how to point a sloop higher?

hi all,
i've read that raking the mast aft will allow a cat to point a little higher
and someone has said that sailing a sloop rigged cat with only the main will allow it to point a little higher, (in this case a nacra 5.2 with center boards)

anyone any ideas on how much higher for each change?

are we talking 1 degree higher for each and 2 degrees higher for both?

just wondering as if i am sailing "tourist" mode with an extra adult and a couple of small kids on board speed will not be an issue but being able to get around a small lake with minimal tacks will

If you have many people on the baot you don't want to take off the jib, she will be slow and not fun.

But I feel that my 5.2 does point a little better without the jib, but not enough to sacrafice the power.

You can't point as high with the jib due to the nature of having a jib. It is because of what the jib does for the main.

and while you may not be able to point quite as high with a jib, you go faster and get upwind faster. Also note that as you go faster, your apparent wind goes more onto the nose of the boat...hence the faster you go, the lower you point.

Jake, you and peepee are joking, right?

uhhh...no - why?

You and peepee might wanna have this conversation with the unirig guys, like Curry or Hodges, but here goes:

I'm just trying to understand how:
one "get upwind faster"
by
"lower you point."
'cause
pointing lower
takes you AWAY from the mark... ?!?


Like I suggest above, I'm sure a better explanation will be forthcoming when the Acat guys get done but here goes:

At high angles of attack (eg upwind/high on the wind), the jib, with its comparatively inefficient foilshape, creates more drag than it creates lift. In an ideal world, whenever you go upwind, you'd want to furl your jib and add that sail area to your main, making the main really high-aspect, like Acat, 18sq or other unirig sails (Ccat too). Of course that only will work in the movies ;-)

The jib is also not able to direct flow across the lee side of the main efficiently when at high angles of attack.

Raking back will prolly help some, but not much, and you'll pay for it downwind, so you have to strike some sort of balance there. Raking back will also cause helm imbalance because it changes the center of effort of the sails. So be prepared to reangle your rudders.

Getting to a point upwind fast is not about pointing its about VMG; same goes for a mark going downwind. On a Nacra 5.2 or similar the VMG will be better sailing with the jib to cause that flow through the slot that you are talking about, without it the boat is much slower although you can probably point a little higher.

Jaybird,

In the F16 class we actually race uni-rig and sloops directly against one another and yes indeed what Jake says is true.

Pointing is only halve of the equation, boat speed is the other halve.

There are indeed two ways to achieving a high VMG.

The first is by pointing high and not loose too much boat speed

The second is by pointing a little lower and achieving sufficiently higher boatspeed.

Often the sloops excel at the last method.

Also most of the jib related discussions along the lines as you provide are just BS. Jibs are not inefficient sails, to the contrary. Adding sail area to your mainsail actually lowers aspect ratio and does not increase it as you suggest. Really high aspect mainsails have to be depowered significantly sooner, losing all their advantage in the higher wind ranges. For designs like the A-cats higher wind speeds mean anything above 8-10 knots.

A-cats not so much fast boats because of their uni-rig status, The fact that they have highly developped masts and sail and weight next to nothing has something to do with it to.

In the F16 class we use exactly the same hardware for both roles and indeed losing the jib while keeping everything else the same (like the number of crew) is slower upwind despite being able to point higher.

Wouter

So...if you take the jib off a Nacra 5.2 it will be faster to A mark? I beg to differ. In fact, if you put a jib on an A-cat (with existing mainsail size) or an F17, etc. It will be faster. The reason the A's don't have a jib is that they are limited to sail area and have found that when restricted to a specific sail area, uni is the way to go since having it all in the main is more efficient than allotting some of that area for a jib. We're talking about two different things here.

I didn't say 'take the jib off' I said 'move that same sail area to the main'

Jake, if you and Wouter are correct, then answer this:

--Why are A-Cats unirig?

--Why, when the rules provide for the choice to divide the 18 square meter sail area however one likes, is the predominant sail plan choice for 18sqM, unirig?

--Why are the C-Cats unirig?

--Why are the 18HT boats unirig, with hi-aspect chute for downwind, (which incidentally seems to me to be the optimum sail plan, best of both?)

--ergo, why unirig?

