Catsailor.com

That Cuban Run

Posted By: Robi

That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 03:34 PM

I have now witnessed two threads on SA regarding folks who want to purchase beach cats for this race.

First thread asking about a TheMightyHobie18.
Second thread asking about a Boston Whaler Super Cat 19.

IMO both boats are clunkers, meaning they can work but how efficiently and open ocean seaworthy are they?

I hope the organizers and racers and "wannabee racers" understand the risks in this crossing. I also hope they are informing the Coast Guard about this particular race.

And I am posting this because if you think about it, two folks have posted openly about buying boats for this particular race. Think about all those who have not posted openly wanting to purchase boats for this event.

That race is gonna be scary...
Posted By: pgp

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 03:48 PM

What's the sea state usually like in those waters? How much ship traffic?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 03:57 PM

Its crossing the gulf stream Pete. Meaning that there's mondo current and waves can stack up pretty badly.

IMO, the race organizers need to be selectively reviewing the sailing resumes of all the registrants. I know that Chuck has told more than one person that they aren't ready to participate in the Tybee 500 which is, an order of magnitude safer than the Cuban race will be.
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 04:06 PM

Yeah exactly I have participated in too many search and rescue cases, and that particular section of ocean gets nasty really quick.

Its no joke.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 04:09 PM

Hey Robi

As a Coastie, you're more than qualified to warn people about the dangers of that piece of water. I found the link to the supercat thread, but where's the other thread about the guy buying a TheMightyHobie18 for the race?
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 04:22 PM

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=99880
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Robi
Yeah exactly I have participated in too many search and rescue cases, and that particular section of ocean gets nasty really quick.

Its no joke.

These guys made it to Key West:

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

http://www.floatingcubans.com/
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 04:23 PM

Yeah in July not in November.

AND NOVEMBER IS STILL FREAKING HURRICANE SEASON!

If this race does go on I will have a chat with my top Guardian gurus so we can be on high alert.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 04:26 PM

Thanks Robles.

You da man. So is Tank.
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Thanks Robles.

You da man. So is Tank.
Tank approves! lol
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 04:34 PM

I also read/heard somewhere they are using a Hobie monohull as a support boat.
Posted By: pgp

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 04:41 PM

You never get pictures of those that don't make it.

Tad, you made my point exactly. If you look at the charts, the Gulf stream practically touches Singer Island (West Palm Beach). I sailed there once with the wind out of the north, not that much wind, but the seas were really rough. I can't imagine a small cat offshore in it.

Very cool though, lots of sargassum weed with the attendant critters, and flying fish.
Posted By: catman

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 05:44 PM

I don't want to turn this into a bunch of BS about boats but......

If I'm going out on the open ocean with my life on the line, I'd choose the H-18 over most any beach cat availible.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Its crossing the gulf stream Pete. Meaning that there's mondo current and waves can stack up pretty badly.

IMO, the race organizers need to be selectively reviewing the sailing resumes of all the registrants. I know that Chuck has told more than one person that they aren't ready to participate in the Tybee 500 which is, an order of magnitude safer than the Cuban race will be.


Not just the Gulf Stream but the current is funneled/bottlenecked between Fl and Cuba. I talked with the organizer at the GT 300 .He does not seem to be a "take a whack at it" kind of guy(he attempted a Worrell in the late 90's). I think they will have a sensible and safe(as possible) approach to this race. My worries lie more with the Dept. of treasury letting it go.
This IS'NT a novice type race!
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by catman
I don't want to turn this into a bunch of BS about boats but......

If I'm going out on the open ocean with my life on the line, I'd choose the H-18 over most any beach cat availible.


How many times have you done that(offshore racing on a H-18)?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
You never get pictures of those that don't make it.

Tad, you made my point exactly. If you look at the charts, the Gulf stream practically touches Singer Island (West Palm Beach). I sailed there once with the wind out of the north, not that much wind, but the seas were really rough. I can't imagine a small cat offshore in it.

Very cool though, lots of sargassum weed with the attendant critters, and flying fish.


The 2008 Tybee had sporty wind from the NE on that leg, it was LUMPY. Karl did a superb job of keeping his feet on the boat and grindin' out the puffs, it was tough. I didn't realize the Stream was so close there, but that explains alot.
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by catman
I don't want to turn this into a bunch of BS about boats but......

If I'm going out on the open ocean with my life on the line, I'd choose the H-18 over most any beach cat availible.
You Sir have a big set of cojones. I am saying that in a good way as well.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/05/09 09:31 PM

yeah you can always tell when you're in the stream when you look in the water and say "damn, thats blue" :P
Posted By: sbflyer

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/06/09 03:22 AM

Like this one?

Attached picture inside-hull.jpg
Attached picture front-water.jpg
Attached picture onwheels.jpg
Posted By: Mary

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/06/09 09:22 AM

All the past Cuba runs I know about have been done on Hobie 16's.
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/06/09 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Mary
All the past Cuba runs I know about have been done on Hobie 16's.
Yeah just like the Worrell 1000s, but who in there right mind will do that AGAIN today?
Posted By: catman

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/06/09 05:40 PM



I haven't, however over the 18 years I had that boat I put through hell. Buoys, distance. It was sailed almost daily for the first two years I had it. Crashing through waves with five people on board with two on the wire. The mid 80's boats had problems with the hulls as the pic's show. It's not the fastest or the best design but if I was going to do the race I would feel quite confidant on it.
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/06/09 06:51 PM

Catman,

I understand your point. Having sailed many boats, I've seen and heard of boats having widespread, or common problems, etc. Even the boats I've owned, etc.

I haven't checked the average prevailing winds for that area and that time of year. Those that have, what's common? Either direction be able to carry the chute, etc?

I have the experience with offshore distance races, experience crewing or driving with the kite up, long distances, buoys, etc. My current fitness level is great. I have the gear, and the money for my part, etc.

If I buy another boat, than I need crew who can do what I'm offering to do.

If anyone is interested, I'm @ 160#'s, etc.
Todd Bouton
Todd_Sails@yahoo.com
Posted By: HMurphey

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/06/09 07:43 PM

Robi,

Why are you "dissing" my favorite boat ... do you have something against a TheMightyHobie18??? I'll take a TheMightyHobie18 ANYTIME, ANYWHERE ... it is one tough boat and has brought me home safely EVERYTIME!!!! And yes most of that sailing has been off of "Atlantic Open Ocean" beaches. A TheMightyHobie18 was the first beach cat to transit the Atlantic on it's own bottoms (by two crazy frenchman) .... it is the only beach cat to transit the "Northwest Passage" also.

So you are dissing a very capable "clunker" ..... slowwer then a F18 or a N20, Yes ... but very capable!!!!

If the gentlemen in question wants a boat w/ "racks", it's either the H18SE w/ Magnum wings ... or the H21SE (which has wings) and spinnacker. And then there is the Mystere' 6.0 w/ wings also. The P19 and Nacra 5.8/6.0 all had a factory "wing" option availible but I never saw one installed and sailed. Only on boats at the A.C. Boat Show years ago and the wings looked fragile.

Ask Robbie Daniels about his years of racing a H21SE .... heavy, yes, but big strong and durable .....

And remember ... to finish first ... first you have to finish. I think this event will not be about pure boat speed ... but more about survival!!!!

Harry Murphey

PS: I would carry a "hand" bilge pump on board. A lesson/trick I learned from Mr Rick Bliss. Not a bad idea ... right Mr Todd????
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/06/09 09:20 PM

We love Hobie 18s!

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/06/09 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by HMurphey
Robi,

Why are you "dissing" my favorite boat ... do you have something against a TheMightyHobie18??? I'll take a TheMightyHobie18 ANYTIME, ANYWHERE ... it is one tough boat and has brought me home safely EVERYTIME!!!! And yes most of that sailing has been off of "Atlantic Open Ocean" beaches. A TheMightyHobie18 was the first beach cat to transit the Atlantic on it's own bottoms (by two crazy frenchman) .... it is the only beach cat to transit the "Northwest Passage" also.

