From Rick#1:



From Rick#2:



From Rick#3:



Rick, I am offended by your name calling. I went out of my way to be diplomatic in my post. My point was that the boats are not comparable. Your point was why we need this boat? Just buy a wave; it is high performance with a hooter. My point, they are two very different boats.

After my lazy post (not checking the price of your hooter), I went there and I grossly underestimated the cost of a wave hooter the package is $1,928.50 (plus shipping) which itself is 64% of the cost of the F12. You can’t compare a used wave (old sails, lines, tramp) to a new boat, that is where I got the numbers (from a dealer). I do have to add the beach wheels to the F12 estimate.

Wave with Hooter Cost
item cost
Boat 4,295
Hobie Delivery Fee 200
Trailer 550
Tax 403.6
Hooter System 1,928.50
Shipping estimate 75
Beach Wheels 419
Shipping estimate 75
Total 7,946

F12 Cost
item cost
Boat 3000
Beach Wheels 419
Shipping estimate 75
Total 3494

Difference 227%

I mean, read the sprit of your posts. In another boats’ forum? And you resort to name calling? After I used real quotes I have received?

Why?

Matt,
I don't see any name-calling in Rick's post. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Also, I don't think you can say it is not appropriate to discuss the Wave in the Formula 12 Class forum. The parameters of such a class are not yet established, and they may very well include the Wave -- along with a host of other existing boats.

Used Waves can be found for $1,800 to $2,500. If beach wheels don't come with it, that is a major additional expense.

A headsail like a spinnaker or a hooter would not be included as a comparable factor, since none of the other suggested youth boats have included that, either, in price estimates.

Plus, you don't have the investment of all those hours of boat-building (for those who even are capable of doing that or willing to do that).

A major advantage of the Wave is that it is a boat the whole family can use together, as well as being manageable by even the very young kids in suitable wind situations.

The classic Wave can be car-topped or carried in the back of a pickup because it is easily assembled and disassembled. A tiny woman can raise the mast herself. Two 50-pound children can right the boat themselves. The boat is durable enough to survive generations of kids running into docks. It normally doesn't do damage if it runs into an anchored boat.

No question that it is almost the perfect boat for children. Plus it can be upgraded with more sailpower as the kids get older.
I'm sure everybody knows all this.

HOWEVER, that is not what most people are talking about in terms of the "Formula 12." I believe we are talking about a boat that is home-buildable and is small enough and light enough to be easily car-topped intact or taken to the beach on top of the family's larger cat and can be carried from car to beach by the kids.

That is technically correct. The F12 (as I see it) won't have either a spi or hooter sail and as such we can included the cost price of it in the Wave purchase.

But interesting enough the F12, without a spi or hooter, could be just as fast as the most heavily upgraded Wave. So from an "equality in performance" perspective one could indeed argue that the cost price of the hooter setup should be included in the wave price.




I'm still leaving a large pathway open to commerical production of the F12. So I don't think it to be prudent to qualify the F12 as being a pure home-build.






Well yes, otherwise the conditions wouldn't be called SUITABLE, would it ?





I think Flatlander has a thing or two to say about this.

Additionally Mary, I recall you being sceptical about the shorter and much lighter F12'10" ability to be cartopped. How can that be when you think the Wave is cartoppable. This strikes me as illogical.





There is some private e-mailing going on behind the public discussion of these boats and this "running boats into the docks" thing has got the questionable honour of being the humoristic element in the communications.

Apparently this is a big thing in the USA as none of the NON-US based youth initiatives report any kind of this behaviour, not even accidentally.

May I say that this appears to be alot more like an advertising gimmick explaining the use of the otherwise inferiour rotomoulded polyethyleen then a real necessity ?

And I do stress that I did my background research on this particular aspect of the Wave design.





Yes, at least I do.

Still a few things surprise me here. You say it is the perfect boat for children, but you strongly against the F12 being comparable in length, sailarea and even performance. F12 at 3000 US$ is far too expensive but the Wave at (verified) 4295 US$ isn't ? You like the fact that the Wave allows larger kids and the whole family to sail it, but you are pretty much against the F12 having the same capabilities as that would make it unsuitable for the children.

I'm a little bit lost here. You can't adhere to both lines of thought simultaniously as they are in direct conflict with eachother.

