Why are we different?

What makes sailing different? US Sailing announced today that it would not pursue the mandatory membership. I work in a field that involves me with many sporting organization. No swimmer on any of our swim teams my stick a toe in the pool until they are a member of US Swimming, no gymnastics team members may set one foot in the gym until they are a member of USA Gymnastics. For most of these kids (and adults on the masters swim team), they will only compete locally, and those who excell will travel to regional competitions, a select few will even compete nationally. What makes their sports different from ours? Just like us, they are competing under a set of guidlines established by their governing body. Just like us, their events are conducted under the guidance and judging of officials trained by their governing body, and just like us, their governing body provides the avenues for elite competion through national championships (think Alter Cup), and the Olympics. So why do they have to join to compete and not us? Why are we different?
I am a member of US Sailing and will continue to be one. I will continue to receive training from US Sailing to further my skills in race administration and judging. Why? I guess, because I love the sport. One day those of you who do not see that it is necessary to join, may get to race only because I, and others who see the benefits, continue to be members, receive the training, and volunteer our time to the sport. Rant over.

One potential difference that I see is the PERCEIVED value of US Sailing membership from catamaran sailors, as compared to other athletes and their national organizations (as in the cases you mentioned).

Personally, actions of US Sailing often leave me feeling that we (catamaran sailors) are there for them (membership dues), rather than US Sailing being there for the good of the ENTIRE sport of sailing.

If I only sailed monohulls, I would join US Sailing based on your premise.

If there were an organization that I felt truly represented all catamaran sailors, I would join and would encourage others to do so.

If you sail at Alter Cup, or at a nationals, I agree you may benefit from the race official training and/or other aspects. What about all the sailors that dont race at that level? Our statewide regattas dont require certified officials, nor do our fleet races. I look at it from an individual basis. If your racing at a level that you think US Sailing is helpful, then join and support them.

In short, too many catsailors dont feel that US Sailing IS their national organization, so its not a fair comparison to other sports.

Both points of view are valid - I recognize there are widely varying opinions on the matter.

For me, cat sailing is sailing, and USSA is the NGB of sailing. I'm stuck in an upsidedown position right now in that I'm spending more time and effort working for the top-level organization for sailing rather than concentrating on my club and class - I'm there because I felt like it was "my turn," and I'm glad there are term limits. I derive a lot of value from USSA but I recognize not everyone can connect those dots - and there's nothing wrong with that. That value is what made me feel like I needed to take "my turn" and because I'm in a position that allows me some free time, I get to "give back." It definitely isn't for everyone and as it happened, I got to "give back" during a particularly volatile time. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, glad a membership prescription is off the radar. Next crisis, please.

As opposed to the sports you list, the stark difference is that you can sail a boat on a lake or ocean without the need for special facilities (a gym, a pool, etc.). You could argue that in order to use the facilities at sailing and yacht clubs you should have to be a member but I don't think this is the sort of thing you can back into. The large majority of our sailing facilities existed long before US Sailing.

In the case of the pools and gyms, the sanctioning body helps them organize the facility and the sports. It works the other way around for sailing - all our club (Keowee Sailing Club) events have always been organized internally with no input from an outside organization other than the use of a widely accepted rule book (I am not arguing for or against the benefits provided by US Sailing).

I wonder of the Pilgrims were members...

I’ve been lurking this forum for close to a year now, and I’ve got to chime in on some of the misinformation in the first post.

I swam competitively for a little over 12 years. Stating that everyone who swims in a meet has to be a member of United States Swimming (USS) is a bit of a stretch. Anyone who swims in a USS sanctioned meet has to be a member of USS. There are TONS of other smaller organizations to swim under. There are plenty of local leagues for smaller scale meets. You don’t have to be a member of USS to swim in a country club league, a local city league, high school/state leagues, or even to swim for the NCAA. In the 4 years I swam NCAA I didn’t have a USS membership. I didn’t bother with going to USS national events because I was competing in NCAA national events, therefore I didn’t need a membership.

