"instant justice in the sand"

Davi wrote this about the A class Midwinters on the Class Blog




Interisting issues raised here...

Is the game better or worse if you dispense with the rules and structure of a protest committe?

Why do regattas recruit a judge to chair their committe if we can just solve any dispute on the beach as above... or...by scheduling the protest meeting the third thursday following the regatta at three AM.

Is "instant justice in the sand"... back to the wild wild west of sailing? Nascar rules? Does it matter if the jury was in the race..

So... if you get DSQ for not doing your circle but were not properly hailed... were you screwed over... or were you pushing the rules and justice was served.

Davi seems quite please that the A Class culture does not look favorably on protests. Is this a good thing for a class? What other classes have this unspoken culture? What classes have the opposite culture ?.. E.G. willing to battle over the letter ... screw the spirit of the rule.

Hi Mark -

You'd have to look at the class rules and the SIs for the event - for the Alter Cup's current structure, provisions were made for "beach justice" (a term I thought we'd coined <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) which changed the standard RRS for time limits, etc. Beach Justice is neccessary in determining who is in the next heat at the Championship.

I am hoping, and working with the judges for the upcoming Alter Cup, to see a drastic reduction in the number of protests and requests for redress filed at the Championship - we have twice missed out on winning the St. Petersburg Trophy for Excellence in Race Management because of the number of protests filed. People need to stop trying to improve their position through litigation - maybe the A-Class has indeed taken steps to see a return to a higher level of sportsmanship.

Perhaps your example is an apple and orange comparison.

The Alter cup is more like a college dinghy regatta. Everybody is jumping from boat to boat... Beating/using the rules is viewed as part of the game

You don't really want to argue that the rules and the protest committes are causing a lack of sportsmanship by the sailors do you???

I dont see how you can get DSQ'd if you are not hailed.

I'm asserting that there has been an upswing, IMO, of sailors who are willing to "roll the dice" with a protest committee even when they know they are wrong and they broke a rule. If a class takes steps, either administratively or through adopting a pervasive attitude of disapproval, to reduce the erosion of the Corinthian spirit, then I say "well done."

Better only if its understood by all up front.

Worse if its not.

This was the first protest I have seen at a championship since I have raced in the class. Several of us urged the two sailors to see if they could resolve the incident without taking it to a protest but Ian felt it needed to be heard.

The protest committee was made up of Pease and Jay Glaser who did not sail the race and Ward Cromwell (sailing coach at College of Charleston) who was sailing but did not witness the incident. All are obviously excellent sailors. I do not know the details of the decision as I had to get on the road home.

We in the A-class do try to stress to competitors to resolve incidents if possible on the water. We've been very successful to date and that makes our race committees very happy.

Bob Hodges

I am all for having an organized judge and jury system for relatively major events. The problem is, that on too many occasions, our judge and jury system doesn't work. If frivolous protests would regularly get tossed out of the protest room on their butts, these non-sportsman like things would happen less often. The problem is that stupid protests actually win and THAT is what leads to more racing in the protest room. In the relatively few years I've been sailing, I've seen some real B.S. at many different judicial levels of the sport and organization.

How do you fix it? I'm not really sure....but having an informal, last minute, and possibly untrained protest committee is not the answer (I'm not targeting this event in particular). Having judgments come out that are wrong will make things worse as people see what they can accomplish within that system or feel that they need to step up their game to match those with less sportsmanship. Finding a way to swing more judgments toward caution might help - but again, not sure how you go about that.

Actually overheard in the restroom at Alter Cup:

"Yeah, I know I was OCS, but hey... you never know, so I went ahead and filed for redress."

I've seen guys I know and respected lie, cheat and steal. Ugly stuff. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The Protest Committee makes an honest effort - but garbage in = garbage out.

