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#87367 - 10/30/06 11:09 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: _flatlander_]  
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Wouter Offline
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I say don't worry. Those rotomoulded thingies won't be anything other then rentals and kids boats. I have yet to see one actually sail in an event. I did see two of them at a place where there is also a sailing school for small kids. Never mind I was there with about 60 glass cats doing a race series.

Those tupperware boats will never graps the imagination of our thrill seeking youngster of today. The material just isn't right. It goes "wobble" and "pfumpf" when you press on it or hit it. Really gusy today youngster want flashy products and thus tupperware boats just aren't it.

How many mono tupperware boats do you see around ? Heck overhere we need to compete with splashes and 29-ers. Those boats LOOK the part. I'm still expecting to see 80 % of those tupperware boats ending up in some backyard gethering moss after the kids sailed it for one or two times. Again, I have yet to see one actually enter an event or participate in a class event of their own.

I'm really amazed these boat are truly selling so well as I never see them anywhere. So where are they going ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
-- Have You Seen This? --
#87368 - 10/30/06 11:51 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: Wouter]  
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Quote


I say don't worry. Those rotomoulded thingies won't be anything other then rentals and kids boats. I have yet to see one actually sail in an event. I did see two of them at a place where there is also a sailing school for small kids. Never mind I was there with about 60 glass cats doing a race series.

Those tupperware boats will never graps the imagination of our thrill seeking youngster of today. The material just isn't right. It goes "wobble" and "pfumpf" when you press on it or hit it. Really gusy today youngster want flashy products and thus tupperware boats just aren't it.

How many mono tupperware boats do you see around ? Heck overhere we need to compete with splashes and 29-ers. Those boats LOOK the part. I'm still expecting to see 80 % of those tupperware boats ending up in some backyard gethering moss after the kids sailed it for one or two times. Again, I have yet to see one actually enter an event or participate in a class event of their own.

I'm really amazed these boat are truly selling so well as I never see them anywhere. So where are they going ?

Wouter
Rick??


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
#87369 - 10/30/06 11:54 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: Wouter]  
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Quote


I say don't worry. Those rotomoulded thingies won't be anything other then rentals and kids boats. I have yet to see one actually sail in an event. I did see two of them at a place where there is also a sailing school for small kids. Never mind I was there with about 60 glass cats doing a race series.

Those tupperware boats will never graps the imagination of our thrill seeking youngster of today. The material just isn't right. It goes "wobble" and "pfumpf" when you press on it or hit it. Really gusy today youngster want flashy products and thus tupperware boats just aren't it.

How many mono tupperware boats do you see around ? Heck overhere we need to compete with splashes and 29-ers. Those boats LOOK the part. I'm still expecting to see 80 % of those tupperware boats ending up in some backyard gethering moss after the kids sailed it for one or two times. Again, I have yet to see one actually enter an event or participate in a class event of their own.

I'm really amazed these boat are truly selling so well as I never see them anywhere. So where are they going ?

Wouter


Since getting back into sailing as of Spring 2005, I've seen three or four Getaways (may have been same boat twice, I didn't pay that much attention, and actually one started and raced with H16's at Mid-America's), four different Waves and two Bravos. (South Dakota, Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma)

Conversely, in that same time I've seen four Tigers (at Mid-America's, the Gulf Coast crew), one FX One and a home-build (200#) A Class. We saw 50 glass boats at the 18/20 Nationals. Average TOTAL boat count at a Hobie regatta is 21.

The dealers are saying the rotoboats "Are selling like hotcakes!" Granted, they're not racing here either. So what will grab the attention of a thrill seeking, Mid West, young person? I don't see an answer coming from Hobie, which is predominant here as far as multihull racing goes. Guess they'll sail a HP dinghy, wind surf or kite board.


John H16, H14
#87370 - 10/30/06 11:57 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: Wouter]  
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Jake Offline
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Quote
How many mono tupperware boats do you see around ?


Actually, Hunter is building a whole line of monohull daysailors from rotomolded plastics (http://www.huntermarine.com/Models/DaysailersIndex.html).