So you are dissing a very capable "clunker" ..... slowwer then a F18 or a N20, Yes ... but very capable!!!!

If the gentlemen in question wants a boat w/ "racks", it's either the H18SE w/ Magnum wings ... or the H21SE (which has wings) and spinnacker. And then there is the Mystere' 6.0 w/ wings also. The P19 and Nacra 5.8/6.0 all had a factory "wing" option availible but I never saw one installed and sailed. Only on boats at the A.C. Boat Show years ago and the wings looked fragile.

Ask Robbie Daniels about his years of racing a H21SE .... heavy, yes, but big strong and durable .....

And remember ... to finish first ... first you have to finish. I think this event will not be about pure boat speed ... but more about survival!!!!

Harry Murphey

PS: I would carry a "hand" bilge pump on board. A lesson/trick I learned from Mr Rick Bliss. Not a bad idea ... right Mr Todd????
You know a lot of things in life are capable. I am sure people are capable of rowing across the pacific does it mean its safe? The Hobie 18 is perfectly capable, is it safe? HELL NO, any hobie 18 will be old and weathered, unless someone really overhauls that particular boat, it is NOT a good idea for such a crossing on a Hobie 18 or even a Hobie 16.

I know what I am capable of, I know my safety limits and one thing is for SURE, you will never catch me on a hobie 18 attempting such a thing.

To each its own. What bothers me is when people do not properly prepare and then expect my fellow Guardians to put there lives on the line for them. Just a few months ago we lost SEVEN folks, that is SEVEN, fathers, mothers, brothers sisters etc you name it while they were searching for a missing sailing vessel.

A good amount of years back a HH65 flew into a cliff off San Fracisco while looking for an overdue sailing that vessel that the next morning showed up at anchor.

The Coast Guard should NOT save stupidity and crossing from Key West to Cuba in a Hobie 14/16/18/ is plain STUPID.

The right boat for the right race. There is a reason why the Tybee is only limited to N20s and F18s.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/06/09 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Robi
any hobie 18 will be old and weathered

That is an overly broad statement, as Stephen Cooley will undoubtedly inform you.

Hobie 18's were available new up until a couple of years ago, and new hulls are being manufactured this spring.

ANY catamaran in anything but near-new condition has no business in this race.

Other than the difference in offwind speed, there's no reason why a Hobie 16 couldn't do this, just as they did the Worrell 1000 thirty-five years ago - without engaging the services of the US Coast Guard.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Mary

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/06/09 10:24 PM

I think the thing that makes the crossing more dangerous is doing it as a "race." If you do it in "cruise" mode, where you pick the best weather time and all the boats stay together and watch out for each other, or have a buddy system or something, it would be a lot safer. Do the triangle racing in Cuba, and then cruise back together as a fleet.
Posted By: HMurphey

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 12:24 AM

Matt,

Who is that on the wire????

It sure looks like a (much) younger Wally ....

Harry Murphey
Posted By: mbounds

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by HMurphey
Matt,

Who is that on the wire????

It sure looks like a (much) younger Wally ....

Harry Murphey


It's not Wally.

I'm not sure who it is, but the driver is almost certainly Mike Worrell.
Posted By: WindyHillF20

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 04:56 AM

A Hobie 18 with a spin is capable of making this crossing. Any boat or skipper/crew can fail. The 18 fitted with a spin is a curved crossbar away from qualifying as an F18, the rear beam meets the rule. What you ride the most is what you trust the most, my old TheMightyHobie18 is more than capable of making this voyage!
Posted By: ejpoulsen

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by mbounds

[Linked Image]


"*This event is neither sponsored nor endorsed by the Hobie Class Assoc."
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 03:08 PM

I would agree that making it a "race" adds another layer of complexity and hazard than "cruise". But two boats together rarely "cruise".... smile

Given average conditions on the proposed route, what would be the minimum reasonable craft that could make the journey in the designated time period?

I guess it would be ideal to have boats with similar capabilities, in order to keep the "fleet" in reasonable proximity to the support craft.

And I agree with Robi, I don't believe that our tax money should be spent bailing out the reckless and/or foolish who venture into something wholely unprepared. I know it happens, but I still don't like it..
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 03:32 PM

Right now, my concerns stem mostly from the organizers. In a recent article in SA, it was stated that there are already 33 teams signed up. Who are these teams and where did they sign up? There is nothing on the website regarding registering. Also, the use of a Hobie 33 is a concern. A boat that will not be able to keep up with the fleet under power of under sail will not be much of a chase boat.
Posted By: wildtsail

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 04:53 PM

+1 plus i'd want to see a letter from someone in the government granting us permission to go.
Also... I think maybe the event should be stretched out a day on each side so that there is the oppurtunity to postpone for a weather window. That way if it's looking sketchy they can change.
Posted By: catman

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 05:05 PM

I don't know for sure but since you choose the N-20 and F-18"s I guess we have to ask. These boats never break? I've read about the bow tangs failing on N-20's. You can't furl the jib on these boat to shorten sail if needed.

What are the chances of a plastic sail surviving during a capsize if someone lands in it? Zero from experience. On the H-18 I would aim for it, never had a failure.

Like I said I don't want to turn this into a boat thing. You can make a case for or against any boat.

Just so we understand. "Open Ocean" to me doesn't mean coastal sailing/ racing in the Gulf, Atlantic, etc. To me it means out of sight and simple communication with land. I have been on the open ocean sailing/racing Mono's.

How many people here have true open ocean experience on cats?

Just thinking, Hans sailed to Mexico from Florida two different times on a G-5.7. Would that boat qualify to make the passage?

I agree with you about the dangers of the race. Like anything be prepared as best as you can and then cross your fingers. Hopefully the organizers will plan for chase boats to shadow the fleet.

Remember, you choose that line of work. Taking to the Sea or Air for any reason presents dangers.
I don't think you'll find anyone that doesn't agree with you when you speak of the dangers of your job and I sincerely thank you and your kind.



Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 05:38 PM

Quote
I've read about the bow tangs failing on N-20's. You can't furl the jib on these boat to shorten sail if needed.


I've read of exactly one breaking on these forums. Its certainly not a pandemic. N20's are subject to all the regular causes of boat failure. Poor maintenance, reckless abuse, catastrophic accidents do not escape the 20 or the F18s.

What they do give is a balance of performance, seaworthiness, and reliability. The reasons I have for thinking that the TheMightyHobie18 is not well suited to this race has to do with the fact that its simply not up to par in the performance meter with the other competitive boats.

If the event turns into more of a race than a rally, and the organizers get more than a pigboat Hobie 33 as a chase boat, then I'll seriously consider doing this race. (if it even happens, which I put at 50/50)
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by catman
I don't know for sure but since you choose the N-20 and F-18"s I guess we have to ask. These boats never break? I've read about the bow tangs failing on N-20's. You can't furl the jib on these boat to shorten sail if needed.

What are the chances of a plastic sail surviving during a capsize if someone lands in it? Zero from experience. On the H-18 I would aim for it, never had a failure.

Like I said I don't want to turn this into a boat thing. You can make a case for or against any boat.

Just so we understand. "Open Ocean" to me doesn't mean coastal sailing/ racing in the Gulf, Atlantic, etc. To me it means out of sight and simple communication with land. I have been on the open cean sailing/racing Mono's.

How many people here have true open ocean experience on cats?

Just thinking, Hans sailed to Mexico from Florida two different times on a G-5.7. Would that boat qualify to make the passage?