The big difference is that to swim in USS sanctioned meets then you need to be a member of USS. They run Jr. nationals, Sr. nationals, and Olympic trials. So if you’re going to be competing on a national level you have to be a member.

What US Sailing was proposing was that even those beer can races (read local leagues) would require membership. That was part of the big gripe wasn’t it? Even the guy who raced one time in a Hobie regatta would be required to be a member of US sailing.

US Sailing is like OPEC ,you pay 'em to screw you.

Hey Todd... cute.. but asinie

Is that what John Williams has been doing to you for the last several years.?

Darline??

Gordon ???

They are the volunteers that you are talking about.

Yes.
No.
Maybe.

JW. Sailing with the man. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No Good Bastards?

*snicker*

Hey Mark ,
Is an asinie any thing like a bikini? If your gonna insult someone at least spell it correctly, DORK. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Back to the subject.
Why do "volunteers" need dues?
I 'm guessing that John,Jake,et.al. are as upset as the rest of us about USS' lack of support and that's probably the reason they do as much as they do(which I thank them for). I'm real tired of folks like USS' higher ups, wanting my money and not doing much to earn it.I'm having to work harder than ever to make it.It ain't easy for us "PRO" sailors.If I gotta shell out my hard earned cash JW and gang should get paid. I definitely would join a Multi specific group like BK was mentioning, I think that would be the way to go.
And by the way JW is a NGB ,he stole my beachwheels for that evil no good metric JC fella.

Todd... you missed the news while you were doing the tybee ...

ISAF just made a ruling that kicks you out of the PRO sailing ranks.. (Seriously) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So... now you are just a normal?? SOB on the water. You can sticker your boat and sail to your hearts content and be just like me... albeit with an ugly boat! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (Can I have your T shirt?)

Dues... Same answer as to why does a class association need dues. If what they do is run a north americans... why don't they just charge the participants who show up the full cost of the event?

Unless you think those guys are SOBs as well, they must do more behind the scenes that costs money that you are not aware of.

(ps... it was spelled correctly) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Any chance you are coming up for the Oxford race.. the 20 guys are talking about getting the house again.

asinie? I'm sorry but my degree is not in literary English, what is an ASINIE? Is that a person with ASININE tendencies? Sorry, just trying to be educated here... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


On the dues issue, if you (or me) races only ocasionally, i.e. club races or other local venue without any aspirations or the skill to go any further, what again is the benifit? You (collectively) say that USSA provides the PRO or race officers but my understanding is as a PRO or the person running the regatta you pay for your own training, (Just as in swimming, I'm a swim judge). Those costs for us regular folks just makes sailing and "fun" racing more expensive and we're more likely to do even less races. But hey, thats just me.

Clayton

Well... things are great so long as no problems occur.

Whether its a "fun" race... or a serious race... doesn't really matter when the @#%@ hits the fan does it?

If it's organized... somebody did it and they are now on the hook.

Should you flip your boat and drown it's highly probably that your wife and heirs are going to look for money under every rock and the poor PRO/organizer looks like a good rock.

USSA provides that individual with insurance coverage so that their spouse does not have a heart attack at the prospect of losing their house because they volunteered their time and service.

The paper club has no assets but all of the volunteers they recruit are also sources of cash... USSA started the regatta liability programs that cover your paper club and it's volunteers. Now you have at least two companies that compete to offer this coverage... both because of USSA. So... for that fun race that you want...if your buddy with a powerboat helping out has an accident ... who's insurance get's tapped?

It does not matter if the organizer or race personal have no responsibility... Are they going to walk into court or a deposition without a lawyer? It's just not worth the aggravation in the end..

IMO, its the responsibility of the club to protect it's volunteers and spread the cost among the members and the racers.

It's the racer's responsibility to pay for this and support the activities if you want them to continue.

So… when you cut to the chase… How do you want to pay for the services needed?

IMO USSA is essential for providing the structure of support that makes a sailboat regatta happen. Is it a benefit that you immediately see ...clearly not.

If you don't want to pay for the service that the organization is using... I would say you are a freeloader.

