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Launching Options - Chute #8417
07/02/02 09:13 PM
07/02/02 09:13 PM

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I know Kirt has had some experience with a skunk. I'd like to know what he thinks. Any other experiences that any of you have would be great. The three Mikes (all with 4.9s) from St. Petersburg area are talking about ordering our spinnakers at the same time from the same loft (Smyth or Goodall), but I haven't decide on which way to launch.



I'll be mainly sailing solo. I have used a Snufffer while sailing an I17 and it works great, but lots of windage and weight where I don't want it. The skunk seems to be a good compromise. Only drawback is two lines to launch vs. one on the Snuffer.



Also, if you like your Goodall chute let me know.



Thank you.



Mike (Taipan #213)

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Re: Launching Options - Chute #8418
07/03/02 02:03 AM
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Mike # 213 (joke) I seem to remember that Kirt ran his Skunk snuffer as a single halyard system too.



Also, I would like to suggest that to add Peter Vinks Performance Sails to the list of spi makers. About USD 550,- for the sail is the quote I remember from him. As the other in tehir continent Vink is regarded to be a very good spi maker overhere to the extend that other well know sailmakers regard his spis as just a tad better than their own. A rare compliment. This guy is located near to me and I could therefor handle your order as your representative when need be.



Personally I think that the snuffer is indeed the best compromise between practicality, windage and the Taipan jib setup. But if this is not the way you want to go them maybe the trampoline launched snuffer may work for you. This one will have to be fitted diagonally to the Taipan tramp as it will be too short otherwise (this may be a drawback). I know a sailmaker that has made these before (tornado) and has done it is is doing it now for other Taipans. He might be the one to contact if that is your prefered option.



As far as I know Goodall makes the trampoline spi bag system and in all honestly the jib setup is in the way although the system works regardless.



For the skunk make sure that the patches are not to stiff (ask Kirt) . Otherwise it won't go into the snuffer.



Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Launching Options - Chute #8419
07/03/02 10:14 AM
07/03/02 10:14 AM

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Hi Mike,



Here’s my $0.02 based on the few opportunities we’ve had to use our spin – along with a few questions for anyone who’s willing to comment.



We have the Goodall 17m^2 chute – they made the sail with the reinforcements for use with snuffer type system (no further modification required). We’re quite happy with the sail so far. I can’t help with comparisons to the other sailmakers – it’s is the only chute we own. My philosophy in choosing the Goodall sail was that they are more likely to know what shape works best for the boat. I assume this because Goodall was directly involved in the development of the boat and is tied to its manufacture. It’s certainly possible that someone can do better, but probably not on his first few iterations.



A comment on previous (long ago) posts on block location: we’ve found that when the breeze picks up a little, attaching the block to the tramp loops, as was initially discussed doesn’t work so well – the leech starts to flutter & can’t be stopped by sheeting in harder. Moving the blocks to the shroud (a little farther forward) helps out –anyone else had the same experience?



We use an EO snuffer mounted to the end of a sawed off CF windsurfing mast. Launch and retrieval are easy relative to stuffing the chute into a tramp mounted bag (have done this on other beach cats), especially if you try a takedown while sailing a hot angle. Our biggest complaints are that it’s definitely not attractive (looks pretty phallic), and the windage certainly won’t help performance. It would be nice to quantify just how much it does hurt. I’m a little slow to understand the ‘so much weight where you don’t want it’ argument against the pole end snuffer? Can someone please explain in a little detail? My thoughts are: if you’re going downwind, you’re flying the chute. The only weight differences between the snuffer setup and the bag launched spin are 1) wt of snuffer (very light) at end of pole minus wt of the short section of pole it replaces, and 2) a lightweight mesh bag hanging from the pole as opposed to sitting on the tramp. If you’re going upwind, how does the spin wt farther forward (hanging from pole instead of on the tramp) make a significant difference? Getting your weight far enough back when going upwind is never a problem. In fact, in light air, I’m happy to have weight farther forward. I guess it could make the boat hobby-horse a little more readily, but that doesn’t seem to be big problem on the T4.9 (at least to someone who started sailing on a H16). The only time I see the spin weight farther forward being a real issue is on a screaming jib reach -when you can barely keep the bows out of the water. What am I overlooking?



There were a couple skunk on T4.9 setups (at SF). At a glance it looked like the spin bag was hanging pretty low – low enough to slow you down if you sail in chop/waves, possibly making up for any reduction in windage relative to the pole end snuffer. Not sure if it has to be this way or if it was an issue that can be overcome. I would like to hear from some of the T4.9 ‘skunkers’ now that they’ve (hopefully) had a little time to get used to the setup. Are you guys happy with the setup?