I agree with you about the dangers of the race. Like anything be prepared as best as you can and then cross your fingers. Hopefully the organizers will plan for chase boats to shadow the fleet.

Remember, you choose that line of work. Taking to the Sea or Air for any reason presents dangers.
I don't think you'll find anyone that doesn't agree with you when you speak of the dangers of your job and I sincerely thank you and your kind.





Exactly why I question the choice of chase boats for this event, and why I have already arranged for a chase boat of my own.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Exactly why I question the choice of chase boats for this event, and why I have already arranged for a chase boat of my own.


I think that's the only way I'd do it, but I don't have much experience on big water, and I'm a bit of a pussy.
Posted By: Jake

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Originally Posted by catman
I don't know for sure but since you choose the N-20 and F-18"s I guess we have to ask. These boats never break? I've read about the bow tangs failing on N-20's. You can't furl the jib on these boat to shorten sail if needed.

What are the chances of a plastic sail surviving during a capsize if someone lands in it? Zero from experience. On the H-18 I would aim for it, never had a failure.

Like I said I don't want to turn this into a boat thing. You can make a case for or against any boat.

Just so we understand. "Open Ocean" to me doesn't mean coastal sailing/ racing in the Gulf, Atlantic, etc. To me it means out of sight and simple communication with land. I have been on the open cean sailing/racing Mono's.

How many people here have true open ocean experience on cats?

Just thinking, Hans sailed to Mexico from Florida two different times on a G-5.7. Would that boat qualify to make the passage?

I agree with you about the dangers of the race. Like anything be prepared as best as you can and then cross your fingers. Hopefully the organizers will plan for chase boats to shadow the fleet.

Remember, you choose that line of work. Taking to the Sea or Air for any reason presents dangers.
I don't think you'll find anyone that doesn't agree with you when you speak of the dangers of your job and I sincerely thank you and your kind.





Exactly why I question the choice of chase boats for this event, and why I have already arranged for a chase boat of my own.


Karl, if I do this race, will you be my chase boat? grin
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 06:57 PM

Most likely. Seems the only time I am ever in front of you is when I am crewing for you. frown
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 07:34 PM

We're still trying to figure out where Jake got that extra gear.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 07:38 PM

Rotomolded boats don't break as often, do they? Sure, the rally may take 4 days to cross (either direction), but they won't break....
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
We're still trying to figure out where Jake got that extra gear.

I sold my 20. He's your problem now!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Rotomolded boats don't break as often, do they? Sure, the rally may take 4 days to cross (either direction), but they won't break....


Are you gonna do it in a Bravo?
Posted By: Mary

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 08:38 PM

Quote
Exactly why I question the choice of chase boats for this event, and why I have already arranged for a chase boat of my own.

I would think the type/size of chase boats would be more of a problem than the type of cats to use -- if the ocean is rough, it can be a lot more difficult and dangerous for powerboats than for sailboats.
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/07/09 09:57 PM

Everglades 290cc
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/08/09 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Also, the use of a Hobie 33 is a concern. A boat that will not be able to keep up with the fleet under power of under sail will not be much of a chase boat.


I disagree. A boat that will not be able to keep up will be exactly that, a chase boat. Chasing the whole way.
Posted By: Jake

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/08/09 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Also, the use of a Hobie 33 is a concern. A boat that will not be able to keep up with the fleet under power of under sail will not be much of a chase boat.


I disagree. A boat that will not be able to keep up will be exactly that, a chase boat. Chasing the whole way.


You took the words right out of my mind.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/09/09 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by andrewscott

Are you gonna do it in a Bravo?


Maybe Rick's "Super WAVE" design
Posted By: H17cat

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/12/09 10:52 PM

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091212/D9CHT6T80.html
Posted By: Will_R

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/17/09 10:53 PM

Looking into doing the race and might I say that the list of potential boats to use does NOT include a H-18....

IMO, speed is safety to a point. The longer you're out there, the more chance of something going wrong.
Posted By: arbo06

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 03:26 AM

How many chase boats are needed and how many cats are expected?
I see that there will be boats that finish fast and boats that lag behind. You will need several chase/rescue boats. There has to ba a boat taking uo the rear to insure (ensure)complete safety. I think at least 3 power boats, 1 to watch the front, 1 to watch the middle and 1 to watch the last boat, all with cameras to document the action.
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by arbo06
How many chase boats are needed and how many cats are expected?
I see that there will be boats that finish fast and boats that lag behind. You will need several chase/rescue boats. There has to ba a boat taking uo the rear to insure (ensure)complete safety. I think at least 3 power boats, 1 to watch the front, 1 to watch the middle and 1 to watch the last boat, all with cameras to document the action.
Eric with the differences in speed; specially some boats from another I dont see what you have brought up happening, NOT one bit.

I hope this image opens up the big issue.

[Linked Image]

If I am wrong someone by all means correct me.
If anyone runs into trouble even the chase boats, I am sure they will call the Coast Guard, its a massive area. Once 1/3rd of the way down regular VHF-FM radios will not have the range necessary to reach Key West. Maybe a good sam can relay the message north bound. Once Key West gets the distress signal, it will most likely launch a Helicopter from Miami (its a 45min flight from Miami To Key West then we have to refuel add another hour) that's 1:45 before we can actually start heading your way. By this time the SAR controller will have a search area. We launch a Datum Marker Buoy to track current. Once we get the information we might be able to have any idea where you are. If not consider the amount of square mileage required to search and area.

Maybe they will launch a C130 from Clearwater, its an hour flight, once they find anyone if they actually find anyone they will relay to launch a Helo (look at the second paragraph)

Draw up your own conclusions...

The image was done to scale with a Google maps, LXI Master for vector squares and finished off with Photosop CS3 cropping and painting the squares. Do not put a ruler to your screen because it will NOT measure out.
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 06:15 AM

That is more or less 3,450 square miles, the darker blue. Subtract that we cannot get any closer than 10 miles from Cuban shores.

Cuba does not have a Coast Guard as capable as the US.

Hopefully those who are doing this race fully understand what they are getting themselves into with this crossing.
Posted By: arbo06

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 12:49 PM

I'm not going...... Steeple Chase is enough for me
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 03:55 PM

I still want to go, C'mon.

I have the off-shore experience, skills, equipment, money, time off, etc.

PM me, or
Todd_Sails@yahoo.com

Todd Bouton
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Will_R
Looking into doing the race and might I say that the list of potential boats to use does NOT include a H-18....

IMO, speed is safety to a point. The longer you're out there, the more chance of something going wrong.


Wait a minute...I just read this thread where a few people were arguing that a N20 was safer offshore than a TheMightyHobie18. That might be true, but lets put it in perspective.
No beach cat would even rank as 'safe offshore sailboats' due to their open configuration. Robi, correct me if I'm wrong. Most boaters die from exposure, therefore, even a 1978 Santana 22 would be infinitely 'safer' than the nicest brand new F18.

The safety ranking would look like:
x)
x)somethng with a cabin
x)
x)
x)
Then waaaaaay down the list, almost at the bottom next to the kayaks and faaar down from the Santana 22...
x)
x)
x)
x) N20
x) TheMightyHobie18
x) Kayak
x) open canoe
x) kiteboard

My point is that on a safety scale the TheMightyHobie18 and n20 are not that different.

j


Posted By: Mary

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 05:48 PM

This may have been posted before, but it is a video that was made of the KWACS doing one of their trips to Cuba on Hobie 16's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjP8nbIhXOQ

If the organizer of the Cuban Run wants George Bellenger's phone number to ask him questions, send me a private message and I'll give it to you.

George has made five crossings to Cuba, mostly solo, so he knows the waters well. He also has had quite a bit of experience with the government agencies involved.