So which one of the two is correct conviction that you hold ?


The next quote underscores my confusion.




Wouter

That is true in terms of the design you are proposing. Might not be the case with other F12 designs, though.



Wouldn't a factory-built version of your design cost more than the home-built version, though? Manufacturers usually seem to say that it costs them almost as much to build a small boat as a much larger boat.


I don't know how else to say it. I mean, of course, that small children new to sailing can handle it in light wind conditions, even though it seems like a very big boat for 8-year-olds.


I'm a woman -- I don't have to be logical <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I don't recall being skeptical about your design being cartoppable. It obviously will be. It is just a question of whether a woman can (or will) put it on and off the car roof by herself. I AM a little skeptical about that.
As far as the Wave goes, I don't really consider that a serious option, because it just ain't gonna happen unless two adults are involved. I was just pointing out that it CAN be done. The Kulkoskis are able to carry a whole fleet of Waves around on their trailer -- it's at least six that they can transport with the boats all disassembled. It's kind of a nice feature if you are going to transport a group of kids around to different regattas or put on clinics for kids in various locations.



I think it is pretty humorous, too. But when you have a whole group of kids on the water, varying stages of experience, and no adults on board, anything can (and does) happen.

Actually, I have personally witnessed several instances of experienced adults running their boats into docks and onto rocks, too. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Definitely not humorous.

If that Dart is any indication, rotomolded boats do not have to be slow and look clunky. (I think it is rotomolded, isn't it?)

Anyway, rotomolding is certainly not a necessity. It's just a factor that people consider when getting a boat for their kids or for sailing schools (whether for kids or adults).



What I mean is that with the Wave, for instance, myself and my daughter and all four children can go out on the boat at the same time. That probably would not be the case with your design. I'm not sure about yours, but I am visualizing maybe two-three children at a time or one child, or one child and one adult, or adult sailing alone. In other words, the whole family can use it, but not necessarily all at the same time.



Of course, I can adhere to both lines of thought (I'm a woman, remember <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), and I don't see any conflict at all.

I have already made clear that what I would like is a SMALL boat, probably less than 12 feet long, suitable for a young child to single-hand, with relatively low speed but good tacking ability.

Here is kind of what I envision. I already have a Wave, so I see that as kind of the "mothership." I could take the whole family out on the Wave and tow the little boat behind the Wave. And then, once we are away from the dreaded docks and rocks and anchored boats, let the children take turns sailing the little boat by themselves, one or two at a time, while we coach and cheer from the mothership.

Once the children are able to get to point A and back to their point of departure and know how to tack and jibe, then my daughter and the children would be on their own to take the boat to the beach and play on it.

THAT is my interest in this whole discussion. I don't think I have ever deviated from that goal. And that is why I am waiting for Phill's design. And also why I am looking for an old Catyak (9'4" long) if that turns out to be the only option.

The Wave would also NOT be suitable for 8-year olds in my opinion it's a resort/rental boat... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


I don't know how else to say it. I mean, of course, that small children new to sailing can handle it in light wind conditions, even though it seems like a very big boat for 8-year-olds.

[quote

It is rather the other way around. My quote of the 3000 USD is geared toward (new) professional production rather then the price that can be had while homebuilding. This 3000 quote includes rudders bought directly from another supplier as well as the sail and fittings. All components being new.

Say, a homebuilder would do EVERYTHING himselfs then the cost price would be significantly lower, especially if you are using second hand rudders of a H14 or something.





I understand. However this, in turn, goes directly against your earlier argument that an F12'10" would look far too big in comparison to an 8 foot pram. Your wave looks bigger still (because of large volume hulls) but now you use that that is not really a problem for the kids.




Well, that is true.

A while ago I took the following words to heart and that has served me quite well.

"It is a womans perogative to change here mind about any given subject at any given time."

But shifting design criteria make for a hell of a difficult design project, I can tell you that.




I had put this down as a design goal. Currently the assembled platform is 40 kg's or less. This would be the two hulls and beam with the trampoline fitted. Rudders and the rig will be taken off of course. I'm trying to get lighter still. Putting this thing on top of the car will require a person lifting about halve of that. My roof rack design will have a tube with two rollers on each end. Cutting a long story short, these rollers will support halve the platform weight when the boat is put on top. In effect the person doing the lifting only has to lift the other halve. 20 kg is a weight that I've seen women lift of the ground without too much trouble. As such I counting on this being sufficiently light to allow a single women to put the F12 on top.

