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Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / Formula #96683
01/19/07 11:07 AM
01/19/07 11:07 AM
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Wouter Offline OP
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Please give your opinion on F12 as an Single Manufacturer One Design (SMOD), One-design (OD) or as a Formula setup.


There is no need to hide what my initial opinion about this topic was. That is well known.

But I still feel a need to discuss this issue in more detail with the interested people. I may well change my opinion.

So please give me (us) your opinion about what you think the F12 should be :


-1- A SMOD (Single Manufacturer One Design) with possibly license building by other companies. Like the Laser


-2- A OD (One Design). The design is fixed but with some freedom in certain area's like sails and rudders. Like the Tornado.

-3- A Formula setup like the F18's, the F16's and A's.



Please explain your opinion by discussing the following points :


-1- What is best for the youths and teenagers. (we forget about the adults in this)

-2- What is best to keep costs low

-3- What is best to achieve sufficiently fast and deep market penetration

-4- What is best to achieve sufficiently fairness in racing

-5- What is best to achieve a fast and well behaved boat that can engage the competition (laser, 29-ers, twixxy etc) and come out on top.

-6- What is best to see the F12 suit the largest group of people who have an interest in the F12

-7- What is best to get this F12 of the ground and not have it fade away once the going gets tough (and it will get tough at one point)

-8- Any other reason you feel is important to consider


Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / Formula [Re: Wouter] #96684
01/19/07 12:24 PM
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Perhaps some insight could be found in the history of the evolution of the International 14 monohull dinghy class. History can be found at www.international14.org.

Here is the introduction to the text of the history, as told by the official historian, who is in England (the second and third paragraphs might be particularly pertinent):
Quote
THE HISTORY OF THE INTERNATIONAL FOURTEEN

To tell the story of the International Fourteen is to recall the early history of small boat racing in this country, for the International Fourteen was originally the National Fourteen and it was but an amalgam of this country's principal 14ft dinghy classes of the early part of the century. Today there is a wide choice of International and National dinghy classes and examples of each can be found in most sailing centres.


Seventy years ago the situation was very different, as parochial forces jealously guarded their local class — specially devised to meet local conditions. Argument raged over the merits of various designs and the case for one design or restricted classes. From all the discussion the Fourteens were to gain one of their greatest assets, a liberal set of rules that allowed progressive development and encouraged experiment.


The philosophy that led to the formation of the first National dinghy class holds good today, but on an International plane. For the International Fourteen is one of the few classes that allows nations to design and build craft to their own ideas, and yet still compete on equal terms with dinghies of other nations; the modem Fourteen, as will be seen, draws its inspiration from many parts of the world.

Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / Formula [Re: Mary] #96685
01/19/07 09:21 PM
01/19/07 09:21 PM
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Quote
From all the discussion the Fourteens were to gain one of their greatest assets, a liberal set of rules that allowed progressive development and encouraged experiment.

So that is basically what I think should be the case for the Formula 12 catamaran class (if it becomes a class). Experiment should be encouraged both downward and upward in terms of speed and technology, so that a wide range of youth ages and weights can be accommodated, as well as budgets and building abilities, and to include the existing boats of that size and less.

If someone wants to create a one-design class within the Formula 12 specs, to appeal to the more advanced youth sailors, as well as possibly adults, that would be great, too.

However, I do NOT think it is in the spirit of a Formula 12 class to start out with a boat that is 12'10" long.

And SMOD is not even an option, as far as I am concerned, unless Vanguard is going to build it and promote it and dispense it in containerloads around the world. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Mary] #96686
01/20/07 09:34 PM
01/20/07 09:34 PM

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Quote

However, I do NOT think it is in the spirit of a Formula 12 class to start out with a boat that is 12'10" long.


Mary,

I would like further explanation on why you feel this way.

Wouter has pretty much said here are the choices based on the underlying mathematics are:

1. a 12 foot boat with a less then desirable sail area, making it a low performance boat, like the ones already available to purchase.
2. a 12 foot boat with the propensity to pitch pole
3. a 12’10” that with neither of the two problems.

If he is not making a mistake, I don’t see any wiggle room.

I race a C&C 37R. Guess how long it is. Yep, 40 feet. =)

I agree with the rest of what you said.

Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: ] #96687
01/21/07 02:27 AM
01/21/07 02:27 AM
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Quote
Wouter has pretty much said here are the choices based on the underlying mathematics are:

1. a 12 foot boat with a less then desirable sail area, making it a low performance boat, like the ones already available to purchase.
2. a 12 foot boat with the propensity to pitch pole
3. a 12’10” that with neither of the two problems.