P.S. As you watch that video, keep in mind that waves never seem to look as big as they are in either still photos or videos.
Posted By: Mary

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 05:56 PM

The last time Bellenger made the crossing was 10 years ago, so he doesn't know if things have changed as far as government regulations. But one thing is certain -- the Gulf Stream hasn't changed.
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
Originally Posted by Will_R
Looking into doing the race and might I say that the list of potential boats to use does NOT include a H-18....

IMO, speed is safety to a point. The longer you're out there, the more chance of something going wrong.


Wait a minute...I just read this thread where a few people were arguing that a N20 was safer offshore than a TheMightyHobie18. That might be true, but lets put it in perspective.
No beach cat would even rank as 'safe offshore sailboats' due to their open configuration. Robi, correct me if I'm wrong. Most boaters die from exposure, therefore, even a 1978 Santana 22 would be infinitely 'safer' than the nicest brand new F18.

The safety ranking would look like:
x)
x)somethng with a cabin
x)
x)
x)
Then waaaaaay down the list, almost at the bottom next to the kayaks and faaar down from the Santana 22...
x)
x)
x)
x) N20
x) TheMightyHobie18
x) Kayak
x) open canoe
x) kiteboard

My point is that on a safety scale the TheMightyHobie18 and n20 are not that different.

j


Very true, people perish from exposure. When comparing the TheMightyHobie18 to a N20, the advantage of an N20 is it is much faster, making your exposure smaller. The faster you can get in and out the better it is overall.

This is why faster is better for something like this. The faster teams will be less exposed, because they will finish the crossing in a much faster time.
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Mary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjP8nbIhXOQ

If the organizer of the Cuban Run wants George Bellenger's phone number to ask him questions, send me a private message and I'll give it to you.

George has made five crossings to Cuba, mostly solo, so he knows the waters well. He also has had quite a bit of experience with the government agencies involved.

P.S. As you watch that video, keep in mind that waves never seem to look as big as they are in either still photos or videos.


So there you go guys. Any more questions?
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Mugrace72
Originally Posted by Mary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjP8nbIhXOQ

If the organizer of the Cuban Run wants George Bellenger's phone number to ask him questions, send me a private message and I'll give it to you.

George has made five crossings to Cuba, mostly solo, so he knows the waters well. He also has had quite a bit of experience with the government agencies involved.

P.S. As you watch that video, keep in mind that waves never seem to look as big as they are in either still photos or videos.


So there you go guys. Any more questions?
Yes, the one I have been asking since the day I found about this race. If anyone gets in trouble who will they call?
How will they make that call?
Posted By: Jake

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 07:31 PM

~timidly~ ghostbusters?


smile
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
~timidly~ ghostbusters?


smile
LOL! it took longer than what I thought for someone to come up with that reply. LMAO!!!
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 08:50 PM

I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to have Robi's personal cell phone on speed dial.
Posted By: Jake

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 09:02 PM

sat phone?
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 09:15 PM



Quote
Very true, people perish from exposure. When comparing the TheMightyHobie18 to a N20, the advantage of an N20 is it is much faster, making your exposure smaller. The faster you can get in and out the better it is overall.

This is why faster is better for something like this. The faster teams will be less exposed, because they will finish the crossing in a much faster time.


I don't believe exposure is the issue when all is well and either boat/crew is performing optimally. An hour or few difference is all we are talking about.

However, when either boat/crew is disabled, the exposure/survival issue progressively gets more critical.

At best, rescue resources will be limited. I wouldn't count on the organization to be able to provide much. USCG will do whatever is within their capability, but keep in mind that if conditions are bad, there will be more than one of you needing assistance and there will certainly be non-racer related missions that the Guardians will be attending to as well.

An EPIRB might be more useful than a VHF, but the VHF will be handy when rescue is nearby. Only the Coast Guard will be able to receive the EPIRB signal however. Chase boats would not have locating abilities.

A tough and unsinkable boat makes more sense than a fast complex boat IMO.

Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 09:20 PM

Bingo...
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
sat phone?


Can you keep it dry enough to work reliably when in peril?

We lost an I-phone and GPS in the Steeple chase last week, 1/2 mile from shore. I'm sure you Tybee guys have all sorts of stories about failed/lost/water-logged comminication gear.

Then again, it probably will be a milk run and everyone will be sunburned while they are sipping Mojitos and smokin' Diplomaticos! cool

Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Mugrace72
Originally Posted by Jake
sat phone?


Can you keep it dry enough to work reliably when in peril?

We lost an I-phone and GPS in the Steeple chase last week, 1/2 mile from shore. I'm sure you Tybee guys have all sorts of stories about failed/lost/water-logged comminication gear.

Then again, it probably will be a milk run and everyone will be sunburned while they are sipping Mojitos and smokin' Diplomaticos! cool

I prefer Montecristos, smooth and sweet.
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 09:48 PM

1 gps is never enough. Always take 2. Don't ask me how I know! (btw, I had 2)

Keeping spare batteries sealed in a ziplock bag, that is sealed in another ziplock bag, that is sealed in a drybag, is not enough protection. Don't ask me how I know.

Removing batteries from the flashlight/strobe will get your GPS working again, but you'll have a damn hard time doing it in the dark (no flashlight). Don't ask me how I know.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 10:38 PM

Have you Tybee guys ever tried putting your electronics into the vacuum seal freezer type bags? I've stored rifles that way, and thought it might work for stuff on the boat. If you gotta open it you're screwed, but you really shouldn't have to anyway I'd think.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/18/09 10:40 PM

Just watched the video Mary posted. Made me think that lots of 3M reflective tape would be a good idea. Including the bottoms of the hulls/beams.
Posted By: arbo06

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/19/09 12:38 AM

Would we have to carry rifles to Cuba? Todd?
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/19/09 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by arbo06
Would we have to carry rifles to Cuba? Todd?


Not a good idea.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/19/09 03:26 AM

Karl: usually a hefty dry bag; not the ones that look like heavy duty ziplock bags - I'm talking about the roll the top down and clasp bag - plus IPX7 or 8 waterproof rating is a good combination.

However, In my case - electronics die from just plain abuse while on the boat. We're not gentle on the stuff and I can't tell you how many foretrex flew off my wrist (not because of the pin - but because the damn thing slid down my wrist). This past Tybee we managed to lose a foretrex and then during the last leg (disaster) launch, I landed on top of the GPSMAP76 and cracked the screen when we launched off a wave.
Posted By: Jake

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/19/09 04:17 AM

wrist gps, Garmin 76 taped to the boom (in a drybag), and another 76 in another drybag in a trampoline pocket. A tactic solar digital compass on the pole.

On a long day, turn the gps units off (yes, even your primary) until you need them....no point in having them on while sailing along coastline and you know you're hours away. On open ocean, use the compass, check the gps periodically to refresh you bearing. Changing batteries is a painful exercise.
Posted By: Keith

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/19/09 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mugrace72


Quote
Very true, people perish from exposure. When comparing the TheMightyHobie18 to a N20, the advantage of an N20 is it is much faster, making your exposure smaller. The faster you can get in and out the better it is overall.

This is why faster is better for something like this. The faster teams will be less exposed, because they will finish the crossing in a much faster time.


I don't believe exposure is the issue when all is well and either boat/crew is performing optimally. An hour or few difference is all we are talking about.

However, when either boat/crew is disabled, the exposure/survival issue progressively gets more critical.

At best, rescue resources will be limited. I wouldn't count on the organization to be able to provide much. USCG will do whatever is within their capability, but keep in mind that if conditions are bad, there will be more than one of you needing assistance and there will certainly be non-racer related missions that the Guardians will be attending to as well.

An EPIRB might be more useful than a VHF, but the VHF will be handy when rescue is nearby. Only the Coast Guard will be able to receive the EPIRB signal however. Chase boats would not have locating abilities.

A tough and unsinkable boat makes more sense than a fast complex boat IMO.