Kenn Newbury

T4.9 USA226

Salem, VA


Re: Launching Options - Chute #8420
07/03/02 06:30 PM
07/03/02 06:30 PM

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You make some excelent points. I didn't think about the bag dragging. It may be an issue because there is so little room between our bridle wires and the main beam.



The weight is not much of an issue. I try and make sure that any modification I make to my boat (bike, car, etc.) is optimal because after a few modifications it adds up. Just as you said - hobby horsing is one issue. My Nacra Uni had great weight distribution and when I hit chop or waves it was one or two rocking motions and then back to powering forward. It has a carbon fiber mast and carbon rudders. Watching a friends older Nacra 5.2 hit chop and he would rock 7-10 times, losing much speed (some of this was due to less bouyancy and length in the 5.2s hulls).



I do have to say that the Snuffer I used was a breeze. I have a bit of a left hand and arm "handicap" and need as few lines to pull as possible. I must many times trade-off optimal solutions for practical ones (e.g. tramp launched bags with little weight and windage vs. Snuffer).



Looking to converse more.



Say Wouter - isn't it ironic that "King Anon" wants sail numbers so we can prove we are out here, but he won't give his name!!!!!!!!!!!??????



Another question - where do I buy a skunk and how much will I pay?



Mike 213

Re: Launching Options - Chute #8421
07/03/02 06:48 PM
07/03/02 06:48 PM

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Read the comments from another post below:



Hi everyone and thanks for the welcome



I should warn you up front that my project has a long time frame for a number of reasons so I will be reading your ideas more than writing in the beginning. Before looking too seriously at the kite I'm getting my boat back together (yes Rob the paint job is still on the cards before the next season) and making a couple of refinements before moving on the kite. One reason for the decision to go slow is that I'm not really happy with any options I've seen yet with respect what launching system to use. At the moment I'm leaning heavily toward the Inter type snuffer as ease of handling is definitely my first priority. Also , being a heavier sailor, I enjoy a pretty strong upwind advantage over most in conditions over 10 - 12 knots which is where I suspect the windage disadvantage would hurt the most. This system is obviously simple and probably a good starting point.



Windage is definitely a concern although not the way you might think. One of my close friends holds the world sailing speed record and the work his syndicate has done suggests that it is the extra wires and loose (unclean) shape of the suffer bag that will have the most detrimental effect. On this basis I want to develop an aerodynamic combined snuffer /pole/chute with minimum wires. The Kayak type system shown on the Tornado post earlier in this forum is along the lines I'm thinking although still too many bracing wires. The trick is to build a monocoque structure that is light and stiff - still working on that one!!

As far as the length of pole, kite size etc my aim is to develop something that fits within both the F16 and Taipan rules. This may mean a slightly smaller kite or shorter pole but since the relative gain for a cat rig will be significant I don't think this will be a big issue.

Anyway - look forward to reading your thoughts and seeing what you are all doing. I will aim to post my ideas as they come to light.



Cheers





James

AUS 153 'Woof'




Re: Launching Options - Chute #8422
07/03/02 07:55 PM
07/03/02 07:55 PM
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This is a post from David Swingle (who apparently is "locked out" right now!-- Join the club!)-



Some more thoughts on the T4.9 spi from Texas… I agree with Kenn about the spi sheet attaching to the tramp loops causing the spin leech to flutter. Also the tension on the blocks can be quite tremendous in a blow and perhaps a bit much for the tramp. Conventional wisdom suggests the sheet point needs to move forward, tightening the leech and loosening the foot. I’m going to try this shroud attach this weekend, however I’m a bit concerned about the sheet pulling outboard from this point. The shroud attach was not designed to handle loads from this direction, however it might be a non issue… Are people just attaching the supplied (non-ratchet, non-cleat) blocks to the wire loop above the adjustable shroud tensioner? I believe Kirt has the old style chainplate/pin adjustment, which makes attaching to the shrouds a little easier. Also has anybody found a suitable cleating ratchet to use with the spin sheet? I know cleating the spin sheet is asking for trouble, but solo, it would be nice to have the option. Besides we like living on the edge!!

As far as spin launching, I’ve been very successful solo tramp launching out of the Goodall supplied bag. Slowly I will work into heavier winds doing this, but so far, piece of cake in less than 10 kts. Wouter had a good writeup a while back. Key points were get close to downwind, don’t gybe, get chute out of bag, hoist quick. Takedown is opposite, except throw the halyard in the water over rear crossbar to untangle/untwist and provide slight tension as you get the monster on the deck. The real point here is there should be no problem tramp launching this thing with crew.

