New A-class with a radical bow shape

I am no expert on the A-class but I haven't seen a bow shaped like this before.
[img]http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15049&d=1185441096[/img] [img]http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14632&d=1183894884[/img]

see http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18037&page=2 for more details.

Gareth

I hope that is not the future - It looks like a suppository.

Return of the SIZZLER!

Is made of aluminium?

I believe that is a custom A being built for a few people by John Lindal in (MI?). One of the guys here is getting one. I will post some pics when I see it.

IT does look like a sizzler!

Is it John or or his son, Ian. Last time I saw Ian, he was talking about building a A-Cat.

It is being built by both John and Ian Lindal. The first one is on the water now and the second should be this weekend. The construction is carbon/foam/carbon.

I'll give it another 5 years till they chop off the front 0.49 mtr altogether and make it a 16 footer ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


Wouter

I shared the photos with Pete Melvin. His reply was, "The Penetrator!"

I have often wondered why cat designers have not payed more attention to Dolphins in their design ideas. These animals must have wonderful hydrodynamic shape. I have sailed at ten knotts and had a dolphin pacing me a metre off my bow for several ks and not even look like its tail is moving. Their energy to speed level is legendry. I have thought the Flyer is almost there but make the beak shape low and still the rising hull. I also think a more radical attitude to the rear of the boat being a planing surface is important.
As to looks. ?????

Dolphins also speed most of their life UNDER the watersurface, instead of on the watersurface as sailboats do.

Otherwise surface ships would look like submarines do and they don't.




He was riding the pressure zone of your bow wave. In effect, the portion of water directly in front of your boat moves forward with almost the same speed as the hull. The dolphin "feels" like he is just hovering in his particular volume of water while he and the volume of water are pushed along by the boats hull. Dolphin cover many many many nautical miles like in front of oceans freighters, with a minimum in effort..

Wouter

Yeah, dolphins don't have to worry about losing energy by creating waves.

Plus I've also heard a rumour that they ooze a liquid out of their skin that reduces their skin friction. Let's see if the A-classes will try that!

I'd like to know the theory behind that bow design...it could be a nightmare to sail downwind in a blow without any reserve bouyancy! But it could reduce the windage upwind to the point that it adds up to a positive advantage.

In general, dolphins aren't designed to swim on the surface of the water in displacement mode either.

And....they are very difficult to steer..........

You are right, we shouln't pay any attention to nature but do you know what. The latest A shapes are a lot closer to a dolphin in shape than a brick. Wave piercing is that...not wave riding. The latest a shape has a positive boyancy attitude low down in the shape. It is down low and already working rather than old shapes that put more boyancy in when it was too late and created more hobihorsing and pitch-poling. So, the boyancy is already working and the top of the boat is shaped like a dolphin....rounded to help shed water. Flat deck of Tornadoes and whatever...flat....NOT like a dolphin. Of course it is dreadful to sail down wind....that is why As don't sail downwind.....could do to remember that to beat an A downwind a spinny is needed...providing lift for the bows.....But the A copes without that lift.....is there a pattern here?....
Maybe we should look at bird wings for sail development...oh, no, that's already been done...nature wrong again.

Wouter this is of course correct but the jury is out on them and their energy to power ratio. No clear understanding is in on how they turn the energy expended into to speed created. While yes they ride at my bows we are talking a 14 or 16 foot boat and a 600lb 14 foot animal....my crappy little boat just isn't providing that much push....not to talk about the other three or ten around the boat. what's driving them?

It looks like the opposite of the Blade, perhaps a Butter Knife, or a Spatula.....

It's too light. Even with the increased rigging you would need 30-60 Lbs ballast.

Seriously, look at the drawing comparing it to the Flyer. That is a very small hull volume. I am not sure you could make that concept work as an F16. After you scaled it down to 16 ft, made the hulls bigger to accomodate the increased platform and crew weight, accomodated the different center of force for the jib and spin,...... it would be a different boat. Maybe a lower volume Blade.

I seem to remember a brief conversation with Lindahl and I thought he mentioned that Richard Roake had a major hand in the design. Eg... Super Lube back in the unlimited worrell 1000 days... the planing catamran hull that Randy Smythe sailed.

I could be complete wrong about this one though... would love to see some close up pictures.

The flyer hulls' take along time to adjust your down wind sailing style to.... Those things look like you are trying to sail a moth !

Every sensible racing yacht looks more like a dolphin than a brick...It doesn't look that much like a dolphin anyway, I've never seen one with a sharp pointy head.

Nature has other things to contend with that also influence its design, like catching food. Not every aspect of nature can be applied to making boats go faster. Do you see dolphin nose like appendages on the front of keels? No, because it is inefficient for racing yachts, but very good for dolphins that need to catch food.

I'm all for reverse engineering nature, but common sense should be incorporated into the design process.

My personal opinion is that it could be a great light weather boat in the hands of a skilled skipper. Probably will be a handful off the wind in a blow and waves, because it has little reserve bouyancy in the bow.

1) Does anyone have pictures and lines from Super Lube that you could post here?

2) There should be a report from Ian later in the day as to how the new boat faired at Silver Lake.

There was a discussion on the 21 Roake design some time ago. A quick search here lead to this picture. Search for Roake and you'll find the tread easily.

http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/76764-roake.jpg

Which Superlube would you like, Mama Bear or Papa Bear?

I have heard that Ben Hall and Peter Cogan are also launching a new A-Class about now. Is it as radical as this one? and who designed it?. Has anyone seen it yet ?

I was talking with Fred Smith the other day who is finishing the second LR2 right now. It should be out of the paint shop today and on the water soon. He did state during that conversation that Ben Hall also had a new A on the way and expected it to be on the water over the next couple of weeks. That should make it to be this week. Fred knows who designed it. Martin Fischer is one possibility since rumor has it that he has one on the way.

Hi David,

what type was the larger cat hunting the Roark 21 ?

I'm thinking Formula 40.

I've seen pics, its a nice design. Peter Cogan designed it and Vectorworks built the forms. They've got at least two boats on the water. Early reports are positive. I havent seen it live.

Bill

Bill,

If you have those pictures, could you post them for all of us to see. It would be interesting to see his design compared to Ian's boat.

I love Papa Bear!
Daddy, Daddy, can I have one of those!?

I am not keen on the single hyking extension those two boys are out on......unless the crew was really cute.

If I remember correctly, randy's report at the end of the Worrel that year was that the hiking rack worked out great. Also it was banned the next year.

But what a bitch when the rudder kicks up from a big jelly / fish / shark / ray. That's a long way to go get that thing back down again.

But what a bitch when the rudder kicks up from a big jelly / fish / shark / ray. That's a long way to go get that thing back down again. [/quote]

I believe I heard that those racks saved the boat after Randy & Kevin hit a shark that pushed a centerboard back 12" thru the hull...they only finished the leg by sitting on the leeward rack to keep the flooded hull above the water till they could finish the leg

found this on boatdesign.net, nice shots and video of the LR2 sailing
http://sl-acat.blogspot.com/

Oh man, nice blog! Why haven't we known about this before now?

"I am not keen on the single hyking extension those two boys are out on......unless the crew was really cute. "


Hm, interesting!

Do you think this was the real reason why it was banned the next year? In an effort for safer sailing? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No, I think that it was banned because randy and crew were relaxed, comfortable and dry at the end of the race according to the post race report. It was felt that they had an unfair advantage using the hiking rack.

getting back to the original subject, has anyone further news of the boat? and or pic's of Ben & Peters new boat?
also, have the 2 new boats raced against each other or other noteworthy benchmarks that would give us an indication of how well they are performing?

I have asked anyone if they have pictures of Ben's new boat, but have not seen one yet. I will be going to Bristol next week and if the boat is there, I will take pics and post them. I do not think that the 2 boats have met yet, but they will at least meet at the Worlds if not sooner. There are also at least 2 more new A's in the works. Marstrom has one coming out soon, I have heard that at least the prototype is on the water. Martin fischer also has a new A in the pipeline. So it will be interesting in the near future to see which designs come to the front of the fleet. With all of this going on, it is best to state now the the rig and sails are probably as important as the design itself.

Thanks very much, Im really looking forward to seeing what the differences are

The second LR2 hits the water this weekend. Two boat tuning begins. A third boat is in the works and possibly a fourth by the worlds. Anyone interested should contact Ian Lindahl at Ian Lindahl @ [email]ian_lindahl@yahoo.com.[/email] The LR2 is currently configured to best handle as sailor in the 75kg weight range. They are currently looking at a larger volume LR2 for sailors in the 90kg-120kg weight range. It is on the designers board right now. I will post something more as the information comes forward. It also seems that the platform can be designed for a choice of rigs and beams.