This form of resolving the issue is better known as "KANGAROO COURT"

I'm not sure I buy into the impromptu meeting in the sand rendering an official decision. I think such meetings could serve to reduce the number of protests filed by persuading someone to drop a protest or to withdraw. How about making it an unofficial pre-hearing to discuss the rules and to test the validity of a protest, the legal equivalent of arbitration prior to litigation.

BTW…54 boats! Well done A cat guys.

Respectfully but strongly disagree - a kangaroo court is a sham with a foregone conclusion where the defense has no opportunity to present a case. The situations discussed here are completely different. Everything in beach justice follows normal RRS procedure - the only difference is that the time limits for filing protest have changed. I think this is good in some cases because it removes the time period in which some might be tempted to alter their testimony to fit a rule or some Dick Rose article. It also ensures that witnesses are still available and the RC can be quickly queried regarding sailing conditions, etc.

As long as the A-Class made provisions in their race documents for such a procedure, then everything is kosher. I submit that the quality of the decision rendered was unlikely to have been negatively impacted by the change in procedure.

The last time I sailed the Alter Cup in 2003 in F-18HT's, we had a block fail for the spinnaker retrieval system during a race. We were first around the weather mark and lost 5-6 boats trying to get the spinnaker up and down with the jammed block sheave. We clawed our way back and passed a competitor who blew a tack at the upwind finish line to finish 4th and felt pretty damn good about it. Later on the beach, we found out this competitor had filed for redress for a similar issue. He won his redress and was given a higher placing than ours in the race. We felt cheated but I think my teammate (Jason Sneed) and I felt better not trying to get a better placing with redress. The block failure could have happened on any boat so we did not think it was fair to request redress.

Peer pressure in a fleet can make a big difference in rules enforcement and I think that is what is working in the A-class to keep the racing clean and fun. Rule breakers will find themselves somewhat ostracized by the rest of the fleet if they practice that behavior.

Bob Hodges

Boo icky protests!
Hooray Beer!

OSYC regattas do not entertain protests. Mr Schneider, you should see our SIs... "Protests will be heard at 2500h at Red's Levee Bar, bring an Uzi."

Hi Bob

Was the beach justice meeting written about following this procedure

16. ARBITRATION
All protests involving rules of Part 2 of the RRS shall be first submitted to arbitration. The arbitration procedure will be posted on the Official Regatta Notice Board as an addendum to the Sailing Instructions. This changes RRS Rule 63.

or were the two individuals way beyond arbitration and now in the protest meeting stage.

Sounds like a combination of peer pressure and arbitration could handle john's complaint about frivoulous protests.

Boudacia
In the north east we have laws against assult weapons... Sadly... we would not be able to protest in your part of the south.

The use of arbitration was posted in the NOR. The actual procedure was to be posted as an addendum to the SIs, though, and is therefore apparently not available online.

The usual arbitration procedure is that if the parties involved are not satisfied with the concensus of the arbitration (not necessarily the decision, but more the interpretations and outside viewpoint) they can go to a formal protest. However, if they are satisfied that a jury of their peers all see the incident in a certain way, then going to a protest will almost certainly result in a similar verdict (and therefore a waste of everyone's time). What I'm not sure of is if holding an arbitration meeting can be done without filing a protest; is the protest withdrawn if it stops at arbritation; does this then count against any US Sailing report re the RC? Some bean counting type issues there.

We are missing all the information presented at the hearing, so we have NO way of knowing why the offending boat was DSQ, and why the affected boat was not given redress. My GUESS is that the hearing revealed that the offending skipper was proven to have recognised the foul, and did not volunteer a penalty turn. Could he have overturned this in a formal hearing? Maybe, but maybe he didn't want to further compound his initial failure to accept fault. Don't know why he wouldn't have RAF'd himself then (retired after finishing) vs accepting a DSQ, though. No idea on why no redress, unless having your tiller knocked out of your hand is no excuse for then hitting the mark and having to do a turn (in traffic). Maybe he was yelling too much and not grabbing the tiller enough :-) Total conjecture on my part.

