port / starboard race rule

question, if you foul someone in a race by not giving way to the boat on the starboard tack durring a distance race and they have to fall off to avoid hitting your sterns... can you do an on the course correction? if yes, what is required?

First the guy you fouled has to yell "Protest" to alert you to the foul and then give you a chance to do a 360, if that is allowed.

AND if you know you have fouled them you can do the penalty on your own, if an alternative penalty is allowed instead of retiring.

Thanks guys,

They HAVE to yell foul? if they don't can they still protest after the race?

and how do i know if its allowed? some rule in the NOR or verbal notice at the skippers meeting?

And you get the bad(post one) and the good(post two). You know if you fouled someone and whether they protest you or not the right thing to do is whatever penalty was prescribed by the race committee. Its a self policing sport, is it not?

And my understanding is that in most instances this means going off course a spinning a 360, correct?

Depending on your class, they can be picky about actually displaying a protest flag and a hail is not valid, if you ever see a whiffle ball hanging on a dinghy boom, it's got the flag in there!

No, you do not -always- know if you did or not, especially in a distance race.

Depends on size of boat. Less than 6m flag is not required (usually).

As for hailing protest; that is not required either. If you foul, you should do your turn(s).

It's possible you get seen fouling, but out of earshot and so you cannot hear the protest hail.

61 PROTEST REQUIREMENTS
61.1 Informing the Protestee
(a) A boat intending to protest shall inform the other boat at the
first reasonable opportunity. When her protest concerns an
incident in the racing area that she is involved in or sees, she
shall hail ‘Protest’ and conspicuously display a red flag at the
first reasonable opportunity for each. She shall display the flag
until she is no longer racing. However,
(1) if the other boat is beyond hailing distance, the protesting
boat need not hail but she shall inform the other boat at
the first reasonable opportunity;
(2) if the hull length of the protesting boat is less than 6
metres, she need not display a red flag;
(3) if the incident results in damage or injury that is obvious
to the boats involved and one of them intends to protest,
the requirements of this rule do not apply to her, but she
shall attempt to inform the other boat within the time
limit of rule 61.3.
(b) A race committee or protest committee intending to protest a

"As for hailing protest; that is not required either. If you foul, you should do your turn(s)."

So what if you had no idea you fouled the other boat because a. you were not even aware of his presance or b. what his intended course was (he said it was a distance race, so "proper course" could be open to speculation)

Any jackass could walk up to you after a long distance race and say, "I am protesting you because you fouled me way back when..." Now you have no way to exonerate yourself, or maybe even no knowledge of the foul, or even if the protest was legitamate. I've seen it done.

When in doubt, you can ask him if you fouled him, if he has not hailed you, and if allowed, you do your 360 and press on.

I'm all for self policing, and don't intentionally foul people, but just going to do turns when a guy is hunting me and then protesting?...and other times I've talked to a skipper after a race that I wasn't sure I had fouled but held off doing turns, and found out they didn't think anything was wrong, so....

Exactly my point, thanks.

Care to explain what you mean by HUNTING.

He states he fouled the guy by not giving right of way, your immediate response was only if the other boat hailed protest should he do the turns. My point was that he knew he had fouled so turns should be done whether he was hailed/protested or not.

Maybe the guy was fkng with him to try to get him to tack? Not that anyone would ever do that...

;^)

actually it didnt happen to me, it happend to a friend durring a race last month, and we talked about it last night. I asked if he could have corrected on the water, and he had no idea... but thanks for the info

Andrew, it would really help to hear the specifics. Since the boats in our distance races are usually REALLY spaced out across the Gulf and/or bay, the only place where interactions should occur would have been in the narrow pass. Constrained by light air, strong currents, abrupt shoal edges, etc., the truthful and realistic boat-to-boat interaction would probably not just be a port/starboard problem. You can scream STARBOARD all you want at a boat who has no wind, no steerage, and pinned against a lee shore.

Not many whiners in our group. I wonder who it could be?

Hunting is a slang term for sailing below your proper course to on starboard to force a P/S situation.

Right... a sexy slang term that I would argue does such harm that this term should not be uttered.

It is the most misused and misunderstood term in sailing and many think its part of the rules. A get out of jail free card because..." you were hunting me"

Even bringing it up in this situation lets port consider for a moment that starboard was breaking a rule (ie hunting).

coupled with how misunderstood "proper course" is... Its just a mess.... on par with mast abeam.