However, I agree that it appears that Hobie is not focusing so much on the fiberglass racer market but can you blame them? The rotomolded boats they are making are going to resorts and hotels - businesses that are buying 10, 20, or more boats with one check and these places are obviously pretty pleased with the product. Hobie is going where their higher profit is. It's not great for our racing, but we shouldn't be concerned because there are other manufacturers, or new manufacturers, who will continue to support our market as long as we keep buying boats....which brings up a point, if we had continued to purchase 17s and 18s in a large volume, it's a safe bet that Hobie would still be making them. The fact that we're not buying these boats anymore is evidence that the market shifted from strict Hobie one-designs for boats that are focused on recent technology or at the very least, shiny new designs. I think a couple of lost attempts at development and a strong market with the rotomolded boats has them shifting their focus away from the racers (with the exception of the successful Tiger). In my opinion, looking at the Tiger, they need to be cautious - although I think it is still a great performing platform, it sure is surrounded by a lot of new and interesting development and their market will certainly continue soften unless something new happens.

The market is no longer what Hobie was built on - not as many people are buying a Hobie to have a Hobie. We're afflicted by shiny-itus more than ever before and there are a significant number of brands to choose from now.


Jake Kohl
#87371 - 10/30/06 12:09 PM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: Jake]  
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I'll bet the H16 is very profitable! How many "bugs" can be left in the production process?

#87372 - 10/30/06 02:15 PM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: Wouter]  
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bvining Offline
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Wouter,
The Dart 16 is actually a good boat for what it was designed for. I sailed mine in a very shoally inlet, with lots of bars with breaking waves over sand bars and I loved it.

Yes, I moved up to bigger, faster and lighter boats, but I cant sail my HT or my Acat in this shoally, spot with out worrying about breaking the boards off.

Sometimes no boards it a good thing.

I kind of wish I'd never sold the Dart, yeah it was too heavy and sat too low in the water, and wasnt as fast as my other boats, but I never had to fix anything on it and I could take all my non-sailing friends for rides and all they had to do was hang out on the trap. And I could take it out in the surf, and sail over sand bars, and sail it right up on the beach when breaking wavers were big.

Long live the Dart 16.

Bill

#87373 - 10/30/06 02:58 PM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: Wouter]  
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Quote

I have yet to see one actually enter an event or participate in a class event of their own.


Check out the post on the F16 forum that you participated in and you'll see that the were as many Dart 16 racing as F16's at Eastbourne.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showflat...rt=all&vc=1

In the UK the "tupperware" Darts are popular boats that are raced hard.

Giving them a derogatory name won't change that fact. I spoke to a buyer from a holiday company who said they would never buy a GRP boat again as they are too fragile and their customers love the Darts.

Gareth

#87374 - 10/30/06 04:07 PM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: Wouter]  
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I agree with Bill and Gareth. I have sold over 30 Dart 16s in Ireland. We have 10 at my Club and another club has 16. Most of them are raced - maybe not as fanatically as the Spitfires and Formula 18s. We had 9 at our Nationals.
One guy, who is on his 2nd Dart 16, now wants the new version. He could have a Spitfire, but he likes a cat that he can knock around a bit <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> .
If I bring a cat on holidays, it is always the Dart 16, not the Spitfire. I feel safer in the open sea (where there are no rescue facilities) in a cat where I can easily reef the main and roll the jib, if the wind gets up.


Dermot
Catapult 265
www.catamaran.ie
#87375 - 10/30/06 05:24 PM Re: Nacra A3? [Re: bvining]  
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Quote


Bob,

I'd call moving the beam and centerboards aft 6 inches more than a subtle change.

Bill


Bill,

When I saw the change, I thought it had the potential to result in a significant difference. The reality was it did not seem to make a big difference (good or bad) in the conditions we had but it could make the boat easier and more forgiving in big breeze and big waves.

BTW, where the hell were you???? You built that new baby and did not bring her to the big party! George Saunder's boat is beautiful, he is a real craftsman and innovator.

