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latest on the America's Cup

Posted By: Jake

latest on the America's Cup - 12/30/09 03:16 PM

Latest on the America’s Cup:

Location:
The location of the event was hotly contested. The original court judgment said that SNG/Alinghi had to give GGYC/BMWO 6 months notice on the venue. Which they did when they selected RAK in the middle east. GGYC/BMWO contested with the courts that RAK was not a DoG (Deed of Gift) legal venue because it was in the northern hemisphere and the event was to take place in February (the DoG restricts racing during the winter months in the northern hemisphere or southern hemisphere). Alinghi contested that the wording of the previous ruling gave them the option of selecting “Anywhere”. The courts ruled in favor of GGYC/BMWO and put the event in Valencia, Spain (a provision also provided for in the previous ruling). SNG/Alinghi appealed and the appeals court upheld the previous ruling – so Valencia it is.

Both teams have packed up their boats an their on the way to Spain. BOR-90 (soon to be “USA”) should arrive sometime between Jan 4 and 5. We’re not really sure where Alinghi’s catamaran is at the moment or when it will arrive. It does appear that it was loaded up on a cargo ship sometime recently though.

Date:
Feb 8th is the court mandated first race date. There have been many talks with the government of Valencia and Spain about delaying the match to take place on the 12th so it falls on a weekend and extending the racing to a best of 7 race series instead of a best of 3 that the DoG stipulates (if both sides agree, they can make the racing up anyway they want…if they don’t agree, it goes back to the best of 3 provided in the DoG). They had agreement, they didn’t have agreement, they had agreement, and now it appears they don’t again so we’re back to a best of three series that starts on Feb. 8th. The Spanish government is getting a little perturbed at the lack of agreement around the event and the delays in getting the details nailed down stand a significant chance of meaning there will not be any TV coverage of the event.

Contested Details:
Constructed in Country (CiC). The DoG has a provision that the “yachts or vessels” must be Constructed in Country. Among other things, BMWO has complained to Alinghi that their sails are known to have come from the only place in the world that produces 3DL sails – the North Sails facility in Minden, Nevada. Alinghi has come back with a couple of confusing statements on the matter…first, they said that they are compliant and all their sails are “constructed” in Switzerland (sort of a chicken / egg situation here: the sails or sail panels are literally molded with specific fabric orientations in a large facility in Nevada, USA – the panels were then seamed and had fittings attached in Switzerland…does this constitute “constructed” or “assembled”?). BMWO countered with information they know that some sails from Nevada went straight to RAK (where Alinghi has been training) and never touched Swiss soil. Alinghi then countered contending that that the sails aren’t properly part of “a yacht” therefore they don’t have to be constructed in country. There are additional items that BMWO contest that were not CiC on the yacht – one item is the new longer spine/spar that Alinghi assembled to the boat while in RAK. The spine was apparently molded in Switzerland but placed on the boat in RAK. Conceivably, this puts Alinghi in a bind…if assembling the spine to the boat in RAK is not “constructing” in RAK, then assembling the sails in Switzerland isn’t “constructing” in Switzerland either…one or the other is wrong and they have a problem. Lastly, during the latest debacle where Alinghi contended that the Length on Load waterline measurement should now include rudders (that the court disallowed) they submitted an affidavit from one of their lead designers stating that all parts required to actively sail a yacht or vessel constitute a “yacht”….so their statement that sails are part of a “yacht” has problems. Also of note, as per the DoG, SNG/Alinghi doesn’t have to identify the yacht with which they will defend the cup until the first day of racing – they have also been saying that BMWO can’t possibly bring up any CiC complaints at this time because they don’t even know what boat they will be racing….which is a bit of a silly statement – as if they built their 115’ catamaran just to fake them out.

Boat Parking:
Alinghi has inserted into the NOR for the event that all boats are to park in the Darsena Harbor (America’s Cup Harbor). However, the harbor entrance is a bit curvy and there is not enough room for BOR-90, with its giant wing, to swing 360 degrees on a mooring. Entering the harbor and storing in the harbor with the wing will be potentially dangerous to people and certainly to BOR-90 should it find itself at a wrong angle and unable to orient properly (capsize). BMWO has long ago made provisions to setup their base at an unutilized industrial harbor next door to the Darsena harbor (and in walking distance)…conceivably, Alinghi is attempting to DSQ BMWO for not setting up shop in Darsena.

International Jury:
The international Jury for the event was named on Dec. 6th (the court stipulated a Dec. 4th deadline for the Jury to be inplace). Although they have been named, their contracts have not been finalized by SNG/Alinghi (does this constitute “in place”?). These contracts provide salaries and, most importantly, the indemnity “hold harmless” agreements that any judge worth a nickel would want in place before touching this situation with these power players. The Jury can help to decide many of these issues and there are several other significant issues BMWO has with the NOR that they are hoping the IJ will clear up. With Alinghi holding up the Jury, BMWO may not have a choice but to go back to the New York Court system to get Alinghi to get the Jury in place and/or some of these other issues resolved.