Oh now there you go. Had to bring up 1990s rules to boot? I knew YOU were hunting when you posted that question. I don't think sbflyer saw it coming.

Anyway, I know, I still hear it occasionally too. Pretty funny actually, right up there with "I misremembered"...

Mike

Don't starboard tackers ever break the rules?

Short answer: Yes. A right-of-way boat may maneuver, but must give the other boat time and opportunity to avoid her.

Mike

But did the Starboard tack boat hail the port tack boat? In some instances the starboard tack boat would rather duck the port and hope the port doesn't tack, he might not hail, and choose instead to duck. Unless he hailed "starboard" or after the duck, hailed "Protest", if I were the port boat, I don't think I would consider him fouled at all. Maybe he didn't want to exert his rights and ducked instead so as to keep clear air? Is that considered a "Foul" by the port tack boat?

I know I have often ducked port tack boats because I wanted to continue on, alone. But if I don't want them to tack I either hail them that I will duck or try to duck early enough that they don't tack on me.

err... yes I was hunting...
Its rainy cold and nasty... so this was a fish in a barrel kind of opportunity.

as to the rule.... What Mike said!

Timbo... what part of port tack shall keep clear of starboard do you want to argue with?

No hail of "starboard" is required.... "Wake up and pay attention" amounts to the same thing. You are not asserting your rights with some hail... and you are not declining your rights when you don't say a word.

Starboard is NOT DUCKING PORT.... She is avoiding a collision with PORT.... It's a foul by port. Port put her self in that position and took the risk.. So... pay the piper.

As windy noted... Self policing... means YOU call the foul on yourself.... you don't have to hear protest if you know you fouled him.
If there was some doubt... He can help you out by telling you... Protest.... If he says protest and you think you were clear ahead... better have a witness who has the proper angle to disprove Starboard's claim that they altered course to avoid a collision.

The rules are black and white here to make the penalty on Port large enough so that she is conservative in her time and distance judgments.

ps
In catamarans... its of dubious value to tack and try to lee bow starboard.... so you would prefer port to tack below you and get shot out the back as opposed to ducking and getting a shift or more pressure on port tack.

If they are clear ahead of you... they are winning for the moment.... If they want to tack on you and get your air..... that's what winning gets you.

Maybe's cause boats to go boom!

Wow, all that rain is really making you testy!

While I agree with most of that rant, the other thing to consider is that advanced racing tactics call for the starboard boat to know whether you really want the port boat to tack, or whether you want to wave him across to get him out of your way.

Usually, this is only done when the sailors are very familiar with one another's capabilities. Hand jestures can also be confusing when it's windy.

I doubt that was the case here, but it's just another thing to think about when on the water.

Mike

I wasn't there Mark, were you? It's a tough call until you tell me the exact situation, type of boats, wind speed, direction, etc. and he said it was a Distance Race which to me means maybe neither one of them was "close hauled" but instead trying to get to some fixed marker up the shore/river/what have you.

I really don't know why I bother...

Mark you are right, always. What was I thinking?

And Maybe's do not cause boats to go boom, Asshats who don't hail Starboard cause boats to go boom.

A lot of protests come down to wheter the offended party hailed protest or not. A situation can be clear as gold as who was right but if you don't hail "protest" then in the protest room your protest can mean nothing.

First of all, take a look at the preamble to the rules "Basic Principle - Sportsmanship and the Rules". It says:

Therefore, if you believe you have fouled someone, you should take a penalty, whether they protest or not. If you aren't sure, then it's perfectly ok to see if they protest you. Check rule 61 "Protest Requirements" also. It says:

Now, there are some exceptions, and the sailing instructions may add additional requirements, but that is the basic notification requirement. Note that the protesting competitor has to say the word "protest". You can't say "you owe me turns", or "you broke a rule", or "you fouled me". You have to say "protest". If your boat is 6 meters or longer, then you must fly a red flag. If you don't do both of these without delay, then your protest is invalid.

Now, about exoneration, look at rule 44. Rule 44.1 says:

The sailing instructions may change the penalty, or offer an alternative penalty, but if they don't then a boat may usually exonerate herself by making two turns as described by rule 44.2:


I hope that helps,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge,
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

Scooby... I think the culture over here (NA) is to not protest an incident that you see but are not directly involved in.

Is this common to issue third party protests among the brits?