I have no problems with arbitration hearings; maybe they prevent some of the BS protests. They can easily stop a lot of newbie protests between people ignorant of or mixed up on rules. Probably less effective for serious complex issues. If nothing else, they involve a bigger circle of people who can now tell other sailors "we told Joe Sea Lawyer that his protest didn't hold water, but he went ahead anyway". In the end, a bad reputation is the only penalty for too many protests.

Mark Mark Mark........

Your missing what's important here.

"To cap off the week of racing Bob Webbon delivered free pizza at the final awards ceremony."

From the USACA Website.

Have noticed that single handed sailors have very narrow minds on who was at fault. The first thing they check when they touch a mark is if anyone saw them.

IMHO at every skippers meeting any PRO worth his salt stands up and makes it clear that the race is being raced by US sailing rules or state clearly who the ruling body is. After that for those that know the rules will abide by them. For those that don't know the rules, no whining.

Let's face it racing is intense and we love it that way. That doesn't mean bending the rules.

By the way I have a pretty big rant!!
Who came up with the B.S. idea that you could sail an entire race like you didn't foul anybody then do a 360 or 720 before you finish. The rules state a penalty turn must be done as soon possible without disturbing others. I hate it when there is a protest at the first mark involving a pack of 10 boats, the boat that fouled does a penalty turn at the end of the race and only losses one place instead of lossing 10 places. Who started this nonsense I blame America's Cup Racing.

Anybody else know who started it?


J.P.Ayers
Isotope 186

Hey Mark,
Still stirring the pot ,I see:).
Dogtown Yacht Club has a rule where the protester must provide beer for all attending the protest committee.
Needless to say this limits the amount of protests,cuz everybody can come to the protest hearing.
Todd

I really appreciate Dan Wards angle. a little legal wrangling to "test" the protest before actually filing one. This keeps everyones rights intact to argue at a later date if they are that convicted.

I think that doing your penance just before the end started in match racing.

I really don't know. I think it was a "formal" hearing because the protesting sailor wrote out the protest form and submitted it and the protest was heard just like any other protest except it was outside.

Has your generalization above not suggested every singlehanded sailor in this country is a cheater? I think you should clarify as personally, I'm insulted. Maybe that's the case in the Isotope class but very isolated in the A-class and I believe that is one the positive things drawing more sailors to the boat. A new sailor at the Midwinters last week told me it was as much the class as it was the boat that convinced him to purchase one. That made me feel real good about how others see us.

Bob Hodges

As one who is looking to get into cat sailing, and possibly racing, this makes for an enlightening read. While there is much camaraderie demonstrated on this forum, I find it troubling to read this and hear that there is some lacking in sportsmanship when racing. Competitiveness is great, but tossing your moral compass overboard simply to finish higher completely devalues any result you achieve.

This whole discussion makes me wonder whether my wife and I will ever end up doing any racing at all. If events like those described here are at all regular, I suspect we'll opt for just romping around on our own and not worrying about it.

Stuart,
It is hard to think of a sport where there aren't people who "cheat" or try to take advantage of the rules in every way they can. Sailing is probably one of the sports with the least infractions. And at least sailors don't usually get accused of taking steroids. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

P.S. If you are sailing in small groups, generally a person who is causing problems will be talked to, reprimanded or whatever is necessary to get them to follow the rules properly if they want to continue racing in that group.

Stuart,

I believe you are making the wrong assumptions. In my experience racing catamarans, the sailors are pretty good at observing the major right of way rules and I find the attitude on the race course is way more tolerant and "professional" than you'll find elsewhere. I've gotten more than one comment from yacht club race committees about how much easier it is to run an event for multihull sailors and the high level of sportmanship that is typically displayed.

What I think has been referred to above are petty protests against race committees and redress requests that can tend to sour an event.

The better the fleet, the less possibility for protests as the sailors are more knowledgeable and experienced and just avoid situations that could lead to a rules infraction.

Hope this encourages you to join the multihull racing ranks, it's some of the best racing you can do.