BMWO and Alinghi are supposed to sit down and discuss the Jury, CiC, and Parking issues soon…they’ve been firing two series of letters back and forth recently with some stiff language but trying to find a date and location to discuss. Meanwhile, Spain is impatiently tapping it’s foot hoping to make the event into a financial success.


Attached picture america_image.jpg
Posted By: flumpmaster

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/30/09 04:08 PM

Thanks for the summary Jake. You have saved me from dipping my feet in the cess pool of AC Anarchy to stay current on the cup. I look forward to a good, fair fight between the titans in February. Hopefully 7 races with a win for Alinghi!

Chris.
Posted By: Jake

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/30/09 06:23 PM

I'm certainly don't feel the same way about Alinghi winning! I find them very largely responsible for a lot of very one-sided dealing in their favor - They are responsible for the whole non-negotiating mess that all of this is in right now due to an exceptionally stubborn position and terribly lopsided (and wrong) interpretations of the Deed of Gift (that has recently started to cost them dearly). If they win again, EB will not make the mistake of choosing an illegitimate "challenger" but will find a legitimate one that will do as he wishes and let him turn the event into a seriously lopsided affair. Ellison, on the other hand, appears to have a more fair vision of the America's Cup future in continuation with the success that was had with the last version (AC32). I'm strongly cheering for GGYC/BMWO! They are the American contingent anyway and how can you go against "Mothra" the great wing of destruction!?

[Linked Image]
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/30/09 08:11 PM

I still think they should call it the "america's cup deathmatch" That will bring in the wrestling crowd (especially if you add "modified" young vixens to the broadcast booth)
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/30/09 08:53 PM

**** all the way to the starting line, and beyond..
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/31/09 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
I'm certainly don't feel the same way about Alinghi winning! I find them very largely responsible for a lot of very one-sided dealing in their favor - They are responsible for the whole non-negotiating mess that all of this is in right now due to an exceptionally stubborn position and terribly lopsided (and wrong) interpretations of the Deed of Gift (that has recently started to cost them dearly). If they win again, EB will not make the mistake of choosing an illegitimate "challenger" but will find a legitimate one that will do as he wishes and let him turn the event into a seriously lopsided affair. Ellison, on the other hand, appears to have a more fair vision of the America's Cup future in continuation with the success that was had with the last version (AC32). I'm strongly cheering for GGYC/BMWO! They are the American contingent anyway and how can you go against "Mothra" the great wing of destruction!?

[Linked Image]


Thanks for all the updates. your info turned me from completely unknowing/uninterested to very interested and excited by the boats.

From all you have posted (with opinion), i agree Alinghi seems to be very stubborn, full of legal positioning and is the root of evil, (and maybe the cause of global warming) but after the first 20 seconds of video of their catamaran, all was forgiven and i just want to see it sail (AND WIN)
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/31/09 02:32 AM

<******** letter that Alinghi publishes, they just dig that hole deeper and deeper.

Even if the boats were reversed, and truly BMWO's tri wasn't cooler than the Alinghi piece-of-****-held-together-by-strings-catamaran, I would still wish them humiliating failure in every aspect of their lives.

BOR 90:

Posted By: David Parker

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/31/09 03:20 AM

I've watched with great interest and awe the videos of these giants sailing alone in a huge open area. Unless I'm wrong, neither of these boats have ever been raced near another boat of similar size or speed. I'm really looking forward to seeing them jockeying for position on a start line. If you've watched AC monohull starts before you know the race is often decided at or even before the start during a wild dance of crazy tacks, jibes, and near misses. If they try that same monohull madness with these beasts I think we'll see regatta ending collisions before they ever start.

Let the wild rumpus start!
Posted By: flumpmaster

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/31/09 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by Undecided

I think if all you guys get about this whole fiasco is from Jake's posts (which are excellent indeed) then you really don't understand the visceral HATRED that yankee fanboys of Larry Ellison and BMWO have for Alinghi at the moment.

There, fixed it for ya...

Hop Schweiz!
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/31/09 04:43 AM

both boats are amazing, i love everything i see.. for the first time ever, i have become interested in this event and like Dave .. i can't wait to see them race, i really dont care who wins as i think all this is amazing to see..(and good for our sport in general)
Posted By: dave mosley

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/31/09 12:36 PM

DSQ them both and start over or just cancel this whole fiasco and lets sail some cats with big coolers and have a good time....no lawyers allowed, ever.
However, I cant wait to see the starting sequence either. I predict a lawyer will be the bowman just in case they need an interepretation of any of the rules!
Who are the skippers?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/31/09 12:52 PM



Without taking sides I do think the DOG itself is pretty unfair in some instances.

How can it be fair when team USA can make use of the whole USA industrial base where Switserland can make use of only what can be found between their mountains ?

At least allow the Swiss the use of the whole European industrial base/continent for their challenge.

A document such as the DOG does sort of lead to endless litigation; especially with the ego's of billionairs coming into play.

Naturally, claims that state Iran would attack the AC event at RAK is just luney tunes. Maybe one side is more to blame then the other but I don't really feel that either side is exempt from childish behavior.