I mean, you yourself said, "since having it all in the main is more efficient"

Why would that be? Unirigs get tanked on a reach, and it gets tanked downwind for sure. There must be SOME advantage...?

Who's in?

Then you answer this :

-1- What is preventing me from adding a jib in addition to moving all that sail area into the mainsail ?

-2- Why are the most succesful catamaran classes like the F18's and Hobie 16's not uni-rigs ?

-3- Why do all modern boats have spinnakers when obviously putting all that spinnaker area in the mainsail is more efficient ?

-4- Why aren't all A-cats using the C-class solid wing sails ?

-5- Why has the A-cat class actively banned full foiling ?

-6- Why aren't the A-cat using spinnakers ?

-7- Ergo why is the A-cat class the way it is ?


I'm guessing your answer to all these questions is :"Because area in the mainsail is more efficient"

My answer is "Because the A-cat class members have written the rules such as to actively encourage the way the A-cats are designed now." Sometimes they have done because that is faster, sometimes they did it for wholely different reasons."

Ergo, looking at the A-cats is not always proof that something is better or more performant.

Wouter

We already had this discussion, and not that long ago.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Test&Number=118042

Rolf: thanks for the link. I shouldn't have wasted my time here. As you see, I'm new.

Jay, no worries. Thread was heating up and I tought I would save everybody some screen time.

The question was: "someone has said that sailing a sloop rigged cat with only the main will allow it to point a little higher, (in this case a nacra 5.2 with center boards)". The question was not, "can I redesign my entire boat to point higher".

I explained why an A-cat doesn't have a jib...it's because the A-cat (the 18sq as well) is limited to X sail area. When under such limits, it is more efficient to have it all in the main instead of building a smaller main to allow for some sail area in the jib. This may also be a factor of the lightweight boat that it demands efficiency more than it needs horsepower provided by a jib. A single sail is also much easier to handle when sailing solo.

In the case of this 5.2, which this thread is about, the boat will be slower upwind if you simply leave the jib off. The main is shaped wrong for it, the boat is not balanced for it, and it looses sail area and overall speed. Yes, it might be able to point slightly higher without the jib but, overall, it will be slower if you leave the jib off.

You're confusing this topic with a uni-platform vs. sloop. We're strictly talking about a sloop platform (i.e. thread title).

Actually, no, I did answer the question:

"At high angles of attack (eg upwind/high on the wind), the jib, with its comparatively inefficient foilshape, creates more drag than it creates lift. In an ideal world, whenever you go upwind, you'd want to furl your jib and add that sail area to your main, making the main really high-aspect, like Acat, 18sq or other unirig sails (Ccat too). Of course that only will work in the movies ;-)

The jib is also not able to direct flow across the lee side of the main efficiently when at high angles of attack.

Raking back will prolly help some, but not much, and you'll pay for it downwind, so you have to strike some sort of balance there. Raking back will also cause helm imbalance because it changes the center of effort of the sails. So be prepared to reangle your rudders."


See? I told the man why his jibbed boat won't point so well, and I offered him suggestions to help. (That would be the 'raking' mentioned above.)

I won't make the mistake of posting, much less travelling to this site again. newbie out

Somebody is a polly pissy pants...

Dang! Lost one in 5 posts! Do I hear 4!!!!!

Some people are wayyyyy too sensitive.

I've got a sensitive side too, but I leave it hidden when I'm around any cat sailors, don't want it stepped on <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Happy Veterans Day!!!

Clayton

Jaybird, I have a suggestion. Instead of just leaving the forum, log out, create a new account under different name, lurk for a while and then post.

You'll see by just reading for a while that there was nothing personal in this conversation, just normal honest banter. And don't think you are unlucky, getting in a heated discussion with Wouter and Jake on your first post, that's a really common occurrence <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

now look, you called "BS" first and started the name calling...and now YOU'RE mad?

Seriously though - don't go away...I didn't mean anything to be hateful.

I have a hunch that the Jaybird fella was just an alias. Funny how he just registered on Nov 11 and started a pissing match.

