Class Strength ??

A comment was made in another thread about the relative class strenghts of the catamarans.

As we move forward in 2008 with issues for US Sailing and ISAF about the Olympics, and with our local clubs and Regional Sailing Authorities on Racing Events and Junior programs ... we should keep in mind that we really are a VERY small portion of the competivie sailing world in the USA.

RogerJolly's Annual one design survey is now out.

One Design Class Survey

Bottom Line only the Hobie 16 Class makes it into the top 25 with a running three year average above 40 boats.


Seems to me... that our classes need to do a better job of organizing our efforts and commiting to supporting our classes if we want to grow our portion of the sport.

Hell... the 29ner class is less then 10 years old and they have as many committed sailors as the Hobie 16 class which is going on 40!

But here we go again... Bim is annoucing another F16 like boat...BUT it doesn't conform to the F16 class rule... OR to the Level rated class of Nacra 17/ Hobie FX1 extreme's either...

Mark

That "survey" doesn't tell the whole story and RogerJolly admits it's weakness.

It's succeptible to overstating the position of very strong, regionalized classes, like the MC Scow, Y-Flyer and Butterfly.

It's also a very subjective, one-dimensional measure of a class' strength - how many boats attended the NA's/Nationals in the past three years.

However, it is disappointing to see only one cat class on the list. No classes other than Hobie 16's regularly draw 40+ boats to their NA events.

Interesting to see that the 29'er is the only really new class in the top 15.

It takes a certain types of people (specifically the most fun kind) to race catamarans. Quality not quantity = first and foremost.

Yeah, and negativity has nothing to do with class strenth. Your attitude is all wrong. How about rejoycing in the fact that the H16 came in at #11. It is the stepping stone for other cats.

Agreed - I'm learning that it takes only a couple of energetic and dedicated people to make an incredible difference in a class. Excitement is a tender and delicate thing.

OK, how about everyone sell their cats and buy a Hobie 16?!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

No offense but I refuse to step backwards. The "Hobie Way of Life" is what turned me off to all that when I watched them talk down about my friends who had Prindles and Nacras. Even when I had my 21SE I was told that I "would not be allowed on the water" at the Mid Winters in San Felipe in 2002 since there were no other 21's coming. I guess they forgot it was a Hobie since they stopped making them. The 16 is a strong fleet, I'll recognize that but the "Exclusive Club" scene is not for me.

Lee Wicklund/Team Chums N20

Lee,

"I refuse to step backwards" is about as offensive as one can get.

The Hobie class continues to evolve, and we are working to support all Hobie Cat sailors, but like anything else in life, we can't undo things that were done poorly in the past unless people on both sides are willing.

One of the biggest challenges at any regatta is what to do with poor turnouts of individual classes. Hobie regattas are the exception, not the norm, when it comes to leaving the invitation open to all Hobie classes until the morning of the event. For example, most YCs require pre-registration, with minimum numbers required to allow a class to race. Yes, for weekend regattas. They simply won't allow their budgets to be exposed to the unknown.

Of course, since that wasn't done in your case, the response that you received doesn't seem right. I don't know that I would have left the class over it, but that's ultimately up to you.

Mike

I know I probably should not have started on this one. I tried to stay optimistic on things and even volunteered to help out at Hobie events in hopes that they would come around and let us back in thier regattas. One event organizer on the west coast suggested giving the N20's a start at the Ventura Blue Water Regatta since it was put on by a Yacht Club and not insured by Hobie. A (I will not name) 16 A fleet sailor over heard this and came unglued about it since it was a "Points Regatta". There was actually saliva flying out of his mouth with his words! I think it's great that the 16 class is so strong. I also think some of the TOP catamaran racers are in that class. But I also think they need to realize TOTAL regatta attendance helps keep these races running year after year.
My point is that I left that mind set to sail with everyone. I would not want to go back to sailing where everyone was not welcome.

Lee Wicklund

Perhaps I'm a tool, but I've noticed that many MC owners do less recreational sailing, while cat owners tend to do more recreational sailing........

There are plenty of catamaran classes represented in this thread so far. If it takes 40 boats at Nationals to get on the scoreboard what is your class doing to achieve that milestone?
I'm guessing that the A's and the F18's are within striking distance. What are the growth strategies for these classes?

That's because an MC is not a comfortable boat to sail! Especially in light air...having to duck under the boom while sitting on the low side.

EXACTLY THE POINT!

Apart from your personal interest in simply growing your class participation, the big picture is to get US Sailing Olympic back on board and supporting the inclusion of cat's in the games!

It's reasonable for them to look at participation in a class nationally!

What is your class plan?

The Hobie 16 class organized, got money and built a fantastic trailer to haul 6 or 8 boats to nationals! Now THAT is a plan!

The F18 class is running THREE nationals in 08... I would love for some one to explain to me how that will get you to 40 boats! I don't think they will add them together! IMO, This is NOT a plan.

Organization and the INDIVIDUALS who take initative and makes things happen. Organization help, but without the individuals who cares, gets involved, starts things up and follows trough nothing much happens.

Sounds like you have a lot going on there Lee. You were thrown out of a Hobie event with a Hobie boat, that I can see as unfair.

Then, you are complaining about not getting into a Hobie event with a non-Hobie. That's where you're losing me.

This is tough for a lot of people to accept (as the past few years have clearly shown), but genuinely, the Hobie-only policy is NOT about people, it's about the boats. No one wants to turn anyone away, we just want them to come to Hobie events sailing, I don't know... HOBIE CATS?!?!?!?

The irony here is that in this single thread, there are complaints about cat classes not being built, then complaints about a cat class that tried to do something to discourage further splitting of the few Hobie classes that remain...

Rolf is 100% right, and others here have mentioned this important point in other threads. We're very fortunate to have very dedicated volunteers to make the Hobie class a success.

Mike

three nationals in '08? Where did you find that? I haven't been able to find one nationals.

The Hobie only policy is about getting a bigger slice of the pie. It has the side effect of shrinking the pie.

Growing a class shouldn't be a negative-sum game.

Mike,
So which is more important? Who (as in people) have benefited from the the changes in our back yard? When was the last time was saw each other? I am not bitter, (anymore) but it has hurt catamaran sailing in New England. What can be done to save it?
We are running the BSSC again this year. As a direct beneficiary of the BSSC, whould you support it with us?

Tigers in BC Canada
F18's Michigan
NAF18's Florida in October

Who knows.. the Capricorns might have a nationals as well.

Once again what is YOUR CLASS doing to grow YOUR CLASS?
Anyone.....Buller.....Buller?

Rhino, you did a great job of summarizing the key misconception about the intent of the Hobie policy. It's only a zero-sum game if no new blood is being brought in.

One of the leading contributing factors to the Hobie-only policy being implemented in the first place was the perception of the class that we were losing classes to non-Hobie boats because our smaller fleets were being reduced below critical mass (for example, if you have 7 dedicated Hobie 18 sailors, take 3 away and put them on other boats, the Hobie 18 class is now down to 4 boats, you lost a strong 7-boat class).

The "problem" was identified as competition for Hobie sailors from other classes. That is what ultimately drove the class decision.

In New England, this decision came about 3-4 years too late, and all the fleets except one (448) were reduced to too few remaining Hobie sailors to continue as Hobie fleets. This will take a very long time (if ever) to recover, and was not the most popular decision of all time because of the friendships that had built between members of different classes, many of which had previously raced together on the same boats.

Barry, to directly answer your question, I'm not saying we have to choose a type of boat over our friends in the sport, but we had to choose to keep having one-design Hobie classes. We would have preferred that those who chose to leave the Hobie classes would come back (on Tigers, etc.), but that has not happened.

I've personally been not racing for the past two years due to pregnancy and baby. I have offered to assist in running any of the events in the area, regardless of class. I ran a number of events in Newport this past summer, as well as some Hobie events, and am more than happy to help when invited. Shoot me an email and we can discuss for 2008, or you and Patricia can come to my house on the 19th for a party Michelle, Hunter and I are having.

What are the dates for BSSC? I have commitments for the weekends of June 7 and June 14, other than that, I'm open.