But those choices are slanted to bring you to the conclusion desired by their author, and they are based upon the premise that what is wanted for the Formula 12 class is a fast, high-performance boat. And also to fit the boat that he had already started designing.

And all the math proves is that Wouter believes the kind of boat he envisions building cannot be done as a 12-footer.

So, in other words, if he can't build his dream boat to fit within a Formula 12 class, he is going to stretch the class to fit a 12'10" boat.

Also, 10 additional inches makes a MUCH greater difference in a small boat like that than it would if you are talking about, say, a Solaris 42 if it is actually 42'10".

If Wouter builds a boat almost 13 feet long and calls it an F12 and expects it to be representative of a Formula 12 class, a Formula 12 class will never come into existence.

If he proceeds with that particular design, he should call it something other than F12 and then make that particular boat a one-design.

Meanwhile, it would be nice if somebody would come up with some box rules for a Formula 12 class and limit it to 12 feet. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Mary] #96688
01/21/07 08:52 AM
01/21/07 08:52 AM
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I'm a nefarious little bugger aren't I ?

Indeed, my personal preference for the longer hulls comes from the desire to finish up with a good performing boat.

I see no point or economical viability for a new class that doesn't convincingly beat the current crop of small cats out there as well as the fastest dinghies (both are pretty much 13 foot and longer as well)

With the choice of being lightweigt for reasons of performance and ease of handling c.q. TRULY car toppable the bouyance of the F12 is such that it is disadvantaged in the dive resistance when compared to its heavier competition. By making its hulls shorter then the competition as well we enter into a situation where it becomes very hard to outperform the competition (if not downright impossible) because the mast height and sail area are limited to significantly smaller proportions.

The last thing I want to happen is HURT catsailing as a whole by proving to the dinghy sailors out there that small cats simply can not perform. They will errornously inteprete that as being applicable to the whole catamaran scene even if some of them know better. As we all know they are trying desperately to convince themselfs that mono's aren't fundamentally slower then cats or tris.

I fully admit to wanting an F12 that is a "a fast, high-performance boat"

But "... to fit the boat that he had already started designing". Is not true. We (Phill and I) started out with the 12 long hull, I discovered its drawbacks and proposed to solve them by going a little longer.


Quote

But those choices are slanted to bring you to the conclusion desired by their author, and they are based upon the premise that what is wanted for the Formula 12 class is .


Are your comments "slanted" because you are both an a wave owner and an active wave class volunteer ?

Isn't "slanted" a bit harsh word to use here, makes it sound like I have some evil plan for world domination ?


Quote

And all the math proves is that Wouter believes the kind of boat he envisions building cannot be done as a 12-footer.


Correct, but the right question here of course is whether the boat I envision is different from what is envisioned by others. Please all raise your hands who in favour of a F12 that is not fast or capable of beating Laser 1's, Hobie Wave's or Dragoons on the water ?


Quote

So, in other words, if he can't build his dream boat to fit within a Formula 12 class, he is going to stretch the class to fit a 12'10" boat.



Well, I think you guys deserve to hear the truth about this here indeed. If the F12 ruleset finally decided upon doesn't interest me then I may well continue with the design as I envision it and set up a different organisation around it. This design could then indeed be a one-design setup.

I'm really not interested in making a design that ONLY 7-12 year old kids can sail singlehandedly. I don't believe this age group is dependable enough for parents to justify spending a couple of thousant US$ or Euro on. Also these kids grow out of the age (weight) group too quickly and because they are then still too young and small for Hobie 14, Hobie 16's and God forbid F16's they will be forced to go back to dinghies like the laser-1 and 29-er anyway meaning that we'll have lost them again to the dark side. F14 isn't here yet and I don't really think it is going to be. So in effect there is no follow-up to the F12 unless the F12 stretches itself to make the link up with H16's or F16's. Also I think alot of these kids want to sail with a friend instead of solo, putting these crews in the 12-19 years weight range.


Quote

Also, 10 additional inches makes a MUCH greater difference in a small boat like that than it would if you are talking about, say, a Solaris 42 if it is actually 42'10".


That was a point I made in my own initial posting as well. And this point works both ways. 10 inches less can also make a huge difference in a negative sense.


Quote

If Wouter builds a boat almost 13 feet long and calls it an F12 and expects it to be representative of a Formula 12 class, a Formula 12 class will never come into existence.