So lets not lay all the blame at one side.

Personally, I feel both boats are great developments and I would like to see them race over 7 (instead of the meager 3 by DOG)

Wouter
Posted By: Jake

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/31/09 01:45 PM

If you want to see some more BMWO eye candy, click on the video below and select "HQ"...go full screen. (note: if you click on the video just after clicking play, it will open in a new window where you can make it full screen).

Posted By: Jake

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/31/09 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Wouter


Without taking sides I do think the DOG itself is pretty unfair in some instances.

How can it be fair when team USA can make use of the whole USA industrial base where Switserland can make use of only what can be found between their mountains ?

At least allow the Swiss the use of the whole European industrial base/continent for their challenge.

A document such as the DOG does sort of lead to endless litigation; especially with the ego's of billionairs coming into play.

Naturally, claims that state Iran would attack the AC event at RAK is just luney tunes. Maybe one side is more to blame then the other but I don't really feel that either side is exempt from childish behavior.

So lets not lay all the blame at one side.

Personally, I feel both boats are great developments and I would like to see them race over 7 (instead of the meager 3 by DOG)

Wouter


First - I agree, the Iran card went way overboard...but you do need to understand that Larry Ellison is Jewish and the middle east is a little less than welcoming to Jewish people. In fact, people carrying Israeli passports aren't permitted to enter the United Arab Emirates (where RAK is located). I wouldn't care to go there if I were him...heck, even having an Israeli stamp in my passport caused me a good bit of grief getting into Saudi Arabia several years ago.

However, with regards to the Deed of Gift document, it is a simple document with language that was adequate in the 1800s. It could certainly use some freshening up. However, Alinghi has made several creative interpretations that a native English speaker wouldn't (and that their legal counsel was undoubtedly trying to explain) ... this has cost them in the courts and really dragged this whole affair out. In many ways, the Deed is beautifully simple except for one revision that was made to it back in the 1980's that made an assumption (as did the creators of the deed) that nobody would ever consider shopping the event location. The Deed is actually standing up quite well in court - it's just one side of this affair keeps trying to creatively interpret several definitions within the Deed to their benefit.

As far as Switzerland's ability to build an adequate CiC vessel, understand that Switzerland, as per the DoG, should have never been permitted to challenge for the cup. The cup was intended to be up for challenge by sea fairing nations and limits challengers to those that have a regular regatta on an arm of the sea (presumably on their home waters). Switzerland has no coastline. It was only under mutual consent in AC 31 that Switzerland was allowed to compete when New Zealand gave it very little thought. Neither did the originators of the Deed intend for the venue to be shopped around the globe. The intent was for the event to always take place at the defending club's territorial waters...on the ocean. A great deal of the conundrum we are seeing now is because Bertarelli has been shopping the event around the globe (he has no choice - they have no ocean shoreline) - which really stretches the limits of the DoG and puts several items within it in conflict. Add to that that Alinghi has been trying to overreach their rights and we end up here.

Posted By: dave mosley

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/31/09 02:50 PM

If they can build a nice watch, and a nice pocket knife, then surely they can build a boat smile
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/31/09 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by flumpmaster
Originally Posted by Undecided

I think if all you guys get about this whole fiasco is from Jake's posts (which are excellent indeed) then you really don't understand the visceral HATRED that yankee fanboys of Larry Ellison and BMWO have for Alinghi at the moment.

There, fixed it for ya...

Hop Schweiz!
[Linked Image]



Chris,

You are a flamebaiter of the first degree.
Posted By: HMurphey

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 12/31/09 11:24 PM

Does anyone remember Perth Australia .... when the bomb threat was called in ... saying there was a bomb on-board the Aussie boat??? I remember watching the "Aussie coach" boat coming up and hailing the Aussie boat ... by this time they trailed Stars&Stripes and it was offered to have the race stopped to search the boat for a bomb .... and what happened??? ...... they were waved away!!!! With the words "We have started the race ... and will finish this race ....."

What has happened to our sport??? Where is the HONOR ... the SPORTSMANSHIP any more????

Sir Lipton must be rolling over in his grave

Harry Murphey
Posted By: JeffS

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/01/10 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by HMurphey


What has happened to our sport??? Where is the HONOR ... the SPORTSMANSHIP any more????

Sir Lipton must be rolling over in his grave

Harry Murphey


The honor was gone a long time ago that's how the cup was held so long by such a dishonerable club in the first place. Allan Bond only won the cup because he had learnt that it's won in the court room and took better lawyers to the race. The only difference this year is that the lawyers are going before probably during and after the race but it's worth it.
Posted By: PTP

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/01/10 01:51 AM

<******** letter that Alinghi publishes, they just dig that hole deeper and deeper.

Even if the boats were reversed, and truly BMWO's tri wasn't cooler than the Alinghi piece-of-****-held-together-by-strings-catamaran, I would still wish them humiliating failure in every aspect of their lives.