Bob Hodges

First, you will learn sailing, much faster by racing, even if it is in a mixed fleet. If you are worried about getting lapped, bring beer.

Second,



In my experience they are rare. Most of the time, a simple "Protest" on the water takes care of it. “Protest! You tacked to close and I had to head up to avoid you, you owe a circle,” for example takes care of it. I've been to the protest room once or twice, I only remember once vividly. (The protest room: the outside bar instead of the inside bar, The process as I know it: Commodore picks three senior sailors to be Protest Committee, announces protest hearing to take place if no physical damage was done, each side states their case, nothing written down that I know of, Protest Committee asked questions to clarify situation, they get answers, and rules that are applicable are discussed openly.) Everyone learns from protesting, and being protested. If you are afraid of learning or making mistakes, you need to look inside and at the community that you sail with.

I have never been to another club where the environment is as open to making mistakes and getting help like this one. The rules are complicated and hard to learn. Each protest hearing helps everyone learn. Perhaps this is the tipping point of why WRCRA continues to grow cat sailors, instead of just steal them from other classes. And, I believe in stealing sailors from other classes.

One less T20 sailor and one more N20 sailor for example . . . <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Hmmm . . . where are those local F16 and F18 sailors?

I can't speak to the sportsmanship in racing as I'm not involved with racing (too many irons in the fire to dedicate a specific night to sailing). From lurking and reading, I've gathered that it seems a lot like sportsmanship in golf. Mostly handled on the honor system, but if you make a big enough stink about something, you can get other people to back your argument to force the perp to score correctly.

Playing golf, I am a single digit handicapper and love the game. I have no problem with people who don't score correctly(accidentally or intentionally), but I do get irritated when I play with people that obviously don't score correctly/cheat and at the end of the round they're telling everyone what a great round they shot and about the birdie on #12 (which they happened to hit a mulligan or foot wedge). Does it detract from the game? No. I don't play for the bragging rights about my round, I play because I love blasting a drive down the middle of the fairway, sticking the pin with my 8 iron, or chipping in from the fringe. I like just being out on the course.

I suspect the same is true for _most_ of the people out there racing. They're not worried about winning the t-shirt at the end of the day, they just love being on the course, pulling on the sheets, feeling their boat accelerate past the boat next to them.

Don't let a few poor sportsman keep you from doing something you love. If you like the competition, then ignore the cheaters... jump in and go for it.

And ... over time ... the cheaters will be well known amongst your Fleet. So people will discount them when they say they did this or that.

Stuart, if you are at all competitive ... you'll want to race! After all the beer tastes alot better when you share stories with others!

And remember what Robi says:

"There are those that will and those that have".

The delayed penalties clause is in the special provisions section for match racing (Rule C8 or C9 replaces rule 44 of the regular racing rules). Rule 44 simply states that a boat taking a penalty must sail clear of other boats and perform it's circles as soon as reasonably possible.

I think this came about in match racing to try to keep the race alive. Without this rule in match racing, if you foul someone and are behind, the race is essentially decided. Makes for more exciting racing.

Hold on.Let me clarify.

Bob, was railing against single handed skippers that think they can cheat over and over again and think that there sailing buddies don't notice. I have no qualms with A-catters nor did I mention them in my rant.

Stuart, one skipper doesn't ruin the fleet it is very rare to find a skipper that deliberately cheats, Single handed racing for me is the only way to go. It is a passion of mine that I can safely say I will do for the rest of my life. Sailing is fun racing is fun but with a little more intensity "if you want". Don't let my rant keep you from doing something wonderful in your life.

Thanks everyone for responding to my question. Now I blame the match racing circuits.