Mike

I didn't ascribe bad intentions to you all. I realize you are just trying to survive like the rest of us.

People join classes, and people leave classes. People even join dead classes and leave active classes. A class runs into trouble when there's not enough new sailors to replace the ones that leave. HCA responded by trying to make it harder to leave the class, by cutting off the other options.

My point is that by cutting off those other options, you are also decreasing the inflow of new sailors.

To put it metaphorically, you are trying to stave off dehydration by not pissing. That won't stop you from dehydrating, and holding your piss isn't good idea anyway.

Answers to grow a class

1. Buy the boat that's the biggest, most active class in your area and act like you're in love with the boat. Promote all the good points and NEVER mention it's drawbacks.

2. Always portray handicap racing as a pain in the a$$ and not a real true contest of ability.

3. Take over (or start) a multi-class one design (let's not call it yacht) club and get your class start out there in front of the 24 other top classes. Make 'em converts.

So buying one of 30? boats in the country would be a bad plan <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

quote] 2. Always portray handicap racing as a pain in the a$$ and not a real true contest of ability [/quote]

So handicap racing impacts your one design class participation ???

How does that work? Do you need the big boogeyman "handicap racing" to scare people into staying put in your OD class?

Ok... I will write down SCARE TACTIC as a Hobie 20? initiative

But you know.... It can't be that scary bad...
how do you explain the IRC class.... I just got a full color magazine with my latest Sailing World. Seems like a lot of big time sailors are racing handicap that way ... world wide in fact!

One of the latest surveys of racing owners indicates that more one design racing will NOT increase participation.

Going out of your way to tell a racer... well... your racing sucks... you can't know if you are good if you race handicap certainly will be a winning strategy. Can you introduce me to anyone who has joined the class because of this appeal?



You think misrepresenting your class and boat is a SUCCESS STRATEGY!?

Is that working for the Hobie 20 class?.... Are you guys getting close to the 40 boat milestone by using deception....
Wow! For pete’s sake… don’t tell them the boat is not built anymore…

I guess that is a new definition of being helpful to new people considering the class. They will never figure this stuff out on their own...




Great... a useful idea!... but oh wait... Hobie Class tried that... they actually used to invite other cat sailors to experience the Hobie OD way of life... Same idea… convert em… Apparently... it back fired... rather then get cat sailors to switch to Hobie....the Hobie class CLAIMS they lost sailors to the classes they invited... ... (no proof ever offered) In FACT…. Hobie claims that it was the dreaded boogeyman… the “OPEN CLASS “ that stole their sailors….

But once they went back to the Hobie OD way of life… All of the wayward souls returned home…. Oops… not according to Mike of New England…

But... what the heck... Its worth another shot... You will get it right this time….

I won the 2007 Capricorn Nationals. In fact, I think I'll win the 2008 Nationals tomorrow.

Defenders of the Hobie policy - please remember that the change effectively ended several fleets that began as Hobie Fleet ###, but were happily hosting open events. Why didn't they continue, you might ask? The division of brands tore them apart. Sound melodramatic? I witnessed it in the SE US, from South Florida to Virginia. To deny there was a negative impact is either dishonest or uninformed.

Attackers of the Hobie policy - please remember that the policy was enacted by people in the Class that genuinely believe it is a necessary thing for the health of their Class.

Both sides should be honest and admit to themselves there IS another side with concerns that are no-less legitimate. You can't fight exclusionary practices with intolerance, and you can't grow cat sailing without acknowledging there are several brands sailed by people who love them.

Yeah, Mark - three F18 "nationals" is poor class planning, plain and simple.

On topic - applaud the H16s sucess in making the list, work together to get more cats on there if you think that is important. No reason As and F18s can't get there in a year or three - except apathy.

Amen!

Sounds like the strategy boils down to

1) Blame the Hobie class
2) Complain on internet forum
3) Do nothing

Good plan guys. Good luck with that.

Mark,

So how many boats were at the IRC "Class" Nationals? I didn't make the top 25. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I thought all the boats you took the time to list were OD classes??? Maybe I should have put one of these <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> at the end of No. 2 Actually, it WAS mean spirited and really can only be construed, in this context, as a direct gouge at cats racing Handicap and that's not where my thoughts were primarily directed. My apologies.

Every boat has its bright spots and drawbacks, let the high points AND the sheer numbers of racers be the attractor. I'm speaking in general terms (I promote the H16 on the local level and race the dead boat on the National level). As far as that dead boat goes it didn't fair too bad in '05 and '06 with (34) boats when the venue was close to the majority of racing population. We'll see how the numbers look in '08. It will be interesting to see to which "class" all these (H20) racers have gravitated to five years from now.

I didn't see any other cat classes on the top 25 list. "and get your class" (= F18, F17, F16, A class, N20, H16, insert YOUR class here) "Convert them" (= mono-hullers)

Wow, I'm glad I was raising kids and not racing prior to and during the Hobie edict times. Must have been ugly. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Im sure Mark is a really nice guy in person. Im still glad he lives in another state.

Happy New Year!

I have had bad hobie experience also. same "points regatta" BS basicly they didn't like getting there butts kicked by a first timer on a 1984 beat up 18. I got a 5th,3rd,2nd and 1st out of 4 races that day.six boats in the class. only to be diqualified at the end of the day, for not having trap wires and having a hobie bob on the mast. clearly a disatvantage to me. it would have been fine if they told me from the start i would be disqualified. i understand that. the funny thing is now years later the person whom complained now tries to sell us stuff and tell us his two cents and how great his hobie's are. Lee your story reminded me of why I don't race. The ORCA class is just as bad. With the BS they pulled that basicly made it finacially imposiable for me to race Newport to Ensenada. Altho my boat would have been exactly like a boat that was "Grandfathered" VIVA27. So my new boat a 1972 wooden c-class we will be out there. having fun and trying to make it go as fast as it can.

While I really enjoy the political, economic, and enviromental discussion. The anti-HCA or pro HCA stuff is really boring.

I'll agree. Why can't we limit it to your boat is too short, too long, too heavy, too fragile, antiquated, too expensive, not suited for that and/or dead and just leave it at that? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Good Point Rolf.

If you wanted an answer to the question
"What is your class doing to grow participation at the nationals?"

You would start with the Class President.


Tornado... Alain Dubec....
A class Bob Hodges.
Hobie 16 Bob Merrick
F18 Dan Delave
Shark Christina Perrin
Isotope Frank Meldau
Hobie 18 ???

Oops...
So, I asked an 18 sailor who went to their nationals this year. ... who is your class president ? leader? .... Ugh... don't have one!
Did you have a meeting of your class at the nationals .... Ugh No!
Could you answer the question.. What is your class doing to grow participation at the nationals?.... Ugh... probably nothing. but No... I could not answer.

Hobie 17
Hobie 20
Nacra 20 ???
Nacra F17 ???
F16???

I did not know and I could not find a name for any of these US classes either. Somebody is making stuff happen.. so there must be some leadership.

If John Williams and US Sailing wanted to hold a meeting of the class leaders of each class... and he reported that about half of the classes had no obvious representative leadership that could speak for their class.
How do you think they would view us?

A reality check is in order here and We should not kid ourselves that all is well. When you can't find a person... much less the individual that Rolf is describing. It is likely that you have problems.

Oh... right... that Olympic thing worked out so well for us.
Imagine that!

Karl has a good point. There is no way everyone on this site is ever going to have a Kumbaya epiphany any time soon regarding the HCA policy, whether it stays, goes or changes to something new.

I enjoy my family, my Hobie family, racing my Hobie Cat and running races. Unfortunately, I don't have unlimited free time, so I'm not able to promote every class of boat out there, so I'll continue to promote Hobie Cat racing.

If someone needs my help to run a regatta (of any type of boat), I'm there and will work like a dog to make sure you have great racing.

But don't ask me to promote your boat ahead of mine, or alongside mine, I'm not asking you to do that.