As a direct comparison, the wave platform is over 80 kg heavier, forcing the parent to lift at least double the amount of the F12 when using the same method. I think this qualifies as a big difference.

I think heaving the boat cartoppable is a critical issue of the F12 design. It certainly is a major cost savings component.





Understood. I looked at rotomoulded but it seems to make the boat very heavy indeed. It will add about 25 kg to the platform making it increasingly hard to put on the roof of your car.

Twinex adds about the same amount of weight to it.

Neither of these methods seem attractive to get at the easy to handle and lightweight F12. I have got another option for professional building this thing, but I would like to keep this to myself at this time. This looks like it can produce the whole boat at 65 kg (or less) and still have a very good abuse resistance. Main advantage is that it does lend itself for easy mass production. Something the ply contruction method isn't really, although I got an idea to make that alot more viable as well.





The F12 will carry up to 500 kg of crew weight BEFORE sinking but it won't be fun sailing that way. So even a single hull will carry 185 kg (= 1 parent at 80 kg + 3 kids at 35 kg) and not even have the water standing at the decks, but I do not image this happens often at all.

From the time I was involved in youth and family sailing (and I have) I learned that parents (families) do think they are going to use the boat all at the same time but after 1 or 2 times in the beginning they almost never do it again. Often one of the parents and some of the kids loose interest and don't come out anymore. I found sailing to only attract a portion of the people in one family. Often a single parent and a single kid. In my personal case I'm the only one in my larger family who stuck with it.

As such I feel it to be unwise to design the F12 to handle a situation that is very rare, if not non-existant. For the very few families who do this stuff regulary I think the Wave is a setup that we are not going to challenge with the F12. Lets allow the wave to handle that site of the market. There is no need to aim for the exact same target group as that will only impact negatively on both designs.

My version of the F12 will carry a single sailor or two smaller kids very well and will handle a parent with kid reasonably well. It will carry two adults and larger crews but not in a way that can be called apparent wind sailing or performant.




Of course a woman you have that right but there is certainly a conflict here. Because if we use your input to formulate design goals then we end up with conflicting design goals. Now, it will be downright impossible to succesfully design a F12 on a set of conflicting design goals. Practically speaking your "female right" pretty much forces the designers to either accept not designing a real life F12 or to ignore your input.

I would like to not have to do either. So is it possible that you self limit your usage of this "right" in order to advance the F12 design ?







What you are requesting is in fact a custom design to suit your particular situation. I think this is at odds with the larger framework of the F12 project as it stands now. Afterall, the others don't have (wave) motherships and are not planning to have these either. A good portion is looking to have a better craft then the Wave for the intended purposes.

But we've gotten it now really clear what your desires are. While I don't think this to be a good basis to develop the F12 upon I also think it is a piece of cake of designing a custom boat for you Mary. Probably using many concepts from the larger F12, but just scaled down to your preferred size.

I think using the lugger rig for your custom boat to be even more attactive as you can hoist and lower the sail very easily while on the water. And such a sail is alot easier to homebuild as it uses no battens or sleeve. You can stitch up this sail by hand even in a afternoon. Hell, the kids could do it if they are reasonably attentive to their handy work. But despite this the lugger rig is still rather well performant. It is surprisingly good and it will allow a boomless rig at the same time.

More info at :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugger

Maybe we should just seperate the design for your situation from the F12 project. That does seem like a far better option.

Wouter

The Wave certainly is suitable for small kids. Just ask Barb Short who runs the sailing center at Founders Park in Islamorada, FL. They use 10 Waves for kids that are very young. And the kids have a ball with them.
I believe it is either once or twice a week the entire Montesorri kids come a sailing at their center, and most of that age.

As for name calling, I am lost. Where and how did I do that. I remembered someone overquoting the prices of a Wave and felt whoever that was was "pooh-poohing" the Wave and how extremely expensive it was. I was just refutting that post is all. No name calling that I am aware of.
Perhaps the term pooh-pooh was taken in a different light. It means squelching or disdaining, not fecal material. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Rick

I am not requesting anything at all. Apparently, it is useless to use imagery with you. I have tried in various ways to make you understand that there are two camps regarding the Formula 12 concept.