BOR 90:


that type of footage does exactly what it was designed to do... gives me the chills! among other things smile

I hope BMW kicks the living CRAP out of those guys.






(disclaimer... I know LE and EB are both probably pieces of ****... but still)
Posted By: Capt_Cardiac

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/03/10 12:18 AM

maybe its been mentioned but does anyone know what kind of speed these boats are generating? is this a 15-20-30kt race we are going to see? i know, i know it depends on the wind but does anyone have any details
Posted By: FasterDamnit

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/03/10 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by Capt_Cardiac
maybe its been mentioned but does anyone know what kind of speed these boats are generating? is this a 15-20-30kt race we are going to see? i know, i know it depends on the wind but does anyone have any details


BOR90 has hit 30's in 10-15 and possibly 40's.
Posted By: Baltic

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/03/10 12:25 PM

Does anybody know in which max. wind / wave height they are going to sail? I've heard something of 4bft / 1m which I think is difficult to believe.
Posted By: Jake

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/03/10 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Baltic
Does anybody know in which max. wind / wave height they are going to sail? I've heard something of 4bft / 1m which I think is difficult to believe.


that's another big point of contention. Alinghi released the NOR for the event several months ago that over-reaches on several other issues. One of the big ones is that the NOR places a limit of 15knots of wind and 1 meter wave heights which many feel are too low (personally, I think that 1 meter wave limit is going to be much more of a limitation than 15 knots...you'll get one meter waves offshore in 10 knots of breeze quite easily). Before BMWO came out with the wing, we believed the catamaran to have an advantage in the exceptionally light conditions...so they've attempted to limit racing to where they feel like they would win.

Conceptually, it's illegal for the defender to act on their own to place any kind of limits on racing that could delay the event. As per the Deed, the challenger specifies the first date of racing. For the defender to put limits that could reschedule that racing would be illegal. Limits can be established for the event but the challenger would have to consent to them first.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/03/10 03:31 PM

I just finished reading the article in the new Sailing World about BMWO and their new 190' wing. Wow.

The part that struck me though was that they really havn't had time to "shake it down" so to speak. What is the AC Protocol if one boat breaks something major and is unable to get it fixed right away? Does the other team wait until it's fixed or does the broken team forfit the remaining races if they cannot continue "on schedule"?

That wing is huge, did they build two of them in case one breaks? And another thing, even though BMWO is built as a trimaran, to me it looks like they will be sailing it as a cat, on one hull most of the time, since the large center hull has no rudder or daggerboard. So in reality it's like a cat too, with a big center pod. I just hope it stays in one piece until the regatta is over!
Posted By: FasterDamnit

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/03/10 05:21 PM

That article is out of date. Wing has seen quite a bit of sailing. Much of it on live SD bay video cams. Had some breakdowns, nothing major, and right back out- including over the horizon. The most amazing footage was of the tacking and gybing trials in the bay full of weekend sailors. With the wing it tacks and gybes FAST!! Accelerates like a bat out of hell, too.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/03/10 05:39 PM

I was lucky enough to attend the Ullman Winter Seminar by Morrelli and Melvin on hard wings. Although there was plenty of historical information in the presentation, they of course focused on BOR90 for much of the talk. The inside-the-tent pictures were phenomenal and it was incredibly interesting to hear Pete discuss how the wing has advanced.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/03/10 06:06 PM

OK, back to my original question, if something major breaks, worst case say they have to replace the entire wing, and they cannot make what ever the next scheduled race is, say the next day, do they "postpone" that race or does the broken team forfit that race?

Both of these boats are so new, and so huge, I expect one or both will experience some trouble during the regatta. So how will that be dealt with, time wise? Is Ernesto writing that rule too? It could come back to bite him if his boat breaks first.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/03/10 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
OK, back to my original question, if something major breaks, worst case say they have to replace the entire wing, and they cannot make what ever the next scheduled race is, say the next day, do they "postpone" that race or does the broken team forfit that race?

Both of these boats are so new, and so huge, I expect one or both will experience some trouble during the regatta. So how will that be dealt with, time wise? Is Ernesto writing that rule too? It could come back to bite him if his boat breaks first.

In more "gentlemanly" times, the opponent would likely give the other some limited time to fix the problem.

I don't think that's very likely in this situation. Once the schedule is set, the way it's probably going to work this time is you either show up on time or you forfeit that race.

There is no backup wing. There are two backup soft rigs (maybe three if they've fixed the mast they broke right before they went to the wing).
Posted By: Jake

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/03/10 11:27 PM

Boat breakage can definitely be a significant issue under the non-mutual consent DoG scenario. There are no provisions for additional delay for repair. Racing is to start on Feb. 8th for a best of three series. If a race isn't finished in 7 hours, it didn't happen. There will be one day of rest between each race day until someone wins two races. That is, unless somehow the two teams miraculous find common ground on something and consent to changing the format.

If someone breaks something - they better hope they can fix it in around 41 hours.
Posted By: TheManShed

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/05/10 05:27 AM

On with the race how cool a big cat vs a big tri! It just gives me chills watching the BMWO flying two hulls. Got to go sand the TMS-20 now!