Mike

Mark: FYI
http://www.formula16.org/content/view/34/52/lang,en/

all it takes is two clicks after going to formula16.org

Class Strength depends on the efforts of the local sailors and volunteers. See http://www.div4.hobieclass.com/ Check the tenative 2008 schedule. Would be hard to be more open or inclusive than this plan. As to who is the "Class Leaders" in HCA, click on the NAHCA link, everyone is listed, even with their pictures. Step up volunteer, take part, you will be suprised at the results. Right now we are planning the expanded Youth program for 2008, and our participation at the Seattle Boat Show later this month. Will assist at the Hobie Cats Northwest Booth, Sail Sand Point Booth, Video presentations at both, plus Boat Show Seminars as guest speakers.

Caleb Tarleton

That is just the thing about Hobie that bothers some of us, isn't it.

First of all the Tiger is an F18 and not a Hobie OD class, always has been so why have they split off and formed they own rival class with rival championships to the F18 class ?

Secondly has anybody counted the number of different Hobie boats ?

There are 20 hobie beach cat designs that were launched in last 35 years, which other catamaran manufacturer even comes close to that number ?

Hobie accuses other classes of doing stuff that they feel are perfectly acceptable when they do it themselves.

Wouter

Till not too long ago it was perfectly obvious who was leading the F16 class and ever since I made room for somebody else I've been a little dismayed at how invisible our official presence has become.

So indeed Mark you are completely right in this respect.



With respect to




I have a completely different take on things and have had so for years.

I think we should all put ourselfs in great soup (handicap racing) and share as much events as we can. Look for boats that are up to date and able to catch the imagination of new blood and advice every potential buyer of the advantages and drawbacks.

Actually, I WANT to be beaten by say a Hobie 16 sailor in an open handicap race. Makes me try harder next time to stay ahead and it will give that H16 crew a major two thumbs up to have beated an F16 ! Larger fleets are more fun, 6 boat fleets are just BS. During my tenure we have actively invited other classes and designs to share a race course/event with us. In some cases we actually did, I refer to the annual A-cat/F16 invitational in Gulfport and the combined F16/FX-one event in the UK. I can only say that these events have been beneficial for us and I don't see the A-cats impacted negatively by sharing an event with us.

And I've found that honesty last the longest so lying about your class gets you nowhere in the long run.

On top of this we should organise ourself under one umbrella organisation and work together to get as large a foot print as we can in relation to our numbers.

In my opinion, everything Hobie corp does is in direct opposite to what is needed and described above. Anybody else wonder why the FX-one is being upstaged the world over by a bunch of amateurs on F16's ?

Alot of times the truth is somewhere in the middle, in a few cases it is not.

Wouter

Wrong again, Wout. Tigers were designed to be F-18 compliant, but they have also been their own OD class since the beginning. In fact, they are a ISAF International Class, separate and a apart from the F-18.

Back to a comment that Mark made re: leaders.

The Hobie Class of North America represents all active Hobie One-Design classes in our region. That includes Bravo, Wave, 14, 14T, 16, Getaway, 17, FX-One, 18, Tiger and 20. (There is a separate class association for the Wave with different class rules - that is a can of worms best not opened on this forum.) The strength of the Hobie Class isn't that there's just one leader - there are many:

Bob Merrick
Chris Wessels
John Mork
Rich McVeigh
Paul Ulibarri
Lori Mohney
. . . and the list goes on and on.

The bottom line is - what have YOU done for YOUR class lately?

(Other than whine about the Hobie One-Design policy on an Internet forum?)

And that parthian shot is supposed to quiet things down and make readers accept the rest of your statement? It takes two to keep an argument going.

I don't think anyone would argue that we need some distillation of the class'. Just my opinion but I think everything needs to gradually work towards formula class's. I don't think there will be much of a resurgence of 14 foot cats, (except for perhaps youth models), so that really leaves us with Acat,F16, F18, F20, Tornado. And I'm hoping for a F17 class as well. The manufactures can build what they want to fit some simple rules. Chances are the H16 will out last most of us. You still have room for one design sailing.

Maybe the approach would be to allow Formula class boats at Hobie OD regatta's but just not have it count for points to a championship? You could win the battle just not the war? I'm just throwing out ideas.

Continuity works in just about every other type of non-handicapped racing from bikes to cars to aircraft. Almost everyracing class is limited to physicall dimensions and engine displacement. The formula class's do basically the same thing. The down side of one design racing is that it gives you the illusion that it is a totally level playing field. Someone will always have better equipment, or a better setup plus you still have to operate it well. I'm sure that cat sailing would have the same result. X brand boat is better at this, Y brand boat is better at that.




I do?!!

Karl,

we have discussed just that approach here in Norway. We took it as far as considering having only three classes. 16footer, 28 footer and 60 footer. The tought have some merit in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong. I race OD. And at the moment I race OD against myself because I have the first of my class in my area. But I do like one design, but I also like the idea of formula racing. My first exposure to handicap racing wasn't very pleasant. Twice I got really good position for starts, and twice I was headed up by more modern boats that could point substantially higher. Plus being in my 2nd year racing it was borderline scary having I-20's, F18's, and other spin boats come up from behind at nearly twice the speed downwind. That is my major complaint. But now I have a boat that points like crazy with a chute. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey Karl dont you like seeing all those guys mentioned by Wouter, <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />



They must just be breathing down your neck, Karl. The world over, HAHAHAHAHA. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
It is you and me and a couple others so far here, and i have never seen a F16. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Read my statements again Matt.

Actually the Tiger started out as the Alado F18 and was designed by a company unrelated to Hobie. Hobie bought the building rights and Hobienized it, renaming it the Tiger. At that time it was still a F18. Then Hobie corp decided to dilute the F18 class by forming a OD Tiger class as well.

Something Hobie (crowd) always claims other builders are doing, but they have done more often themselves.

To make things worse the Tiger never remained a True OD as each 1 or 2 years the Tiger rules would be adjusted to allow any new devellopment that occured in the F18 class. The famous st, stx, new rudders, selftacker, snuffer, etc issues.

The Tiger class has always been an OD class IN NAME ONLY.

And who gives a ^&@#(# about ISAF recognation anyway these days. Another paper tiger thing if you ask me.

Wouter

Ahhh, but that was because you were simply not good enough to qualify for the Alter Cup 2007 event.

Come back when hobie has suppled 11 FX-ones for some future Alter Cup.

Hell, come back when the FX-one's have held their very first official US OD event even. And please do have more then 3 boats attending.

Wouter

"Ask not what Sailing can do for you, but what YOU can do for Sailing"

Actions speak louder that words.

North American Hobie Class Association Division 4 2008 Tentative Division 4 Regattas






TENTATIVE ( updated 12/27/07 )

Date
Event
Location
Type

Jan 12
HOBIE CAT REGATTA
Lake Coeur d'Alene
Fun Sail

Jan 18-21
Youth Multi Champ
Long Beach, Ca, Ca
US Sailing

February
Penguin 1
Sail Sand Point
Fun Sail

March
Penguin 2
Sail Sand Point
Fun Sail

April 4, 5, 6
Potholes Warm Up
Potholes Reservoir
Fun sail/Open

April 22-26
Alter Cup
Gulfport, Fl, Fl
US Sailing

April 26, 27
Flights of Spring
Jericho, Vancouver BC
Open

May 3
Fast and Fun
Kirkland, Wa,
Waves

May 10
Hobie 101
Sail Sand Point
Hobie

May 24, 25
Splash
Sail Sand Point
Hobie Points

May 31, June 1
Live on the Edge
Fern Ridge, Eugene
Open Multi

June 5-8
Canadian Grand Prix
Comox, BC,
Open

June 13, 14
Hobie Cat Distance
Coeur d'Alene
Fun Sail

June 21, 22
Jericho
Vancouver, BC,
Hobie Points

July 12, 13
Kits Invitational
Vancouver, BC,
Open

July 12, 13
Sudden Valley
Lake Whatcom, Wa., .
Hobie Points

July 19, 20
Oak Harbor
Oak Harbor, Whidby
Hobie Points

July 26,27
Summer Celebration
Sail Sand Point
Waves/H16 Youth

August 2, 3
Quinault
Lake Quinault, Wa., .
Hobie Points

August 9, 10
Skamokawa
Skamokawa, Wa., .
Hobie Points

August 9,10,11
HOBIE ISLAND SAILING ADVENTURE
Coeur d'Alene River Swan Lake


August 23, 24
Harrison
Harrison Hot Springs, BC
Hobie Points

August 25-29
Nationals 17/18/Tiger
Harrison Hot Springs, BC
Hobie Points

Sept 6, 7
Chelan Annual Regatta
Chelan, Wa.
Open

Sept 5-12
Hobie 16 NA
Clear Lake, Iowa
Hobie Points




Sept 20, 21
BBOD
Bellingham Bay
Open

Sept 20, 21
Alter Cup Qualifier
BYC, Bellingham Bay
US Sailing

Oct 18, 19
Pumkin Bowl
Vancouver, BC,
Open

Nov 1, 2
Bluenose
Vancouver, BC,
Open






APRIL-OCT., 2008
110 "HOBIE WAVE BASIC LEARN-TO-SAIL COURSES
Lake Coeur d'Alene
Fun Sail



























<>





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H17Cat,

Out of 29 events on the schedule, only 10 look like they are points events actually put on by Div 4. There are another 10 "open" events where you are just leaching off of other folks who are nice enough to open their regattas to you. But you don't return the favor by inviting others to your regattas.