J.P.
Isotope 186

Stuart,
My experience in racing has been poor. As a rookie my 18 was t-boned and destroyed. I seriously considered never racing again. Changed my mind, entered several races and had fun. Then got into another issue, was discouraged again. I find that the majority of sailors at regattas are great people and fun to be around. There are always a few exceptions. Racing is very fun, you learn alot, and if you can turn off the competitive side its more fun. I plan to race again this year with my wife. We will not try to get on the line for starts, back down whether we have rights or not, and just have fun. I'm not willing to sacrifice the experience of racing over a few instances. I feel I did the right thing both times, don't know that the other skippers can make that same statement without fear of lightning. Go to races, stay back out of the way and learn. My 2 cents.

Windyhillf20,
Sounds like a good plan. I am just curious, though -- when you had those earlier problems, were you racing in a one-design fleet or racing on Portsmouth? Usually a one-design fleet is organized and it is easier to get problems within the class or the fleet addressed and resolved.

Man, don't try to back down if you're on starboard!

You might cause some confusion/collisions.

Back when I was racing in Hobie Division 3, there were two 18 skippers that were always guaranteed to protest either each other or any other boat that got in their way. They were the exception and became an ongoing joke for the rest of us.

Sail a clean race and you won't have to worry about protests.

Dude, the last time I suffered damage I was on starboard and didn't back down. Couldn't get any committee to hear me and the skipper of the port boat I hit didn't retire from the race, didn't do penalty turns, nothing. He is an experienced skipper that choose to start on port, fouled the 18 in front of me ( that didn't protest ), and I had no where to go. He even had the nerve to say he thought my 18 mag was a 16 and "I knew I'd be gone before you got here". I hailed him, my crew hailed him, and those on the committee boat must have had their heads up their butts to see nothing at the start line. He refused to give me his insurance info and the race promoters did nothing to help either. Cost me personally to repair my boat.

Mary,
Was racing one design but on course with other boats at the same time. I was hit by a boat I wasn't competing with. I was on port and he hit my port hull. I never saw him coming and as he never hailed, felt the impact before I knew what was happening.

Actually ISAF racing rules committee started this by making the following mistake.

In the rule where you touch a mark on the course it says you must do a penalty promptly without hindering anybody else.

In the rule where you foil another competitor it only says that you have to do a penalty turn.

By explicetly writing "prompty" (or something to that extend) in one rule but NOT using it in the other rule it gives good ground on which to claim that you can do your penalty turn whenever you want as long as you didn't foul on a mark.

Somebody who was making the racing rules simply forgot to include an important aspect in one of the rules and this is the result.

But it is that way and any good racer can and should make use of that in my opinion. Because if you don't then you only limit yourselfs as some other crew will. Then it is better to all (as in more fair) if we all do it at a time of our chosing.

Wouter

That is true to a point. When you are racing in a really competitive fleet like at worlds etc then playing the rules becomes part of the game just as it is with any top sport.

There will always be crews who will be looking to drive you into a pinch at that level when just their plain speed is not enough. Team Booth is an example for this tactic. And honestly, while I deeply respect a more chevalrous approach to sailing, I also think that at the real top level this is inevitable. By limiting yourself to not playing this game you disadvantage yourself. That is why real top sport is not a nice occupation for alot of times.

But then again we are talking about the real top level events here.

Wouter

That is actually a very good point. If you have rights then claim them. That will make it far easier for the other crew to dip below you or whatever. Also when you show "weakness" in claiming your rights then you'll find that some crews are willing to draw you into a "who blinks first contest" and that can quickly lead to troubles.

Wouter

Wouter,
No disrespect but the kind of aggression you describe has no place at a beer can race. Unfortunately it seems to slip in there anyway. Local fleet regattas where there is no money involved should be friendly non-aggressive events. Yes, competitive but friendly. Pushing the point of who is right at every turn takes the fun out of it, as I see it. If there were a,b & c fleets then I would sail in C fleet and not have to deal with the aggression and skill of A fleet teams. I'm sure A fleet sailors would prefer that as well.

