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Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... again #97817
01/30/07 04:38 PM
01/30/07 04:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Interview with Bundy and Gasby on the OCR win!

Bundy spoke
Quote
being physically exhausted from sailing miles to the race course


Before everyone looks at the US Sailing website and listens to the propaganda as to what a great event the OCR is they should understand Bundy's comments.

Gary Bodie, our HIGHLY PAID Olympic Coach has NOT made the Tornado class event remotely world class.

The launch site is 13 miles from the race area! This launch was put together by one of the sailing teams years ago because the Miami Yacht club alternative set up by Bodie was even worse. US Sailing once again is unable to solve
this critical problem. Every other class gets to race within a short sail to their race course. The Tornado's sail through each and every fleet on their way to the bottom of Key Biscayne. Why they cant shuffle some fleets
down the bay to share the inconvenience OR get enough tow boats to move the fleet around is not clear. Maybe the coach should solve some of these problems!

FYI, The launch site is public launch ramp with a parking lot. Over time.. one of the Tornado teams worked out details with the park to manage their training before
the event.. So US Sailing's contribution THIS YEAR was .. OK .. Bodie will manage it and pay for the Park's usage... After all of these years US sailing needs to solve the real problem. 13 miles to the race course is
silly! But not as silly as putting the official Notice Board at the US Sailing Center oh.. 15 miles away from the nearest Tornado!

So given the current launch and regatta area. If the wind is questionable... What do you do... In 4 knots of breeze... 13 miles is a LONG SAIL. Most fleets can wait it out on shore... even for the Tornadoo the time it takes to get to the Race course... set the course and run the race
take HOURS. Fortunately PU guesses right most of the time and keeps the fleet on the parking lot.

If the breeze is on... you can do the miles quickly. BUT by the time you get the third race of the day. (1.5 mile legs) ... you are TOASTED... Oh yeah... you get to sail home again ... 13 more miles.

We call a 26 mile round trip sail a DISTANCE Race !

So when Bundy says... they are exhausted... you can get a real sense of why that is so.

These problems are not new. Its just a lack of leadership over years that fails to solve these problems.

Does the OCR have enough boats to get the fleet out to the course and back on a tow... No!

Do they have any RIBS and personnel that can assist a flipped Tornado... NO!

Hell... do they have anybody with experience who can set the pin... No!...
PU had to hop on a boat and set the damn thing himself the first time and then got one of the coaches to set it for him there after. Rumor has it that he used an 80 foot Hatteras to set the mark one time

Bottom line.. the Tornado OCR is not a world class event by any standard of management. The sailors come because it is an ISAF grade one event...

Congratulations to all the sailors who do their best under tough conditions. Boo to the crowd at US Sailing that does not resolve these problems year after year yet tells the world what a great world class event we run


crac.sailregattas.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: Mark Schneider] #97818
01/30/07 04:45 PM
01/30/07 04:45 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Whow Mark!

Quote
But not as silly as putting the official Notice Board at the US Sailing Center oh.. 15 miles away from the nearest Tornado!


So thats why there were no protests in the Tornado class..

Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #97819
01/30/07 04:49 PM
01/30/07 04:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
****.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... again [Re: Mark Schneider] #97820
01/30/07 05:30 PM
01/30/07 05:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,279
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,279
Long Beach, California
Mark -

Thanks for bringing this to light. I'll take it upon myself to take this info along with some additional back-up, and put it in front of Bodie's face at the next USSA meeting in March. Maybe we can get it addressed. I know that the innovative Fleet 204 guys built a lumber ramp covered in indoor/outdoor carpet to create their own access during the Syracuse Alter Cup - perhaps something like that with a floating dock could be managed at the race site for the week. There's got to be a solution - all it takes is making it clear that someone gives a hoot. We rarely see a single person from the Tornado class at USSA meetings - this keeps their priorities from becoming USSA priorities. But with a little representation and advocacy, results are likely.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... again [Re: John Williams] #97821
01/30/07 07:26 PM
01/30/07 07:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Did they use Mathison Hammock or Billy Boggs park on Key Biscayne to launch instead of the Miami YC? What about using Hobie Beach and a rent-a-cop? Or they could just sail out the pass and do it in the ocean. OR, just use a different location entirely, like Key Largo.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... again [Re: Timbo] #97822
01/30/07 07:33 PM
01/30/07 07:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Quote
OR, just use a different location entirely, like Key Largo



DING DING DING DING!