A few things. Don't discount exposure issues even when things are going "optimally". Over that distance fatigue and even a little chill, small cuts, a little sunburn, etc. grow in significance. And if you've been out there longer before things go bad, you're starting from a more weakened state. Take into account how one can handle the situation if the other is disabled. Not turn anybody into worry bags, but simply things to consider.

An EPIRB/PLB (one for each crew, on their bodies) is essential (required for this event I'm sure), and if you can't raise anyone on the VHF (one for each crew, on their bodies) you'll need to trip it. You need to register the unit providing contact info - that should be the race officials, and when they are contacted they should be able to get coordinates (which may be old, but can provide the race folk with a starting point to search for your bodies). That having been said, you must be willing, prepared, and able to do as much as possible for yourself and your crew before setting it off. Comments about you not being the only one in need of help if things are bad are spot on. Hopefully a forecast window will be analyzed to minimize that potential.

I'm guessing that over the distance, the difference in finishing time between an N-20 and H-18 may be significant, depending on the conditions. I've owned both (and others), and I have to say at this point I am pretty impressed at what the N-20 can take and do. So, if I were to do this event, I'd take tough, unsinkable, AND fast, thank you. But maybe chasing in the F-27 might make more sense...
Posted By: Will_R

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/20/09 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
1 gps is never enough. Always take 2. Don't ask me how I know! (btw, I had 2)


Toasted 3 in the '02 W1k in two days...
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/20/09 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by arbo06
Would we have to carry rifles to Cuba? Todd?


Definitely!!!
Lot's of 'em. laugh
Posted By: John Williams

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/20/09 05:59 PM

And lawyers... and money...
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/20/09 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
And lawyers... and money...

That's what they say.
Posted By: B Carlson

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/21/09 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
And lawyers... and money...


They are only needed once the @#&%! has hit the fan! Fortunately, as the story goes, they can be sent after the fact.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/21/09 04:36 PM

speaking with a very small amount of experience, things seem to get all wierd when you lose sight of land. especially if it starts getting dark (beit cloud or sunset)... don't ask me how I know.
Posted By: Will_R

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/21/09 05:20 PM

So.... is anyone here actually considering doing the race?

I'm excited at the prospect, but realize there are quite a few risks involved.
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/21/09 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Will_R
So.... is anyone here actually considering doing the race?

I'm excited at the prospect, but realize there are quite a few risks involved.


I think it is a little strange that we see nothing from the organizers to dispel rumor and innuendo.
Posted By: Jake

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/21/09 05:59 PM

we do have a small semi-closed community here...it's possible they just don't know this thread is here.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/21/09 06:21 PM

http://groups.google.com/group/the-cuba-run, there is a contact person listed.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/21/09 06:30 PM

I tried to contact the organizer contact by phone, but didn't get a response. I did receive an email and it said we were "registered." I would like to talk to someone at least on the phone before getting into something like this.

Having one or two H33s accompanying us isn't what I call safety. Hull speed of like 8 knots will take a long time to get to anyone in peril.

I do think the boats should be similar so we can stay somewhat 'together.' Of course, a well maintained TheMightyHobie18 can make it, but they would likey be way behind the main pack, and if the safety boat follows the last boat, then they won't be anywhere near the 'bunch' to help, especially if the spinnakers pop out.

EPIRBs, SAT phone, multiple GPSs, glow sticks, reflective tape, VHF, backlit compass, flashlights, plenty of spare parts, and even a radar reflecter might be a good idea.
Posted By: Will_R

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/21/09 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
we do have a small semi-closed community here...it's possible they just don't know this thread is here.


yeahbut... we have a sizable percentage of the cat sailing community in the US represented here. I'd expect that regardless of the organizers knowing that this thread existed there would be someone here interested in doing this race.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/21/09 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by DUH

I do think the boats should be similar so we can stay somewhat 'together.' Of course, a well maintained TheMightyHobie18 can make it, but they would likey be way behind the main pack, and if the safety boat follows the last boat, then they won't be anywhere near the 'bunch' to help, especially if the spinnakers pop out.


If the chase boats are Hobie 33's they will most definately be following the last boat. Even Hobie Waves are allowed to race.
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/21/09 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
If the chase boats are Hobie 33's they will most definately be following the last boat. Even Hobie Waves are allowed to race.
Now thats just ridiculous. Hobie Wave skipper and race organizers should be fined and charged the cost of any search and rescue required, if it came down to that.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/21/09 10:02 PM

JACKFLASH: only production beach cats from 18' to 22' are allowed. Waves do not fit the minimum requirements.
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/21/09 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Will_R
So.... is anyone here actually considering doing the race?

I'm excited at the prospect, but realize there are quite a few risks involved.


I'm registered for the race, sailing with Jamie Livingston.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/22/09 04:29 AM

I'm registered, I've talked with the organizer, and I still have alot of questions.
Posted By: wildtsail

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/22/09 03:36 PM

Where are you guys registering? I can't find anywhere to do it.
Is there a preregistration list anywhere?

I'm interested but still have a lot of questions as well.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/22/09 10:55 PM

I've been sitting back reading all this and feel I need to finally chime in. I've been in close contact with John Webster on this since early last summer. Some rules are still to be ironed out as far as requirements. It's not a "sign up and you can come do it" type of event. ALL sailors will have to "prove" thier capabilities either through a resume or by references. Chase boats aren't completely designated yet. There may be a power chase boat. I told John about this thread. I'm sure he will respond sooner or later but all questions will probably be answered on or through the official website.
So, all you "armchair sailors" trying to decide who's going to pay the "rescue bills" should relax and suck your chests back in before you have a stroke. More details will be addressed as soon as possible. If you don't have the skills or experience to do this type of event, maybe think twice before you keep posting some of your "expert opinions".
Wondering about safety equipment? I'm not the one who wrote the rules but I'm betting on EPirbs, GPS, strobes, flares, Sat Phones (although we have hit and miss results with them, even the race organizer has had a bad experience with one), compass, charts, safety teather with quick release. These are some of the things we use in the Tybee and GT and have come to know and trust them. No reason not to require them here.
Some of you who are ACTUALLY going to do this event can pm me and I'll give you my number if you want to talk to someone about this to get anymore insight.

Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/22/09 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
I've been sitting back reading all this and feel I need to finally chime in. I've been in close contact with John Webster on this since early last summer. Some rules are still to be ironed out as far as requirements. It's not a "sign up and you can come do it" type of event. ALL sailors will have to "prove" thier capabilities either through a resume or by references. Chase boats aren't completely designated yet. There may be a power chase boat. I told John about this thread. I'm sure he will respond sooner or later but all questions will probably be answered on or through the official website.
So, all you "armchair sailors" trying to decide who's going to pay the "rescue bills" should relax and suck your chests back in before you have a stroke. More details will be addressed as soon as possible. If you don't have the skills or experience to do this type of event, maybe think twice before you keep posting some of your "expert opinions".
Wondering about safety equipment? I'm not the one who wrote the rules but I'm betting on EPirbs, GPS, strobes, flares, Sat Phones (although we have hit and miss results with them, even the race organizer has had a bad experience with one), compass, charts, safety teather with quick release. These are some of the things we use in the Tybee and GT and have come to know and trust them. No reason not to require them here.
Some of you who are ACTUALLY going to do this event can pm me and I'll give you my number if you want to talk to someone about this to get anymore insight.

WOW there cowboy, let me tell you something. First of all I aint no arm chair sailor. Ive done my fair share of distance racing, solo and crewed. My resume isnt as extensive as some folks here, but I understands the rigors behind it all.
Secondly I have a much longer resume than anyone on this site or even the sailors in rescue operations. My intent with this thread was to open the eyes of those who think this is a jump across a puddle.

My concern is the newbie sailors who will expose themselves to a uncertain playing field and the race organizers who let such newbies in the game.