Tom, did you manage to get any pic's?

I did get some pictures and will go through them tommorow and post them here. There is a link earlier in this thread to boatdesign.net with some of the current pictures with Ian on the boat.

I wonder what the point of leaving the beams proud of the hulls is? It seems that they would add drag when a wave hit them.

http://sl-acat.blogspot.com/

Im no designer but after looking at the blog pictures and the narrowness at the top of the hull, I think common sense would dictate that you extended it a piece so the beam had something to sit on. Its also probably shorter than other hull beams as well and therefore lighter. The fairing looks like it will shed a good bit of the wave as well.

This is the most recent posting on the boatdesign.net thread about the LR2 and I think that it will tell you more about the hull shape then I could.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18037&goto=newpost

Some shoreside pix of Ian Lindahl and the new creature at Silver Lake Invitational- Michigan.

did you mean to attach some pics with this post ?
also
Windswept, thought you were going to post some pics of Ben's boat?

My camrera crashed, will probably get some new ones on Tuesday.

New update spotted at
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18037&page=5

Hmm- Trying to post the pix again.

Try another

My new 6.1m by the same designers, same bow, and hopefully a lot faster, see more pictures on the formula 20 forum
Aerynt

To the people recently mocking me for suggesting to go to an even more dolphin like shape.........your crow is ready.

Lets not loose sight of the fact that at this time this design is only a bunch of pixels on a computer screen. It hasn't proven itself in anyway.

From the mistakes and lessons-learned in the F16 class I predict this design will be a right dog to sail in any conditions beyond light winds and flat water.

Be careful that the crow won't find its way onto your plate.

Wouter

Pictures look good. Has the the A cat been tried against any other boats to see performance against them?

Doug

Not new. See the pictures of a 12 year old trimaran.



Each float has a volume equivalent to 110% of total weight, so it really pierces waves at low speed. At high speed the bow is lifted by the foils.

I am happy with the situation as it stands Wouter. Remember, I was only saying it was a good thing to try in the persuit of performance. Not that is would be a sure fire winner........just that nature has things to teach us. If there is something I see as a stand out DF I do not like it is how very low the rear beam is in relation to sea surface.
I include a photo of a German design looking remarkably like a tern.
What is it said about contempt before investigation??

Hey, I'm as interested to see the results of this experiment like anyone else. If somebody is prepared to spend money on this design to have it build and tested then the more respect to them. But this stance still doesn't mean that I expect it too succeed. Compare it to a night at the Casino. All very interesting and enjoyable but I'm not desillusioned enough to expect to break the house even when there is a very small chance that that may happen.

If nature teaches us some things then it is that sailing on the water surface is NOT efficient. Afterall how many animals do this ? Even animals that reside on the watersurface alot. Like ducks, swans or pinguins take to the air or dive under water when fleeing or looking to get somewhere fast.

Wouter

Luiz,

For example is not really well developped. Afterall the centrehull is still very much a conventional shape. If that had been of the same shape as the floats then you example would have been a proper one in relation to this new cat design.

Wouter

the last people who were knocking the dolphin idea said it was stupid because dolphins went through the water not over it.............just sounds like white noise to me.

Warbird,

Are you really that "intellectually challenged" or only acting like it ?

Wouter

Yes. Also, the float volume is placed high in the bow, so it looks like the new shapes but differs in one relevant feature.

On the other hand, when it flies the mainhull the lee float behaviour becomes dominant.

I guess the similitude would be the relatively low volume float. How does float volume/total displacement ratio in the new A Cats and F16s compare to that tri's 110%?

That or rather the lift provided by its bruce foil ?

Wouter

I think it should be both: the bruce foil is supposed to lift 50% of total weight. That would leave 60% of the float volume over the waterline and 50% under. I'll let you know after a real world test.

So has the A cat shown in pictures been tested against other boats? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Doug

Don't be like that Wouter, we're only having fun. I can imagine it is tough to live with a huge ego and low self-esteem but an abusive outburst never really brings satisfaction in the long term.
Try sitting quietly with yourself (no touching), breath deeply and paint your boat a less lurid colour and maybe you won't feel such a desperate need to be right all of the time.

I refer you back to my earlier comment.

Hi Doug, Im the designer and yes it has, but less exhaustively than one could have hoped for so far. It would appear that the boat is moderately faster and sails higher than Flyers etc in all windspeeds, down hill in any wind, it kills everything. This last weekend it was out in 25-30 knots all day with 10-15 gusts and it never put the bow down more than 150mm at any speed in any gust. That said, we are still learning to sail it, the windward case being the most challenging and we are still a ways short of what we think it should do.
Have attached a couple of pics from GPS action replays of the Velocitek data to show what it does in 9.4 knots, will post some 30 knot stuff in the not too distant future
RG

uphill 101m average speed in 9.4 knots

Do you have a website with anymore info and a US price?

Doug

Beautiful lines. Takes the wave piercing concept to the next logical step. How about some drawings head on and broad side profile?

Regards,
Bob

I have to say that the bow shape is slowly growing on me...although it still looks "retro" for some reason.

Don't worry what it looks like,its a fast shape and handles a chop really well.

Fred A class cat

Wouter, I refer you to early data and heresay about performance against Flyers........would sir like pie or roast crow?

Like a fungus. I think the reason it looks retro is because it looks like the aluminum Sizzler 16 catamaran featured in Jaws 2.

Are you now claiming the Flyer hulls look like dolphins as well ?

Wouter

The best test will be for Ian to head to Bristol and test the boat against benchmark A-Class sailors like Ben Hall, Lars Guck, and Phil Kinder. Until he does that, any claims on performance are pure speculation. I would bet that Ian is simply a better A-Class sailor than the sailors he has been sailing against so even if the boat's performance is equivalent to a Flyer or something else current, it will look faster due to the sailor's ability.

The boat is quite interesting. The hulls look like missles!

Bob Hodges
A2 USA 230

Looks like a drop tank off of fighter aircraft.

Bob, I agree that its real performance won't be known till then either, I believe that will happen when everyone goes to the Lake Hopatcong Regatta Sept 29th
RG

Wake up Wouter, the posts after your "intellectually challenged" comment talk about the boat you say will be a dog beating a Flyer up wind and thrashing all-comers downwind. Read it clearly then get back to me with your order... of crow that is.
I am saying it is going even more like a dolphin shape than a Flyer. But yes, now that you mention it the Flyer is a lot more dolphin like in shape than the old Taipan style A.

Of course it could be argued that this new boat looks more like a sepository than a dolphin and maybe we should look to a different object of nature for design ideas. : )

Well call me sassafras. That would be why it looks retro. I do say, however, that it appears that the hull volume is placed a bit differently and undoubtedly for the better in the new A.




PS - I'm still glad I'm blocking Wouter. Judging from the responses, he seems to be back in old form.

Doug, there is no website and for prices write to jlindahl_lcd@yahoo.com
RG

Sorry Bob, but we don't intend to ever publish profiles or sections. Instead I have attached a pic of Fred Smiths LR2 on it's first sail.

Wouter,
Do you think before you make coments like this????

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Wouter. Arrogance is not a very endearing quality, if we all had the same views and opinions these forums would be insanely boring. Agree to disagree and skip the insults.

D

But if nature is any guide and Dolphin like shapes are superior, wouldn't it then be better to fit the rudders to the stern in a horizontal manner, just like the tails of dolphins ?

Maybe somebody should try to design a hull that looks like a salt water crockodile ?

All very interesting !

Wouter

A comparison is made between this A-cat and the flyer hulls.

Go to : http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18037&page=2

Wouter

Nature should not be a guide. The bit we stick up into the air operates better the more it is like a wing..that would be a BIRDS wing.
Crazy to think that fish or dolphins would have anything to teach us about performance in and on water.
Check the pectoral fins on this boat and the wings!
If a Dolphin did not have pec fins maybe it would not corner so well with just its tail Wouter.
My ideas are based on being open minded and thinking outside the circle. When we don't do that all we can do to upgrade is work with what we have.
So let's just paint the inside of the cave white and live like that.

This "discussion" did not start with a comparison between wings and sails, it was specific about hulls looking more and more like dolphins, which operate under the water and boats which work on the water surface.

So it was pointed out that logically the supposed benefits of a dolphin shaped hull, for the soul reason that it is dolphin shaped, are incorrect. The evolution of dolphins hasn't required them to operate fast on the waters surface.