They are using Matheson. Which is fine... just in the wrong location. The problem is all of the other sailing circles. You can't be up in the corner by Hobie Beach.. the wind is flukey and the Yahoo factor extreme... One of the previous Medalists lost a pair of rudders and years off his life when they got run over by a local yahoo sailing there.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: Mark Schneider] #97823
01/30/07 07:53 PM
01/30/07 07:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
old hand
rhodysail  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
Mark
Let me put it simply. You are way off base on all points.
Take it form someone who has been to every Grade One regatta on the planet. This has become one of the best. Hard times come with the territory and the good sailors know it they suck it up and get down to business. If you think 13 miles to the race course in a Tornado is hard then boy do I have some stories for you.
This is Olympic sailing not patty cake weekend warrior stuff.
Bob

Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: rhodysail] #97824
01/30/07 08:17 PM
01/30/07 08:17 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
I'm sorry, but the only time I've ever sailed 13 miles to get to the course was for an offshore regatta on a 35' keelboat. I don't care if I'm racing for the Donald's fortunes, I wouldn't expect to have to sail 1 hour each way just to GET to the course.

Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: rhodysail] #97825
01/30/07 08:28 PM
01/30/07 08:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
I gotta say that 13 miles to get to a buoy race course would not be acceptable to me. That could take up to three or four hours out of your day depending on weather! Certainly there is a better solution.


Jake Kohl
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: rhodysail] #97826
01/30/07 08:31 PM
01/30/07 08:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Hey... The 470's have a great venue... While the Tornado's... do a 27 mile round trip.

Besides... Its not my judgement... fer christ sakes it is Bundock and Asby's opinion, the winners! ... (I agreee with them ... been there... done that.. its simply not world class)

Can you put up with it... Yes... (and they have been)... Is it world class.... No way!

Should they put up with it... Or should US Sailing fix the logistical problem once and for all.

These guys are just so incompetent... you also might ask the 49ner fleet how they managed the ONE Port a Potty on their parking lot/ launch area! (lets see.. approx 50 boats two Males/ boat... One Johnny on the spot.. What do you think happened?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: Mark Schneider] #97827
01/30/07 09:08 PM
01/30/07 09:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
The 49er guys have HUGE bladders. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: hobie1616] #97828
01/30/07 10:33 PM
01/30/07 10:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 81
F18OxJ Offline
journeyman
F18OxJ  Offline
journeyman
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 81
I have to agree with Mark here. It is an unreasonable sail to the race course. Thursday we were just dead after doing three long races and we had to sail 13 miles upwind (making it more like 20 miles) to get back. Imagine doing this every day in addition to doing three 1+ hour races.

Also the business about having the official notice board at the sailing center was ridicolous as nobody would be able to check it. We were supposed to be able to check it online, but the site crashed the first day.

If you listen to feedback from the sailors you would not hear a whole lot of positive comments. Most europeans would not come back if it was not a grade 1 event.

PU did a great job and usually seems to save our butt by making sure we don't sail outside since we have no crash boats (against 'official' wishes). Our coach boat ended up being the pin boat most of the week because the boat assigned did not know how to set an anchor.

I have to say that this event could be a great one, but certainly for the Tornados it falls short.

Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: rhodysail] #97829
01/30/07 11:14 PM
01/30/07 11:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,279
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,279
Long Beach, California
Hey Bob -

Do we have information on the other classes launching sites? We should be able to determine quite easily if the Tornado class is out of line with the other classes at the event. Surely just from a 'customer satisfaction' standpoint, a class that represented substantial revenue to the event should be accomodated within reason. Let's take a look at what the competitors have to say and see if it bears further scrutiny before dismissing it out of hand. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: John Williams] #97830
01/31/07 07:17 AM
01/31/07 07:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,879
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,879
Detroit, MI
I agree with Bob, Mark - you're way off base.

Gary Bodie "highly paid"? Paid, yes, highly, no.

Here are the racing circles:
[Linked Image]

Tornados had Echo. Where else would you fit them?

I'm on the signal boat this week as the DRO with PU for the Tornado NA's - we are at least halfway down the bay just to get breathing room. Probably 6 miles from Crandon Park. We've struggled with resources again this week, but in no way has it affected the quality of the event. We invited Steadfast (the 80' motor yacht) to serve as the "pin end" of the finishing line on occasion simply because it was convenient, impressive and they get a real kick out of being involved.

Now if you don't mind, my Jedi Master is calling me to run some races . . .

Attached Files
Last edited by mbounds; 01/31/07 07:20 AM.
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... again [Re: Mark Schneider] #97831
01/31/07 07:53 AM
01/31/07 07:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mark, it sounds like things have improved. Back in the '70's when Rick sailed at a CORK regatta at Kingston, Ontario for the Olympic classes, the Tornado class had to sail two hours to get to the course, in good wind, so Rick estimates it was close to 30 miles. Lots of clear air out there in the middle of Lake Ontario. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: mbounds] #97832
01/31/07 08:31 AM
01/31/07 08:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
While I do agree that the 13miles, access to the notice board, etc. are not desireable, Mark, you are getting pretty offensive and sliding into "not constructive".

Where else in the world are similar events held? What are their solutions? That certainly is a lot of race courses in that area but there just has to be a better way - sounds like a lot of it simply comes down to not enough resources. Did the other classes have the same kind of mark and crash boats issues?

PS...have you all paid your US Sailing dues?