Doesn't that embarrass you?

Actually, some of those classes contacts are listed at the USSailing.org website under

http://www.ussailing.org/odcc/classresults.asp

You must not have looked too hard.

The Hobie class has about ten years of credit to use up before anyone should even think of being embarrased.

Hey leave the PT out of this! And choose your figures of speech more carefully <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In the list Caleb sited there are 25 events that are proposed for the Northwest. This is the Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Brittish Columbia area. All usually within a 3-5 hour drive for most folks.

Of those,
8 are Hobie Points
6 are put on by Yacht Clubs
3 are organized by sailing centers
7 are non hobie points events oganized by hobie members
1 US Sailing Alter Qualifier

The majority of the events are organized by the cat sailors here who happen to be in division 4.
So i would say the local sailors in the area Caleb is talking about are doing all that they can to increase cat sailing in general.


And of those events listed four are focused as youth events.
Potholes Warm Up- youth fun sail
Hobie 101-Hobie Seminar and a Youth Clinc
Summer Celebration- Youth Only Regatta
Oktoberfest- Youth Only Regatta

I think we have to see this as moving forward.

While we're listing the 16 NAC's in Clear Lake, Iowa, let's list the 20 Nationals in Yankton, South Dakota
2008 H20 NAC NOR

I'm embarassed for anyone ignorant enough to call out Caleb. Unbelieveable...

Anyway, back to the original point of the thread, wasn't the original question something along the lines of: How is it that the Hobie 16 class is the only cat class on the list?

When you look at it that way, whether HCA helps ANOTHER cat class or not is really not the issue, is it? If your boats and organizations are so much better, why aren't they on the list? Year after year we hear these claims and complaints, and year after year our numbers thrive and others don't. Are we perfect? Of course not, but it seems pretty obvious which organization works.

Mike

Hey now! Don't be dragging trivial things like the success's of the HCA into this discussion!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

OK, and this has been discussed before but...let's look at the successes of the other classes on the list, disregarding they are not cats.

Thistle for one. Check out their web site Thistle Class Association click on the contacts, and fleet listings, there's LOTS of names available for contact. I've crewed and helmed a Thistle last summer and I wasn't impressed with its performance, it's NOT an exciting boat. There are only 4,000 of them in existence yet must be 80 or 90% of them are being raced. Results? Big fleets. Regardless of the boat, big fleets are exciting. The Thistle guys love to take our H16 for a spin and are very open minded and inquisitive about cats. They have their other "toys", 5o5, Lasers, but they race Thistles. They've also chosen another, less expensive, "class" boat to boost membership in our club, Flying Scot. Big established fleets in our area.

Pardon me for being a broken record but, the 18 is the boat I like, 20 is the boat we race. The average fleet size of regattas we raced this year was probably 11 to 12 boats. Had to travel a quite a few miles to get there, but it was worth the trip. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

1) H16 58.00
2) H20 29.33
3) H17 27.33
4) H14 22.00
5) F18 help...what are the results for '06? '05=20 '07=22?
6) Wave - no updates after '04
7) TheMightyHobie18 16.33
8) F17 14.33
9) N20 10.00
10) missing a Cat class?

No jabs, but it was difficult to get other than Hobie info, double check the Performance numbers.

This is just plain ignorance!

Meaning, that I'm not calling you stupid. Just that you don't have your facts straight.

When did supporting an event held at a Yacht Club become leaching?
I sure don't feel like I'm leaching when I hand them my check.
I look at this as a win-win. It provides more both sides the opportunity to educate themselves. The multihulls get to see and interact with a club. The monohulls get to see a cat's speed and meet the sailors.
Wow, that's just crazy. Almost as crazy as the ski resorts allowing snowboarders to pay for a lift ticket. Damn those snowboarders. Leeching off the ski resorts.

We're operating under the premise that what's good for the sport will be good for our choice of boat too. Which just happens to be a Hobie. The focus is on outside exposure and youth particapation.

Wouter and Mark Schnieder make valid points and you would be well advised to listen to them. I have been racing Hobies since the early 1980's. I started on a H-16/#572 and then purchased a H-18/#9458 in early 1985 which I still have and dearly love. I have had my issues with Hobie Corp and the Hobie Class Association. But lets get back to Marks original question “How do you grow a class” by looking at some of the experiences I’ve had. Please do not shoot the messenger, but try and listen to the message.

My credencials are that since 1984 I have attended 150-200 Hobie Points Regattas and a similar number of Open Class events, being a member of Hobie Fleet #54 and CRAC.

My H-16 was indestructible., and great fun with its McGibbons sails. Then I was given a ride on a H-18mag …. my H-18 carries “red foam” 84’serial numbers on 87’/88’ replacement hulls . By the end of the first season the hulls were cracked under the lips for 3’ with most of the crack in front of the crossbar. I put up with a leaking , creased, soft boat trying to race it, taking me 2yrs of wrangling to get them to finally replace the hulls. Then they wanted to pro-rate them as 3yr old hulls. And the sails …. Why is it that I needed to have separate sets of battens for each mainsail??? Could it be that each one varies by sometimes as much as 4” in cord length! (I still have the sails … does anyone want to place a bet on whether I am correct or not.).

Please note that I just finally purchase a new set of H-18 sails: that Matt Bounds saw at this years NAs, and I was very pleased with the level workmanship and shape. But ….I ordered a plain white set, no numbers , no H . I wanted to use MY numbers that I’ve had and am known by … call me superstitious…. Actually my boat has all blue trim and originally had “blue Hawaii” sails and I wanted blue numbers and a blue H. No cost of ten numbers or installation costs thereby increasing your profit margin ….. and you wanted to charge me 30$ for NOT installing them, what marketing genius is that!!!! We get that by continually numbering the replacement sails you inflate the class’s apparent size … but us old timers like our numbers.

Let’s list how many times the H-18 class has been subdivided by newly designed Hobie products starting with: H-18sx, H-21, H-20 that had the same crew weights and similar adjustments. Combined that with the fact that the H-18 sailors could not get any changes or improvements to the H-18 because the NAHCA held its meeting at the H-16 Nationals. …. Do you think that there was any H-18 sailors at the H-16 Nationals ??? The last straw for me was that we had proposed that the crew weight for the H-18 class be raised to 310 or 315lbs to gain some separation from the H-16 class. This was voted down even though the majority of the H-18 sailors voted for it. This caused me to take my H-18 apart and sail my P-19. When Wally Meyers saw me at the Wildwood Classic in 06’ he shook my hand and said “Harry, how long has it been since you’ve been at a points regetta? 10yrs??? “. He was right, Wildwood 96” was my last points regetta

I am a member of HCA-NA currently, who is the H-18 class captain??? Bob Merrick is the H-16 class captain, not my H-18 class … or H-17 ….or H-20 …or Hobie Tiger … The impression I always have gotten is that we are “the red headed stepchildren” in the organization. Each class of boats should have a National and Divisional class captain and the classes should be able to propose, vote, and implement changes if it only affects that individual class. All issues that cross class lines must be approved by the whole membership. Simple.