Jake thanks for the report.
Posted By: Jake

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/05/10 01:21 PM

no problem! I enjoy keeping up with this stuff.

Apparently there was a semi-secret meeting held between the teams at the end of December where they discussed and tentatively agreed on several things - including some of the weird things in the NOR (several of which have been impacted by the most recent court rulings). BMWO has complained to SNG that none of the few things they were able to agree upon had been changed yet.

The teams are reported to get together on Jan 12th in Singapore for a meeting that will be arbitrated by David Tillett. Mr. Tillett is the chairman of the International Jury for the event (that still hasn't been ratified).

SNG/Alinghi are still pushing hard on getting GGYC/BMWO to moor inside the Valencia Darsena (America's Cup Harbor). GGYC/BMWO are resisting as there is not enough room to moor their boat with the wing up and allow it to swing 360 degrees. SNG/Alinghi has also continued to slowly turn up the volume on their complaint that the wing isn't really a sail (the deed specifies the boats to be "propelled by sails only"). I believe that SNG/Alinghi is pushing the mooring issue to get GGYC/BMWO to say something about the difference between a soft sail and a wing sail that they can use against them.

The Sailing Instructions are due out of SNG/Alinghi on Jan 8th. It's possible we will see an amended NOR at that time too. You can expect Jan. 10th to see a lot of communication between the teams again as I anticipate several new issues to arise with the SI's and a continuation of issues with the NOR.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/05/10 04:45 PM

Quote
SNG/Alinghi are still pushing hard on getting GGYC/BMWO to moor inside the Valencia Darsena (America's Cup Harbor). GGYC/BMWO are resisting as there is not enough room to moor their boat with the wing up and allow it to swing 360 degrees. SNG/Alinghi has also continued to slowly turn up the volume on their complaint that the wing isn't really a sail (the deed specifies the boats to be "propelled by sails only"). I believe that SNG/Alinghi is pushing the mooring issue to get GGYC/BMWO to say something about the difference between a soft sail and a wing sail that they can use against them.


SNG is going to have a real hard time claiming that a wing isn't a sail despite anything that BMWO says or doesn't say:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Luiz

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/05/10 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided

SNG is going to have a real hard time claiming that a wing isn't a sail despite anything that BMWO says or doesn't say:
[Linked Image]


Hardly an issue. Sail or not sail, nothing prohibits wings (or any appendages) in the DoG.
Posted By: Jake

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/05/10 09:06 PM

While I firmly believe the wing is easily defined as a sail, the DoG does say specifically "propelled by sails only". So if the wing is NOT a sail, it wouldn't be Deed Legal. It would be different if the Deed specifies propelled by wind only - but it does not.

The challenge also specifies a sloop rig...so the wing has to meet that requirement for the challenge to be valid as well. They can string headsails up and have done so testing in San Diego.
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/05/10 09:39 PM

Wouldn't Connor's use of a wing set a precedent?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/05/10 09:41 PM

It would. But Alinghi managed to do something legally that blows away all meaning of the word "precedent" when it comes to legal findings concerning the deed of gift.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/05/10 10:40 PM

hey, lets save all the bad talk about the "precedent" for the drill baby thread! (kiddin)
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/05/10 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
It would. But Alinghi managed to do something legally that blows away all meaning of the word "precedent" when it comes to legal findings concerning the deed of gift.

Everything will be ok.
Just relax, sit down, breath calmly, get some tea, ...and have a Toblerone! grin
Posted By: Jake

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/06/10 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by hobie1616
Wouldn't Connor's use of a wing set a precedent?


Well...Yes and no. It wasn't tested legally in court at that time so there could still be a debate whether or not a wing truly constitutes a "sail". Having it happen once before makes the proverbial bat a little bigger but it doesn't automatically hit a home run. In other words, if SDYC cheated in 1988 and got away with using the wing, it doesn't make it legal forever into the future. It does, however, offer some intrinsic evidence that rigid wings are commonly used as sails in extremely similar scenarios.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying I think SDYC cheated - In fact, I believe the rigid wing sail to be a true "sail" that will stand up to a court or international jury test if it goes that far.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/06/10 03:34 PM

Don't they call gliders "sailplanes"? They have fixed wings, don't they?
Posted By: ncik

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 03:56 AM

<******** letter that Alinghi publishes, they just dig that hole deeper and deeper.

Even if the boats were reversed, and truly BMWO's tri wasn't cooler than the Alinghi piece-of-****-held-together-by-strings-catamaran, I would still wish them humiliating failure in every aspect of their lives.


That's a lot of hatred you have brewing there.

Please don't lump me into your hate for Alinghi. Larry has only himself to blame for promoting a non-compliant challenger in Alinghi so many years ago. Alinghi can only farm out the host venue, there is no other option. Alinghi have done the only things they can do, find a venue, write some rules.