Does it help the game by getting people to take fewer chances and sail smarter?

Yes. It is entirely possible that both (or all) boats involved may break a rule. I prefer not to think of the rules in terms of "rights", but in terms of "obligations". In a typical starboard/port crossing, the port boat (P) is obligated to keep clear (rule 10), If the starboard boat (S) changes course, she is obligated to give P room to keep clear (rule 16.1). S is also obligated not to "hunt" P (rule 16.2). Both boats are obligated to avoid contact if reasonably possible (rule 14).

If, for example, P does not keep clear of S, and S does not avoid contact (and there's damage or injury), then both boats may wind up disqualified.

Regards,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

If the "right-of-way" boat changes course for strategic or tactical reasons, rather than as an "avoiding action" that does not constitute a foul.

For example, if S believes that the left side is favored (wind shift, better velocity, etc.), wants to go left, and bears away to prevent P from tacking on her lee-bow, then P does not break rule 10. If P hails "tack or cross", and S waves P across, then P is clean (even if S bears away).

I hope that helps,
Eric

"Hunting", like "barging", is not a term defined in the rules, but one often used to describe a particular situation. In real life, neither hunting nor barging is a "get out of jail free card" for the hunted or barged boat. There are, however, rules that prohibit both hunting (RRS 16.2) and barging (RRS 11 / Section C Preamble). I don't consider either term to be so harmful as to prohibit its use.

Regards,
Eric

Well, yes and no. The rules do not explicitly require the starboard tack boat to hail. If there's contact, however, S may find herself in trouble. Rule 14 requires all boats to avoid contact "if reasonably possible", and Dick Rose recently published an article in which he wrote that hails are a reasonable part of avoiding contact. If S could have avoided contact by hailing, and did not, then she breaks rule 14. So, although the rules are not explicit in this situation, a hail may be implicitly required.

Either way, when both boats know one another is aware of the situation, and understands the other's intentions, problems are far less likely to occur. Good communication on the water is almost always helpful.

Regards,
Eric

I'm missing why "close hauled" is impotant hear?

RE Eric's acceptance of the term hunting.

No... I see people take 16.2 and say... well, I was keeping clear.... er.... I had not changed course but was going to cross clear ahead... when starboard footed off and hunted me and I was forced to foul him. He did not give me room and opportunity to stay clear.

or... I footed off to clear starboard but they also footed to hunt me... and I fouled starbord because of their actions.

They think that 16..2 means the ROW boat is restricted from sailing puffs, headers and lifts or changing gears from point mode to foot mode going into a cross...People who throw the hunting charge believe that starboard is somehow constrained to simply going straight as the cross approaches. With this interpretation of 16.2, port does not give starboard enough room.

Perry's guidance that a 16.2 violation should not be subtle.... Port needs evidence that port changed course to duck and starboard changed course and changed course again solely to get them.

So I take 16.2 as a limit on Starboard actions... Not something that Port should be thinking about in a cross. Port should either be clear ahead and crossing... or clearly ducking and keeping clear.

What am I missing?

where to begin? Sorry that was to easy.

This is a stretch.... linking a hail that is not required because you are the ROW boat ... to not taking action in avoiding a collision This is a bogus concatenation of your responsibility.... If you could avoid the collision and did not take action... you violate rule 14. period!

Injecting this yes and no interpretation is silly and contributes to the confusion that leads to.. well.... he did not hail starboard so that I thought he gave me permission to cross... (see this thread in fact)

No one will disagree with you on

However, Communication like hails of "starboard" is frequently a class culture issue. In tornado's... they think you are a hick from the sticks if you are constantly hailing boats on every cross.... they are pros... they know the rules. They tell you to shut up.... (If you don't figure it out on your own.)

So...Yes... communication can't be wrong and No communication may not be warranted... Yes and NO guidance on things like class culture ... no problem... Yes and no answers on the rule requirements is misleading.

OK... but given our internal troubles on the little bit of water we sail on.... OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE MISSING A LOT OF RULES!....
Sigh...

Yes, be careful on that. It bit our Tybee 500 team (I was ground crew) in the *** a few years back.

Two of the boats (either accidentally or on purpose, not judging) cut inside the last buoy around the Cape. Our team filed a formal protest on the beach because they did not unwind their course to exonerate themselves and they admitted to such.
The rule in the RSS specify (61.1.a.2) a boat less than 6 meters (19'8 1/4") in length is not required to display a protest flag. The I20 is actually 20' in length so over the limit by 3.75", so our protest was thrown out on a technicality because our team didn't display a flag (don't know who could have seen it but....) It was frustrating but interesting, everyone was reading the RSS's and running around measuring hulls, a good learning experience.