What to do…
You would like to race once or twice a year . Since mandatory membership will not be the solution. Where does that leave you?

My solution is for the regatta to charge you 1/3 of the membership dues for your Club OD Class and USSA for the event. So..assuming that you belong to a club …that would be 60 bucks for USSA and 30 for your OD class dues or 90 bucks. Would you object to a surcharge of 30 bucks on top of the regatta fees? Remember, the money stays with the host club.

Hobie events no longer give you a one time weekend pass…. If you want to race… you have to be a class member…. So for these events… you would have to pay 20 bucks more if you refused to join USSA.

Obviously if you were going to race more then three times a year it would be to your benefit to join USSA and your class.

I can not help but comment on the litigation issue. I have never been to a regatta where the sailing instructions dont make it clear that the decision to race is the skippers and that the whole responsibility is the skippers. I have been to some regattas where I preferred to stay in safety on land as one or two boats launched to try to score some "easy" points over the rest (not so easy points after all, as it turned out). But even if I thought the organizer should postpone, it was my decision and responsibility to decide. The same when my crew went swimming for 30 minutes in winds strong enough to make it very, very, hard to pick him up again.
I sure hope the litigation issue is not as bad as Mark makes it sound like. The only ones who would want a system like that would be the lawyers.

It doesn't matter how much language like that you put in SIs or release forms. If a grieving widow and her fatherless children go in front of a jury they'll probably win no matter how weak their case.

And she probably will sue you no matter how many times she declares that she'd never dream of doing something like that.

How sad. That means I am not responsible for my own actions and decisions and it sure must quell a lot of activity.. I will go away now as I probably am about to derail the whole thread. Sorry Mark.

Welcome to the US of litigious A!

I agree that no matter how much responsability is clearly placed on the skipper... our legal system basically requres a lawsuit naming anyone who could possubly be liable / with cash

I wrote a good bit (reminded me of Wouter) in response to your post, then decided it wasn't worth it.

You call me a "freeloader"... you know nothing about me.

My feeling is you "racers" don't want regular guys on the course with you cause we don't fit your mold. If you're not hard core you're not $%&#. And we wonder why sailing isn't more popular.

Guess what, I'll cross what little racing I've done off, you guys don't need us regular folks. Its amazing, I used to think cat sailors were regular folks.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Clayton

[censored]?!?!?!? Nothing could be further from the truth! We want to get EVERYONE involved in racing no matter how hardcore you are about it! Hell, I'm still trying to figure out if I come to regattas more for the racing, or more for the party and people.

Believe me, the "Richards" concentration in Catsailing is microscopic, almost unmeasurable, compared to the slowboat fleets.

Now that US Sailing has dropped the requirement to join, I will reconsider joining. I am still not at all happy with their non-support of the Tornado in the Olympics, but I think I will have more leverage by joining as a "Golden Anchor, Multihull Member, than just telling them to pound sand. John Williams, is there a Golden Anchor link on the US Sailing site, or should I go through you?
Thanks.

Where did this response come from Clayton?

The whole movement about racers (not just cat sailors) not wanting USSA membership to be mandatory was to support grass roots guys and fringe racers interests. Now anyone who wants to can join voluntarily for various reasons, and have access to the benefits, as well as support the organization. You can still race and be welcome, just at a different price and commitment level. I don’t know anyone who feels like casual racers ought to be kept off the race course.

http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/ga_form.asp

For anyone that wants to join, that is fine - it is a matter of personal feeling and, since there is not going to be a rule requiring it, it is still a matter of personal preference.

For my part, I've been invited to help out in developing some member-focused perks and incentives as just one facet of the upcoming member drive. The last few months have demonstrated that the organization needs to reconsider how to present itself to new and renewing members. If you have ideas, either drop by the SA thread, post them here, or e-mail me.

Things I like (at low- or no-cost) that have been done lately include Dave Perry's idea to put the US appeals on-line for people to read. I also like the way the race management website continues to expand the stuff like shake-n-bake SIs, NORs, equipment lists, suppliers for marks, flags, etc... This stuff needs better visiblity and placement to make it accessible to more member clubs and classes to use. Even simple little incentives like the upcoming member card redesign and the possibility that Sailing World is coming back... member-focus, national stewardship, non-intrusive assistance... an overhual is sounding more likely.

