at 17s but I've been assured that crew is easy to find and 18s are easy to right, especially with a righting bar installed. So now I'm looking at 18s.

The Hobie is considerably more expensive. Any particular reason? I've heard the parts and service are not as good with Nacra. I know the more skilled person will go faster but I'm still interested in technology for technology's sake. Is the Nacra a more advanced, faster boat?

Thanks in advance.

Mark

If you search through the forums using the search tool, you'll find several different threads concerning this.

As for parts, I've generally put Nacra higher than hobie in quality, but service is up in the air. I'd go through a dealer like sailmax.biz for any nacra-specific parts.

Mark,

I'm a 2004 Nacra F18 owner and have sailed Hobie Tigers and have only seen the Infusion. I can tell you that from a competitive standpoint, the Tiger probably has a little more development ready to purchase in the sails -but that the hull design hasn't seen a major change in quite some time (I understand that the daggerboard placement changed recently). Part of the reason you see such a large price desparigy is that the Tiger is imported from France while the Nacra is made in California. Another part might be (and I'm really guessing here) is that Nacra might be trying to undo some damage caused by broken promises when Infusions weren't available when they were supposed to be. I really expect the Infusion price to go up before long.

The Tiger platform has a lot of history with it and it has continued to prove that it is up to the challenge in F18 sailing and has continued to be a very competitive platform. Personally, there are a couple of minor quirky things that I don't like with the Tiger - the trampoline attachment method (too spongy) and the feel of the helm. However, I wouldn't hesitate to race one again given the opportunity.

The Infusion does have some of the newer buzz items - the low mounted jib, gybing daggerboards, and comes with better more complete rigging. I much prefer the side laced trampoline and the feel of the helm on the Nacra. The Infusion is a new boat so there are probably some teething problems from manufacturing - but Nacra does stand up and make those right pretty quickly.

I really think you should try to get a test sail on some and see for yourself...but I don't think you will find any significant competitive differences between any of the four platforms in the US (Capricorn, Tiger, Infusion, '04-'05 Nacra F18)

Are the daggers gybing on the Infusion?

The production prototype I saw did have gybing dagger boards.

Mark:

There is more than technology to consider. I think that you should consider where you are racing and what is raced there. I see that you are in Northern CA. If you intend to be available for as many regattas as you can find, then you really are limited on the type of boat you can choose. There is a big active Hobie Division up there that will not let you sail in their regattas with other than a Hobie. They have numerous races and are well organized. Check out venues that you want to sail before buying a boat that you may have to come to Southern CA to sail.

I just got back from the Worlds in France and I can assure you that there is no magic to any of the Formula 18s. I think that each of the three mentioned hear had at least a couple in the top ten. I think that another boat that we do not see here, a Mattia, had one in the top ten.

This is a very nice "box rule" boat. I do not think you can go far wrong with any of them. I own a Tiger, sailed an Infusion in France, and have a very good friend that just sold his Nacra F18 that I sailed a lot. They all feel a little different, but they are all about the same performance-wise.

As for price. I think that the Hobies and the Nacras are about the same, within $500, and the Capricorn will run about $2000, or so, more. At this point I would stick with the Hobie or the Nacra, both will have good support. For your location I would look closely at the Hobie. If you were anywhere else except the Northeast, maybe Texas and the middle states, you could pick anything. Great Lakes is probably more Nacras, the Southeast is pretty split, Southwest (here) is mostly but not entirely Hobie. We race more Formula 18 regattas, so manufacture does not matter, as they are run out of Yacht Clubs which favor Formula racing.

Later,
Dan

The tiger is $15,500 right?

what quote did you get for the nacra? did they give you a timetable for delivery?

Whow Jake, I did not know that there were gybing daggers on the Infusion. Is this the first production cat with gybing daggers?

We shared course with two infusions at the nationals in Sweden. They were the top boats to beat among the F-18s. Top crew was a former Tornado circuit sailor and sailmaker friend. Kicked our *** upwind in low wind conditions and pointed very well. I think the infusions had an advantage over the Tigers downwind in steep waves, looked like they could drive their boats harder.
Top Infusion team there compared the Capricorn (he had a Capricorn as well) with the Infusion, and liked the increased rocker and volume distribution of the Infusion better than the Capricorns.

I think we will see a new "Tiger" from Hobie soon. Even if they are just as fast, 'everybody' will percieve the Infusion, Capricorn and Blades as faster and more modern.

The Capricorn also has gybing daggerboards.

Just to echo what Dan said -

If you want any F18 competition at all in Northern California, you ought to get a Tiger. I do about eight races a year in the area, and I've never seen a non-Hobie F18 at any of them. While I rarely get to race against the local Tigers, my understanding is that the competition is pretty good. But what's going to happen to the Hobie Tiger as a one-design after it gets updated?

For personal reasons, I'd prefer that you get the Infusion and sail on handicap with MHRA (www.catamaranracing.org). We've got a regatta at Rio Vista (Sandy Beach State Park) this weekend, in case you want to come by and say hello.