Someone is hiding behind an alias, plain and simple. LOL! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter, are you really Jaybird? Wouldn't that mean you were arguing with yourself? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Geeesh...am I THAT bad? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

wow! think a posting is dead and then it suddenly flares back into life with lots of life, who needs sailing anarchy

but as the original poster i just want to say thanks for all the replies, i know a lot more now than i did before

the reason i asked the question in the 1st place was to get an idea about the ultimate pointing ability of my 5.2 regardless of what it costs me in speed

next summer when i try to tempt my wife and 2 kids on board, (8yo and 6yo), speed will not be important. in fact they'll probably like it slow as they can count the times they have sailed on 1 hand.

without a jib the tramp will be much cleaner and give more space for kids to get out of my way without getting tangled in lines. as a newbie sailor i'll have 1 less thing to worry about. we reduce the already small chance of flipping the boat to an even smaller chance as i'd have to have the jib cleated and maybe most important on our small lake just a few degrees of better pointing means lots less tacks will all the bays, wind shadows and an island to get round

but then i may blow a tack and end up screaming at everyone while i try to stop backing onto the rocks

whatever, the info has been great and it'll be great fun to experiment with both rigs and mast rake and then compare all the gps tracks to work out what works best, in that lake with it's winds and me at the helm.

If the day is quiet enough for you to leave the jib on, the kids will love doing the jib it will give them some involvment
regards

good point, they do get bored in anything approaching safe sailing but my daughter and i start to worry when the wind picks up and it gets interesting

on my dingy i could quickly turn around to pick up a man overboard or even just dive out for them and the boat would round up quickly

but on the nacra it'd take me much more space to stop and come back and if i dived off the cat while it would round up eventually it would be too far away to tow a child

Jaybird,

Your statements about the jib are wrong and you are wrong in continuing to reference to them.

Taking one example out of possibly many : A jib DOESN'T create more drag then lift as you claim.

Wouter

Sounds like a furler for your jib is in order. Great to be able to take it in and out of the picture as the situation warrants. And if you don't take my advice, I'll quit the forum and pout. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

oh! the number of nights I've cried myself to sleep from the thrashing recieved by a fellow sailer hmmm

Lighten up Jaybird most of us are fairly nice A-holes

Karl, don't forget hard headed and Opinionated <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey Jake, If anyone seems to have a problem with you, they really have a problem with themselves they're not facing. That guy has a chip on his shoulder. Thanks for being your usual generous and knowledgeable self! It is too bad he couldn't understand what you were saying.

You posted a photo recently which showed your jib clearly (atleast I think it was you). You need to pull the wrinkles out of your jib with some luff tension, then you need a little more rig tension (I think that was the topic of your last question). Both of these should help with pointing.

Do a search on mast rake in this forum, it's been discussed heaps before. The basics of mast rake are that it will not noticeably help pointing no matter what the rake is (ignoring extreme rake positions, usually negatively). What it will significantly affect is helm on the rudders(weather or lee helm) You want to set your rake so that you have a little bit of weather helm while sailing upwind (if you release the tiller, the boat will round up into the wind steadily). Not so much that it is ripped out of your hand. This won't help your pointing but will reduce your leeway angle, which is another aspect of achieving height while sailing upwind. (The angle of your sails to the wind and the angle your boat slips sideways through the water both impact your height and are tricky to distiguish between.)

There is nothing tricky or "mystical" about rake and pointing, it is all about balancing forces and moments generated by the sails and hull (including appendages).

Jay, if you don't want to waist your time being bashed by Wouter on how a jib effects your ability to point, you can waist a few days on this. I do not believe anybody got bashed in this thread (although the Catter should have for starting it)

Waist of time

What's this I hear... is the "test" back again? Alright!! The absolute best 6 months worth of reading I've had in a while.

The test. A sure sign that winter is near. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Somebody else is going to have to post to it tho, I will not be guilty of waisting everybody else's time with such non-sense (Yet)

Trey- "Polly Piss pants" That's funny!

It's baaaaaaaack!

Pinching kills speed in any boat. Cats go fast, so they get further when allowed their head. A boat will feel sweet when taken off the highest pointing angle. Go down to sweet and then as speed builds come up a little anda retain speed and sweet feeling.
THe guys I generally sail with can'r seem to understand that pointing at something doesn't actually get you there.
"I know I was pointing higher than you but you crossed in front of me....."

I think it is an uptight thhing. Pinchers just can't let go and trust the process. They sail moment by moment and don't look at the path.

"They sail moment by moment and don't look at the path."

Well played my good man, well played.
CC