BUT - I know many (including me) have lost faith and trust. It will be a crucial show-me period for the rest of the year, I think. Nobody can be expected to write a check for dues unless the value is expanded and made self-evident.

Clayton - don't cross anything off. That only hurts the clubs like Ocean Springs that put on fun events like Slip to Ship and Island Hop. And events like that are why a huge number of us sail to begin with. Take the fun part - there's nothing stopping you and nobody should suggest otherwise.

BUT - I know many (including me) have lost faith and trust. It will be a crucial show-me period for the rest of the year, I think. Nobody can be expected to write a check for dues unless the value is expanded and made self-evident.


Hi John,

While I agree that perks are nice.... it's hard to come up with 60 bucks of value in perks... (nor would I be interested in paying for these perks)

Perks are not the issue for me. USSA delivers the infrastructure for good sailboat racing... I believe it's worthy of our support.

The best people to deliver this message to racers are the host YC and organizing authorities.

I suggest that USSA create THIS very focused message to the organizing authorities and ASK them to make the case to the racers in their own words. If nobody tells you what you are getting... how are you supposed to know about this stuff?

This is the bottom line about why you need to be a member. These are the services that we value and simply don't recognize or take for granted.

Protest committes are almost non existant at cat races... The mere thought of being hauled into one drives people crazy with fear of the unknown.... so they may not play by the rules and the game suffers.

What if a USSA judge showed up and did a public Protest Committe hearing with some volunteer complaints on Saturday evening... Think we might learn something and get value out of HIS training and expertise at heading up the protest committe? The judge benefits (bet he never thought about catamaran speeds and the rules... the participants benefit and us bystanders get to learn and ask questions. We get to play the game hard and safely the next time we race.

Even the Clayton's of the world... the non racers out to give it whirl would get some education out of a program like this.

How about if the the Regatta PRO was asked to state his credentials and USSA training at the skippers meeting... It would certainly make the point that he takes this seriously and wants to make sure us racers have a great regatta...

I can't think of an event where this kind of promotion occurred... On the other hand... I listen to plugs for all the sponsors who gave money or stuff which defrayed my expense... (and I don't care about that crap)

There are legit questions about USSA's focus, overhead and leadership, relationship to Olympics etc but one must deal with these seperatly and not just mush everything into the waste barrel.

Kudo's for all of the shots you deflect on SA... If myself and wouter are PIA on this board... it's NOTHING like the SA set of pissants.

John, thanks for the link and here is my single idea for increasing membership;

Allow all US Sailing members (with cards) access to daily rentals of dinghys at the several US Sailing Centers nation wide. In addition to that, since they already have the boats, water access, instructors and insurance, they should offer some type of a 1-2 hour "check out" program for anyone who already knows how to sail and would like to rent. Then charge them a reasonable fee but in addition to the checkout, they would get a 1yr. introductory membership and card which allows them to rent again without the checkout.

Then, next year, you hit them up for the full amount. If they can see some tangible benefit (rentals of boats) they may become full price members. This is how most community sailing centers operate, and US Sailing could do the same.

In addition to the rule book, it would be nice if they would publish a listing of locations and phone numbers for all the comunity sailing centers they are affiliated with.

Those (two) guys are seriously mentally impaired.

I appreciate you guys weighing in over there. I know people are upset and I don't blame them, but they should aim the cannons in the right direction before touching off the powder. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I honestly don't know why they're even aiming in your general direction.

Its not like you ever endorsed the plan at any stage of its proposal.

Their point that "just because it was EVEN CONSIDERED" means that YOU specifically must go is laughable and incredibly myopic.

Oh and I'd like them to take you up on your offer of running against you for MHC chair. That'd be laughable. I'm pretty sure it'd be a "48 state landslide" in favor of Squirrelpower.