Hi Wouter,

You know that I respect your boat knowledge as I have asked for your opinion more than once but I have to correct you about your rules knowledge since you gave the wrong answer and it would be easy for people to think it was correct since you are so knowledgeable about other things. I encourage you to read rule 44.2 as it explicitly states that all penalties for breaches of rules of Part 2 (When Boats Meet) must be taken promptly.

I also want to make it clear (to all readers) that the fundamental and right-of-way rules are VERY SHORT (22 rules on 10 small pages) and there are so many easily accessible and effective methods and websites to help people to learn the rules that there is simply NO excuse for any racer not to know them well. I will be glad to provide suggested resources if anyone is interested.

Mike,

I looked it all up a while ago, after a massive disagreement at tacticat or something. And this is the way I remember it.

Maybe the rules have changed since then or I just remember it wrong. Anyway, everybody look for himself, I may be wrong on this.

Personally, in real life I make my turns quite soon, it is more sportive in that way.

Wouter

Indeed.

I was talking about truly high level racing, for 90 % of us here that is a totally different league.

Wouter

Mike, a quick link to a good (free) rules site would be nice, maybe Mary and Rick can make it a permanant fixture? That would help us all to become more educated. Thanks.

my personal favorite
rules quiz
don't remember which one of you guys posted this on Catsailor (Rolf?) but I bookmarked it

Timbo:

May not be free, but close to it. BUT this is one of the easiest and best to understand. Seeing a picture is worth a 100 words of trying to explain it.
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Raci...4690321-2609207

Doug Snell
Hobie 17 "Stress Free" #007
Mystere 4.3 #149
Sunfish

Perhaps this is a case where there is a difference between the RRS (as published by US Sailing) and the International rules (published by ISAF???). I'm not sure since I've only ever seen the US sailing book.

By the way, the rules are all available online at www.ussailing.org Between that and UK Sails online rules quiz, you should be able to learn them without having to buy one of the explanation books.

That is a great book. Anyone local that wants to borrow it just let me know. The books don’t cover all the situation you can get into and I need to draw one situation I have been in and get all-you-alls opinion on it.

Look at your local sailing club’s calendar and any university near by. A few years ago I was told about the Navy Academy’s Sailing Squadrons classes. When Brad Dellenbaugh was the head guy he was open to a few "outsiders" attending the classes, as long as there was enough room for the middies. If you get the chance, Brad is great at explaining the rules. He uses his Americas cup judging experience in his classes. One of the many things I have taken away from his classes is that you must read the rules that apply and insert the definitions of the italicized words. Don’t' try to apply them from memory when forensically looking at a situation or a protest. If you do, you get individual recollections of the rule and it almost always wont be accurate.

Mast-abeam anyone,

Actually JP, I was taking issue with your generalization that singlehanded sailors tend to overlook the rules more per you earlier post. That's the way I read it.

Bob

This one is my favorite.

-Rob Vaden

http://www.ukhalsey.com/RulesQuiz/index.asp

Chris:

Think you mean David. Is this the guy you are talking about?

http://www.speedandsmarts.com/

Doug

Dave is his brother. I meant Brad see linky:

http://www.americascup.com/en/americascup/news_official/detail.php?idIndex=0&idContent=5172

I can see a beach jury as a triage to decide if the protest needs to be advanced. If the glove don't fit...

Hi Tim,

That is a great idea to have Rick make a permanent link to good rules sites. Several responders have already suggested good ones; the list I am going to offer here repeat some of those and offer even more. Before I put that in I want to reply to Todd's comment. The RRS are the ISAF rules - they are the same around the world. The only differences are prescriptions that individual countries make for their purposes and those are limited. The whole point is to allow racers to learn just one set of rules and race anywhere (such as the Olympics).

The first step for every racer is to get a copy of the rules AND ACTUALLY READ THEM!!! That simple action would immensely reduce the rules confusion expressed on this forum. Whenever you discuss rules with someone, have a copy of the rules in front of you. Look at the websites available, find the one(s) you like, and just read and study a rule a day, or week, even. For a fraction of the time and reading that this forum requires, you could become a rules scholar!! Please note in my insert below what the very first statement in the rules book says and what Fundamental rule three says that you promise to do every time you race! You cannot meet your obligations if you do not know the rules!:

The Racing Rules 2004-2008
“Competitors in sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire”.