And Hobie Corp must be diligent about QUALITY … QUALITY …. QUALITY … Gentleman, I can place in front of you a H-18 that weighs 395 lbs and another that weighs 435lbs !!!! That is One-design ??? And most recently, I am very familiar with Danny Flannigans boat, the conditions at the time and personally inspected the wreckage …. The port hull failed under load because there was poor surface prep of the mating surfaces thereby leading to eventual catastrophic hull failure by the delamination of the foredeck cleanly from the “hull” portion with no evidence of bonding between the two surfaces. … Us “old timers” know what we were looking at and you have used up a lot of credibility in Div 11 with that one. And the boat is still not correct , I suspect the replacement hull weighs differently from the remaining original hull, the mast is tweaked and the sails stretched from the wreckage recovery stage (… you did well boys… What did I read about ten years of credibility??? It gets used up very quickly with decisions like those)

So how do you grow a class? First, start with a manufacture that constructs the same quality product all the time, every time! ( and stands behind their product no question asked) Secondly, Have a class association that makes it possible for all to participate in and make decisions particularly those that effect them or their classes; and those that it doesn’t effect don’t get a vote. Be inclusive wherever possible, not exclusive.

How to destroy a class? HOBIE ONLY

One side comment, Wouter Hijink, Mark Schneider, and Matt Bounds have all filled out their profiles for example. Some of you taking potshots from the sidelines haven’t, choosing to hiding behind first name only profiles. I respect gentlemen who stand-up and identify themselves and their position, even if I totally disagree with them. You others, I call you WEANIES.

Wouter, Mark and Matt it would be my pleasure to buy you a beer (or other beverage) the next time we see each other. Travel Safe Gentlemen

Harry Murphey

Nope.

Just wanted to show what can be done with a group of dedicated Sailors. As Mike Hensel, Our Area L Rep on the US SAILING Multihull Council noted, most of the Events were created and will be run by our Area Multihull Sailors, most of which happen to be Hobie sailors. Mike was the leader in putting together this schedule. The few Open Regattas run by Yacht Clubs were happy to have additional sailors to make their events successful.

See the Division 4 Website http://www.div4.hobieclass.com for more information on what this group is doing.

Like mentioned before, step up, volunteer,and take part, you will be surprised with what will happen.

Caleb Tarleton
NAHCA, Div. 4, Fleet 95
Sail Sand Point Board Member
NAMSA Board Member
US SAILING Multihull Council
Youth Multihull Championship Committee
(and anything else that promotes our sport)

Harry
Thanks for the well thought out comments. I've written some thoughts on the Hobie Cat forum where I think we could continue the discussion in a more focused way if you are so inclined.
Bob Merrick
HCA Chairman

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?p=42609#42609

Bob,

Thank you for you reply. I've been trying to register for the Hobiecommunityforum lately as I have just gotten a computer (I know it is hard to believe). It would be my pleasure to meet with you for beverages/grub as we are not too far apart, I live just outside of Philly Pa. If you wish please call "Rondo" Laporta and he will give you my cell# and we can talk. (I could not send you a personal message)

And I do believe the H-18 is the best combined beach cat/racer built!!!
Sincerely,
Harry Murphey

I don't race, but I'd like to someday. I do love attending regattas, and have some sense of the work involved in putting them on. What I have witnessed here in New England, is a real fragmenting of the fleets since the "Hobie Edict". In fact Fleet 28 is dead. Much of the volunteer energy for our regattas in the late 90s was from people that were sailing Nacras. They were far from leeches! Many no longer feel welcome at "fun sails" put on by my Fleet! I'm trying to work on that! I have to say that for me personally, it's been a big loss to lose those folks. Harry, I don't know you, but your post has given you big credentials in my book. Thankfully my quality issues weren't with a boat, but your criticism should really be listened to! I can tell you from helping Bob and the gang weigh boats, at the '06 H16 Nationals, that there is a very large variation in boat weights. I don't think it has to do with water retention at that level. That said, we're still trying to maintain and grow our fleets, and sport. I don't have the time to give these days, but I have tremendous respect, and gratitude for those that do, like Bob, Mike, Matt, and Caleb. These guys have been stepping up to the plate for years! Caleb and his club have done what many of us are really struggling to do, GROW their fleets! We should all try to learn from this generous man! On this forum, you can see many people volunteering their time and energy to make what happens happen. They all echo each other when criticized, and they are right in doing so. If we don't like what we see, it is our responsibility to get involved. Look at people like Rick and Mary, Barb Short, John Williams, Jake Kohl, Rick Bliss... Thanks for letting me rant. Brian McCarter, Fleet 448

I just love the line, "maybe they would come back (to Hobiedom) on a Tiger??" Let me explain my situation and this will show you how misquided you are in your thinking. The reason I moved from a H-16 to a H-18. At the time I wieghed 225lbs, and the crew wieght is what??? (285lbs-225lbs)= a six year old!!! So I moved on to a boat with a larger performance envelope, a H-18; Since to be competitive on a H-16 you have to 285- 305lbs and I was never going to be competitive in that class. So I got a some novel ideas: lets have a H-16/2 with a H-18 type boom including downhaul, mast rotation,and outhaul adjustment with a vertical-cut dacron sail to increase the performance envelope. Or you can just buy a H-18!!! It's crew wieght is what??? 295lbs currently??? And I don’t want a spin boat for buoy racing so the Tiger is not a option. If I had my option it would be a new H-18mag!!!!

Now I race currently with my niece Megan (12yrs old), and she will not race a H-16, "Uncle Harry there is nothing for me to do, its so boring (I'm just a sandbag). And this year she wants to get back on the P-19mx she sailed on at 10 & 11 years old!!! I'm just waiting for her to grow a little more because at 300lbs crew wieght the P-19mx is a wee-bit overpowered when the wind hits 12+ knots for us. The reason she likes the Hobie events is because of George Kunney, Dave Raliegh, and all the other people. She is still stoked about beating Dave and George in the last race at the last regetta (Sharkey's Cup @ Rehobeth)and getting the horn/gun!!! This year she goes to sailing school on a LASER as there are no schools for multihulls (currently). I believe Mark S made this same point

Why do I own a P-19??? Because when I purchased it in 1991 the first batch of H-20 Miracles was being RECALLED because of hull failures at the rear crossbars because of poor assembly/workmanship!!! (Do any of you remember this, how about you, Rich McVeigh, I seem to remember you having one) Remember, I had been through the "RED FOAM" H-18 issues and I do not like repeating mistakes. I have watched Hobie Corp make the same mistakes time ... after time .... after time ... Hobie Quality??? I laugh "french-like" in your direction !!!! ( I apologize to you Frenchman out there) Now do you understand why I’m so interested in Danny Flannigans issues ??? and his 1-2 yr old boat. Hobie just repeated their old mistakes AGAIN !!!! Remember: QUALITY … QUALITY …. QUALITY !!!!!

Now Matt Bounds: I looked at your list of HCA-NA people, lets see, Bob Merrick: H-16 , Rich McViegh: H-16, Paul Ulibarri: race committee ( and an excellent one at that, Thanks Paul) Chris Wessels: H-16? , John Mork: H-16? , Lori Mohney: H-16 or Tiger ? Do we see a trend? Now are you beginning too understand why the rest of us are just plain fed up. I am just tired of beating my head against the H-16 power structure/elitism that I percieve and see in HCA-NA . Who knows if I’ll re-up this year. I need to see some changes!!!

Next: “ Unfortunately the decision (Hobie Only) came 3 or 4 years too late” . POORLY THOUGHT OUT DECISIONS ARE NEVER TOO LATE ….. BUT ARE TOO EARLY!!!

And the evidence is that is was a very poor decision, please, why don’t you count the number of lost regattas, in SE USA, New England, the Midwest …. There has been time enough to see if this “Hobie Only” program is working …. IT’S NOT! It is time to “can it” while there is something to salvage!!!