The defender has no DoG compliant home venue - FACT
The challenger built a boat before there were any rules and haven't supplied the design to the defender so it can write rules to suit - FACT

Larry is trying to gain as much advantage as possible, Ernesto is trying to gain as much advantage as possible. This is what equally arrogant billionaires do. Unfortunately because SNG was a non-compliant challenger from the very beginning, which was allowed by mutual consent, it has created this very bizarre situation that Alinghi find themselves in.

And if you think that Larry doesn't have his own "evil" plans for the AC, you haven't been keeping up. He has clearly stated a very similar setup to Ernesto should he win.
Posted By: ncik

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 04:12 AM

Building a new wing outside of the US will not be allowed under CiC...that is very clear. If sail construction or installing a freakin' bow sprit are points of contention, then building and installing a whole mast/wing combo is definitely not allowed.

Larry and Ernesto have been so unwilling to negotiate anything that time for repairs will not be allowed. The races will go on.
Posted By: brucat

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 05:42 PM

Yes, Alinghi tried to have a sock-puppet challenger that they controlled, and the remaining challengers were unhappy. But, I would be willing to bet that there are a whole lot of "sailing fans" worldwide, to say nothing of the AC-caliber sailors, who are MUCH more unhappy with BMWO right now, since the whole event is off-kilter and they have to sit out an entire cycle.

Larry may be right on principle, but that won't make him popular, regardless of any plans beyond this cycle.

Mike
Posted By: Chris9

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 05:58 PM

Were there such times? Keelhauled: Unsportsmanlike Conduct and the America's Cup (Hardcover; Doug Riggs (Author)
Posted By: Jake

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Yes, Alinghi tried to have a sock-puppet challenger that they controlled, and the remaining challengers were unhappy. But, I would be willing to bet that there are a whole lot of "sailing fans" worldwide, to say nothing of the AC-caliber sailors, who are MUCH more unhappy with BMWO right now, since the whole event is off-kilter and they have to sit out an entire cycle.

Larry may be right on principle, but that won't make him popular, regardless of any plans beyond this cycle.

Mike


Seriously? You think this is Larry's fault? Larry's saving the cup for an egomaniac lead sailing team that sought to turn the whole event into their own profit center (illegal for a charitable trust) and fix the rules so they could never lose.

I find it hard to believe that the majority of the sailing world is in favor of Alinghi. Though I would agree that nobody wants it to be like it is, nearly all of the traditional big America's Cup players side with BMWO. The only one I heard speak out publicly negatively about BMWO was Shashaloosha (sorry for murdering their name....no time to look up).

Time will tell if Larry brings the cup back to a traditional sense moreso than Bertarelli. I obviously don't know for sure but I do hope he will.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 06:59 PM

What is the basis for "the majority of the sailing world is in favor of Alinghi"? I have no idea..
I am sick and tired of Ernestos games, but I find Larry to be of the same kind. I just want to see those two beast race.
Posted By: brucat

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 08:01 PM

Jake, I'd say that they are both at fault.

Obviously, other challengers said that they were unhappy with the protocol, but at least at that point, it was a protocol that allowed them to compete. You can't possibly think Larry has endeared himself with any of the professional sailors that have been forced to seek employment elsewhere, to say nothing of the investments of the team owners.

Of course, it's also a falure of Ernesto to come to the table to negotiate after the DoG challenge was made. Anyne who reads that original doc can see that BMWO never intended for it to go this far, they always left the door open to negotiate something more traditional. Once Ernesto called their bluff, they had to move forward with the tri.

The only people who "win" are multihull fans, not that there's anything wrong with that...

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 08:02 PM

Its recently been disclosed that the press over in Europe, has by many accounts, and unsurprisingly been pretty rose-colored towards Alinghi.

All I can say is that when the NYSC slaps you down something like 6 times in a row for shenanigans pulled - then there should really be no debate on who the good guy is.

Plus LE has stated that he wants to put the cup in a third party management role instead of the way it is now - so all this mess can be avoided.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 08:14 PM

as a distant spectator (and lover of cats) i think its great! i have never seen any cats or tri's like this.. its exciting and i can't wait to see it in action.

I could personally care less who owns what boat.. who is corrupt.. who is manipulating.. who is a bad sport.. and who is using the legal system as a tool (welcome to the litigious world)...

i doubt i would care (or watch) at all if it was 2 mono's.

If the saying is true, all press is good press.. then maybe in the long run.. this will all turn out good! maybe it will bring more interest to Cat sailing.. and who knows.... maybe you guys can get more people to your races because of it...

i also dont care who wins.. (except my love of cats makes me lean toward the cat). go ahead.. form your mob... get your rope..i will wear a turtleneck to make it easier for you...

and my last point.. this thread is the best thread on this forum now.. and its certainly more fun to watch you guys take it personally and get all excited than to read more about the US govt .. (which i only do out of pure boredom)
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 08:56 PM

Latest news, the Jury has been put in place officially. Finally we can get some of these stupid nit picky things out of the way.

also, new BMWO video hotness: (watch full screen)
Posted By: Jake

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 08:57 PM

true that!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 09:06 PM

awesome!
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 09:15 PM

The thing is that both of these guys will not be sad to dump these boats after the last race in 6 weeks time and go back to racing on 15knot s...boxes. The whole multihull thing was just a DOG ploy to piss each other off.
What's going to happen to the boats?