1 SAFETY
1.1 HELPING THOSE IN DANGER
A boat or competitor shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger.
1.2 LIFE-SAVING EQUIPMENT AND PERSONAL BUOYANCY
A boat shall carry adequate life-saving equipment for all persons on board, including one item ready for immediate use, unless her class rules make some other provision. Each competitor is individually responsible for wearing personal buoyancy adequate for the conditions.
2 FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat’s series score.
3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules; (b) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under the rules; and (c) with respect to such determination, not to resort to any court or other tribunal not provided in the rules.
4 DECISION TO RACE
A boat is solely responsible for deciding whether or not to start or to continue racing.


WEBSITES FOR RRS INFORMATION AND REFERENCE (Last updated in early 2006)

International Sailing Federation website: http://www.sailing.org/
Select “Rules” at the top of the page. This page starts the RRS and at the bottom of this page you can choose “Racing Rules Q&A Service” which lists different questions and answers written from around the world about racing situations causing confusion; especially handy for race officials. You can also choose “Publications” to get the ISAF Cases – authoritative explanations and interpretations of actual racing protest situations and the decisions of the protest and appeals committees.

U.S. Sailing website: http://www.ussailing.org
Select “Racing” at the top of the page and then “Racing Rules” in the menu window.

U.S. Sailing racing course website: http://www.racing.sailingcourse.com/index.html
(Most realistic training simulations of basic rules situations - video style)

UK Sailmakers interactive rules quiz website: (Also available for sale on CD) http://www.ukhalsey.com/RulesQuiz/index.asp
(Probably the best site for rules quizzes)

Selected Dick Rose rules explanation columns from Sailing World magazine
http://www.sailingworld.com/sw_experts.jsp?typeID=402&catID=595

COLREGS website: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/navrules.htm
(These rules apply when racing after sunset and before sunrise)

SailNet Learning to Sail website: http://www.sailnet.com/collections/learningtosail/rules/index.htm
(Interactive place to learn the international and inland rules)

“Uncle Al’s” rules website: http://www.angelfire.com/de2/WIT/Rules_in_Pics_index.html
(Folksy manner - includes updated rules explanations and quizzes using real photos of sailboats racing)

Thanks Mike, for taking the time to round all those up! Now we really have NO EXCUSE to not know the rules. Mary, can we somehow keep these links around so they don't get lost when this thread goes down the list? Or should we put them on that "Test" thread, that just won't die?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Hey Mike,

Thanks for clarifying that. Also good on you for putting all these links together. Good reminder to include the Colregs. I think that is another area where there is alot of confusion. Looks like we all have some light reading before next season!!

Considering who two of the judges were, I have no problem with the "instant justice" in the sand. I cannot think of two more impartial people in the A-Class than Jay and Pease Glaser.

Will be glad to put a permanent link to Rules on the template Page Index.
Sort of like where I have the Link to Handicap Ratings.

Good idea.
Rick

At the recent OCR & NA's, my Tornado was on the recieving end of several obvious fouls (port/starboards, luffing before start, tacking on starboard layline within 2 bl's of top mark), some by top teams in the sport. We also had several teams trying to intimidate us on the start line by yelling that we could not luff them from leeward...this might even be an sportsmanship rule infringement.

Hailing "Protest", popping out the red flag (required by the 20' rule as T's are just a bit longer) made no difference...no boat made a penalty turn. Though against my better judgement, we did not follow these up with the formal protest procedure. Realistically, we were at the back of the fleet, some offenders in the top ten...we'd not gain much more than a moral victory, while they could lose their shot at the games. Plus, it's a very small group of teams and the bad karma is never good. We did have a couple of guys come up to us afterwards to apologize for the fouls...an unexpected olive-branch.