And my plans for world domination will then have SUCCEEDED ! YEAAAH !


Quote

If he proceeds with that particular design, he should call it something other than F12 and then make that particular boat a one-design.



Because you hold copyright to the name F12 ?


Quote

Meanwhile, it would be nice if somebody would come up with some box rules for a Formula 12 class and limit it to 12 feet



As long as that somebody isn't Wouter, right ?



Well I'm going to use my old trick again.

If somebody wants to replacement me as the donkey who is pulling this F12 car then by all means do so !

I will step down immediately and hand over the bit to the new person.

Nothing has changed in this respect to 2 weeks ago when I made the exact same offer.

I take note that even the very vocal persons of last time like Pat or Jake didn't respond in anyway to that offer.


Now I really want to have a F12 design that works on all fronts and that will be succesful. I'm not in any way looking forward to the huge amount of work that it will require to get it too succeed like that. Remember I already know what it is like as I've done it one time already with another class. So I'm really not doing this because it is so darn alot of fun to do, I think it is necessary and the right thing to do. So if somebody else wants to do the right thing then I'm happy to throw the burden on his or her shoulders.

But please don not think that this F12 project is rigged to do what I want. I don't have some hidden agenda. I may well change my mind if convincing counter arguments are made. At least you all should give me that much credit.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Wouter] #96689
01/21/07 11:12 AM
01/21/07 11:12 AM
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Wouter, why do you bother to ask for people's opinions if you are going to go into a defensive filibuster everytime somebody gives an opinion you don't like?

That is a rhetorical question, by the way. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Wouter] #96690
01/21/07 12:29 PM
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My opinion is
Quote
-3- A Formula setup like the F18's, the F16's and A's.


Quote
-1- What is best for the youths and teenagers. (we forget about the adults in this)
Being a formula allows hull and sail shape to evolve with time and the ability to remain fresh. Certainly limited in OD.
Quote
-2- What is best to keep costs low
Simplicity, the ability to build sail/hull/tramp yourself.
Quote
-3- What is best to achieve sufficiently fast and deep market penetration
Dovetails with -2- (from the home-build perspective), the ability to use parts from the shed/kit/garage. Easy to use plans. No major tool expenditure. An active build group to answer questions. An association to offer F12 specific parts? A complete kit?
Quote
-7- What is best to get this F12 of the ground and not have it fade away once the going gets tough (and it will get tough at one point)
At least one working prototype, something to visually wrap hands around, to launch it off. Testing of windsurf rigs to create alternative, or a broader base of possible sails to keep it going. Continued feed back from prototype boats.


John H16, H14
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: _flatlander_] #96691
01/21/07 02:28 PM
01/21/07 02:28 PM
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John,
I agree with almost everything you are saying.
The problem is that you seem to be talking about a Formula 12 class, and Wouter is talking about the boat he has designed or is designing that is 12'10" long. I just can't see any connection between the two.

It all goes back to what the goal and purpose is for a Formula 12 class. But that discussion was kind of cut off.

I think there is definitely room for a Formula 12 class for the younger kids. I don't see it for the older, more experienced kids, because they are usually ready for all the 15- and 16-footers already being used extensively for youth training, especially in Europe.

But Wouter's boat, as he has said, is not for the younger sailors. So if he does his thing with this fast, longer boat, it still does not address the problem of having a Formula 12 Class for young sailors.

Right now a catamaran for the younger sailors, ages 8-13, is really the only missing link, as far as introduction to catamarans.

Speed and performance are certanly not factors -- except for the boat having good handling characteristics for tacking, jibing, and tracking well but with some weather helm.

I am excited about Phill's design, because it sounds like something that even I could build for my grandchildren. And I need it very soon. For some reason, the kids just keep getting older every year!

(My apologies for Wouter for again expressing my opinion.)

Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Mary] #96692
01/21/07 05:04 PM
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At least Mary has an opinion. I am a notorious fence sitter and bend easily before the prairie breezes. My grandson is only 4 months old, so I can stay on my fence for a few more years. I wish I could help out, but always seem to find myself agreeing with the last argument made.

Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Mary] #96693
01/21/07 05:05 PM
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Mary,

We're going way back here, but it seems like there was a consensus (or maybe just my perception) that most people would shy away from spending $3K in a boat for a 7 to 13 year old to knock around on.