It isn't even so much about "me v them." I just want to see them do something beyond calling for everyone currently volunteering to quit. You and I and many others will still be working out what is best for our niche of the sport long after those guys forget mandatory membership was even proposed.

Why would any of you waste any time talking to anyone on the SA site? You might just as well go bang your head against a cement wall, at least that will feel good when you stop.

Those guys are the very reason people get out of sailing soon after they get in, and meet up with their attitudes. It has to be fun or nobody's going to spend time and money doing it.

Only trying to correct the record - claims that the Board were unanimous were false and needed to be corrected. Claims that the prescription was inevitable were wrong and needed to be corrected. Claims that a sailor cannot get his or her voice heard are wrong. The withdrawal of the prescription should be proof.

Good on 'ya John for straightening them out, I stopped going to that site a long time ago, so obnoxious they are.

I am a member of US Sailing, but I have nothing to show for it. Seems like when I wanted to join they were extremely quick to reply to my emails and answer all my questions. Now that I am asking about cards and decals I have not received one reply.

Doesnt west marine give discounts if you are a USS Member? Also I wouldnt mind rocking the decal on my tow vehicle.

What gives?

Re Mark's suggestion that PROs and race committee members are potential suees after an accident or injury: Has this in fact ever happened? I have never heard of it in 30 years of cat racing mostly in Florida.
Likewise- How about extension of this thread to the liability insurance insisted on by some municipalities before allowing sailboat racing offshore in the big blue Atlantic Ocean. Otherwise known as the Regatta Killing Insurance Requirement: If I recall, this "Liability Insurance" is not for participants- its for the observing public. Has anyone documented such an incident (followed by a lawsuit) during a regatta?
Would USSA be helpful in providing such insurance?

Melbourne Yacht Club in Florida has been sued.

Yes it does happen.

ding, any link to what happened in that case? Should be an interesting read...

And back to Rolf's comments about the US legal system. Around here, nothing is "my" fault. There is always someone else to blame.

Not that I know the details of the case, but there was a teenager who PULLED THE TRIGGER and shot his teacher in school. I believe the victim's relatives sued the HANDGUN MANUFACTURER for not having adequate safety mechanisms on the handgun.

I'm still not sure how a handgun is supposed to determine that a finger pulling the trigger is doing it on purpose or "by accident"

It HAS happened. All over the USA. Don't be naive and think that the lawyers looking at some unfortunate racers or as pointed out earlier, spectators) case isn't going to look to those responsible for the event. Protect and insulate yourself from these awful situations. USSailing can be the vehicle for that protection. Call Lloyd's of London for a quote on specific event insurance,but sit down first.

And what about the "hold harmless" liability release forms? I guess they are worthless? I know lots of people die riding horses over fences every year, but when you sign up to compete, the first thing you sign is a liabilty waiver, and I've never heard of any horse farm being sued because some kid flipped over a jump and died, and that happens nearly once a week, nation wide. OH, and most of their Daddy's are Lawyers!

Liability Waivers are nothing more than a speed bump on the road to court.

Nothing prevents someone attempting to sue. They may not win, but you still have to defend yourself. Defending yourself means hiring an attorney. Hiring an attorney costs significant $$.

That's why we all carry insurance.

Lots of the competitors on the race course have also earned their J.D. and have problems (accidents) that result in personal injuries. I've been asked by one skipper to sign a post accident waiver of my rights(to sue) after an inattentive moment on his part led to me getting about 20 sutures and a round of antibiotics or two. Yes he is a personal injury attorney and he worried and hounded me for a week about my condition. I never even considered action but his attitude was that it was a big deal even among friends.

In some cases, the cost to defend yourself from a claim costs more than the claim settlement itself... Sad, really.

Gentlemen, As an adjuster for over 20 years, please allow me to add my two cents. In most cases, if you review your own Homeowners Insurance policy, you will find that under the Liability section, your beachcat is covered. This even includes for a racing event. I would refer you to your individual policy and or contact your agent. If there is coverage, then your Insurance Company would owe you a defense for any claim and or suit that results from an accident, and or occurrence. This woould include the reatining of an attorney all the way through trial if needed.