Now, if you want to have a real debate about the benefits of a hull shaped like it is, you should consider the aerodynamic benefits of such a hull rather than the perceived/marketed hydrodynamic benefits.

It is very clear that it should have less aerodynamic drag than the existing A-class hulls because of its shape. Has anyone else noticed the chamfers America's Cup Class boats have around the deck edge forward of the mast? May I suggest this is for aerodynamic reasons, particular when considering the influence on the lower sections of the jib.

Also, I noticed on the boat design forum (which I haven't read completely) that the LCB (Longitudinal Centre of Bouyancy) of this LR2 A-Class has been moved forward considerably compared with the Flyer. This may also indicate that the LCF (Longitudinal Centre of Flotation, yes it is different to the LCB) has been moved forward considerably, which is a very easy way to improve the forward pitch handling characteristics of a hull, certainly much easier than designing effective wave piercing bows for a sailing yacht.

A wise man once said..."i think wave piercing is fine if you are being propelled by something 1m under the waterline, not 4 m above it."

All I'm saying is that the other benefits of a "wave-piercing" shaped hull shouldn't be overlooked.

Go to Bristol if possible if you want a real barometer on the boat's performance. Lake Hopatcong will be too shifty to make any conclusions about boatspeed differences.

Something must be different about the way I sail. Out at sea in 15 knots and above my boat...the lee boat spends easily as much time in the water as on it.
My cat is actually almost never truely "on" the water. My runnabout is a different story. It is often "on" the water.
I include an image of a fast cat that is not "on" the water.
Before I am told that diving the bow is not the objective, it is a fact and once into the water a dolphin like profile might be exactly what is needed to right the problem.
I stand by my reasoning.

Great post Ncik !

Good point about the LCB and LCF.

I wonder what the result of that will be. In the extreme case such a hull will not dip its bows but rather lift or drag its sterns. Possibly combined with an increased bow wave system.

The bouyancy distribution drawings did indeed clearify some points very well.

Wouter

Wouter & Ncik...just moving LCB & LCF too much opens a can of other worms and it's not the the answer, maybe a partial answer yes, but you need to address a whole host of other things also. The point was not to lift the bows but to keep them as level as possible at all times, even in some moderately large waves...the power is only on if the mast is stationary.
Warbird....much as I like the dolphin likeness comments, I can promise you I never once considered them when designing the boat. I took the trouble to find the most anatomically correct model of a dolphin I could and then sectioned it....and the sections don't look like anything I'd recognise as efficient at high Rn, but then again Im sure we don't understand nature all that well just yet. (see attached pics)
RG

more dolphins

3rd one

last one

I am sorry to post this as a mere "Non-benchmark" A-cat sailor, but I spent actual 5 days on the water tuning and testing against this new design. There were 2 sessions concluding last Monday, in all kinds of Michigan conditions. IMHO, Ian Lindahl was very fast vs a well-sailed Flyer, a well-sailed Auscat, all with new Glaser sails, and my XJ. Its downwind speed was even more impressive, as Ian was clearly fastest- as he smiled-- and went right on by.

Another plus is that it doesn't want to pitchpole. IF personal observation means anything on this forum, I saw with my actual eyes Ian's jibe in heavy air nearby when his traveller line tangled on something (he said): the cat stood on its nose for maybe 7 seconds then came back down and continued at speed. I say that the whaleback, no-deck concept works. Note that there were successful whaleback freighters on the Great Lakes 100 years ago.
Signed, Non-Bristol sailor.

Nothing against the design or anyones relative sailing ability as I have not seen 1 in head to head action, but Ian is a good sailor, and the thing still looks like a suppository.

Its UGLY with a capital U.

I've only met Ian once and have a shoddy memory - but isn't he larger than the "average" A sailor? Would that reflect how well this design carries weight?

First of all, the boat was designed for Ian and Fred Smith. Second, it may be ugly to some and great to others, but the point of the project was to produce a fast, well built A at a reasonable price point. While the testing is still continuing, the early results look good.

Lovely dolphin images and I take your comment about not using dolphins as a starting point. I would be interested to see a front profile.
I regret the fact that people feel the need to tell you how ugly your boat is. It is not a style my likes warm to but I have found in life that sometimes it takes time to understand the beauty of different and new things.
Go well with your work.

Is this boat going to be sailed at the Worlds in November down in the FL Keys? That would be the ultimate benchmark.

Still according to the info posted, seems like a fast design with a good nut on the tiller.

Good luck.

Robi,

RG and Ian both have stated that 2 boats will be at the worlds in November earlier in this thread. Ian Lindahl and Fred Smith both have LR2's on the water and have been testing against each other, dave Carlson, Fred eaton and a couple of other A-cat sailors. They hope to have the third boat ready for the worlds as well. I do not know how far along #3 is though.

Boats 3 & 4 will be started shortly
The video link is Ian out practicing today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRdBQY8YHj0
RG

Are any of them going to be the design #2 for the bigger sailors?

Doug

Doug, #3 will be the same as the previous 2, but #4 could be either hull depending on who buys it.
Another video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChjMGsAWQCk
RG

RG,

It would be great to see a closer and clearer look at what is happening with the wake, wave, q-wave patterns as they leave the hulls.

Tom, these are the only 2 that are anywhere to close by the camera. There is not much you can see from these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4riWfj5u2o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECJWys1ZCvE
RG

All the video's so far are :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4riWfj5u2o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECJWys1ZCvE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChjMGsAWQCk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRdBQY8YHj0


In one you can just see the water coming over the bow in one of these video's but this is mostly because the resolution is so poor. Even the bow and sterns waves are obscured by the poor resolution.

On thing that does strike me in these video's are the laboratory like conditions on this pond. Winds are 6 to 8 knots at least as the skipper can be seen to lift the hull while trapping but the water looks as flat as a pancake. When you look on the inside of the leeward hull you can see how small the chop really is, my guess about 4 inches. It is difficult to tell what the wind is doing.

Basically it is hard to tell anything from these video's, probably intentionally.

If the designers are playing around with pressure distribution along the waterline length of the hulls, much like the designers of larger freighters did with the bulb keels, then I would expect this design to have sweet spots and not-so-sweet spots. Basically the pressures along the hull vary with different boat speeds, crew weights and conditions (weather and water surface).

If they can pull it off to have a hull that manages to minimize to wave system over a wide range of conditions and crew weights then they will have achieved something remarkable. The big word here is of course "if".

I still would like to see this hull in some real chop.

Wouter

Wouter, look at
http://boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15093&d=1185616592
http://boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15092&d=1185616592
http://boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15091&d=1185616592

not a hydro expert, but those shots look like very light air and a huge bow wave for the speed, Aerynt observed in the F20 forum, the bow wave is quite different, so how do you get from that to zero bow wave at other speeds? seems a bit backwards to me, but then its hard to ignore how clean it looks on the water otherwise (the videos's).
Also noted in an earlier post that they thought the optimum crew position was further aft than shown in most shots, seems they don't move from upwind to downwind.
Whats hard to ignore is that the mast seems to be stationary in any of the video's, have never seen that before.
And last of all, who the hell is Retired Geek ?

I don't know, I haven't done in depth analysis of the pressure (wave) situation around an A-cat hull.

Mostly because I think that the drag from the wave system is far smaller then some other components and therefor it is most smart to try to optimize these either components first. Afterall most my experience comes from F18's and F16's. Here rig development is still a major component; notice the difference between the Ullman and Glaser F16 suit of sails. The A's may already have exhausted this avenue.

I do know however that a huge bow wave can have at least two causes. One is high speed the other is a blunt entry at the bow. I can't tell from a still photograph which one is too blame.



That is one reason why I like to see some video in real chop. It is my opinion that the A-cat is relatively long for its width and overall weight. In flat water you can indeed move the bouyancy all down to the waterline and to the front and thus really cut down on the bows dipping in. I'm not saying that this is what they have done but if someone were to do this then it will work great in flat water, but in chop it will oscillate very strongly as so much bouyancy is in the bow at such a large leverage to the centre of rotation/weight.

I'm a firm believer that what is claimed can be achieved for a narrow set of conditions, but the real trick on the race course is to have a design that goes sufficiently well in a range of different conditions. Otherwise you've designed yourself a single gear race car. I'm not saying that the guys with the LR project did this, but without seeing shots and video spanning a range of conditions we won't know what they have achieved.

I think retired Geek is either Ian Lindahl himself or that other guy who is involved, can't remember his name.