When you understand the logistics, cost, man power and LIVES it takes to search for anyone you will understand. TILL THEN dont you call anyone here arm chair sailors. And NO I WILL NOT suck my chest back because you feel the need to say so. If something were to happen its THOUSANDS of miles of a search area, read my other posts and even the home brewed map I created.

You have a lot of nerve to post what you just posted, specially saying "There MAY (just MAY) be chase boats, what kind of chase boats and what is there range?

Seriously do you have any idea what this race entails?
The risk vs gain to me is just not worth it. I wish the best to all the sailor. I can tell you thing for sure is, I will be very worried when this event goes down, not only for the sailors but for the folks who put there lives on the line to help others.

Seeing how the FL straights is in our area of operations (AOR) USCG I will make sure my high command is very aware of what is going on and I will suggest a higher alert.
Posted By: arbo06

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 12:06 AM

Good on you Robi. This is not a coastal race. A high level of supervision is in order.
Posted By: flumpmaster

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
I've been sitting back reading all this and feel I need to finally chime in. I've been in close contact with John Webster on this since early last summer. Some rules are still to be ironed out as far as requirements. It's not a "sign up and you can come do it" type of event. ALL sailors will have to "prove" thier capabilities either through a resume or by references. Chase boats aren't completely designated yet. There may be a power chase boat. I told John about this thread. I'm sure he will respond sooner or later but all questions will probably be answered on or through the official website.
So, all you "armchair sailors" trying to decide who's going to pay the "rescue bills" should relax and suck your chests back in before you have a stroke. More details will be addressed as soon as possible. If you don't have the skills or experience to do this type of event, maybe think twice before you keep posting some of your "expert opinions".
Wondering about safety equipment? I'm not the one who wrote the rules but I'm betting on EPirbs, GPS, strobes, flares, Sat Phones (although we have hit and miss results with them, even the race organizer has had a bad experience with one), compass, charts, safety teather with quick release. These are some of the things we use in the Tybee and GT and have come to know and trust them. No reason not to require them here.
Some of you who are ACTUALLY going to do this event can pm me and I'll give you my number if you want to talk to someone about this to get anymore insight.



the defense department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid. smile
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 05:53 AM

loved that line
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 07:08 AM

Quote
There MAY (just MAY) be chase boats


If you're going to quote me, get it right, it's not that tough.

Quote
My concern is the newbie sailors who will expose themselves to a uncertain playing field and the race organizers who let such newbies in the game.



Once again read the post I made about experience. Who has said anything about it being a "jump across the pond"? That's where I point out the fact that if you have little experience with these types of events, think about what you post. If you think the organizers will ALLOW newbies do it, then you're wrong.

Quote
When you understand the logistics, cost, man power and LIVES it takes to search for anyone you will understand. TILL THEN dont you call anyone here arm chair sailors. And NO I WILL NOT suck my chest back because you feel the need to say so. If something were to happen its THOUSANDS of miles of a search area, read my other posts and even the home brewed map I created.


Until I see you at a serious long distance event that requires open ocean navigation and skills, I will assume you are an "arm chair distance sailor" every time you post advise about the subject. I've read all your posts including the "home brewed map" I'm sure charts, GPS's and EPIRBS will be used in leiu of your map.

Quote
You have a lot of nerve to post what you just posted


Mutual feelings after reading all your posts about this.

Quote
Seriously do you have any idea what this race entails?
The risk vs gain to me is just not worth it.


Yes, that's why we do it. Obviously it isn't worth it to you. It's not for everyone thats for sure. Not knocking anyone who choses not to do it based on ther own threshold limit value for adventure, I just don't think they should be considered experts on the subject. Experts on plucking victims from the water yes, and I salute you for that but that is far different than preparing and actually doing this type of sailing.







Posted By: Hullflyer1

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 12:33 PM

Here it goes again, another thread getting nasty
Posted By: wildtsail

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 02:39 PM

Robi versus Lee... now that'd be a clash of the Titans smile
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Hullflyer1
Here it goes again, another thread getting nasty


But it took 10 pages and considering the subject and tone from the get go that's pretty impressive. Maybe it's the holiday season that is keeping the sh!t fights at bay.
Posted By: Will_R

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 03:36 PM

I'll pose this question....

What is more dangerous, night legs in the Worrell or this?

I've done those night legs... IMO, the 95 miles to Cuba is probably safer.
Posted By: Robi

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by wildtsail
Robi versus Lee... now that'd be a clash of the Titans smile
No need to clash Todd, I am just posting from MY point of view which is a bit different from the experienced distance sailor.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 08:22 PM

I just hate seeing tax dollars spent looking for those people who were wholely unprepared for any type of expedition (climbing, sailing, diving, hiking, etc).

Prudence on the part of organizers is warranted. How do you properly 'vett' a sailor for an offshore race? Just being offshore?

Being that part of this course will be out of sight of any landmass, is there any required test of navigation?

How about first aid? MOB? CPR?
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 09:31 PM

No clash. There just seems to be alot of assumptions being made and worst case cenarios based on those assumptions. The Great Texas Race is done now with full notification of the Coast Guard in each leg of the race. They know each team and are aware of our route and number of boats. We even see them out on the water the first part of the first leg. They did a fly by on us near Corpus. Leg one of the GT will put you about 40 miles off ANY land mass if you take the rhumb line (which we did last year again). I know the risks. So do many others who do it. Hell, I flipped out there in 08 and got separated from the boat with my eardrum getting busted in the process. I was able to get back to the boat and continue but point being, we know the risks. Had I not made it back to the boat, I probably would have not made it to shore till the next morning. We do have EPIRBS. Robi, does the Coast Guard not use those or something? Not being a smart butt but wouldn't that cut down the area to be searched on your map?
In a nutshell, my interpretation of your posts is that you think that just anyone can come do this event without any scrutinazation from the organizers. I'm trying to tell you that it's not the case as more details will be made available shortly. There is a Safety Officer. He is the same Safety Officer who does the Great Texas Race. He is the one who spearheaded the operation of getting the Coast Guard involved with the race and there is no reason for me to believe he wont be just as effective with The Cuba Run.
Posted By: Will_R

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 09:57 PM

I saw on another sailing forum where someone said, "I've only been sailing two years, this sounds like a great race, I've got to get X boat so that I can do it"

I wanted to chime in but didn't feel like joining the conversation... i don't think people like that are going to be allowed to enter.

I think this is a case of personal responsibility too. If the RC deems you fit to do the race, you have to accept the peril that you are putting yourself in. I think there are only two and MAYBE three skippers at the most that I would do this race with.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 10:14 PM

I have poked some fun at the chase boat aspect of this race at the expense of the organizers who are putting their hearts and soul into it. I officially apologize and retract my previous two statements.
All kidding aside the caliber of people who will be on this race are those that know that sailing is an inherantly dangerous sport and they are accepting up front the posibilities of their actions.
To the men and women of the US Coast Gaurd, I want to say thank you for all that you do...except for the time you pulled me over because their were three girls in bikinis on board. We know that you risk your lives each day to save our. I am just curious why you do that? Is it maybe for the same reason we go put ourselves in harms way in the first place? Because deep down we are hooked on adrenalin?
To those who do this race...God Speed.
Posted By: pgp

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/23/09 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
. . . We know that you risk your lives each day to save our. I am just curious why you do that? Is it maybe for the same reason we go put ourselves in harms way in the first place? Because deep down we are hooked on adrenalin?


Maybe for a sense of worth, like their job actually matters?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/28/09 03:10 PM

It is good to know that there will be some scrutiny placed on the boats and sailors. The one thing that most people are overlooking here is the potential damage to the reputation of this event should something go horribly wrong. "International Incident" hazard aside, if someone were lost on this race, it would make a lot of headlines with unneeded (negative) publicity

I think it would be nice to share the selection criteria especially if there are those organizers thinking of new and challenging races/venues who might benefit from the shared wisdom...