Have been working on a homegrown righting pole and hope to test it this weekend. We have sized it based on some “back of the napkin” structural analysis and it should add 3 lb. It uses a 2” OD .065 wall 6061-T6 aluminum tube mounted to the front crossbar with an old windsurfing swivel base. The system will allow adjustment of the pole up and down from the capsize position and provide double the righting moment of a solo guy on a traditional righting line. The 3 pounds will be well worth it because I’ll be far more aggressive if I know I can right the boat with no wind assistance. That way I can leave the spin cleated far longer than I should!



Happy Fourth David Swingle



Kirt Simmons Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48
And here is the picture he send with that mail [Re: Kirt] #8423
07/04/02 06:18 PM
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Wouter

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Wouter Hijink
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Re: Launching Options - Chute #8424
07/04/02 06:27 PM
07/04/02 06:27 PM
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>>Say Wouter - isn't it ironic that "King Anon" wants sail numbers so we can prove we are out here, but he won't give his name!!!!!!!!!!!??????





He is just being a pain in the ... but as always I think a reply is necessary otherwise people will start believing these rumours and that is bad for our class. Lets forget about him.





>>Another question - where do I buy a skunk and how much will I pay?



Guck inc. makes them and they cost a bundle.



or is just the carbon pole that expensive (get alu anyway).



goes maybe "Outboard pole end, delrin: $50" = the mouth piece for that price I will order it myself tonight.



Go to http://www.guckinc.com/skunk.htm for more info



Notice that the indoors photographs are taken with a Taipan 4.9 jib !!



>>It may be an issue because there is so little room between our bridle wires and the main beam.



Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Launching Options - Chute [Re: Kirt] #8425
07/05/02 11:12 AM
07/05/02 11:12 AM

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Hi David,



I briefly considered the loads on the attachment point for the shrouds before deciding to attach the spin blocks there . . . I’m guessing it’s a non-issue (suppose only the boat builder can tell us for sure). A component of the spin block load is definitely in a different direction than the load that would be applied by the shroud, but the spin block load isn’t all that great - my wife can trim the chute by hand (with no mechanical advantage). The load from the shroud regularly gets up in the range of the weight of two people plus half the boat (think of flying a hull while sitting in) – the attachment point has to be pretty heavily reinforced.



For attaching the blocks, I replaced the 1/4” bolt w/ locking nut that attaches the stay adjuster to the chainplate with a 1/4” bow shackle (with loc-tite on the threads). The spin block is attached to the bow shackle. I eventually plan to make a bracket for attaching cam cleats to each of the stay adjusters, so I can cleat the spin sheet temporarily. I’m thinking this would be more reliable for un-cleating compared to a block mounted cleat.



Have a good sail this weekend.



Kenn Newbury


Re: Old shroud adjuster, skunk #8426
07/05/02 07:01 PM
07/05/02 07:01 PM
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All- I have the "old" style shroud adjusters on my T- they are like the front forestay adjuster- tubes w/ holes, w/ cleats attached to SS plates welded to the sides. I use the "stock AHPC" little SS plates that have 2 holes- one for the bolt at the bottom of the shroud adjuster and the other to attach the blocks to (has the line running through in the photo). Hopefully I can attach a picture of this. Much of the "side" load on the block from the spi is countered by the opposite "side" load from the sheet. The comment about the loads not being all that high is accurate- in Ocean Springs I was hand-holding the clew of the big (21 sq m) spi (it wasn't blowing all that hard but still..).

As for the skunk- I really like it versus the pole end snuffer in terms of windage and weight, but it's more expensive, more complicated to rig (with bag extending over or under tramp) and takes up most of the sailbox. Unfortunately, due to the size and stiffness of my original snuffer patches, neither the pole end snuffer nor the skunk have reliably "snuffed" either of my spis (although the skunk is easier to crawl forward and stuff the spi into if necessary!!)- Both are obviously able to snuff properly "patched" spis as witnessed by the Tornados (for the skunk) and Inters-



Kirt


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Kirt Simmons Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48
Re: Old shroud adjuster, skunk [Re: Kirt] #8427
07/05/02 07:53 PM
07/05/02 07:53 PM

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I have the newer adjusters with the same cam cleat arrangement as yours.



As far as the launching systen I'm edging towards the Skunk, but may just bag launch for now. I'll be mostly recreational sailing cat-rigged so speed on launching is not an issue. If I get to bouy racing I'll be in need of a system.



Mike T#213

Re: Launching Options - Chute #8428
07/09/02 08:13 PM
07/09/02 08:13 PM
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Another sail loft to add for Taipan spinnakers and other sails is Landenberger, http://www.landenberger-sailing.com/ Glenn Ashby also works there so a lot of Taipan experience. My current mainsail and jib are also from here and very happy with the speed.