Also consider the age of 11, 12 or 13 as an age when they may formulate ideas of what they really want to do, or enjoy doing. (I think my pointing out the millenial generation is now between the ages of 7 and 25 may have thrown some people on a target age) I feel optimizing for a 12 to 18 range is legitimate. As you say a H14/H16 may be sailed at this age but what about the logistics and complexity. And in this scenario you're probably talking about a family of cat sailors who may be more apt to throw a 60kg boat on top of the adult cat (as opposed to a Bravo or Wave).

The potential there is for a new sailors as well, up through young adults of driving age. What's to prevent granddaughter from hauling her boat off to college?

Quote
Speed and performance are certanly not factors -- except for the boat having good handling characteristics for tacking, jibing, and tracking well but with some weather helm.
I'm learning more as I hang around, but I was certainly convinced that a hull that looked fast and was light (esp. lighter than the roto- boats) must inherently BE fast. If it's not significantly faster than a Wave what purpose does it fill? Other than being easier to move around and rig?


John H16, H14
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: _flatlander_] #96694
01/21/07 06:24 PM
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Quote
We're going way back here, but it seems like there was a consensus (or maybe just my perception) that most people would shy away from spending $3K in a boat for a 7 to 13 year old to knock around on.
But isn't that $3,000 for a boat based upon the kind of boat Wouter is proposing? NOT for a much simpler boat that kids CAN knock about on?
Quote
If it's not significantly faster than a Wave what purpose does it fill? Other than being easier to move around and rig?
So here we go again, round and round, about the purpose of a Formula 12 class.

I said I think there is room for a Formula 12 class, but that is for the people who want their kids to start on catamarans.

I PERSONALLY don't think there is a need for it, because, as I have said many times before, I think all kids should be started out in monohull dinghies. (Unfortunately, that does not seem to be a popular viewpoint among catamaran sailors.)

Wouter's boat is already almost 13 feet long. If it is as fast as he thinks it will be, why not make it part of the Formula 14 class, which already seems to exist.

Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Mary] #96695
01/21/07 09:56 PM
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-1- What is best for the youths and teenagers? (We forget about the adults in this)

Something with enough performance to draw them from other small sailboat classes, and from other sports that are competing for their time and money.

-2- What is best to keep costs

Keep it open formula where sailor can build their boat with what is available, both financial and materials wise.

-3- What is best to achieve sufficiently fast and deep market penetration

Creative marketing, doesn’t matter how good the boat is if you can’t convince the target market that it wants an F 12, it needs an F 12, it has to have an F 12 .

-4- What is best to achieve sufficiently fairness in racing

Do the racing thing, but also have a program for those that would love to go out on the water and have fun without competing as an option. Not every kid wants to race…if it’s either a race or nothing scenario, some kids will just say forget it and go back to their playstation. Is this about getting kids into sailing? Or just racing? Or both?

-5- What is best to achieve a fast and well behaved boat that can engage the competition (laser, 29-ers, twixxy etc) and come out on top.

Go to the 12’-10” length as proposed, no sense in creating a class that offers a level of performance lower than what’s all ready out there. We want to build a better mouse trap…not one an inferior one… If these same kids that are being targeted don’t want to sail a Hobie Wave because of it’s perceived lack of performance, what chance does a boat of less performance have?

-6- What is best to see the F12 suit the largest group of people who have an interest in the F12

Again go to the 12’-10” length so it is a boat that can handle a greater spread of crew weight. Make it so a small child, a teenager, or small adult can use by starting out with a performance hull that can be tuned up or down with the size and style of the rig so as to accommodate all three groups. Any parent knows that children get all fired up about something, the parents go out and buy all the necessary equipment and then the child looses interest…If it could be also used by an adult, a parent might say to themselves, well if junior looses interest after we pour all this money and time into building this boat at least the wife or I can sail it ourself. The wider the weight capabilities, the larger the market…the more that are made, the more used ones become available on the market for other kids to get involved...Also... have you looked at the size of some of the middle/High school kids these days? They are not all the model of fitness…don't make it so the "big for their age" and "over weight" kids are effectively out of luck.

-7- What is best to get this F12 of the ground and not have it fade away once the going gets tough (and it will get tough at one point)

Keep the rules open as to fuel development within the class so it keeps fresh and the there is always a next level to aspire to… don’t make a class where the boat is so small that it is outgrown in a couple years…the 420 is sailed all the way to college age if I am not mistaken. I am sick of the tired argument "that open rules killed the C class and 18 square"


-8- Any other reason you feel is important to consider

What is the magic about a 12’-0” hull length? The FJ –s 13’-3”, the 420 is 13’-9”, The Laser is 13’-10”, and the Sunfish is 13’-9”. These are all boats youth sail…

At 12’-10”... better performance…can be home built for less money.. handle the weight of an adult…it would be in direct competition with ...