Jake Kohl
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: Jake] #97833
01/31/07 09:09 AM
01/31/07 09:09 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
13 miles to the notice board, and an hour of sailing to reach the course are both excessive in my opinion. I strongly suspect the reason for no protests in the class during the Miami event to be due to the distance. If so, it interfered directly with the racing. Not good..
In most Tornado regattas I have been to, it is from 5 minutes to 20-30 minutes max of sailing to reach the area. I have not been at the grade 1 events like Kielerwoche or Holland regatta (yet) tough, but from the information they send it dont look like it will take an hour to get to the starting line. Bundys comment implies as much also. But the Tornado always get the distant courses, due to our speed. Sucks big time when there is little wind and racing cancelled on the course. If you are lucky, you can catch a hitch with some pro teams and their coach boats back in, but can be a long paddle.
During one of the regattas in the south (Canaries?) the class refused to go out and race becouse the slower teams would not be able to return before it was dark, so Bundys comments are not whining about the distance but something the organizing committe for the Miami event should take seriously.

In the case of Miami, when it's already 13 miles to the official notice board and the 15 miles to the course, the launch/boat-parking area should be moved to somewhere closer to the racing area. It sounds like the Tornado is squeezed into an event without room for it.
1 portapotti for the 49er fleet.. Whoops!
No buoy boats or safety boats on the course.. Whoops!

All this is feedback the organizers should take very seriously if they want the event stay on the map. If they dont, even the olympians dont need to go to every event. Especially if there is just one major event on the continent. This time the Tornado worlds was in south america just before Miami. Next years the numbers in the Tornado fleet probably will drop.

Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: mbounds] #97834
01/31/07 09:35 AM
01/31/07 09:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,279
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,279
Long Beach, California
Hey Matt -

Sitting at the feet of the Sensei, learning the craft of race management - good gig for the week. Thanks very much for posting the race circles. Is that a scan? I'd like to get a larger image from you or from one of the teams racing there, and mark the locations of the various launch areas. It looks like Echo is farthest from the Center, but that does not give me an idea where they're launching. If the RC says that's the place to race, then it is - what it sounds like we need to investigate is moving the launch area and requesting that the official notice board be made accessible to the fleet.

Folks, let's try to strain out the message from the static. I appreciate that personalities get involved and can make for adverse reactions, but we have input from a former competitor at the event, a current competitor, and from a member of the international fleet that has attended other Tornado events. That, along with input from the RC for the event, is the info we should focus on when determining if there is a problem, and those people will have the best perspective on how to solve it.

I'd still like to thank Mark for bringing it up, even if people think he's being shrill. I hadn't heard a word of this, yet this issue is precisely the sort of thing that should be discussed at USSA meetings among those that plan and execute future OCR events. My experience with Brenner and Bodie is that they are dedicated men willing to listen to reasoned discussion - nobody enjoys getting yelled at, especially if, from your point of view, you've been killing yourself to provide the best event you're able. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #97835
01/31/07 09:43 AM
01/31/07 09:43 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Several years ago the Miami YC was the base for the Tornadoes and it worked fairly well, although it was a task sailing down the Intracoastal Waterway to get to Biscayne Bay.
At least there was a bulletin board there. The RC would call the club from the sailing center and post whatever needed to be posted.
The protests were still heard at Coral Reef YC, however, but it was about a 15-20 minute drive.
Actually the drive from Crandon Park is also about the same.

As for the race course, the Tornadoes used to be in the upper section of the bay close to Crandon Park, Hobie Beach area and Bear Cut.
When I was the race officer, I would always leave harbor at 9AM for an 11AM start. By getting there early, I would set up my course lengths on the long side just to be sure we had enough water.
If I didn't get out early, the Laser guys would set up and push us up into the corner where we would not have enough water.
On windy days in order to have a long enough course, we had used as much as 2 miles per leg. You need a lot of water for that. Normally, the leg length is around 1.5 to 1.8 miles.
We had several squabbles with the Lasers about that. I would just tell them they had lots of room to their south and to move on down.

After I quit doing the race officer deal, another PRO made a habit of not "getting to the church on time." Consequently, they had very little room to maneuver and I heard a lot of bad vibes about boats going aground and damage.

I believe that due to the Tornado fleet in masse complaining about this, the powers to be simply moved them way down south toward the Feather Banks.

The venue on the north side worked out pretty good, albeit there was a land mass there that affected the wind. But, most of the sailors quickly figured out the winds and it was not that much of a problem.

If the fleet does not want a long sail to the venue, they should lobby to get it back to the north end and be sure the RC gets out early and stakes out its territory.

Another alternative is to get some sort of setup like they have at Crandon down a Matheson Hammock Park. The Echo Course would be right in front of them in that case.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... aga [Re: RickWhite] #97836
01/31/07 10:22 AM
01/31/07 10:22 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 576
BobG Offline
addict
BobG  Offline
addict
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 576
Who was area India in the chart?I am guessing windsurfers and would the T's be better off thier at least they would be visible from the beach which is more"eye candy" for <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />cat-promo!

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