RE Mark's comments to improve friendly racing proceedings.:
>Protest committes are almost non existant at cat races... so they may not play by the rules and the game suffers.
>What if a USSA judge showed up and did a public Protest Committe hearing .. We get to play the game hard and safely the next time we race.
>the non racers (can still) give it whirl
>Regatta PRO was asked to state his credentials and USSA training at the skippers meeting.

I submit that Protests are a necessary element to racing. They remind one that it is best to race by the rules, and to exonerate yourself as best as possible on the racecourse. It is not intended to be a punitive process resulting in jail-time, lawsuits or total and utter disgrace. Protests are a part of the learning process.

By the way: I suggest that PROs, Race Committees and Protest committees are irrelevant to a lawsuit. I have had my boats damaged, rarely but occasionally, and would prefer the offender to pay to repair the damage rather than inspire a lawsuit. Only Katherine Garelick absolutely refused to be responsible for her damage (and is still an unrestrained renegade IMHO).

I don't think he straightened them out but he was patient, intelligent and articulate.

MICreek

I just want to clarify... The insurance coverage that we are talking about is NOT a personal property and liability issue. eg your Hobie 16 and the damage you cause to property or personal injury while racing. I agree with your point that your homeowner's policy could well include the boat and your liability.

In order for an organized race to occur, IMO it's prudent to protect your volunteers from crap that could happen.
The insurance is for your actions while you are serving as a volunteer on the race committe. Even if you have an enormous personal umbrella coverage... most volunteers would expect your organization to step up with coverage and not have to fall back on their personal financial package.

Also, you organize and launch off someone's property. We would have a devil of a time getting a permit for Baltimore City property... They insisted that CRAC have a policy that covered their property... After several years they figured out that the liabilty policy we would send them only covered our actions on the water and not their property... Likewise, the DTB won't happen because the owner of the land at a midway point is uncomfortable with the policy for his property that we could purchase. So... from his point of view... Eh... not worth the hassel.

The good ol days are long gone... Yacht Clubs exist with property on the water and a structure to host regattas...

Cat Sailors should use them.

Rock Hall, MD hosted 75 dinghys including 12 A class and 11 Open class this weekend Including a 12 mile down the river race with 3 classic Chessie log canoes on the starting line. .... The cat sailors thought it was a priceless deal and we were happy! That is the future!

Who knew? Where are they?

I see the issue now. I stand corrected, thanks.

There's the one in Jensen Beach:US SAILING Center Martin County

Miami: US SAILING Center Miami

Long Beach: US SAILING Center Long Beach

I didn't know they existed. So what makes a US Sailing Center a US Sailing Center?

BK, In short, Money... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I would be nice if every community sailing center were also a US Sailing center, and it would be nice if they all had rental programs for members who are "certified" (take a test, get certified, rent a boat) but they don't want to be in that business. And they wonder why the sport is in decline...how is a newbie supposed to get started?

US Sailing would have him join a week long program for say, $300+, and at the end of the program guess what, he still can't rent a boat from US Sailing. Brilliant!

Timbo, offer still stands. Next time you are in Seattle, we will get you out on one of our six H-16's or six Waves.
Caleb
www.sailsandpoint.org

Sail Sand Point in Seattle is open to ALL sailors.
This is how the OPEN SAILING program works.
http://www.sailsandpoint.org/?content=OpenSailing

See you on the water.

Caleb Tarleton

"US Sailing Center" is just a title that adds prestige and maybe some local political clout to a sailing center, and maybe makes it easier to get their nonprofit-charitable designation.

US Sailing does not own the centers and does not give them any money. The three centers that have the US Sailing designation just have to be available to US Sailing for clinics and regattas. But each center has to figure out how to support itself.

The Martin County center has lots of learn-to-sail programs and a number of membership programs, some of which allow members of the center to have unlimited use of their boats during the hours the center is open. There is also a membership for people who want to be able to launch their own boats from the center.

However, none of this has anything to do with whether you are a member of US Sailing -- you have to join the sailing center itself.