I didn't realize that Ksurfer had posted the rule on page one of this thread.

Wow... so in a buoys race like tradewinds... the only boat required to fly a flag is the N20... I will have to remember to modify the SI's for events to exclude them as well. Thanks

I just looked and it seems that the RSS refers to the ROW boat in relation to "proper course" instead of "close hauled" so proper course could be nearly any point of sail, correct??

Not quite....

I made a deliberate error above to see who whould correct me.

If you are foulded by someone, you need to make it clear that you plan to protest. If the other party does not hear you; that MAY be their problem.

If you see someone hit a mark from 100m away, they may not hear you call protest. If someone hits you, they SHOULD hear you protest. HOWEVER, sailinging is an inclusive game; people who cannot hear properly, are still allowed to play.

Yes, a protesting boat should shout protest, and MAY, depending on the rules and SI's need to raise a protest flay; most small boats do not.

The boat being protested may not HEAR the call... (A Witness to the call is useful).

If they are a not near enough to hear a hail then you have to inform as soon as.

Curious, carry a flag now?

If a protest does not meet the minimum requirements to be heard it's tossed. So yes, you need to carry a flag long boat, or you could get an F18 and save the 10 bucks.

Little late here, but the 'don't starboard tacker ever break rules" was meant to be ironic commentary, but on the close hauled thing, it matters, if you're beating to a mark, close hauled is your proper course, and you shouldn't be on stbd beam reach all of a sudden messing with a port tacker. If you're reaching to a mark, there is a lot more gray area about proper course...

Which may well be the end of the race.

That is exactly what rules 16.1 and 16.2 do. They restrict a "right-of-way" boat's ability to change course when a "give-way" boat is avoiding her. "Course" under the rules means "compass course", not "close-hauled course". So, if a close-hauled port-tack boat (P) is crossing a close-hauled starboard-tack boat (S), then S must either maintain her course, or change course in a way that gives P room to keep clear. If S happens to get a lift, she can't follow it up if that action would prevent P from keeping clear (RRS 16.1). Likewise, if P is ducking behind S, and S gets a header, she cannot turn down onto P if P would have to immediately change course to keep clear (RRS 16.2).


Intent is not part of rule 16.2, only action. Intent is virtually impossible to determine in a protest hearing, which is one reason why some of the rules were rewritten in the last rules change.


Precisely!


I think you are over-simplifying and overstating S's "rights". Rule 10 (Opposite Tacks) does not give a starboard-tack boat carte blanche. Her actions are limited by rules 14, 15, 16, 18, and 19.

Sincerely,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge,
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

Two observations:
1) You are correct that "proper course" is a big gray area. It is defined as:

If you can make a reasonable argument as to why you would have sailed that course even if the other boat weren't there, then a protest committee is very likely to conclude that you sailed your "proper course". It is entirely possible that two boats sailing the same leg in the same race would have two different "proper courses". Pinching vs. footing, sailing hot vs. sailing deep, sailing for wind vs. sailing for current, etc. are all considerations that yield different proper courses.

2) The term "proper course", only appears in two rules, RRS 17, and RRS 18.4. It does not apply to boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward.

Regards,
Eric

Perhaps, but a witness is typically not necessary. Unless there is some other evidence that the protestor is untruthful, a protest committee will generally accept his statement that he hailed "protest". You are correct that the hail is valid, even if the protestee doesn't hear it.

And, yes there are some circumstances in which a hail is not required (out of hailing distance, obvious damage or injury, etc.).

Regards,
Eric

haa got you to say instead of me having to say it....:)

Just funnin with you!

Eric, excellent job with all of these rule references. Your interpretations are spot on with what I'm seeing at the top end here in Newport.

A few things to note regarding some other posts here:

Flags. The intent of the rule changes regarding not requiring flags for small boats was partially due to making protesting easier. Too many protests were tossed on technicalities, which is BAD FOR THE SPORT. There are enough rules in place (as Eric has pointed out here and in similar threads) to allow PCs to move forward with hearing protests in certain situations.