Rolf and Rhino -

I would be amazed if Hobie France made any changes to the Tiger just yet. This year is the first that the Tiger has been beaten - I think it needs to be demonstrated that there is a problem with the boat before any changes are made. Tigers are fast with a big, experienced fleet. Maybe not all of the owners would have a problem with major production changes, but the one-design camp in the US would freak out. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Rhino, The Hobie races in California exclude any non-hobies from participating...that's why you don't see any other F18s racing.

John, with regard to the Tiger changes, I heard that the daggerboard placement in the hull recently changed. This may be a factless rumour but I heard it from a source I would consider reliable. Does anyone know if there's any truth behind that?

John,

I think Hobie soon will have to change the platform or introduce a new platform.
Hobie is in the business to sell new boats (and equipment, spares etc.), and if the sales drop they must either drop their share in the F-18 market or come up with something sailors want. I dont know, but I think Hobie have noticed the increased competition from NACRA, AHPC and Mattia on their sale figures. The boat might be just fine, but if sailors like other boats better they will not buy new tigers. In addition, the newer models need only show one clear advantage, like being able to be driven harder downwind in waves, and they will have the upper hand.


Shall we wager a bottle of wine that a new Hobie F-18 platform is is underways during the next season here in the western hemisphere? (Offer is valid just for John, I dont think I can afford buying for the rest of you) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[color:"green"]The races in Southern California are mostly run by Yacht Clubs and include all Formula 18s. Northern CA still has a great group of Hobie sailors willing to run regattas. That is why there are Hobie only regattas there.[/color]

[color:"blue"]I think the reference to the daggerboard changes already happened. Before the Tigers ever got to the US there was a slight change in the placement of the daggerboards. I have not heard, and I was just in France, that there is any plan to change them again. There are some changes that have occured on the Tiger that do not really change the way the boat performs, trampoline, front crossbar and roller furling jib. Some of the performance enhancers are recut main and spinnaker sails, opening up some of the Formula 18 rules to the class. They, Hobie Europe, are trying to figure out how to keep the Tiger competitive within the rules of Formula 18. One of the changes they are looking at is updatding the rudders to something that may more resemble the Tornados. There was a Tiger on the beach that had Marstrom rudders on it...looked fast. Oh and the construction of the newer Tigers is a bit stiffer boat without the added weight that was a problem a couple of years back. All the new ones wieghed in about 1 kilo light.[/color]

Later,
Dan

I'll take that wager, Rolf. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I agree that the advent of wing masts, and changes in foil and sail shape appear to be happening much quicker in non-Hobie platforms, but until these other manufacturers can find teams that will stick with the boat long enough to get the experience needed to overtake the Hobie rider teams, the progress is moot. We may have seen the tipping point at this year's worlds - or maybe not.

My prediction - Tiger remains unchanged throughout the next Worlds in AUS except for minor sail cut mods and the fully-battened jib. If a Capricorn wins (good bet due to the sailors likely to attend), then I think there may be some more serious talk in France about a new mast for the Tiger, maybe... but nothing makes it to the fleet until late 2007 or early 2008. In the mean time, Tiger teams will continue to dominate the standings, espesh here in the US. One or two non-Hobie boats will start showing up in the US top three, again due to the sailors that have either gotten into the class recently, or Hobie sailors that have switched to another boat and are skilled enough to take advantage of the advances.

I truly think that the advances are valid and have value - I put my dollars where I thought they were best spent. But I also firmly believe in the several-years head start that Tiger sailors have in time on the boat. Nobody in the US has more time on an F18 or a Tiger than Greg and Jacques from Hobie USA, and nobody in the US is coming close to giving them a challenge on a bouys course. Will new boats and new additions to the class make a difference? We'll see in a few weeks. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The fully-battened jib is legal effective 1-Mar-2007, right AFTER the 2007 Worlds in Australia.

Nice John, makes things a bit more interesting. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Shall we say that we evaluate by 1.sept 2007 and see wether the Tiger platform has either been replaced by a new Hobie F-18 model, or has undergone substantial changes to the platform (or is imminent to do so)?
I suggest Jake as jugde (and hope he can put it into his calendar so we dont forget about it). He seems fairly balanced..

Hi Les -

Good point, but I think you'll be able to buy them before that date. The STX main was for sale and showing up at fleet races before they were class-legal. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Rolf, those are very fair terms. Though I am not sure I can agree that Jake is balanced, I do think he would be a good arbiter. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Cool thing is, either way, I'm happy - my way, and the HCANA doesn't have an anurism, your way and F18 continues to be a forward-thinking, consumer-driven class with affordable and sound used boats available for the beginner.

I would highly doubt that Hobie is coming out with a new f18 design.. Rather they would probably do a change to the rig..new mast, sails etc if anything.

Have to agree with you there.

As a Tiger owner, I think Hobie have the development program about right. The sails are being continually updated however with the exception of the spreaders, the rig & platform are virtually the same as day 1. Thus even older boats don't suffer from a performance point of view.

Tiger Mike