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So, back to the first post. His tiller extension hit another boat. What is the actual rule here? Does the length of the tiller extension come into play? Can I keep my tiller always fully extended and claim room?

can't "parts of the boat in its normal position" mean extended? what about boats that have retractable spin poles (tris for example) can't you leave the spin pole extended all the way on a windward course and have it count as overlap at a mark? similar meaning, so I think you can leave your tiller extended... now having it extendedand swinging it around to HIT another boat might be bad <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
but then if you hit the other boat you get penalized for not avoiding a collision, right?
those rules quizes screw with my brain.

Would a tri sail with its bow sprit extended going to weather? I think that wont hold any room or spot in a hearing. Now the whole tiller thing, if the conditions require you to trap out, which will require you to have your tiller extended then that is normal position. If the conditions are flat, and you are not trapped out, you have no need to have your tiller extended and you are fully responsible for what your tiller hits.

In most retractable sprit boat classes, there is a class rule that the sprit must be retracted within so far of leaving a downwind mark and can only come out so far within an upwind mark. Most also deal with the overlap issues.

I apologise for digging this thread up out of the back pages of the forum, but reading the above statement made me want to comment :
While I appreciate that you don`t want to be the most unpopular guy in the pub after racing, and while protesting a top-runner in the fleet while you are mid-fleet or back of fleet seems inappropriate, please bear in mind that YOU are responsible for the attitude of the rule-breakers in the fleet, who are usually also the top of the fleet sailors, quite often (not always). By hailing your intent to protest and then not carrying it out you are allowing them to call your bluff - next time they will roll over you, break a rule and just carry on sailing. And they will do it to others UNTIL they are DSQ`ed from a race or two.
I recall two separate incidents : Hobie African Champs in which the World Champ started on Port and forced over 30 competitors to crash-tack to avoid hitting him, he did no penalty after the chaos he created, and was first to the weather mark. In my opinion, he should have done 30x 360 turns or been DSQ`ed, but of course no-one protested.
In another incident I was in a line of starboard boats all on lay-line for the weather mark, a port boat came zig-zagging through forcing the boat below me to bear away violently to avoid hitting him, and he then had to bear away to avoid hitting me. Of course in the bear-away he powered up and banged my port rudder, luckily with only minor damage. To his complete amazement I protested him, he did no penalty so I carried out the protest and he was DSQed.
He approached me afterwards, shocked that I had protested, since we were not even sailing the same class of boat, so my protest was not to gain a position in the fleet or anything.
My response was that you can`t go bashing your way around the fleet and do no penalty, even if it is part of "the H---- way of life".
I think that there exists this culture that folks will only protest if they have something to gain, which is wrong. If someone infringes a rule and comes last in the race, he should still face a protest hearing so that he can learn from his mistakes, or he may never know he is making them. My friend above sincerely didn`t know or refused to believe that other boats on the course not in his class also had right of way.
So if you break a rule and I`m near, please do a turn, it will avoid the waste of valuable drinking time after the race.

You're right, Steve, on many levels.

Well said. The preamble to the rules states "Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce". I think many people miss those last two words.

I've heard lots of complaints about sailors not following the rules - from sailors unwilling to enforce them. It should be quite simple: if you foul someone, take a penalty. If someone fouls you, protest.

There seems to be great reluctance to protest, and I suspect it's partly because people view it as an accusation of cheating. Nobody wants to ruin their friendships that way. Also, most people don't want a reputation as a "sea-lawyer". And, the on-shore protest procedure is a PITA.

Now, much of the time, it makes sense to let an infraction slide, but not if you're going to complain about it later.

And yes, the rules apply between all boats on the course, regardless of what fleet they're in. I assert my right-of-way when I have it, and I give way when I don't. It doesn't matter if the other boat is a H-16, F-18, N-20, Tornado, Playstation, or even an Optimist.

Regards,
Eric