One camp likes the idea of the larger, faster, racier, sexier boat that you are designing and that will appeal to teenagers and can also be happily sailed by adults. I would love one of those myself.

The other camp wants a boat for the younger children, ages 7 or 8 to 12, a boat that is smaller, slower, cheaper and super easy to build. A boat that is more cute than sexy, designed more for fun than for speed.

From the very beginning of all the discussion about Formula 12 I have aligned myself with the latter camp. I have just been trying to help that camp.

But I don't know why you think that would affect what you are doing with your design.

If somebody does not design something for the little kids, I will just get a Snark. No problem.

In fact, that is what you have now convinced me that I need to do. I can get a Snark Sunflower 3.3 and it weighs 55 pounds. And they have them even smaller than that.

So I am officially out of this whole discussion, and you can breathe a sigh of relief. Thank you for helping me to make the decision. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to shut down this whole forum just by saying the word "Snark." <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I thought I was doing a GOOD thing by leaving, so you guys could get on with your project without divergent viewpoints. Looks like the road is wide open now. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Well I'm out and now Mary is out. I guess there is nobody left to turn off the lights ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And I'm seeing you are getting the hang of using the smiles, Mary !


Wouter

I'd still be very interested in building a cat for kids over twelve years. Maybe something simple, fast and light weight. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

How about we please put away the egos for now.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

With me you get what you get, but my work on the F12 continues and always did. (both length versions !)

Currently I'm waiting out where this forum is going to.

Wouter

And I am hoping that two different threads will evolve -- one for a cat for kids under 12 years old and one for kids over 12 years old (with 12 being right on the cusp). <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For sure the F12 is not something I want my seven/eight year old flying around on. The F12 would be way too fast for her. For now we are using optimists with small rubber bumpers made from car weather stripping to help ease the impacts. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thank you, Buccaneer. Finally, some backup. And now Wouter and his friends can laugh at the children in Thailand as well as in the United States for running into things. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Just get the Hobie Catsy and be done with it.


Wouter

For kiddy bumper boats I suppose we should do an eight footer and keep it under $1000 USD complete. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

But now can we please get back to the F12 discussion? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

With regards to FRP would it not be easier and perhaps less expensive to build a mold out of cheap plywood instead of the building the boat itself with expensive plywood? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

From memory - the Catyak 9' 3" long 53" beam, 45 sq ft lateen rigged sail. Max payload 325 lb. Shocking orange rotomolded polyethylene hull, cast aluminum fittings, aluminum tubing for trampoline supports. Skeg keel (small) so it side slips like the dickens. It only weighed 95 lbs.

I was 14 or 15 ('74-'75) I was given the choice of a sailboat or braces and I picked this boat. I got sail number 666 (I never put it on, but I thought of many creative names to go with it). It cost about $400. The YMCA was using them for sailing lessons because it was so stable.

I loved it, I could go out in stinking fast winds and pass keelboats and dinghy's. I sailed it hard (Lake Carlyle in Illinois, 10 mi X 3 mi North-South) for about a year, then we moved away from good sailing lakes, except for one summer in 1980.

I later moved to Oklahoma City and brought it out of retirement and sailed on Lake Hefner (Oklahoma City has 16 mph average wind speed). I cartopped it all the time on my '82 Plymouth Champ (8 fwd speeds, 2 reverse). I could stop my car and be sailing in less than 15 minutes. I pulled it off the cheapo roof rack, un-wrapped the sail, sheet, and halyard from around the gaff, boom, and mast, stepped the mast, slid the pins in the pintel and gudgeon, hoisted the sail and launched. I went out in force 5+ often. I once did laps around a regatta of J24's on a hard blowing day, and got to see someone blowing their peas of the lee rail. I was riding a bronco and having a blast.

I'm back sailing dinghies, V15, but I love cats. My 13 year old son has gotten to sail dreamboats from my memories, Laser, E-Scow, and his first cat, a Hobie Wave. I googled for catyak just for a drive down memory lane and came across this link. Thanks.