Bob

#87376 - 10/30/06 06:56 PM Re: Nacra A3? [Re: Acat230]  
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bvining Offline
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I heard George's boat was nice. I couldnt get away from work, I would have loved to be with you guys in Bristol.

I only got to sail 2 tuesday night races all year.

I'm going to try to make it to Florida this winter for the really big party.

Bill

#87377 - 10/30/06 09:10 PM Re: Nacra A3? [Re: bvining]  
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Going back to the plastic fantastics am I the only racer who wants a Hobie Getaway? I would love have one for weekend beach adventures. I would install some wings, and Hobie 16 spinaker kit, dual traps and I think it would be bad butt beach killer!

#87378 - 10/31/06 05:15 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: bvining]  
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Wouter Offline
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Bill,

You had a rotomolded polyethyleen Dart 16 in the usa ?


[Linked Image]


Who imported them ? I'm asking because I only know of Dart 18's going to the USA.

Quote

Sometimes no boards it a good thing.


Actually not heaving boards is the least important of its lesser points.


For the guys wondering what we are talking about here are the specs :

http://www.lasersailing.com/disp/uk/dart-16/vital-statistics

Price new (basic sloop no spi) : 7550 Euro (new nacra 500 is 10.500 for example)

Texel rating (doublehanded with jib) = 129 (Hobie 14 = 134, hobie 16 = 117, F18/F16 = 101)

Texel measurements :

Length 4,8 mtr.
overall weight 150 kg
mainsail area 11,62 sq. mtr.
mainsail luff 6,99
(aspect ration main = 4.2 = same as modern boats like F18, F16, Tornado)
jib area 2,57 sq. mtr.
jib luff 4,15 mtr.
Skegs

Wouter

Attached Files
88668-racing.jpg (20 downloads)
Last edited by Wouter; 10/31/06 05:23 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#87379 - 10/31/06 05:48 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: grob]  
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Like I said "I never saw one in a race" I sail in Holland not UK = homebase of the Laser fleet.

Just last september I saw my first Spitfire race here in Holland. Granted I could have seen it if had participated last year in the round Tiengemeente as well.

I looked up the Laser 16 UK nationals; 11 boats. This while the very tradional 16ft glass beachcat Spitfire (of same designer) attracted 28 boats at their UK nationals. Note how the Spitfire as a design is about as old as the Laser 16.

So what do we have here ? Dealers claiming that these boats are selling like hot cakes since 1999 ? And how many do we see on the water ? We see fleets of 6 and 11 in the UK, its homebase, after selling them like nobodies business for 7 straight years.

Sorry guys I'm really not impressed. These can well be very good boats for sailing schools, hotels Holliday companies and what not. Actually I'm convinced they are. But I really don't see them becoming a threat to the normal beach catamaran scene. And if they ever try to become just that then we'll see allot of changes to the boat making them significantly more expensive and we'll see them become more and more like the original beach cat they tried to replace.

Quote

you'll see that the were as many Dart 16 racing as F16's at Eastbourne


Yes, but the F16 guys never claimed that the F16's were selling like hot cakes. To be really honest. The F16's aren't a kids boat to be dragged up the rocks nor a cheap boat like the Laser 16. We are only selling the F16's since 2002 (excluding the Taipan of which none are sailing in UK). Since that time we have replaced all older Stealths by the Stealth F16's in the UK and are now matching the laser 16 fleet at Eastbourne. I for one will never claim anything other then modest sales for the F16's, but we are doing so all over the world. Something I really don't see the laser 16 or any other rotomoulded cat do. If these rotomolded cats can't beat us = "expensive uncompromising no-big-builder glass F16's", not even on their home turf UK, then what the hell are they doing with all those boats sold ?


Just to be absolutely clear. I'm not dissing the boat, I'm sure it is all the Holliday camps want, I'm just totally unconvinced it will threaten the regular glass based beach cat scene as another poster mentioned. The signs so far are not suggesting the contrary.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/31/06 06:04 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#87380 - 10/31/06 05:57 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: Wouter]  
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Wouter,

Yup - same boat - loved it. No boom, one string to pull, main reefed, jib furled, could set it up in 20 mins. Unbreakable. All good.