Good question on the EPIRBs. The CG is now using the new frequency now, right? with the GPS and owner information?
Posted By: Will_R

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/28/09 04:52 PM

If you read the rules, there is required equipment for each sailor to carry on their person; sat epirb or sat phone along with gps, flares and other stuff.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/28/09 08:43 PM

"what's the worst that could happen?"

That one Fastnet race springs to mind... but I was more worried about colliding with "go fasts" at night.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/28/09 09:08 PM

I don't know why I was thinking about this race last night but I had a thought regarding the danger level and possible bad publicity plus the possible need for others to go into harms way to save you. Mankinds history is dotted with undertakings of dangerous proportions both to better the human race and for personal reasons as well. Here are a few endeavors that come to mind. I'll bet at the time everyone said they were crazy.

Breaking the sound barrier
Going into space
Going to the moon
Private citizen going into space (X Prize)
Wright Brothers
NASCAR
The Race contestants (Giant Cats and Tri racing around the world)
Hydropheter
Fastnet
Around Alone aka Vende Globe

The list goes on.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/28/09 09:11 PM

don't forget sailing AROUND the world to get to india smile
Posted By: mbounds

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/28/09 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
I don't know why I was thinking about this race last night but I had a thought regarding the danger level and possible bad publicity plus the possible need for others to go into harms way to save you. Mankinds history is dotted with undertakings of dangerous proportions both to better the human race and for personal reasons as well. Here are a few endeavors that come to mind. I'll bet at the time everyone said they were crazy.

Breaking the sound barrier
Going into space
Going to the moon
Private citizen going into space (X Prize)
Wright Brothers
NASCAR
The Race contestants (Giant Cats and Tri racing around the world)
Hydropheter
Fastnet
Around Alone aka Vende Globe

The list goes on.


Oh, please. The race to Cuba doesn't even register on that list.

Do you think that anyone will remember who won this race in 10 years?

Get real.
Posted By: stevefisherkeller

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/28/09 10:01 PM

Floating Cubans
This page is dedicated to the ingenuity and entrepreneurial spirit of the various Cuban refugees who have attempted to sail to the United States on homemade vessels cleverly crafted from old American cars. Unfortunately, often they have been caught before reaching American soil, and returned to Cuba. Here's to you, floating Cubans! Your cleverness and your persistence inspire me. May you all achieve your goal, and finally reach the land of McDonald's, Disney, and Coca-Cola.

The Original Cuban Truck Raft
The original attempt at reaching the United States was done with a converted 1951 Chevy pickup truck on July 16, 2003. The truck's drive shaft was attached directly to a propeller and the craft could reportedly reach a leisurely 7 knots (8 mph). 55-gallon oil drums were used for flotation. The dozen or so Cubans in the truck were caught just south of Key West after being sighted by a U.S. Customs aircraft.


Starboard side of the truck raft. Photograph taken by the U.S. Coast Guard. Click the image for a larger version.
Back view of truck raft, showing spacious cargo capacity.


Closeup of the truck raft from the front, showing one of its passengers checking the engine under the hood.
Another side view of the truck raft.


This valiant and ingenious attempt at fleeing Cuba earned the original crew the proud title of camionautas (truckonauts). Unfortunately, instead of being rewarded for their cleverness, the Cubans were repatriated back to Cuba. Sadly, the pickup truck was also later sunk (reportedly through the copious application of machine-gun fire!) by the U.S. Coast Guard.

Here are links to some news stories and notable websites mentioning the original Cuban truck raft.

•Havana Journal - Cubans found at sea on pickup truck converted to motor raft
•CubaNet - Coast Guard sends back Cubans who tried to sail to U.S. in a truck
•CNN.com - Cruisin' Cubans found at sea on '51 Chevy
•St. Petersburg Times - Cuban truck sank to deter copycats
•cellar Image of the Day - 1951 Chevy Truck-Raft
•Balloon Juice - America or Bust!
Taking the Buick Out for a Spin
In early February of 2004, three of the original truckonauts made a second attempt to reach Florida. Their new, more sophisticated vessel, with a passenger complement of eleven, was crafted from a 1959 Buick: the interior was welded to be watertight, the prow of a boat was attached to the front of the car, and, amazingly, the car was fully functional and still had its tires. Their audacious plan was to reach landfall in Florida, discard the boat parts, and drive to a relative's home in Lake Worth, FL.


The 1959 Buick converted car-boat


There's something about this second attempt that just makes me smile. I guess it warms my soul to think that if you're going to make a desperate seaward journey to flee your homeland, you can still do it in style, and with your hearts full of hope.

Here are links to some news stories and notable websites mentioning the second truckonaut attempt at reaching U.S. shores:

•canf.org - Cubans trade in pickup for Buick on trip to U.S.
•CNN.com - Cubans try floating vintage car to Florida
•Miami Herald - Cubans' Buick pulled over at sea (free registration required)
This particular ocean-crossing had a happier result for its intrepid passengers. After a lengthy stay at Guantanamo (during which master mechanic and original truckonaut Luis Grass, who created the original truck raft in 2003, reportedly longingly eyed various military trucks as potential conversions), a group of 20 Cuban migrants, including Grass and his family, was granted passage to relative freedom in Costa Rica.

•CNN.com - Cuban car-boat family to stay in Florida -- for now
•Cuban News - Cuban family celebrates U.S. move to send "Buick family" to Gitmo
•Miami Herald - Cuban 'truckonaut,' family call Costa Rica home (free registration required)
Update! As of March of 2005, an even happier ending may be in store for Luis Grass, his wife Isora, and their 5-year-old son Angel Luis, as they finally entered the United States—by land! Their incredible 24 day journey from Costa Rica took them through six countries and involved trekking through jungles, hitchhiking, sleeping outdoors, and eventually sneaking through the Mexico-U.S. border from Matamoros, Mexico. Here's a website with the full story:

•Movimiento Democracia - Family makes epic journey to America
Let's all raise a mojito to honor Luis Grass and his family for their persistence, bravery, mechanical aptitude, and sheer chutzpah. ¡Bravo!

Taxi, Please!
Not to be outdone, Rafael Diaz Reyes, another of the original truckonauts, made another attempt at U.S. landfall on June 8, 2005. His craft, a converted 1949 Mercury station wagon, appears to follow the design of the second-attempt 1959 Buick car boat. It carried 13 people and was stopped at the usual area just off Key West. The Mercury was apparently originally a taxi. Driver! To Florida, and hurry!


Reuters video photo of Mercury taxi boat
Miami NBC6 video grab showing taxi boat getting pulled over by the U.S. Coast Guard


Here are links to some news stories and notable websites mentioning this most recent Cuban taxi-turned-boat.

•South Florida Sun-Sentinel - Water taxi carrying 13 Cubans intercepted off Key West (includes video footage!)
•Reuters - U.S. finds Cubans fleeing in amphibious 49 Mercury
•Miami Herald - Migrants' 'taxicab' boat stopped at sea (free registration required)
The fate of this most recent group of truckonauts is at this point uncertain. Their families are calling on the U.S. to provide them political asylum.



Please e-mail any suggestions, corrections, or pointers to additional information and photographs to Andrew Ho (webmaster@floatingcubans.com).