It just occured to me that the same stability of the rig can also be achieved by a set of carefully trimmed T-foils on the rudders. It is because of the A-cat class rules do not allow such T-foils that the development is now geared towards changes in the hulls design to further reduce pitching of the rig. As such an interesting question arises. Is this development really a step forward or just a whole lot of effort because the class rules prohibit an easier and cheaper solution. Compare this situation to that which led to the yacht rigs with a very large Genua sail and a small triangular mainsail. This setup was not at all an efficient use of total sailarea but rather it was the most efficient use of the sailarea given a handicap rule set with an obvious oversight coded into it. Explanation, the overlapping area of the Genua was not considered efficient in the rules and was completely disgarded from the total.

It will be sad day when some enthousiast goes against the rules of the A-cat class and puts T-foils on and just sails along side this new development like a mirror image.

Wouter

[quote
Tom, these are the only 2 that are anywhere to close by the camera. There is not much you can see from these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4riWfj5u2o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECJWys1ZCvE
RG [/quote]

RG,

Thanks. The boat still looks great. I am waiting to hear from Fred this weekend on how he likes his new LR2. I have his Boyer MKIV. It is sailing well, but sometime at the beginning of the year, I will contact Ian about the larger format hulls.

[quote And last of all, who the hell is Retired Geek ? [/quote]

RG is the boat's designer. Maybe he will share his name, but so far in all of the posts, he has not, so I will not out it.

There are a few foiling A's out there right now. Not class legal, but sailed nonetheless as experiments. I know that some in the Bristol fleet have been playing with foils and canted daggerboards. I do not know though how serious the development is. Fred Eaton's foiling C-Class cat will make an apperance at the ICCC in Toronto this month. Team Inviticus is also building a foiling C to compete. I do not know weather or not the foiling C will race in the series, but I assume that it will.

Wouter, here are a couple of pics that show the waterline in slightly choppy water, sorry but I don't have anything in huge chop, although the boat has sailed in that kind of water and Im told its still not pitching.
As for the bow wave, yes its there when going slow but it disappears after the boat gets past about 3-4 knots and you never see it again.
RG

another pic

3rd pic

last pic, sorry some are blurry, but they were cropped from larger pics

oops, missed that one

Tom, I talked to Fred earlier in the week, he seems happy enough with the boat and likes the performance in a chop, but he has a ways to go yet to be as fast as Ian downwind yet, but we'll work on helping him set it up right so he's at the same pace.
RG

BTW, the pitch up in the first pic of the 4 above is from quickly rounding up in a puff, we get a similar but slightly different situation happening when the boat accelerates also, but in both cases its just one cycle and then it stays level again.
RG

pic 2 from Wout is interesting to me because of the daggerboard.......

I also like the tiny sterns.

Where is the daggerboard, is it tiny?

Vernon:

Look REAL close and you can see it at bottom of hull. Look by his feet in one of the pics.

Doug

I was looking at some of the pictures & video again and noted that the boat doesn't appear to upset the local wave pattern (as in chop), do other boats do this also? makes it look like its working in isolation of the environment
Q

Doesn't happen in larger waves either
RG

this tends to happen to all cats, but more so on conventional hulls....as the water piles up on the inside of the hull=more volume=more motion. an example is

RG

In the pictures I only see small wind induced wavelets.

I no see no basic chop there of the kind you get from passing powerboats or when the wind has been blowing on the other side of the (large) lake for a while.

I would call this flat water. Sorry

The picture of that FX-one is showing some chop (the litte white specs in the background), the pics of the LR2 don't.

Wouter

RG,

Fred should come up to speed pretty quickly having been around these boats since 1969. One of the last of the early ones in the class. If your hull shape does eliminate some of the drag & turbulence from boat generated waves, it should definately show up on the performance/speed end.

Here is a good picture of the second LR2, Fred's new boat.

And that there is a RacerX Main. NICE!

Yes -It is a racer X sail

Fred

Ian is very fast with this new design in big chop too. I didn't see it pitching or throwing waves. Remember- I have actually seen this boat sailing in pretty much all conditions including 22+. Some say ugly? Whaaa? You guys have got to be kidding. "Form follows Function" I first heard in art class some years ago: What we have here is its Epidome. By golly, that would be a good name too.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Those are very small rudders and centreboards! Obviously more thought has gone into this design than just the radical hulls!

Why does this make me envision Bob?

dacarls, thanks for the support as being in NZ Im a little remote from what happens in Michigan, although Im sure Ian and John give me accurate reports :-)which I try hard to share openly within the bounds of what I want to share here.
As for Epidome....gonna have to think on that....or you can try and sell it to Ian <grin>
RG

Ncik....we modeled just about everything we could in an effort to understand the dynamics....is more work than I care to think about right now, but the benefits of it appear to be showing bit by bit as we discover how to sail it. An example would be that we just found how to raise the windward 500m average VMG by over 2 knots this week and Im pretty sure we are not done yet.
RG

What I want to know now that we have some saying it is fast as well as looking fast is how RG made it so? Is one thing to call it a wave piercer, but what have they done to make it so clearly efficient? how are we to understand what the improvement is if we can't say what has made the differences? Between everyone here, there should be some who can give us some insight into whats been achieved here and how, no ? Doesn't do us much good if we can't understand it all other than to say it's fast
Q

Who is to say that the performance improvement (if achieved at all) was the result of the hulls ?

I see more then a few things on this design that have been changed. Extremely narrow daggerboards and rudders is one example.

Basically, what we have now are striking claims of improvements but hardly any info/proof to do a thorough investigation of the situation.

Personally I think an improvement of 2 knots on the upwind VMG to be suspiciously large. That is a 20% improvement and I find that very hard to attribute that to the hulls, knowing that wave-making drag is only some 10% of the overall drag. Additionally, considering the state of performance of modern A-cats I think any sudden 20% improvement claim to beyond believe.

I think it took the combined effort of all the A-cat designers and 30 years to make the modern A-cat less then 20% faster then the uni-corn (predecessor of A-cats) and that included making the sail area larger and the boat lighter.

Sorry guys, what you guys doing is very interesting but I need much more convincing.

Wouter

Wouter, while Im only a merchant banker with a strong interest in sailing, I do however spend most of my time financing offshore oil related projects, and quite often see cutting edge R&D that shows 20-40% gains that are fluid based gains, hence the questions. As a lay observer and not a designer, I have yet to see another cat that has what the LR2 has appeared to achieve and has people other than the designer willing to back it, from my perspective, its a rather bankable assumption (forgive the pun)
In my line of work, I question all the time in order to understand and reduce the risk, so Wouter, backing it by precedent is just making noise with no real attempt to justify any real knowledge, you either know or guess at the gain or you absolutely dispprove it with fact, so far I have seen neither argument here.
Q

also forgot to mention the best polar showed approx 9 knot vmg, +2 =11, that to me is interesting territory
Q

Let me put the problem in financial terms for you.

How can you achieve a cost reduction of say 20 euro's when the total initial costs were only 10 euro's to begin with ?

With respect to my supplied data :

The 10 % wave-making drag quote comes of the C-class miss Nylex research article. This component will be lower for our soft sail boats as Miss Nylex had a much more efficient solid wing sail. Sail induced drag is actually the largest single drag component in the overall picture. By having less of it you lower the total drag and thus relatively increase the importance of the smaller components.

With respect to offshore oil experience. We are designing sailboats here not pipelines.
In the latter fluid behaviour is nearly 100% of the whole proces. With sailboats (hulls) it is only 5-15% of the whole picture.

Wouter

(I'm a combined Mechanical/Maritime engineer, in Holland these two programs are combined at the university level)

Well now one of the points of this build was to reduce the overall cost of a competitive A-Class boat. In US dollars a new A is @ $30,000 Marstrom, $26,500 Geltek Flyer, $24,500 M&M A3, 25,000 Bimare XJ, $23,500 The Tool, $26,000 Scheurer G5 and the LR2 20,000-21,000 depending up the rig. This does not state that the final cost of the boat will not end up more than that, it just was one of the initial goals. As to final pricing that would come from John and Ian Lindahl. Now that they have 2 boats completed and the third on the way, I think they have worked out the labor and material costs so as to be able to know what the price point needs to be to remain viable.

As to performance, the boat has so far sailed well. The learning curve has been steep, but I think the next regatta at Lake Hoptacong on 9-28/9-29 will allow the boat to sail against around 40 other A's. This should be an event where the boat can begin to show what it has and can do. I believe that a strong contingent from the Bristol fleet will be there as well.

Why don't I add this to the thread as well!