Note: Matt, keep working on the youth program, that is our future. Please remember what I said at the H-18NAs and Rehobeth about the youths at other Championships other then the Youths Championships. At the H-18NAs by my count 1/3 of the boats participating had a youth on board. Give me two or three more years and Megan will be competing as “skipper” most likely on a H-18 at the NAs , remember by 12 yrs old she has outgrown the H-16 already and will not go back. And I know of several others (kids) with the same opinion …. They are smart and technically inclined, (they are better educated at their age then I was!)

Note 2: to Bob M , Danny’s issues were solved too Hobie Corps satisfaction … not his. If I may use an example: Hobie Corp is pulling a “FIAT” , you remember FIAT cars, they blamed the customers for their quality issues …. And what happened to FIAT???? One bad quality issue can cost you immencely more in future sales then the replacement cost of the original. Marketing studies in the auto industry show that it is greater then 18 to 1. And all the resulting damage to the mast/sails is because of the original hull failure at 1 mile out at sea where the priority was to save Ryan and Dannys lives. Hobie Corp should replace the WHOLE boat. If it was a wrecked car what would you like to be done with it??? Me … Total It !!!
I am at your disposal sir, please contact me at your convience.

Sincerely
Harry Murphey

HobieZealot wrote

Once again what is YOUR CLASS doing to grow YOUR CLASS?
Anyone.....Buller.....Buller?

The HC ASSOCIATION... is an association of OD classes. Those guys are doing their job... (lord knows I have one difference with them but that is NOT the point here... please stop the silliness or start your own thread)

I am still waiting along with HobieZelot to hear anything from a OD class!

My initial question was just focused on National Particpation as reflected by the survey... but heck... anything positive would be good to hear.

And don't say... I leave it up to my association...

That is a cop out... the usual definition of class... is those individuals who sail ONE type of boat that create amd follow a specfic set of rules to foster fair competition. Give Bob a call! take the job!

Where are the Nacra 20 and 17 fleets? What are they up to to grow participation at the nationals.

Are you guys planning on pinning it all on Jack Young, aka the association? It did not seem fair to lay it all on him in my last post.

Just to be fair to all guys, and not only pick on Hobie I have stated that I own a P-19mx. I am interested in attending the NACRA Nationals this year in Michigan. Will there be a class for me??? It seems to me that inorder to "build a class" you need to be invited to the parties.

And I'll state the same thing as I did before: I am NOT interested in a spin boat for closed course buoys racing, and will never purchase a boat for that purpose. I am very happy with my P-19mx sloop (as I am with my H-18mag sloop). Do you notice a trend?

What do we need to get that class going again???

Oh, I've tried posting a E-Mail at the website but I have "server" issues. Or am I being "shined on" since I do not have a nice new boat to play with?

Harry

I don't want to get in the way of a good rant, but:

Bob Merrick - H-16, H-14
Chris Wessels - H-20, H-16, H-14, Wave
John Mork - H-20, H-16, H14
PU - H-17 (retired)
Lori Mohney - H-16, former H-20
Myself - H-17, H-16, Tiger, H-14, former H-18

Steve Cooley (MUST429 on this forum) is hardcore H-18 (2nd at North Americans last year) and is the Division 5 Chair.

Strange as it may seem, the H-18 is still an ISAF International Class and changes in the class rules are controlled by the IHCA (not the North American HCA) and ISAF.

And watch out, Mork bought a 17 at the end of last season (another strong class in Div 14).

As you've said before Matt, the 18 is a (over minimum) weight tolerant boat and the 20 even more so (both 295# crew min). We're racing a '94 model at 305 to 310 and wish we weighed 330 plenty of times. OK, heard all the horror stories about the earlier 20's and transom problems. Ours is fine, we keep the beam bolts tight and watch for cracks (none yet). Doesn't George have a 20 as well as an 18?

Much gratitude for Wessels ('05 18/20 NAC, '06 14 NAC) and Mork ('06 18/20 NAC) and the countless others of both Divisions 7 and 14 who keep these events continuing on.

John Eaton
Hobie Fleet 297 - commodore
Hobie Division 14 - treasurer
Kansas Sailing Association - vice commodore

Hi Matt,

Did you just prove my point? On examination of the list you posted, everyone except Paul Ulibarri, sails on a H-16, some have a singlehand boat,(for when they don't have crew I quess) and a few have a H-20 also, but are there any active H-18 sailors on your origonal list? So 5 of 6 sail a H-16, that is that is 83.3% of the leadership are H-16 sailors. Now part of that is our (H-18s) fault because we haven't stepped up to the plate and taken our turns at bat.

I just sent a E-Mail to Mr Bob M. could you please E-Mail him and ask him to copy you as you do not have a E-Mail address in your profile. Look at whos name I mention.

Great job at the H-18NAs this year, I will be proud in the future to say "I raced a Championship with Paul Ulibarre as PRO" and you were part of that. And as I said earlier I will gladly buy you a beverage of your choice at our next meeting.

Does the H-18 need to be an International class anymore? When was the last International Championship? Maybe it time to do our own thing and show IHCA the door on this one. I know that I'm not planning to go to an International event anytime soon on a H-18.

As for Mr Cooley, that bum ... actually Steve is welcome to borrow anything from my sailbox anytime!!! And my cooler is always open to Steve. It was my pleasure to have my butt kicked by Steve at the H-18NAs this year.

But Steve; Megan and I beat George and Dave in the last race at the last regetta this year, Matt Bounds may have witnessed it, we are starting to get "in the groove". And Glenn and I are assembling a H-18 with NEW sails for Glen and Ian next year. The sail # will be 1400 of course, we are calling her "the Phoenix" as she is assembled from parts. How was the trip to Miami??? Could we talk you into coming east??? If you fly in we will find you a boat to use.

Travel Safe Gentlemen
Harry

To answer those particular questions/statements, I would say YES the H-18 should remain an international class. Lets not move backwards anymore than we already have. The last World Championships sailed on the H-18 was in January of 2005 in Melbourne Australia, I was there. The 2007 H-18 NA's was just that, a North American's with three teams from Canada.
The 2008 NA's is a North American's, not just a National's.
The Canadian's are hoping there will be more than a few boats from the USA. So, Harry, you HAVE and ARE Planning to attend International Events on your Hobie 18

I have resisted weighing in on this discussion thus far, If you go back and read the original post, it was more a call to strengthen individual classes, not an invitation to bash Hobiedome. I disagreed vehmenently with the "Hobie Edict" at the time it was enacted. I still think it was a poorly thought out solution to the problems that existed at the time. Fixing the problems that exist today is an equally difficult problem. Trying to impose a one size fits all solution to an organization as widely divergent as the Hobie Class Association is almost impossible. What works in Colorado will not work in the North East, what works in the North East may not work on the Gulf Coast of Texas, and California is a completlely different bucket of worms. Open minds, communication and calm discussion are the keys. Trying to resolve it on a forum like this will not be productive.

Stephen
Hobie 18

EXACTLY!

For some other successful examples:
The Hobie 16 CLASS organized and had a trailer built to get boats back and forth to major national events and they used it to get boats to the Nationals on the West Coast.

The Lightning class provides a boat (s) for charter for a year to a new team to get you to their nationals.

The 505 class uses Sailing Anarchy Forum to get their class out. They ( a specific high profile class member) CALLED YOU OUT… if you were not registered… Heck… they TELL YOU to SELL YOUR BOAT to someone who will race it. Or put the pressure on for you to charter it to somebody who will race it.

In My Class, the Regional A Class Fleet Chairman, strongly promoted participation for the nationals to members of the Bristol YC and Lake Hopactong YC as well as to the Florida Gulf port fleets for the Nationals on the Chesapeake Bay. He busted his buns finding sponsors as part of the regatta management team.

Sounds like there is some recognition that some of the Hobie 18 members might step up and address the issue off line. an iniative strongly supported by Bob Merrick Terrific!

On the other hand... it is frequently forgotton to let the rest of the world know what exactly you have decided to do ... or not do. Growing your class involves letting the world know what you are up to.... As the Thistle comment by flatlander noted... the boat is a PIA to sail... BUT... they all racing... So people continue to join the class because that is how they PR themselves to the world.

The 18 Class goals could be very different from the Hobie 16 goals vis a vis NAs. Just an idea... It may make more sense for a class to say... "We are concentrated on both of the coasts. Rather then a North Americans every year... we will host East and West Coast champinoships every year and a North Amercan championship every other year alternating between the coasts.