The Hobie Class (IHCA) has siezed on this opportunity to state that flags are not required for ANY Hobie classes, regardless of length. This requires a proper SI, which is one of the items covered in our template.

Unfortunately, too many regattas go the other way. Youth events seems to be the worst. They want flags, hails, and RC notification at the end of the race. Good judges often allow protests without all of these things being met, if RRS and good judgement allow. Mainly, they want to use the hearings to help the kids learn.

Hailing "starboard." I agree with Mark, this is annoying and pointless, IF you are sailing in a good fleet, are comfortable with the ability of the boat on port, and they are looking at you. At the H16s NAs in Kingston in 2000, my crew was yelling starboard at every port boat she saw, until I told her to shut up (not quite in those words). I told her (and all my crews) that as long as someone on the other boat is looking at us, at that level, there's nothing to worry about.

Cross/tack. When I said earlier that you might want the port boat to cross rather than tack, this really has nothing to do with lee-bows. Generally, cats don't tack quickly enough to get in the proper position to pull this off, and the speed of our boats generally affects the airflow in such a way to make this ineffective. However, I don't want a pincher to tack under me, because that will kill me later on the leg. I tend to foot more than most, so almost everyone will outpoint me.

Mike

Tack or Cross conversations are great at 3 or 6 knots closing speed in lightnings.... but in cats at boat speeds of 7 knots... ie 14 knots closing... difficult to get right.

If port tackers are approaching starboard and LOOKING for starbord to wave them through... I contend that problems will occur... ..Better to have port looking to tack early or duck early and avoid issues.

Starboard Hunting Port on a cross is another rare situation and IF port is looking for this foul... then it will lead to issues.

Remember... the OP.... was asking..about a foul he KNOWS he committed but is not sure how to exonerate himeslf. Obviously he is at the beginning of the learning curve on racing.

What's needed are guidance on how to handle the majority of racing situations within the rules. The fine details will be beome relevant rules questions down the road.

Finally, the tack or cross conversation is INITIATED by Port... They are the ones who have to choose a course to stay clear of starboard. .... Starboard can holler at port "Cross:... all they want and Port will do what POrt wants... which is to tack and lee bow .... or take starboard's invitation and cross.

The intent of RRS 61.1 "Informing the Protestee", is to give the protested boat a fair opportunity to exonerate herself on the water. If you dont' properly inform the protestee, then your protest is invalid and will likely be thrown out in a hearing. I hate to see this happen (although I've thrown out such protests myself), as it rarely yields a positive outcome.

Class rules cannot modify RRS 61 (see RRS 86.1(c)). If a class wants to require, or not require a red flag, then those changes need to be in the sailing instructions, and possibly the notice of race.

It's very common for Sailing Instructions to add protest requirements, such as informing race committee, or requiring protests to be on official forms. Personally, I dislike such additions. They serve race committee, not the sailors. When presented with a protest that meets RRS 61, but not the SIs, I will look for a way to invalidate the sailing instruction and allow the hearing to continue. Many SIs don't fully conform to RRS 86.1, which helps.

In my experience, youth sailors are the most sportsmanlike. In all the high-school event protests I've heard, the sailors were universally polite, accepting, and appreciative - even when they lost the protest. They often ask the protest committee to explain the ruling, but I've never had one dispute it. I was at one SAISA event where the PC considered throwing out one of the coaches, but the competitors' behavior was exemplary.


If you are confident that a port boat sees you, understands her obligations, and has sufficient skill to fulfill them, then yes - a hail is superfluous. I typically only hail "starboard" if I suspect the port tack boat may not have seen me. Think of it as a one-word way of asking "hey, do you know I'm here"? When someone hails "starboard" to me, I simply respond "hold your course", which is a short way of saying "yes, I know you're there and I'm going to keep clear of you (as required by rule 10) as long as you fulfill your obligation under rule 16".


True. The "lee-bow" is generally not an effective maneuver for catamarans. The tack is too expensive (if you can lee-bow, you can probably cross), and being on someone's weather-hip typically isn't as big a disadvantage for cats as for monohulls. Generally speaking, it's usually more advantageous to cross and then tack.

Regards,
Eric

If P hails "tack or cross", and S replies "cross", then P is obligated to cross. If P tacks on S's lee-bow, that would constitute a breach of rule 2 "FAIR SAILING".

THAT HELPS!

Thanks to all.. great info.. i will pass it on to the "OFFENDER" and have learned myself... thank you!