Peter Cogan designed a new A cat. It is a very nice looking evolution of the current theme, IE flyer/XJ/A2



Ben has one of the first two built, to my knowledge. Vectorworks built the hulls and molds for Peter.



I am not privy to the plans for this boat but would expect it to be offered for sale by someone.



Ben has also built a wing sail. Doesn’t seem real practical, we’ll have to see where it goes. I don’t think anyone else is interested in building one. I can’t see Ben letting it kill the class he has supported for so long.

Yes. but Wouter has a keen eye as well as you....and he sees what other do not and says it will be a dog in anyting but flat water.
I can make no conclusions as Wouter has also pointed out my mental retardation which stops me from making a rational judgement.
Do tell us more about why it will be such a dog in the rough Wout, I am hanging on every word....or is it just that the small rudder and daggers make a boat fast in chop?
Small words for me please Wouter as I am trying to keep up.

All my comments made at the time of writing are based on the understanding of the LR2 that I have at that time. As we all know, information is dripping out continiously and as such my understanding of it develops with it. However up till now not much info has been forth coming; so my understanding may well be strenious.

But to answer your questions Warbird.



At that time of commenting I didn't see anything, mostly I missed bow height. What I've learned from sailing other catamaran designs is that a low bow height makes sailing in rough watersurface conditions challenging. With rough I mean waves combined with a chop on top. Even with the very rounded decks on the F16's we found that it is best to not have water hit the decks. When it does a few things start happening that will hold you back. Rounded decks are indeed much better then the square decks of older designs like the Prindle 19 and Hobie Tiger but the improvements only go so far.

If this lowering of the decks coincided with a reduction in bow bouyancy then the result can be worse still, think of the Bim 18HT in rough conditions. Nobody likes the design there.

The A's are increasingly cutting away their bows. All other high performance (development) boats that sail often in rough conditions like the F18 and F16's are going exactly the opposite direction. They are increasing the bow height (although not really adding volume there). I find it very interesting that the two designs go directly opposing routes. On the other hand it has become a rare sight to see A-cats along the coastline were I sail.

So what goes wrong with low bow on other designs ?

Running starts running up the decks at speed and hits the beams. When the beams are not well faired into the hulls then this will send a thud through the whole craft and may even initiate a dive upwind. I see the LR2 has the beams actually sticking out the sides of the hulls. The modern bows resist pitching well as long as part of the bow is above the waterline. It feel feel firm in gusts and when riding down waves. But as soon as the waterline moves past the deck the feel of firmness deteriorates. It is still much better then the older squared deck hulls but there is a change of feel nevertheless. When they are in it becomes noticeably easier to push them in further. I put this down to the creation of a downforce on the bows because the water it hitting the decks from above and because of the total lifting (displacement) forces can not increase beyond their max value; something that was happening when the decks were still above water. Pretty much at first you experience a hull that shows high resistance to INCREASING the pitch angle followed by a bow that suddenly shows less resistance to INCREASING the pitch angle further. Many crews, among which myself, don't consider this a nice behaviour. Especially in rough conditions it may be difficult to predict/know exactly where this transition point is. The solution is as discribed earlier, increase bow height so this transition happens at much larger pitch angles, hopefully to a level hardly ever encountered. The above experience is reflected in comparing my own Taipan F16 to the Blade F16. The Blade can be pushed harder and sail faster, but my Taipan gives better early warning of approaching the limit. Read back on the Capricorn and Blade reports to see the above behaviour worded in other terms.

I fear that the LR2 will noticeably suffer from this. Mostly because waves initiated this behaviour and up till now the design didn't see any waves in my opinion. Just flat water with some small wind chop on top. Chop is not the same as waves ! Ask Matt McDonald and his experience at the F16 Global Challenge !

Small rudders and daggerboards, What can I say ! We have all been down this road before. These are very nice in stable and relatively flat watersurface conditions. Now try them in rough conditions with significant gusts and waves or even try to hold your position on the start line with them. Pretty much they work in laboratory like conditions but not outside of those.

Maybe the designers of the LR2 have found a different solution to these issues but I'm sceptical. I'll give them full credit when I'm proven wrong, before that time is is just unfounded claims.

Wouter,

There will be a full report of the boat's performance after the Lake Hoptacong regatta on the 28-29 of this month. One of the aspects that has been left out of this convesation is that both Ian and fred are in a learning/discovery stage with the new boat. So while there has been some interesting data to date, detailed in greater amount on the boatdesign forum, than here, it is still early on in the understanding process. I would say to make any conclusions at this point is a bit premature. The early reports are that the boat is handling in a manner that was expected from the boat by the designer. Ian has stated that his learning curve has been quite steep and he tends to load the hulls up sometimes by sheeting too tight among other issues. So far they are driver issues. So why dont we give the critiques a rest as we await more definative information to come out of the upcoming regatta. It also looks like there could be as many as three LR2's at the A-Class Worlds to be held in Islamorado, FL in November. That will be a great showcase for the boat, the helmsman and the class itself. There will be more than one new design and thought process making a debut there. I would estimate that there will be the latest generation of sails from Glaser, Ullman, Ashby, Landenberger, Goodall, Oxo, RacerX and others. there will be at least 4-6 relatively new boats and designs including the LR2, the new Peter Cogan/Ben Hall design, A new Marstrom (wave-piercing), 2-3 new Australian boats, the refined A3 and possibly a couple of one-off designs along with the rest of the existing competitive designs out there. I sail a Boyer MKIV and if my sailing abilities were that of the top 20 I would be able to finish on this boat somewhere in the top 25%. What hampers me more is my own abilities than that of the boat itself. Would my boat win, probably not, but the speed difference between the top boats is incremental.


Tom
just a few pics to show the difference between Ian's boat (red) and a Flyer (green)...pic's are a comparison at full load (i.e sailing on one hull)
RG
Attached Thumbnails


http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18037&goto=newpost

Cool ! Looking forward to it.

Wouter

Bla bla bla Wouter. Your disclaimer does nothing to hide the fact that you think you are a cut above the thought processes of others Wout and the facts show it is no more than unfounded arrogance.
I will stop pulling your wings off now as I am tired of you but the next time you decide to suggest I am a retard, put your brain in gear and turn your computer off.

On triangular courses I'm glad I had those high bows for those wild reaches.
I liked to gauge how hard I am pushing the boat by how many inches the deck was above the surface as a safety factor.
I wonder with Upwind/Downwind courses is reserve buoyancy really needed?

Just perusing USACA, the first LR2 is for sale after Lake Hapatcong, they must be very confident if the sale is only after the results and also begs the question of what changes have been made to boat #3, after all you only build a new one if you have something better in mind, no?
Q

I think that the point is to move the first boat and create cash flow and build more boats. There probably are some small adjustments made to boat # three which you would expect. Find out what you can and need to change and change it. In the A-Class you see quite a few changes in newer boats. The A2 is now on version A3 with Pete and Jeremy having made changes that they feel make the boat better. The Geltek Flyer is also on version MKII or MKIII.

Lake Hoptacong NOR

I know none of you have every done this before... ever right...

Well I guess I got the dates a little messed up in my earlier message. The Race Days are actually September 29th and September 30th. We will be having Lars Gluck do his coaching on Friday September 28th.

Sorry for the confusion.

On another note:

DEBUT of NEW BOAT DESIGNS
So it looks like the group has assembled pretty well for this regatta again. An added bonus this year comes too. We have travelers, Lindahl's, coming from Michigan with a very radical new boat design and it will be doing its first debut of racing on the east coast here in NJ that weekend. We also have travelers coming in from Canada's A-Cat fleet and one of which has one of those new boats also. many of us have heard about this new concept in hulls and now we get to see it up close and on the starting line

I know some of you have also seen Peter Cogans new designed hulls and boat, taking the good parts of the Bimare and Pete Melvin's designs and putting it together in a new hull shape. Should be fun to see the performances of each of these new designs before heading down to the worlds later this fall.

HOUSING ...Going Fast
We are starting to make assignments for the housing for the regatta. Lots of good houses left but with the response we got last week they will fill up fast. So if you are at all interested in coming for the Party/Racing, please let me know ASAP so I can keep a count on the guests and start farming them out to the fleet members. Almost all of us live on the lake front and have accommodations ranging from big private homes to historic boat houses with apartments above them.

FAMILIES WELCOMED
Also consider bringing the wives and kids. We have three families attending so far and we will try and get them close enough, if not in the same home, that there is some self entertainment benefits. Last year a bunch of the "Significant Others" took off on a shopping spry and some went off to New York City while the sailors wee having a great day. The yacht club itself is very friendly with children and has good swimming and food all day as well.