Setting it out as goal would allow the class members to organize life to support the class effort more vigorously.

As must429 said.... every class situation is different. Communication is key... I would only add... let the rest of the community know what you are up to.

Back to the thread...

What could your class do to support national attendance?
Are you willing to do it?

Hmm! I am a bit late getting into this thread.., sorry.
What info did you get and from where? The Wave has been extremely active over the past 10 years east of the Mississippi and appears to be gaining traction in the northwest.
Mary and I belong to two yacht clubs: Put-in-Bay YC on Lake Erie in the summer and Upper Keys Sailing Club in the Florida Keys in the winter.
When we started sailing Waves at PIB there were four of us. Mary, myself and my brother and sister-in-law. We now have grown to over 10 boats. This past summer we got in 68 series races, not counting regattas.

In the Keys, we started out with Mary and I, my son, and now his wife and Chip and Barb Short. We are now up to 15 boats and again do series races. Last winter we got in 60 series races, not counting regattas.

Both fleets have grown quickly and are attracting more and more sailors: new, young, old, women, men, et al.
And both fleets are getting tremendously competitive.., no one dominates. Our PIB guy, new to cats a couple of years ago, won the nationals last year. My daughter-in-law, new to sailing three years ago, took third overall in the nationals and first in Womens.
In both locations starts are as if you were in a major regatta -- great sailing!

And around the country we have some great pockets (fleets) that are also growing:
Sandy Hook, NJ
Duck, NC (Outer Banks)
Put-in-Bay, Ohio (Lake Erie)
Pensacola Beach, FL
Melbourne, FL
Ruskin, FL (on Tampa Bay)
Indianapolis, IN (new fleet just starting up)

This past year we had the following National Series Regattas:
North Americans
North Coast Championships
East Coast Championships
Atlantic Coast Championships
South Coast Championships
Nationals
Tradewinds Series

While many do not think the Wave is a "REAL" boat, it is the simplest boat and the most one-design anywhere -- it is the jockey, not the horse that does well.
And it is a class that is growing tremendously.
It can be your mainstay (many teams, i.e., H16 sailors that were getting to heavy or old, perhaps) split up and get two Waves,
or it can be your second boat. Keep on sailing as a team, and each sail your own Wave at Wave events.
Rick

One of the reasons that monohullers tell me that they disrespect cat sailors is that we don't give back. We go to their events, but rarely help out or put on events for them.

Entrance fees cover very little of what it takes to put on a regatta. Most of the actual cost of putting on a regatta is donated labor.

Put it this way, say there are two ski areas where the labor is all volunteer. At one area the volunteers are all skiiers, but they welcome both skiiers and snowboarders. At the other the volunteers are all snowboarders, and only snowboarders are welcome. Don't you think the skiiers would be unhappy?

Sorry for the threadjack, I'll shut up now.

Hi Steve,

I stand corrected, I quess I AM a International sailor! I hadn't thought of it that way. I quess I was blinded by the fact its the HCA-NA: it one organization, there is no seperation beween the Canadians and Americans above the Divisional level.

I don't mean to sound like I'm "Hobie Bashing" In several other threads I have praised the H-18 (and even the H-16) as being the best beach cats. But over the years I have seen some really stupid things done. So much so that I actually took my H-18(mag) apart and put it behind the shed in the back yard for almost 10 yrs. I was just too hardheaded to sell her, she (my H-18)has seen me through some awesome weather and GREAT times. But as the quote goes "those that do not study history a destined to repeat it". I just do not like to repeat mistakes over and over again, I just can not afford the time or it financially. So, thats why I am so vocal at times.

The problem seems to be that in order to get any changes to the H-18 you need to go through IHCA and that is problematic if only for the enertia of the larger organization. At the H-18NAs this year remember our issues, mine of the little pullies on my trap system on the bungies at the hull pass-through fittings and you with your mainsheet blocks. We both agreed that neither would affect the boats performance/speed but were only for the crews comfort or to extend the life of the bungie cords. But some persons, who will remain nameless, wanted to "rattle" our cages and try and gain an advantage over us instead of trying to beat us on the race course. Why can't we get minor changes like those implimented???

I would like to go to Harrington BC but the reality for me is that it may cost too many$$$ and take too much time. For me here in DIV11 I calculate that it will be a 5 week cycle with shipping time (by container) included. The Div11 trailer will be needed for the Junior Championships and the H-16NAs in Clear Lake Iowa, and again the events are schedule too close together for the logistics required. We'll have to see ...

And this thread has made me aware personally that I have to be more involved, thats my responcablity!!!

Harry M

Harry,

There is a simple process to propose rule changes for the Hobie classes. Go to the IHCA website and post your proposed change. It will be circulated for comment and voted on. Look at all the Tiger changes through the years, they've all gone through the same process.

I was in NY, but never heard any discussion about the trap question. If you were certain that you met the intent of the rules, you could have used your trap system, and wait for it to be taken it to protest, where you would have either won, or would be able to get it appealed. One way or another, I'm sure it didn't affect anyone's ability to beat the other on the water, but you would have a final answer intead a lifetime of grumbling about it later...

EDIT: Strict adherence to our class rules is one of the strengths of the Hobie class. We don't expect this to make everyone happy either, but our numbers seem to indicate that it works for the majority.

Mike

Rick,

I went here Wave Results I didn't know where else to go (on the internet). Again, it took some effort to get what I listed.
Not that I think National results are an end all guage of the success of a class, with fuel costs so high, well advertised and attended regional events may be equally as productive.

Oh Mike,

You are asking me about one of those "stupid" things.

Once upon a time many years ago in the land of NJ, I brought two friends to the Wildwood Classic. They both had H-18mags and did mostly distance races on the Chesapeake and this was their first Hobie Points Regetta. So at the "Skipper's Meeting" we asked "would any of the other H-18s have an issue of us racing our (3) H-18 as magnums or did we need to remove our wings? No-one had any problems with our sailing as H-18mags in the H-18 class, so we thought. Upon racing this person came up to each of us AFTER a race and said "I protest you" and filed a protest. I will identify this person for you, "Gail Force", do any of you in Conn remember her??? Now since the race committee hadn't thought to post a notice on the "board" the protest was upheld and the three of us were DSQ'd. Now do you think my friends EVER attended another Hobie Points Regetta??? we packed up our boats and left!!! and they have never been back.

So we are at the H-18NAs and there is someone walking around inspecting the boats and saying " I can protest that(boat) ... oh, I can protest this(boat).... Now all the things they are picking out are very minor infractions that have NO effect on the boats performance or speed. In my case it was how I have my trap bungies rigged.

Note: there is a thread "Hobiecatcommunityforum H-18/H-18sx" with the question "How do you prevent cutting your Magnum Wing cover with the trap bungies" could someone paste this section over there because this is how you do it. I'm not registered for that forum ... yet)

So I have my trap system configured like this since the issue is the lack length (stretch) and resistance of the bungie. take (4)/side Harkem model 404 or 224 Blocks and tie them with 1/8 spectra to the Fore and Aft bungie tie off points under the gunwale along with attaching the other (2) by passing the spectra through the small through gunwale fittings (near the shroud) and tieing the two end together as short as possible. Take a piece of 3/16 Bungie and starting at the Fore Trap pass it through the block at the gunwale in front of the shroud, run it forward and around the block under the gunwale, then Aft to the Aft block and around it, returning through the block attached aft of shroud at the gunwale, attaching to the aft trap. OK?? this gives you enough stretch (20'/side of bungie) and reduces the resistance. It also removes the chaff point at the gunwale pass through. OK??? This makes it so the trap ststem will work with or without Wings, there is enough stretch that you do not need to rig the traps outside of the wings. Reach in, grab the trap ring, hook-up, go out!!!!

Now for the issue: the rule reads that the bungie "MUST" pass through the through gunwale fitting and no relocating/repositioning of the bungie is allowed. The intent is as I read it is you are not allowed to move the traps location by moving the through gunwale fitting. But technically my system passes the bungie through the block not the through gunwale fitting and it has moved by maybe 1" fore or aft depending on the trap. Note that the bungie will last for several seasons not just weeks.