Just bought a spinnaker for my taipan and have tried it out once in about 6-8 knots. Sets really well and did not have any fluttering at all in leech as mentioned in other posts. Ratchet point at same point as jib blocks. Will be sailing it again this weekend so hopefully get a bigger breeze.



Still working out how to store the spinnaker besides on the deck. Snuffer just in front of bridle should work well as the spinnaker measures 2 metres in length when using points to draw it in.



Cheers

jc

Re: Launching Options - Chute [Re: taipanfc] #8429
07/10/02 03:53 AM
07/10/02 03:53 AM
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Ofcourse, if one orders a new spi one can notify the sailmaker of which position you want to sheet it from and he will make it such that it won't flutter.



My sailmaker requested that I measure three sides of the triangle making up the spi and he would custum make the spi to that.



-1- length block on pole to hound on mast.

-2- length hound on mast to sheet block on block (Either tramp/stay. mainbeam/ rearbeam or whatever.

-3- length sheet block to block on tip of pole.



So question becomes where do YOU want to sheet it from ?



C.Q. Landenberger is indeed a good sailmaker we forgot to include.



Personally I would also like to add :



RedHead sails (Australia) I've heard many good things about him and his Taipan sails.and I found him to be very willing to discuss sails and optimize them on requests given.



I have the contact info when anyone is interested.

Maybe I should make a webpage of it.



Wouter


Wouter Hijink
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The Netherlands
Re: Launching Options - Chute [Re: Wouter] #8430
07/10/02 07:47 PM
07/10/02 07:47 PM
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This is for David Swingle again- He's still "locked out"!!-



Wouter, I saw your last post on the "spi launching options" thread.

I tried sheeting the spin off the shroud loop and really was uncomfortable

with the way pulled the shroud adjuster way outboard and attempted to bend

the pin, leech still fluttering. So the next iteration, I tied some rope

loops around the front crossbar just inboard of the hulls and I liked this

much better, but still leech flutter. I may go ahead and screw or rivet

eyelets to the xbar further outboard. In my opinion, this is the best

structural attachment. Wouter's last post makes sense about having a sail

built, but for those of us that already have sails is it possible to get the

design dimension from pole end to sheet location from Goodall? This might

help in placement of the sheet location. Otherwise, I had a real blast this

weekend with that thing. I ran thru tons of sets and stuffs in pretty light

air. Practice, practice, practice! I don't think them county boys out at

Lake Tawakoni knew what to make of a cat with a shute!



DCS


Kirt Simmons Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48
Re: Launching Options - Chute [Re: Kirt] #8431
07/11/02 07:38 AM
07/11/02 07:38 AM
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David,



I must admit that I've tried this "clip it to the shroud" option on my prindles and they have some robust shroud chainplates. I had no problems with them. The Taipan chainplates may well be less robust.



I wil be faced with the same problem in a few months. So I've started thinking about it. One option is to fit an eyestrap directly onto the hull just in front of the chainplate. You can use a small rod or something to reinforce the inside with just bolt or screw the eyestrap to the rod on the inside of the hull. Your footbands are fitted to the hull in much the same way although they only use washers on the inside.



An alternative would be use a three block sheeting setup See drawing attached to the post ! click on attachement on teh left hand side. Red is the 3 block setup and gray lines are the old current setup.



This setup adds another micro block to the trampoline or alu profile in the gunwhale that hold the trampoline.



This micros block should be directly in line with the shround and the clew of the spinaker. Now it is this block that is taking up all the load and the microblock at the shroud is only there the deflect the sheet by a few degrees. Result is that the block at the shroud now only experiences a much much smaller force than before and mainly in the upward direct in which the chainplate was designed to take load.



Personally I'm thinking the place my ratched blocks to the trampoline in this manner and have only micronblocks with springs fitted to both my shroud and mainbeam. This setup allows me to make a almost full 180 degree turnaround my ratched block (=holding power) and in the wildthing procedure the ratched block is right under the crew on the leeward hull so he can switch the ratched on and off easily.



Maybe this is a better setup on the Taipans which the given chainplates. Also when still using an eyestrap, this eyestrap can easily be fitted to the hull in the properplace for your spi coz in this setup the eyestrap is only experiencing minimal loads and reinforcements will not be that important anymore I think.



>>about having a sail built, but for those of us that already have sails is it possible to get the design dimension from pole end to sheet location from Goodall?



That would be very smart. Bear in mind that length of pole plays a big role here. So you might also improve the spi by adjusting the pole length (but not past the F16 rules ofcourse)



>>Practice, practice, practice!



Are you beginning to feel comfortable with setting and doucing yet ?



Wouter


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Last edited by Wouter; 07/11/02 07:40 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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