Well hope we can see ya up here at the lake in a couple weeks.

This last post was from the usaca.info emailing that I copied and reposted here. Just want to give the credit to the sender who was not me. I belive it was M. Skeels. Also it should read Lars Guck of GuckInc. (current A-Class North American champion) is giving theon the on/off the water seminar.

Copied from usaca.info website!

9/13/2007 2007 Roake and Lindahl First platform built and has been sailed for 2 months. Has been weighed in and is underweight. Exceptionally stiff platform that can be sold with or without a Hall Spar and Glasier sail or sails. Spare boards and rudders are available also. Could be available 1st of October following the Hopatcong regatta. Contact for pricing.
John Lindahl - jlindahl_lcd@yahoo.com
Ian Lindahl - ian_lindahl@yahoo.com
New A-Class from Roake and Lindahl
There is a new A boat sailing. This probably comes as no surprise to many of you as we haven’t kept it a secret and photos are on the web. The idea of building another boat was generated about a year ago when my son, Ian, thought “we” should build a new boat. The last A I built was 18 years ago and sailed it in the 1988 Worlds. Ian always liked that platform and thought that todays, more powerful rigs could drive it to potential. I had to contact the designer of that boat, Richard Roake, to see if he had any ideas to improve that design. Little did I know he would put all his energy and hours of computer time into a brand new boat. The question was “If I design it will you build it?” My answer was “yes” and we were off and running. The combination of Roakes computer and my epoxy and sandpaper had worked twenty years ago and has worked well again. Ian knew what was good and what was bad from his sailing experience in A boats, 18 squares and a variety of other boats. Dad listened and since we had a brand new design we came up with a very unique build method for the boat. We strip planked a hull shape with 3/8” thick foam. The shape was achieved by using female building frames CNC cut from Roakes design. The shape was carboned with WEST System epoxy and we came out with an exceptionally stiff platform. New boards and rudders were designed and built as well. We used an existing rig of Hall Spars and Glasier sail so we could evaluate the new platform independent of a rig change. So far the performance has exceeded expectations. This boat just feels different underfoot. There is almost no pitch, great stability downwind, and excellent windward VMG. We believe the design premise of a more responsive hull has been achieved. We have built two boats (one has gone to Fred Smith, who gambled with us, right from the beginning) and will have a third built in time for the Worlds.



Contact:
John Lindahl (jlindahl_lcd@yahoo.com)
Ian Lindahl (ian_lindahl@yahoo.com)

LR2 Update

As stated in another thread, the LR2 will be at Lake Hopatcong this weekend. A question was asked earlier in this thread as to what changes would be made in the next boat. It seems that the current LR2 is going to be the full sized hull working well with heavier sailors, the 190# and up range. So the next version/mk will have much less volume and be targeted at the 165# weight range. RG can speak up here for any additional information that he would like to include. It will be great to see the LR2 against the new Hall/Cogan design this weekend. I believe that the LR2 is on the right tract, but lets see what the racing states. I for one want to see how the boat does against all of the other designs that will be present at the regatta. On a different note, great winds on Lake Winnepasaukie, NH today on board a Boyer MKIV 2up. 89 degrees, winds 12-18 and a great sail on the only A-Class on the lake. What "A" Blast. Fair Winds.

Tom,
The current boat has been sailed at up to 285# and it definitely goes faster at that weight and you still can't bury the bow, this is both uphill and down hill and in winds as low as 7 knots so far, below that I don't have data for yet. The rough gain in VMG is about 0.2 knots over sailing at what I had designed as the correct crew weight.
The 3rd boat that Ian will sail at the worlds has a mid range modification to reduce both bouyancy and lift and will be but one of several changes I have in mind and hence is not really a definative Mk2 version, just an evolution from what we have learnt so far.
In rough terms the LR2 has about 8.7% less surface area than a conventional design, boat 3 will be about 9.4% less and the iteration after that as it now stands will be approx 11.5% less, wetted surface area in the same progression is -1.4%, -1.85% and -2.8% and waterplane area is -3.2%, -4.9% and -8.8%. Right now I'd guess that boat 4 will be pretty close to a final configuration assuming that the next one does what we expect it to do.
As for race pace, sometimes the boat sails really well and other times not, I'd say its not yet an easy boat to master, but we are working on that, other than that the races will tell how well we have done.
Other than that I'm quite pleased with what John, Ian and I have achieved so far, considering how far off the beaten track we have strayed :-)
RG

Was just thinking about the previous post and thought it might have been misleading for the emphasis to be on the above numbers. The real goals for us are first pitch stability, so you can drive it to the max all the time and know the boat will always recover no matter what you do to it, that in turn tends to give you more usable power from the rig. Second and third are drag reduction and dynamic lift production (hopefully with minimal induced drag). This last one we have totally overdone and hence the need to make the hulls smaller, not that its a bad mistake to make. Hope this clarifies where we are attempting to take the design.

Firstly let me say I am mightily impressed with your boat, its nice to see somebody going out on a limb to try something new, and even better when it appears to be paying off. How did you go about improving the pitch stability, was it mostly through positioning the center of buoyancy (dynamic or static).

Gareth
www.fourhulls.com

Gareth,
just moving the LCB/LCF around does do much as it is static and doesn't scale with the loads. Mostly its achieved by carefully tailoring the bottom pressures and changing that to suit what your after and hopefully you don't change the drag too much while doing it.
If you look at the video's you can see it works reasonably well and the mast appears to be stationary most of the time.
RG

Thats interesting, how did you calculate the bottom pressures, did you use a CFD code?

Gareth
www.fourhulls.com

yes, ultimately it comes down to using CFD to check what you have produced.
RG

Grob, this shows a hint of what the modelling can do to performance. This is a screen cap from last Saturday sailing in 8.2 knots (average is probably lower than that as the light yellow in the track shows just 5 knots in places) with the averages shown for 500m. Sea state was terrible as it blew 50 knots overnight, so this was going to weather in a 2-3 ft slop. Generally the boat appears to sail about 18-20% faster than windspeed uphill and the calculated leeward angles are in the 1.0 to 1.2 deg range. Points well also :-)
RG

here's a downwind track from the same race with the 2-3 ft slop, windspeed is probably less than 7.7 knots (less than 13 fps)(see wind scale top left)and the color on the track
RG

Fred & Ian,

Good luck this weekend. Cannot wait for the reports and pictures.

Your performance numbers seem consistent with GPS data I have gotten sailing my A2 in similar conditions. I think an A-Class is limited to a max upwind speed of 11-12 knots dependent upon sea state. I think if your efforts to reduce pitching motion are successful, you create a boat that is easier and more consistent to sail upwind which means a fast boat (given equal sailors and rigs). As a current A2 owner, my only complaint about the boat is it is difficult to push hard in breeze and chop downwind which is something Ian is very aware of. The Bim XJ is a lot easier boat to sail downwind in those conditions as is the current Marstrom. The A2 really shines downwind in light air mild mode and marginal to medium wild conditions. I am very interested to see how the LR2 will compare.

BTW, when I first saw the pictures of the boat out of the water, I thought it looked ugly. But watching it sail in the videos, it is actually pretty cool looking. I kind of felt the same way about the A2 until I saw it sailing.

Bob Hodges

Wow, some beauty critics may be coming around! I have personally seen this new design going uphill fast in a fresh breeze without pitching, and going downhill in good air without sticking a hull in. Thus it may even be competitive with an A3! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dave, I thought that being competitive with the A3 and some of the other recent designs was one of the main points in this project. How did you do on your XJ sailing with Ian when you were up?

I've only sailed Charlie Ogeltree's XJ briefly but it was in about 14-16 knots of choppy Galveston Bay sea breeze. Phil Kinder had told me he thought it was the easiest A-Cat to push hard downwind and after sailing the boat, I have to agree. I was envious of the way it seemed to get up and over waves without stuffing downwind. When we switched and I was on my A2, I could sail as fast as Charlie most of the time but it was harder. If the LR2 is as easy to sail as the XJ, it should be very competitive.

I really liked the 01 Bim that I sailed in florida this past year. the XJ looked highly modified from that, so I bet it is great to sail. I am just beginning to understand my Boyer MKIV and wish it had at lot less freeboard from in the bow area. I am thinking about having it trimmed down from the front stays forward. It is not a job that I look forward to handling though. I am thinking about bringing the boat to Lars and have him look at it.