[It will actually be less than 6 weeks because the nature of multihulls means that one will be faster than the other and it will only take 4 races to wrap the whole saga up]
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Its recently been disclosed that the press over in Europe, has by many accounts, and unsurprisingly been pretty rose-colored towards Alinghi.


I have not noticed, and I have not heard about any such survey. Got a link to the survey?
Why it should be unsurprising if it was so is beyound me. Sounds like somebody are playing "us and them" games.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 10:12 PM

Its unsurprising because over here, we get Pro-BMWO stuff. Its only natural to root for the home team.

There's a thread on SA about it if you really care. I didn't mean to insinuate something sinister is going on.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/07/10 10:30 PM

Well, europe is pretty diversified. I actually cheer on BMW-O becouse the boat is amazing, they have had a good internet presence, and I dont like how Ernesto have handled the AC. I have not caught any strong bias for Alinghi in the sailing press here. Perhaps in other countries or non-english sections of Europe. Oh well..
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/08/10 10:33 AM

Do you guys in the US feel more of a connection with Bolivia for example than the UK or Italy?
Europe is only a loose group of countries and I personally don't feel a strong connection with most of them (I don't even know them all!).
I was in Spain last week and you cant even talk to anyone because no-one speaks english, so much for a united europe!

Anyway, for business I read a lot of tech news and whenever LE's name pops up it is always to do with something negative.
I also dont believe you get to be the 4th richest man alive because you have such a great sense of ethics and fairplay.

I do think that Alinghi was treated too harshly over RAK.
Right now it is storming and snowing around Valencia.

One American sportsman I really like though is Robby Gordon doing the Dakar in Chile/Argentina right now, great guy!
I really hope he makes the podium this time.
Posted By: pepin

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/08/10 11:04 AM

I find the regular AC matches completely boring. Ugly monohulls fighting according to impenetrable rules is as interesting as watching paint dry.

At least for this AC we have some excitement, impressive boats of amazing size, and hopefully some spectacle when one of those boat will spectacularly fail/capsize/sink during the first race smile

Who wins is completely irrelevant, both team owners are assholes with monster egos and no sense of sportsmanship anyway.
Posted By: Baltic

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/08/10 11:08 AM

I certainly feel closer to the people in at least 'core'-Europe, than to any others in the world. Although we all speak different languages, the thinking and the values are pretty alike and both of us will experience the day where english will become the official language in the EU.
I think it is our major advantage that we are so different, this ensures devolopment and progress. Although, I have to confess, if Europe needs the influence of countries like Romania, Bulgaria or even Turkey I'm not really sure of ...
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/08/10 01:22 PM

Quote
Do you guys in the US feel more of a connection with Bolivia for example than the UK or Italy?


No but I'll cheer for the Canuckistans over those two anyday. Heck I even like the Mexicans in the 34th America's Cup!
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/08/10 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Baltic
I certainly feel closer to the people in at least 'core'-Europe, than to any others in the world.


We (core-Europe) are very similar in some areas but wildly different in others. Then you have people in e.g. Romania that have the exact same set of values as yourself. Europe is not as tied together in culture, traditions and values as e.g. the USA.

PS: Romania and Bulgaria are part of Europe. I think you ment to write "EU" which is a different entity than Europe.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/08/10 01:57 PM

I sent Rolf a PM as i wanted to respond, but not here as i didnt want to turn this into a political debate on this thread
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/08/10 02:37 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/08/10 02:41 PM

lol
Posted By: Luiz

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/08/10 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided

...I even like the Mexicans in the 34th America's Cup!


But not Brazilians: they could actually win. Money is the problem.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/08/10 07:46 PM

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here Luiz.

I love Brazilians.

You should too.
Posted By: Jalani

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/08/10 08:03 PM

Yep, thumbs up for Brazilians from me too!!! smile blush
Posted By: ACE11

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/09/10 01:26 AM

All this nationalistic stuff is a bit irrelevant isn't it? The boats seem to be sailing for their nominated countries in name only. I don't know the exact rules but it seems the projects are made up of people and construction elements from many different countries. BMW/O for example has the sailing coach, tactician and skipper from Australia and many other people from other countries.
To me it seems to be mainly an ego/money thing for the owners with the sailing being of minor importance.
All this hoo ha for three races! The sailors are pretty disappointed to work for so long for such a small regatta.
Anyway, the technology and sheer speed are breathtaking. Let's hope they somehow agree to do more races.

John Dowling
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/09/10 01:39 AM

Two comments I would like to make. I think that even within the USA we find some of the same closeness and distances as one would experience/feel in Europe between countries.