Disclaimers: Border protection and immigration policy are complicated issues; this page just recognizes the spirit of the truckonauts who took brave and clever steps to take matters in their own hands. It is not the author's intention to violate any copyrights. Please contact me if there are issues with images or quotes on this page.
Posted By: stevefisherkeller

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/28/09 10:09 PM

I know it's serious but know the risk, decide yes or no, and then don't whine about the results of your decision. I remember a Cuban sailing in to Miami a few years ago on a wind surfer he stole from one of the Cuban resorts where he was in charge of the rentals. I would hope modern cats with spinakers prepared for the race with the required equipment and experienced crew could attempt the distance with areasonable amount of risk.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/28/09 10:32 PM

Let me help Steve with some images missing from his post
(http://floatingcubans.com/)

The Original Cuban Truck Raft
[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]



The 1959 Buick converted car-boat

[Linked Image]

Taxi, Please!
[Linked Image]


Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/29/09 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by andrewscott

The Original Cuban Truck Raft
[Linked Image]


Like I said in a previous post: It could be a milk run.

Everyone I know that might do this race is very capable and fast. I think to be in that league and NOT do it would be regretful.

I know folks that were in the Fastnet race that year and those are lifetime memories that are part of their legacy. I have done stupid and daring things in my life that I would probably do again, just for the memories. It is always sad when someone is lost in any thrill sport. We get safer all the time with experience and technology.

It is no different than the Worrell races, the Tybee, the Everglades Challenge, the Fastnet, the Trans-Pac. All have inherent risks and they are not for the unprepared. It would be a sad day IMO when we can no longer do these things because someone thinks it is a bad idea.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/29/09 04:06 PM

And I think that people who have successfully attempted those events would be qualified to participate in something like this.

Those that have a boat but have never done anything besides beach cruising or triangle races may not fully anticipate what they are getting into. That's where the safety officer/committee should advise the applicant that they should pair up with a more experienced crew member (or consider building their experience resume and try next year)
Posted By: bvining

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/29/09 07:09 PM

I've "registered" for this race, and it sounded like fun at first, but after reading all the posts, I've got a long list of questions.
Questions/Concerns that I have:
1. What boats are allowed to enter? (Besides the broad 18-22ft) statement.
Personally, I think this should be limited to a few classes of boats that can be 1. righted by a two man crew, and 2. Are roughly the same speed. Boats that can’t be self righted should NOT be allowed, period. And boats of the same general speed will stay closer together and can potentially aid each other in the event of an emergency, (ie someone gets separated from their boat, etc).
2. What is the minimum experience required to enter?
3. Will there be Chase boats?
4. What are the safety requirements?
5. What about dry gear for the days in Cuba? Can we ship dry clothes or do you need to pack everything on board? Can we send dry clothes in advance?
6. What are the legal/political/personal implications to going to Cuba? Would this affect your standing in the US with the homeland security department? Will you get a black mark on your passport? Will you get put on watch lists domestically?
7. What’s the weather like in November? Whats the seastate? Will they postpone if the weather is nasty? Or is this like the Tybee, you have to go or be penalized?
8. Where are we staying in Cuba? How will we get around? What if we don’t speak Spanish?
9. Why November? Is that the best time of the year to do this? Is there a better time of year?


Posted By: Mary

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/29/09 09:42 PM

It all begs the question of "Why?"

Why sail to Cuba, which causes all sorts of political and potentially dangerous problems (that might involve guns), when you could just do a race across to the Bahamas instead?
Posted By: pgp

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/29/09 09:53 PM

Is there a difference?
Posted By: PTP

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/29/09 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Mary
It all begs the question of "Why?"

Why sail to Cuba, which causes all sorts of political and potentially dangerous problems (that might involve guns), when you could just do a race across to the Bahamas instead?

thats about as good of reality check as I have seen on here in a while
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/29/09 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Mary
It all begs the question of "Why?"

Why sail to Cuba, which causes all sorts of political and potentially dangerous problems (that might involve guns), when you could just do a race across to the Bahamas instead?


isn't the answer also in the question? adventure, excitement, risk, reward, going where your not allowed, danger, etc
Posted By: Mary

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/29/09 11:39 PM

Quote
isn't the answer also in the question? adventure, excitement, risk, reward, going where your not allowed, danger, etc

Okay, sure. That might cut the fleet down a bit.
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/29/09 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by andrewscott
It all begs the question of "Why?"

isn't the answer also in the question? adventure, excitement, risk, reward, going where your not allowed, danger, etc


Why do anything then?

Why climb a mountain, go to the moon, jump 20 school buses, eat 75 hot dogs, mess with snakes...need I go on?

Just do it as safely and responsibly as possible.
Posted By: Mary

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/30/09 12:19 AM

Jack,
Somehow you got two different people's quotes combined into one quote, which is very confusing.

But in answer to your question about why do anything? I'm just saying,it is possible to cross the Gulf Stream and go to Mexico or to the Bahamas without ending up in jail. It's not like going to Cuba is some some major sailing accomplishment. It is more of a political accomplishment (if you can get permission), and a political statement if you do it without permission.
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/30/09 12:33 AM

Would there be harbor or beach access for an invited Farrier/Corsair trimaran Fleet that could start, say, three or four hours ahead of the catamaran fleet?

I remember that one year Jim Oliver and the crew aboard a boat, I believe was called RedLegs, during the Ft. Lauderdale to Key West Race, plucked Chris Christensen off his 5.2 at night. They rounded up under the chute, and there was Chris, strapped to his boat. He had duck - taped the damage to the bridle attachment failure in the bow and was asking them to help him right his boat so he could continue.

...One of the most amazing sailing stories of catamarans in the Gulf Stream I have ever heard - regarding safety at sea.

If I have fudged any of the general details, Please correct.

If you feel having a squadron of Tris within radio intercept at midway would help protect the sailors, fit in with the cultural exchange project with kids, and earn bonus points with Homeland Security, Customs, the USCG, and Cuban authorities then let's hear your thoughts.

Thanking You in Advance,
Bert Rice
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/30/09 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Mary
Jack,
Somehow you got two different people's quotes combined into one quote, which is very confusing.


I know. I was trying to conserve space.

You are absolutely right about the political and legal possibilities. I am assuming (and you know what happens with that) the organizers have a solid plan in place as we did back in 1979 and 1980.

I wouldn't touch it without a lot of questions being answered with respect to those issues.

My only point is that Cuba has always had a special relationship with Americans and there is a unique lure to it that the Bahamas do not have.
Posted By: cyberspeed

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/30/09 03:31 AM

The reason why you have not heard a lot about it is because they have not received the official go ahead yet. As soon as they get the official go ahead, you will see everything ramp up fairly quickly.
Posted By: bvining

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/30/09 02:54 PM

Quote
It all begs the question of "Why?"


How many people do you know that have been to Cuba? For me the attraction is less about the sailing race and more about experiencing the culture of a place that very few people in the US have ever seen. Once Cuba becomes an approved travel destination for US travelors, much of the Cuban culture will be changed forever, it will be paved over by big US hotel chains and developers. I'd like to see Cuba before that happens.

Add in a relatively short distance race (its not 500miles), and it gets even more compelling.
Posted By: Mary

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/30/09 04:25 PM

Quote
How many people do you know that have been to Cuba? For me the attraction is less about the sailing race and more about experiencing the culture of a place that very few people in the US have ever seen. Once Cuba becomes an approved travel destination for US travelors, much of the Cuban culture will be changed forever, it will be paved over by big US hotel chains and developers. I'd like to see Cuba before that happens.

If it is just about curiosity, I would much rather go there in a comfortable cruising boat and dock at Marina Hemingway for a while so I would have some time to explore.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/30/09 05:35 PM

Anyone in the US can go to Cuba. You just have to hop through Mexico or Canada on the way. People do it all the time. It's a popular vacation spot. You just can't go direct from the US.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/30/09 08:12 PM

would an american passport get you in trouble, especially if it had a cuban entry/exit stamp on it?
Posted By: ferminj

Re: That Cuban Run - 12/30/09 08:20 PM

cuban authorities do not stamp american passports for that particular reason. americans have been travelling to cuba for many years under this system
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