Some photos from Lake Hopatcong
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze28w8n/

Thanks Les, really appreciate that :-)
RG

This photo fits the thread title. Check out the rudders and board shape as well. Thinking outside the box!

Sorry WindSwept- It just seems that the A2 boys are complaining about lack of forward bouyancy.
RE:Speed on my XJ vs new design? At the Silver Lake Invitational when Ian's mast was hanging over sideways because the Vectran stretched- I felt really fast. But at Douglas Lake a month later with Ian's new SS shrouds, I felt slow.
Note the title of this 20 page thread- It isn't just the bow shape that is different- there are no "decks".

Those nifty/snappy red tiller arms must be on Fred Smith's new LR2. Ian's are black AFAIK.
For Tom: Tony Arends at RacerX posted pictures of his repaired/modified Bim 2000 with lowered bow.

Just had a quick chat with Ian, seems it was as shifty as predicted and extremely light today. Final places were Lars First with Ian and Micheal Gruber tied for 2nd
RG

I would love to see the pictures from the race but, I can't get the links at http://mysite.verizon.net/vze28w8n/
to work. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

GARY

That page has changed from when Les first posted. My guess is that they're in the process of updating it.

Looks like a couple of Tuna to me! Love 'em! Riding on powerful tuna

GARY

who wants a Tuna when its a dud ? see the results, it never did better than 3rd
Q

and the second boat got a 20,17,8,dnf, that s worse than a dud
Q

Q


You obviously based that using a fair and just analysis of boats racing history.

Tools aren't only an A Class designs.

Guys,
You cant base any analysis on the hull design from the results from the lake. The wind is so shifty and its really easy to sail into a hole and park. The locals did well and the local knowledge paid off. Secondly, the Acat is really hard to sail downwind fast, so the sailors skills are pretty important.

I think its the sailor's skills first, the rig second, the hulls third.

You'll notice that Lars won, even against Ben's new wing and Ben's no slouch.

The LR2 looks better in person and the build quality is top notch. I think the only way to really judge it is to sail it.

Bill

Are the A-Class worlds being sailed on a lake this time around?

Islamorada, FL

http://www.acatworlds.com/

I updated the page last night, added some racing shots as well as some links to videos on youtube.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze28w8n/
http://www.youtube.com/user/lesburn1
The videos are from a still digital camera so the quality is not very good.

Lake Hopatcong A- Class Fall Regatta and Atlantic Coast Championship Series.



The 2nd Annual Lake Hopatcong Yacht Club Fall A-Class Regatta was held this weekend September 29-30th.



The weekend started with a full and very long day with 15 sailors coming in Thursday night (Sept 27th) or early Friday morning for a full day of Coaching with Lars Guck. Lars started with some of the very basic concepts of boat handling and added some of the latest most up to date theory and knowledge of A-Class Racing. Starting strategies, Gate rounding strategies, and Sail trim and weight distribution were discussed with a very complete question answer session. After 2 hours of Lars demonstrating on his boat and running thru his version of tacks, string pulling, etc.. a break for lunch with Pizza and Sub-sandwiches was enjoyed. Then it was off the water for a series of drills and races.



Lars had all the sailors do repetitive starts on 3 minute count down and mixed in a short course one lap race every once in a while to keep everyone engaged. While the sailors were doing their drills a Video was recording their progress and showed later back in the club for further analysis. The starting line at first was very deep as sailors had a wide range of experience. As the drills progressed the group at the line as the gun went off, was very tight and very competitive, showing proof that practice does work. During the entire time Lars was barking out suggestions to the sailors and providing some limited one on one coaching when indicated. The clinic ended and boats were put away, only to allow a short period of time before the first party was to start. Peter and Nancy Hefele again hosted the Friday night dinner party at their lake front home with great music, food and plenty of ****. All guest sailors were shuttled back late in the evening to their respective host homes via boat.



Saturday we woke up to a beautiful sunny cloudless day with a 10-15 knot breeze out of the NW. The rest of the sailors from out of town arrived and we had some breakfast at the club and started 28 sailors on the line for the first race. The conditions were gusty and provided some very challenging windward beats but some fun and exciting down wind runs.



One of the best parts of Saturday was everyone walking around the club lawn looking at all the new boat designs and shapes. Peter Cogan and Ben Hall had their new hulls there, Steve Clarks design was represented by Bill Vinning from CT. John and Ian Lindahl also made the trip from Michigan with their new LR2 hull shape. Fred Smith from Canada was also there with his brand new LR2. All of this new technology sitting side by side with 30 year old CatNip boats. John Lindahl (Michigan boat builder) and Cal Fuller (father of the CatNip, from Lake Hopatcong) spent many hours discussing boat design. But, nothing was more interesting then seeing Ben Hall set up his new Fixed Wing boat and push it off the ramp into the Lake. We also had a Hydrofoil expert snooping around all day too looking to see what the A-Class is up to now and how he could push that technology into his new Hydro foil Cat boats.



Unfortunately we had several causalities right of the bat with two major collisions occurring and sending three boats back to ramp. The 30 year old CatNip had its starboard bow ripped off at the start, amazing enough the helmsmen was able to sail the boat back to the club by keeping the damaged hull out of the water on the starboard tack, and keeping it from sinking. An XJ was speared and repaired via duct tape for the rest of the races. Lars Guck took 1st place in the 3 races Mike Gruber from LHYC, Ian Lindahl from Michigan, and Danny Goritski from LHYC taking turns at second and third.



Saturday night, “Rums of Puerto Rico” sponsored a Caribbean theme party and dinner at the LHYC. Nearly 75 sailors and guests attended the dinner, live DJ music and dancing until late at night. Sailors were again dragged away to their host homes for some well needed rest. Needless to say all the rum was consumed.



Sunday morning a very slow start to the day was felt by all sailors. A beautiful morning was found with bright sunshine and a light breeze out of the east. Everyone was egor to get another set of races in before calling it a weekend. The breeze shifted immediately to the North East then back again to the east. True to lake form, the wind was making it challenging. Only one race was attempted and a 5 boat photo finish was seen by the spectators at the finish line with local Danny Goritski taking the last race by a foot. Ben Hall pull across at third with Lars Guck third.



After breakdown and reloading the boats on the trailers a barbeque was served up with various meats. The award ceremonies were held afterward out on the lawn. During the announcements, it was noted that within the crowd there was significant representation of the A-Class best sailors. Call Fuller, Ben Hall, “Doc” Stern, John Lindahl, Lars Guck, Mike Gruber were all winners, most multiple times, of the North American Championships. As the awards were given out, Lars Guck with his series of bullets took first place in the fall regatta series, Mike Gruber 2nd, Ian Lindahl with the LR2 hulls got 3rd place, Danny Goritski 4th and Jim Godby 5th.



Since this was the last of the Atlantic Coast Championship series, we also handed out the trophies for this 4 event series. The series is based on the four race weekends held at West River in April, Bristol in June, Cayuga in July and Hopatcong in September. Jim Godby was the only sailor going to all four events, with Mark Skeels, Chris Brown and Andrew Burdett going to three of the four. The First Place trophy was captured by Jim Godby, with Lars Guck getting 2nd, Mark Skeels 3rd, Chris Brown 4th and Tony Arends getting 5th.



Now we are all done and it is time to rest. 3 days of good sailing, socializing, and talking about sailing has worn us all down. Can’t wait to do it again next year.







Lake Hopatcong A-Class Fall Regatta 2007 RESULTS

Helm
R1
R2
R3
R4
Total
Rank

Lars Guck
1
1
1
3
6
1st

Mike Gruber
2
2
6
5
15
2nd

Ian Lindahl
4
3
4
4
15
3rd

Danny Goritski
13
4
2
1
20
4th

Jim Godby
3
11
9
6
29
5th

Peter Block
11
7
7
11
36
6th

Mark Skeels
6
9
10
12
37
7th

Greg Comito
16
10
5
8
39
8th

Chris Brown
8
13
13
7
40
9th

Ben Hall
5
8
DNF
2
43
10th

Peter Cogan
DSQ
5
3
9
45
11th

Peter Hefele
9
18
16
13
56
12th

Dean Lenox
10
6
13
DNF
57
13th

Fred Smith
20
17
8
DNF
73
14th

Fred Steinbaum
17
19
11
DNF
75
15th

Charlie Oberman
18
15
15
DNF
76
16th

Bill Vinning
14
16
19
DNF
77
17th

Bernd Hefele
12
12
DNF
DSQ
80
18th

John Knuth
21
14
17
DNS
80
19th

Steve Levine
19
21
20
DNF
88
20th

Tracy Oliver
7
DNS
DNS
DNS
91
21st

Luis Balzac
15
20
DNF
DNF
91
22nd

Andrew Burdett
22
DNS
14
DNF
92
23rd

Bruce Feakins
DNF
DNS
DNS
DNS
94
24th

Bill Romano
23
DSQ
18
DNS
97
25th

Peter Karpiak
DNF
DNF
DNF
DNF
112
26th

Todd Walter
DNF
DNS
DNS
DNS
112
27th

Thanks for a great report. I'm curious about that CatNip that was damaged. The boat in the photo that was posted earlier appears to be carrying signage from NZ. Was one of my compatriots competing?