So, lets invest a week off from work, a week of Hotel rooms ($$$), a entrance fee, gas/mileage on a truck (600miles)... And we are going to risk it in the "Protest Room" over a protest ....

I am 1/2 Scot/Irish, 1/2 German and ALL hard-headed. My ancesters were those guys who stripped naked, painted themselve "blue" grabbed a huge sword, and ran at you screaming to the heavens at the top of their lungs ...
Does the word conniption come to mind??? It is not pretty and you will know 3 states and 2 counties away that I am pissed off. And if I focus my energy on you ... you will not enjoy it. So I try to avoid situations envolving "sea lawyers" and what I consider CHICKENSH_T, OK???

Steve's situation was similiar in my opinion, but I will leave it to him to explain if he wishes.

Personally if I was on Race committee, I would have protested Gail on Poor Sportmanship, handed her entry fee back and sent her home. And I was not pleased with this individuals mindset at the H-18NAs.

I've been known to lend my competitors parts and fix their boats, holding up a race until they are ready. It is to me, more important to win on the water, NOT in the protest room, OK???

Harry Murphey

There's not a class in the world that allows you to break a rule if it's only a "minor infraction". Welcome to sailboat racing. Hell welcome to sports.

I don't want to nit-pick, but the x-country trailer had many more hands involved than just the 16 class. There were several Hobie dealers, Hobie execs, Tiger sailors, H 20 sailors, FX-1 sailors (others), many general members of Div 3 (and other divs), etc, etc. It was a true collaborative event to get that sucker built, and there are plans drawn up for another.

The trailer is capable of hauling many different sizes of boats, not just 16's.

The idea for the trailer is that it will be used as a long term intracontinental transport for many different types of Hobie events, wherever they spring up.

But the context of what you said was spot on, it is a successful example of strengthening a class/ classes.

Is that the trailer that fell victim to the wildfires?

Logistically the trailer has its drawbacks. For a large established fleet it works fine. Say four or five sailors, from a central division, want to use it to participate in a NAC coastal event. Drive to CA or NY and pick it up (who pays the fuel cost)? Bring it back then all drive from maybe four or five different cities to a "central" location? Compensate the person with the vehicle capable of towing that much weight for the fuel? And, unless it's a 12 passenger van, find your own way to the event (fly/drive)? For the biggest fleets (i.e. 204) I'm sure it's nice.

If there's that much money floating around, how about three or four used Waves and a trailer so it may travel around and be used for Hobie 101 days and the like?

Congradulations Mr Zealot, you have past the Bar , the Sea Lawyer Bar that is !!!

The reasons I have trap system are as follows: 1) it prevents the wing covers from being cut ($$$$$) by the bungie cord. 2) the bungie laa……asts a long time ($$) , sometimes two or three seasons by eliminating the major chaff point. 3) I can put my magnum wings on and off without having to redo the traps. I’ve even been known to throw my wings on and go for a “Sunset Sail” or even “Moonlight Sail” after the races on Saturday.

Now, do I gain an unfair advantage with that system? Gail only protested those that finished ahead of her!!! And didn’t bother with those that finished behind her. We were middle of the fleet finishers, she just happened to be alittle slower most of the time. And remember, she had her opportunity to speak up at the “Skippers Meeting” So what does that tell you??? And the competitor at the H-18NAs ????

That is exactly one of the major reasons I took my boat apart and put it behind the shed!!!
“SEA LAWYERS” I was doing 12-15 “Points Regettas /yr at the time!!!! And when it stops being “friendly” competition, people go away!!!

Now I have many more horror stories after doing this for so long, but I just do not want to get into them. I’m trying to explain to you what NOT to do …..But do the opposite!!!

Bob Merrick: I WILL re-up my HCA-NA membership this year, is Tara still handling it? I liked her. Thank You Sir

I am out of this thread , the points that needed to be made have been. And I have more pressing work …. like organizing a “Hobie Points Regetta” at my yacht club that has .... Sunfishes… Lasers … Windmills …. 420s …. Lightnings ….etc

Think about it gentlemen, please , think about it.

Oh, one last thing,
Mr Zealot you sir are a WEANIE … fill out your profile, sir. It is exactly that kind of behavior that gives us Hobie Catters a bad name and causes our fellow multihullers not to respect us!!! I PROTEST YOU!!!

Gentlemen,Til the Next Thread
Harry Murphey
Div 11, Fleet # 54 since 86’
CRAC member since 89’
Rock Hall YC member
HCA-NA member

Yah, I know I'm one opinionated hardheaded Scotch/Irish/German a--hole. I am what I am ... now where is that "blue "paint ....

Remember Fast and Fun? http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/fast&fun.htm

Great idea, but it is no longer around.

So, at Sail Sand Point in Seattle, www.sailsandpoint.org we have our own.
We now have six Waves and six Hobie 16's all donated. The boats are used in classes, as shown on the schedule, Hobie 101, and our local Fast and Fun events. They are also used in the Monday Night racing series, where new sailors are introduced to racing.

Back to building the classes, we start with getting the people of all ages and levels out on the water, then help them select the boat to sail. Waves are good to start on, then the Hobie 16 usually is the next step. The used H-16's are available at very low costs. Locally we have a strong H-16 and H-17 fleets. The H-18 fleet is still around, and the Tiger fleet is growing. We pair up the new sailors with experience sailors in each fleet. They help them set up the boats for racing, and give them tips on how to race, and go fast. There is also an active and growing A Cat fleet in the Northwest. The FX-1 fleet is still small, but growing also. We include Wave starts in our Hobie regatta's, it helps build our youth multihull program, and has provided new sailors to the other fleets.

To see how many sailors are active in the Hobie Cat racing, go to the 2007 standings on the Hobie site, and you will see them by name, and where they are racing.

You will also see the growth in Catamaran racing in our Div. 4, which has resulted in our hosting the 2008 Hobie North Americans Tiger, H-17 and H-18 in Harrison, BC, Canada. see http://www.div4.hobieclass.com

This all comes with a lot of dedicated sailors giving freely of their time and talent.

Caleb Tarleton

I don't know you Harry, but you sound like a hoot. Not sure how I missed you - I used to sail up your way on a 16 once upon a time. Still laughing tho, at that last post... I need a shirt made up or something...

"I PROTEST YOU!!!"
- H. Murphey, circa 2008


<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Harry,

There isn't anything in either of your last few posts that makes anything in my last post any less true or valid. You're (admittedly) throwing emotional garbage into this discussion, which doesn't help your case. I can say that because I have to work hard NOT to do that sometimes.

I can't imagine a reason in the world any 18 sailors would want to race against someone with wings boat-for-boat. Asking at a skippers meeting does not equate to properly changing the class rules. I'd be willing to bet that the class rules can't be changed at a points regatta. It would have taken you just a few minutes to remove those wings, right? Sometimes, you have to take responsibility for your actions.

I'm not a lawyer either, but the class rules are there to help us. There are proper avenues to have them changed. Even the H16 class has had recent changes, and most people would think that would never happen.

Membership info is on the website. I'll be looking for your application.

Mike

Can't believe no one jumped in here to clarify, but here's the rub.

Class rule changes are allowed per the RRS, J1.2(9) and J2.2(7). They have to be stated in the NOR and SIs. So, for ANY class, class rules can't be changed at the regatta, skipper's meeting, etc.

Moreover, per the ISAF Regulations, 26.5(f):

"To maintain its ISAF designation an International or Recognized Class shall... Not permit the organizers to amend, suspend or override the Class Rules in the Notice of Race or Sailing Instructions for Class events without the prior approval of the ISAF, a Class event being an event initiated and controlled by the Class/Owners Association without any alteration to the Class rules."

Again, not a lawyer, but that seems to indicate the Hobie class rules can't be changed for individual Class events (points regattas, championships) without a LOT of hoop-jumping. Obviously, this is only for the ISAF-recognized Hobie classes (Hobie Dragoon, 14, 16, 17, 18, Tiger).

To me, this is actually a good thing, imagine the mayhem if the rules changed every weekend. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Mike