nacra 450 vs hobie

I have had a hobie wave several years and would like to move up a step in performance. I am in my early 50's, weigh about 215 lbs, usually sail solo on an inland lake, and do not race--just like to tool around. The Hobie Getaway and 17 seem a little big for a single person to right. On paper, the Nacra 450 looks about the right size. Nearest Nacra dealer is 10 hrs away, so I'm concerned about getting repairs. (Hobie dealer is 3 hrs away.) Anybody have any feedback on Nacras regarding reliability? Anybody with a 450 have any comments on performance and stability? Any other suggestions? Thanks

If I'm able to right the H17 at 170lbs, you could do it for sure.

Mike:

Keep the Wave and add this!! You will have a giant killer that is light to move:
http://store.catsailor.com/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=jmnrkomnk0

Doug

I do not know if you are planning to buy a new one or a used one. If you are planning on a new one you make just consider getting a used Formula 16 instead. You do not have to sail it with a chute or even a jib and it is very easy for one person to right. I think that Rick has an ad for one at less than $9000.

A Nacra 500 performs about how a Hobie 16 does. I was just involved with a youth multihull clinic. We had a couple of Nacra 500s about 6 Hobie 16s and an SL16. I would guess that the 450 being about 2 feet shorter would perform more along the lines of a Hobie 14. I would say that is just barely a step above the wave.

What are you trying to accoplish with this purchase? For tooling around the Wave is a good boat. For more performance, non-racing of course, then...?

Another easily righted boat would be an A-Cat. Sometimes you can find them for under $10K and that is a ride!

Later,
Dan

Isn't the whole hooter on a wave thing a case of 1 foot itis? Why not just get a f17, f16 or A class?

He says he sails solo and doesn't race. Why does he need a race boat? For a about $2200 he would have a fast boat he can handle and move by himself.

Just my 2 cents.

Doug

The wave looks fun and with the Hooter it could be a blast. Isn't that wave a little slower than the 14? I bet with the hooter you would be smoking them and other small cats.

The nacra 450 is too small for you. Instead, look at the nacra 500 (or nacra 5.0) or even a hobie 16; you could still right either. The nacra 450 hulls have less volume than the Wave (they're longer but narrow).

I would put a roller-furling Hooter on the Wave. It makes it a whole different boat in the lighter winds that predominate on a lot of lakes in the summer. I would also install a traveler track for the mainsail, and add the optional trapeze (just for fun in heavier air). <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For the cost of that re fit he could get a Hobie 17 and then sell on the Wave.

Well, the Hobie 17 is probably heavier to move around and harder to right and takes a lot longer to rig than a Wave.

Plus, I don't know where he sails, but if it is on United States midwest or northeast inland lakes, summers have notoriously light wind, and ANY boat is going to be slow and boring. If that is the case, he is going to want a hooter on the Hobie 17, too.

Plus, his weight won't particularly affect boat performance with the Wave, whereas it probably will with the Hobie 17, which has a lot less buoyancy.

And at his age, the Hobie 17 might be a little more athletic than he wants -- is he going to want to trapeze off the wing if it is windy? Especially when he is solo sailing and probably pretty much alone out there on the lake as far as other sailors watching out for him?

On the other hand, in lighter air, the wing is more comfortable seating for us older folks -- I have thought about putting some kind of lawn chair on my Wave. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

All three ARE RIGHTABLE under the right conditions. At 215 the 4.5 will be the only one of the three you could right in all conditions without the use of a bag.

The 450 is also bullet proof and most of the parts are ronstan (readily available and cheaper then Hobie) and it’s simple to repair fiberglass. The 450 like the 5.0 both have very good handling characteristics.

The Gateway is the slowest of the three and made from plastic similar to the wave so it’s also the heaviest of the three as well. Advantage of plastic being impact resistance and not weight and speed.

The H17 is the fastest and most powerful of the three and uses center boards so will tack/ turn easier but you’ll need to bring along a righting bag as it’s heavier with a longer mast then the 4.5 (the N5.0 is actually lighter then the H17).

Buoyancy wise the 450 was approved in AUS for up to four persons. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Here's two that nobody has mentioned, but I've always thought about for just your purpose (single handed fun sailing):

Taipan 4.9 uni
Nacra/Inter 17, regular or R

Both boats have a great level of performance for the single handing sailor. Both boats can handle taking an extra person along for a ride. Both boats have the option of using a spinnaker when you're ready to try that (believe me, once you do you'll be hooked).

Nacras are pretty darn reliable. Most things you may need a dealer replacement for could be shipped to you.

Mike:

If you go 17 route. I will show you how to make it fast and fun in heavy or light air.

Doug
dsnell4 at houstom dot rr dot com

Thanks for all the replies, it's appreciated. When I compare the 450 to the Wave I see a boat that is 2 ft longer, 1 ft wider, weighs 280 lbs vs. 245, has jib blocks on the front beam instead of the tramp, and a portsmouth rating of 77.5 vs 93.4. A big jump for not much weight or size. The 500 is another 2 ft longer, and weighs 340 lbs. The Getaway is 390 lbs. I do remember a post by Danno where he had a leak in a hull on his 450. That concerns me. The rotomolded hulls on the Hobie have been darn near torpedo proof. I do wonder how much less bouyant the 450 is. On my lake there are some lowrider 16's when 2 good size adults are aboard. BTW another poster mentioned NACRA's "uninspiring" website. Amen to that! Thanks to everyone for your input.