Regards,
Bob

Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Seeker] #96696
01/22/07 03:25 AM
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Perhaps the Formula 12 class could have two divisions -- a division for 12-foot, entry-level, small-kid boats; and a high-performance division that allows boats up to 12'10".
Like, Formula 12 and Formula 12X. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That would solve all these problems about who wants what from the Formula 12 class.

Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Mary] #96697
01/22/07 07:04 AM
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Mary,

Can you please elaborate why you think a 12'0" hull is more suited to a young kid then a 12'10" hull when both are fitted with the same rig and are practically identical in overall weight ?

Why do you think a young kid can't sail the 12'10" properly if it can sail the 12'0" ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Wouter] #96698
01/22/07 07:12 AM
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What's to elaborate? Some people want a low-performance, fun boat for their kids to introduce them to catamarans. Other people want a high-performance boat that will beat the socks off all the "competition."

Formula 12 and Formula 12X seems like the answer. It's sort of like trying to figure out what kind of pogo stick to get when you have various ages and weights of kids involved. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Mary] #96699
01/22/07 07:34 AM
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How about :

a low-performance, fun boat for their kids to introduce them to catamarans => Hobie Catsy

http://www.hobie-cat.net/site_gb/?produits,hobie_catsy

And it is low-performance : Texel rating of 165 where the F18's have 101 and the Hobie 16 have 117. That is when rigged with a jib and the larger mainsail of the two. The Hobie wave (only mainsail is 145

[Linked Image]




high-performance boat that will beat the socks off all the "competition => Formula 12



Would a seperation of youth between these two boats satisfy you ?

Wouter

Attached Files
97463-catsy2.jpg (629 downloads)
Last edited by Wouter; 01/22/07 07:40 AM.

Wouter Hijink
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The Netherlands
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Wouter] #96700
01/22/07 07:46 AM
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Im with Mary on this, I have said it before but I think there is too much emphasis on performance, I don't think racing is something that kids want to do.

The main advantage of a cat for children is stability not performance.

I would rather go for Darryls F14 than Wouters F12/F13. I am interstested to see Phils concept.

The Catsy is nice but cannot really be homebuilt plus its an F11 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Gareth

Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Mary] #96701
01/22/07 08:03 AM
01/22/07 08:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

But isn't that $3,000 for a boat based upon the kind of boat Wouter is proposing? NOT for a much simpler boat that kids CAN knock about on?



No Mary, it isn't.

You're guessing your way through the argument here.

As such your comments are increasingly removed from what is at hand and as such serves no purpose.

Much earlier in the discussion it was already established that a set of dotan rudders would cost 712 Euro's and mainsail would cost 615 Euro's and the ply for the hulls would 15 Euro's per square meter making the two hulls (5 sheets) cost 434 Euro's. This is 2171 US$.

Together these three cost items make up 65 % of the F12 already and then you still need beams, a mast , a trampoline, boom, blocks, sheet etc.

The basic design is already very simple in order to get down to 3000 Euro's. It is way better then the Wave and Bravo especially in sail tuning but simpler just the same. The F12 doesn't even use a Harken or Ronstan mainsheet block system.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For [Re: Wouter] #96702
01/22/07 08:10 AM
01/22/07 08:10 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
addict
Seeker  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seems like Hobie is already building four cats in the range we are talking about the Castsy @ 3.1 mtr., the Advance @ 3.6 mtr., the bravo @ 3.66 mtrs, the Teddy @ 3.91 mtr. Five if you count the Wave at just outside our range @ 3.98 mtr.

With all these boats offered you would think the void would be filled but obviously its not...I would venture to say these boats are aimed at resort rentals as much as individual boat owners.

Again, obviously none of these boats have the "magic" necessary to entice new kids in the numbers everyone seems to think are possible.

As adults we may look at these boats and think if we had one 25 years ago as a pre-teen we would have thought they were really cool...to youth of today they probably look like overgrown bath tub toys. Today’s youth have grown up with extreme sports as the norm...things that were unheard of 10-15 years ago. So it doesn't surprise me at all when they don't get all excited about a lack luster product that was designed to be idiot proof in a rental fleet scenario.

They are buying products like the "WE" and Apple "I pods" ...not boats that look like they were designed and built by kiddy toy Manufacturer Fisher-Price ...

Regards,
Bob

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