Loved it until I raced it for the first time with the RI N6.0 fleet and they were gone in an instant. If there had been a fleet of Dart 16's I would have kept it.

There was one other in RI, owned by Vanguard and that one didnt get raced, so no competition to race against.

A few Dart 16's got imported to the USA by Vanguard. Vanguard marketed them as the "Lazer Cat" for a very brief time and then dropped the idea. Steve told me he couldnt get the margin on them he needed after importing them.

Bill

#87381 - 10/31/06 06:02 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: bvining]  
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Wouter Offline
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Thanks Bill,

Learned something new. I really didn't know this boat had ever made it too the US.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#87382 - 10/31/06 06:04 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: Wouter]  
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bvining Offline
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Wouter,
Why are you so defensive?

Quote
I really don't see them becoming a threat to the normal beach catamaran scene


Its a starter boat. If it gets people into racing cats as opposed to sailng dighy's then its a good thing.

Racers will want more speed and move up to bigger and faster boats. The Dart is a great at what it is, but its not a racer.

Unless the fleet is one design, then perhaps.........

Bill

#87383 - 10/31/06 06:20 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: Wouter]  
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Quote
I'm just totally unconvinced it will threaten the regular glass based beach cat scene as another poster mentioned


Why on earth would anyone think that another beachcat would threaten the "regular beachcat" scene. Surely it could only complement and help the catamaran scene, regardless of the material the hulls are constructed from, or its performance.



Gareth

#87384 - 10/31/06 06:53 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: grob]  

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Quote
Quote
I'm just totally unconvinced it will threaten the regular glass based beach cat scene as another poster mentioned


Why on earth would anyone think that another beachcat would threaten the "regular beachcat" scene. Surely it could only complement and help the catamaran scene, regardless of the material the hulls are constructed from, or its performance.



Gareth


Some feel that Hobie (the largest catamaran maker) spending less research money on developing higher performance catamarans may hurt the sport in the long run. They are basically saying, Racers, we have done good enough for a few years. We will check back with you later, if you are still there. We will let small companies focus on development and we will just copy it in 10 years.

#87385 - 10/31/06 08:06 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: bvining]  
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Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

Wouter,
Why are you so defensive?



Good point. There is no reason to be that way I admit.


Quote

Its a starter boat. If it gets people into racing cats as opposed to sailng dighy's then its a good thing.



Also true.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/31/06 08:07 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#87386 - 10/31/06 08:13 AM Re: What about the Hobie A-cat, anybody ever .... [Re: ]  
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_flatlander_ Offline
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Quote
Quote
Quote
I'm just totally unconvinced it will threaten the regular glass based beach cat scene as another poster mentioned


Why on earth would anyone think that another beachcat would threaten the "regular beachcat" scene. Surely it could only complement and help the catamaran scene, regardless of the material the hulls are constructed from, or its performance.



Gareth


Some feel that Hobie (the largest catamaran maker) spending less research money on developing higher performance catamarans may hurt the sport in the long run. They are basically saying, Racers, we have done good enough for a few years. We will check back with you later, if you are still there. We will let small companies focus on development and we will just copy it in 10 years.


Thanks Matt, well stated. As I mentioned before us "geographically challenged" cat sailors in the US are pretty much tied to Hobie. If you don't live within 6 hours of the Pacific, Atlantic, Gulf or Great Lakes you're, outside of micro areas, for the most part stuck with Hobie. The availibility of used and new boats and the availibilty of racing is for the largest majority is Hobie, period. The vast majority of used boats (H14, H16, TheMightyHobie18) are pre-1990. Find a boat other than Hobie and you'll have to find a yacht club willing to score you and who will you race against (no OPEN fleet starts at Hobie regattas).

I don't think the millenial generation (1982 to present demographic and 76 million strong), extreme sport, American youth is fawning over a Bravo or Wave or Getaway. Of course they could could buy a spanking new Hobie 16.

Ten years is a long damn time. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


John H16, H14
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