The boat is owned by a Kiwi--Andy Burdett who is now living in New Jersey, and is a member of the Lake Hopatcong Yacht Club. Andy beautifully refurbished the Cat-Nip last year, and graciously loaned the boat out for this regatta. Andy had upgraded to a Bim XJ this summer.

Update:
Boat #3 is now finished and John and Ian are working on getting it into the water in the next day or two. The main changes are the beam seats (flush with the top and outside of the hulls), slightly changed forward sections that reduce waterplane area, volume and lift and of course reduced weight. There are also a host of small detail changes, but they won't affect the performance too much.

Boat #1 will also be at the worlds, but sailed by Randy Smyth with the sail # USA 1000. In conjunction with Randy we are working on a new type of mainsail that has never have seen before and the hope is that it's really fast. Time will tell.

Will post a few pics of boat #3 in the next few days after its in the water.
RG

Any hints on the mainsail and why it is different? Less than 3 weeks before the worlds...

LOL....I'm not telling but your welcome to ask Randy <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
RG

Here's a pic of Boat #3 still in primer. It will be sailed this way for a week or so before painting while Boat#1 gets repainted. Sailing pics tomorrow.
RG

Every time I see one of these boats I like the look of it more and more!

its is starting to grow in appearance , all it needs now is to be competitive with 255lbs aboard and it would hit a wish list

I think the original hulls will carry close to that.. This one is supposed to have less volume then then first 2 did. RG can correct me if I am wrong.

Right now its sailed with a 185lb crew, but we have sailed it with up to 285 lb (once). The GPS indicated it didn't hurt the boatspeed too much in the lulls and was faster in the puffs over 12 knots but Ian did say that it felt slow to him at times. My best guess right now is that it should be competitive up to about 220-230lb and a little off above that except in a breeze where it will probably be faster.
RG

First sail of Boat #3 today

Another of Boat #3 today
RG

Any reason for the dolphin striker front beam? (other then cost or availablity)

It would seem that a strikerless carbon beam would be better

Yep, I definently like that boat!

Actually, it stiffens up the whole platform not just the front beam, weight or cost are not a consideration.
RG

Have you considered adding a rail so that you can trap further out? And give you a place to sit/hike?

I noticed Ian had his feet half way down the hull in Hoppycong. In the ocean I would think he would be fighting to stay on board.

Bill

I did draw such an arrangement up initially, but John and Ian didn't want it. Ian appears in most of the pic's to trap with his feet just above the waterline, he has also sailed this way in 3-4 ft short steep slop and has yet to mention it as a problem. If someone wanted a trap rail, it's easy enough to add.
RG

How did you do boat for boat at the Worlds?

Doug

Boat for boat I'd have to say it's not living up to what I'd hoped for, that said it still does some stuff extremely well and I'm pretty sure that neither John, Ian or I am about to give up on this approach just yet. More importantly we learned a lot and next time round it will hopefully be improved further.
RG

FOLLOW UP ON THE LR2

After finishing the A Class Worlds an evaluation of the LR2 was made by builder, John Lindahl; builder/sailor, Ian Lindahl; designer, Richard Roake; sail maker/sailor Randy Smyth; and sailor, Fred Smith. Input was also received from several others and the conclusions are noted here.

For a brand new boat (both design and build) there was a general feeling of success. The boat itself performed very well, for as little time as the sailors had to learn it and tune. Roakes hull shape put some lift in the bow and got the weather hull out of the water very quickly. Everyone commented about the fact that this design does not want to pitchpole. There is plenty of volume forward. One nice attribute of the design is the boats ability to go into “point mode” and maintain speed. The best VMG downwind seemed to be achieved by heading down rather than doing the “wild thing”. The unique bows did not dive and trip, like a lot of people thought they would. Instead they stabilized the platform and at times there was a feeling of too much bow. This was felt in the accelerations coming out of a wave or when a gust hit you. The hull shape above the waterline reduced air drag, so you didn’t feel the bows getting pushed around in the wind. Boards and rudders were excellent with extremely good getaway from the starting line and a no drag feel when underway. It was possible to easily pull them up, even when “loaded” on an upwind beat.

When the building project began there were two overriding parameters: integrity and weight. The platform had to be strong and light. Hull panel stiffness was achieved by using a much thicker core than anyone else (9mm). The thick core was shaped by strip-planking the foam core inside CNC cut female frames. The core was then carefully laminated with carbon and epoxy inside and out. Beam junctions were glued and carbon wrapped for an exceptional joint. The first three LR2’s built are all under class minimum weight, with the third boat being 15 pounds under). Minimal fairing and attention to resin use kept the hull weight very low, as well as there only being 63 sq.ft. of surface area on a hull. The platform was stiff, strong and surprisingly light, with the added bonus that the boats finished out looking good.

All agreed that time on the boat is all that’s needed to put this boat up at the front of the fleet. All also agreed that the rig tune (mast-sail combination) was the area that needed the most attention. This of course goes back to time on the boat. There was also a feeling that the platform could take on more power.

This exercise was intended to get some new ideas in design and building technique introduced to the A Class community. We feel successful in doing that and will continue custom work on the boat. Complete boats are available as well as kits for those interested in doing their own. Board and rudder speed kits are available as well. R & D will continue with Richard Roake in the New Zealand design studio and Lindahl Composite Design here in Michigan.

A website is in the works but for now information is available from:

John Lindahl
LINDAHL COMPOSITE DESIGN
6002 Cedar St.
Fennville, MI 49408
269.650.5900
jlindahl_lcd@yahoo.com

Jake:
The LR2 looks like a Submarine Hull. I remember Bill Roberts telling us that No one had put more money into a hull design than the US Navy, and that was essentially the shape they came up with.
CARY
A-CAT 29

Copied from email on LR2 site http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LR2ACATS/
Hello,



For those of you who have dreamed of building your own boat I think our method of building will be of interest to you. A competitive A can be built by this method and if done correctly will yield a boat that is as strong and stiff as anything out there and under weight. If you are familiar with strip planking canoes read on, because that is how
we built three A boats in the summer of '07, and the third one weighed only 150 lbs. In order to help everyone with the "hard" parts we have come up with a "kit" idea. The concept allows a person to pick out the parts of this
that he feels capable of doing and getting help with the rest. Fist you should read the boat building articles on this site. Then remember, you need no autoclave, no vacuum bag, no resin infusion, no prepreg, and no solid surfaced mold to laminate into. What you do need is patience, attention to detail, and a knowledge of working with
epoxy resins. What we can offer you is a design that has been converted into a bunch of female building frames for the hulls. We can even take your own design and convert it into these building frames. These frames will give you the "mold" to strip-plank foam strips into. We can also deliver a CNC cut pattern that aligns the two hulls when
cross beams are added. We can also supply daggerboards and rudder blanks from our CNC machined model that are outstanding in performance and less than 3lbs. each.
A list of our suppliers for building materials is also available, and you will get all the instructional help you need. The purpose of making this all available is to encourage the development of the best single-handed catamaran out there and get you into the basement or garage mixing glue. Cal Fuller (Lake Hopatcong)got me going and we're just passing it on.

John Lindahl

Has anyone heard how the LR2's are going (if at all?)since the worlds? seems like they vanished into thin air.

They are sailing pretty regulary. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LR2ACATS/
Click on this link and send John or Ian a message and they will update you on what is happening in their world. I believe that they have sold 2 kits for people to build their own as well as one that is a partial build with the purchaser choosing to paint and beam the boat up himself.

Apart from what Tom posted, boat #1 was sold to a guy on Lake Hapatcong, Ian kept boat #3 and Fred still has boat #2. Ian has been racing most of the summer and has now got to the point where he wins about half the races in MI, with Matt Struble winning the other half. Quite a few problems with the rig/sail combo that will hopefully be cured by a recut this week. We are looking into doing a larger chord wing mast for Ian, but no decisions just yet.
Cheers
RG