We had a fellow in our club racing a 500 - very nice little boat, and worked very well for him both single and double handed. I would tend to try to go as large as you can and still be comfortable with moving it around.

Out of the boats I've had, the NACRA hulls have been the best.

If you want a rotomolded boat that also performs like a true beach cat then the best options are to found here.

Dart 16 (standard)

Dart 16 (X-version)

The Dart 16 X versions looks alot more modern and it probably a quite pleasant and performant beach cat.

The pricing is very acceptable as well, as so far I can compare them to EU pricing for nacra's and hobie.

I think this Dart 16 X-version should have been the youth boat over the SL16 if ISAF had actually followed their own design goals as defined during the youth selection proces. The difference with the SL16 ? Rotomolded hulls.

Wouter

I suspect the Dart 16X is Laser's knee-jerk response to the announcement from Topper of the new Topaz 16C, designed by Yves Loday and Rob White, which coincidentally is also available in two versions of similar spec to the two Darts. Surprise, surprise! They're the 16C and 16CX! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The main difference is that the 16C looks more modern and is claimed to be nearly as fast as a Spitfire according to one of the salespeople on the Topper stand at the London Boat Show.




The fast version is the one in the background.

I think 340lbs for the Nacra 5.0 might be an overestimate, I have heard that they are more like 320. The Nacra feels very lively when sailing and is much stiffer than a getaway. These other roto boats may have improved.

The only letter missing is the "F" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Mary, I don't mean to be rude... but to copmpare a Wave with a Hobie 17 is like comparing .... anyone got any ideas?
Oh I have one.. An MX5 (Miata for you guys I think) with a 911. You might have some arguments ... but not really.

True they are very different boats, but they are both beachcats. They are build for two very different purposes, so it isn't really fair to compare them.

I'm sorry. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Actually, if it were me, I would get an older, wood A-class cat.

Nice choice... But I am not responsible enough to have a wooden boat.
Actually I am not responsible enough to have my own box of matches.

No contest. Nacra 450. SCHRS gives it 110 as a single hander. This is way faster than Hobie 17, 16 wave etc. Dont get the boat confused with the old 4.5. This is well designed and a real giant beater.

I know we are talking about the 450 but I recently bought an old 5.2 and have been amazed. It is a great 2-up boat and since I have started sailing it solo I have been nothing but impressed!

Can you post a photo or link to a 4.5 that can beat an H17

Yes of course the T4.9 wins hands down.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mike,
Where do you sail -- what part of the U.S. or of the world? It is really hard to make suggestions about boats unless we know the conditions in which you normally sail.

Guys:

Don't know about the 5.2, BUT this 5.5 kicked our butt in High Portsmouth at the Texas Catamaran Championships!!

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
"Stress Free" # 007

Mary:
I am in NE Wisconsin on a 2.2 x 0.8 mile lake, about 0.5 miles inland from Lake Michigan. We get good breezes between 8-20 knots daily, usually only 1-2 foot waves. Warm, fairly shallow lake. Daggerboards would be at risk in spots. I stay off Lake Michigan.

To summarize, you're looking for a boardless cat with higher performance than the Wave. Here are the best options as I see it:

1. Nacra 5.0 or 500--can sail with or w/out jib, alone or with crew, safe/boomless rig; can be righted by someone 215lbs with effort in the right conditions

2. Hobie 14--too small for you; I know because I have one and can bog it down with my 185lbs.

3. Hobie 16--always an option due to availability; downside is its' weight and more primitive design.

4. Nacra 450--probably too small for you, especially if you ever take someone else out.

Here's a couple other options if you want to consider centerboards or daggerboards:

5. Taipan 4.9 cat-rigged--simple to rig, very light weight to move around (well over 100lbs lighter than the nacra or hobie options), nearly as fast as an A-cat but sturdy enough to sail off the beach, designed for one or two people, option of adding a jib or spinnaker later, can be righted by someone 215lbs easily; superior built quality

6. Sea Spray--it's very light; daggerboards, fast but no trapeze; cartoppable

7. Hobie 17--similar description to Nacra 5.0, but with the pros and cons of racks and centerboards

8. Freestyle 15--daggerboards, light, fast, hard to find

And a few boats that would "fit the bill" but are hard to find in usable condition:

9. Prindle 15
10. Prindle 16
11. G-cat 5.0

Now, what about cost (used boats)...

Taipan 4.9 cat $7,500 and up
Nacra 5.0/500 $1,000 and up
Nacra 450 ?
Hobie 16 $700 and up
Hobie 14 $700 and up
Sea Spray free and up
Hobie 17 $1,500 and up
Freestyle 15 $500 and up
Prindle 15/16 free and up
G-cat free and up

Hope this helps--good luck; seems like this time of year would be a buyers market in Wisconsin.