I would like to see an America's Cup format where the racers and production of the boats were specific to the country who's flag they carry. When I say racers, I mean only the people on the boat during the race. Coaches, builders, managers etc. could be of any country of orgin to promote countries like China and others to participate and have a chance. I think materials can come from anycountry but construction should take place in the country of orgin. As for the boats I like the current run what you brung format and lets see who wins.
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/09/10 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by ACE11
The sailors are pretty disappointed to work for so long for such a small regatta.

Are you kidding?!?! Imagine what it's like to take a concept, build the boat (either one), and sail it almost every day. The journey is the reward.
Posted By: ACE11

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/09/10 03:17 AM

I didn't imagine this! Of course they feel privileged to be part of such a project. But having spoken to some recently, as sailors they feel a little more sailing in hot competition against Alinghi would add to the event. The egos and money driving all this seem to place more emphasis on things other than the sailing.
Posted By: Baltic

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/09/10 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH

I would like to see an America's Cup format where the racers and production of the boats were specific to the country who's flag they carry.


I disagree. In which area could a country like Switzerland compete with the United States? Possibly in manufacturing mechanical watches or mountain area (if so ...), but I guess that's it. The AC is a competition of teams with endless resources of money, I wouldn't care if they are all from the same country or if there would be more than just two teams. But I agree, it's a shame that all this effort is taken for just 3 races - this is how much money in total per race?
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/09/10 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
The thing is that both of these guys will not be sad to dump these boats after the last race in 6 weeks time and go back to racing on 15knot s...boxes. The whole multihull thing was just a DOG ploy to piss each other off.
What's going to happen to the boats?

[It will actually be less than 6 weeks because the nature of multihulls means that one will be faster than the other and it will only take 4 races to wrap the whole saga up]


I have it on reliable information that DoGzilla/BOR will be taken on a world tour and used in speed trials and such, regardless of the outcome of the 3-race (hopefully 2)series. BTW, part of the warped strategy is to end the race during starting manouvers. DoG is much more agile during that period leaving Alinghi vulnerable to getting caught in a trap.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/09/10 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Baltic
Originally Posted by JACKFLASH

I would like to see an America's Cup format where the racers and production of the boats were specific to the country who's flag they carry.


I disagree. In which area could a country like Switzerland compete with the United States? Possibly in manufacturing mechanical watches or mountain area (if so ...), but I guess that's it. The AC is a competition of teams with endless resources of money, I wouldn't care if they are all from the same country or if there would be more than just two teams. But I agree, it's a shame that all this effort is taken for just 3 races - this is how much money in total per race?


I think you missed my point. I feel that those on the boat during the regatta should be nationals from the country whoms flag the boat flies. The owner, coaches, trainers, designers, builders or any other people can be from anywhere. As for building I was refering only to the construct location, not the builders or the source of the raw materials.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/10/10 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH

I think you missed my point. I feel that those on the boat during the regatta should be nationals from the country whoms flag the boat flies. The owner, coaches, trainers, designers, builders or any other people can be from anywhere. As for building I was referring only to the construct location, not the builders or the source of the raw materials.

Well I hope for the US that rule wont come into effect because you would lose the best people on the boat,
the Dutch bowmen Simeon Tienpont and the wing-trimmer Dirk "Cheese" de Ridder. grin

A small country like Holland will never have an AC team and therefore crew could never get experience at that level no matter how talented they are.
Even a country like the US would struggle here, I believe there is only one US crewmember on the BMWO team? (Kostecki).
And NZ has so many rockstars, no boat would be big enough to fit all their egos.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/10/10 02:34 PM

Hmmm. Sort of like rooting for hockey teams -- "My Canadians are better than your Canadians!" And my team is the Florida Panthers.., although we may actually have ice today.
Rick
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/11/10 03:14 AM

The Americas Cup was originally intended to be a contest between nations, now it is a contest between lawyers. At least we still have the Olympics for a little nation versus nation action. But I suppose we should eliminate the nationality rules there too. After all how is a small nation like Jamaica supposed to be competitive in any of the winter events since they probably have never seen snow. Seems that it would only be fair that they are allowed to hire some folks from another country so that they have a chance. Of course you can't be PRO in compete in the Olympics either. Now there's a concept.
Yes it is true their are a lot of great, and possibly the greatest sailors in New Zealand and Australia, but I don't think that means the US, or anyone else for that matter couldn't be competitive if a nationality clause existed. I often felt that reason the US couldn't bring the cup back was not because of the caliber of the sailors, but instead because four or five US teams would split up the talent. How often has New Zealand or Australia had more than one team challenging for the cup? There were US teams challenging for the cup even when a US team was defending. But that is another topic. Okay, flame suit activated, fire away.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/11/10 07:08 PM

This is insane! How awesome is this:
http://www.alinghi.com/en/news/news/index.php?idIndex=227&idContent=21252
[Linked Image]
Posted By: cyberspeed

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/11/10 07:52 PM

They have a few of boat/planes where I live but not that slick. They are rubber boats. The local beach service was training/renting/selling them. No license is required.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/11/10 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
This is insane! How awesome is this:


Perhaps that is the way Alinghi plans to deal with the wing of BMWO grin (and that was a joke)
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/13/10 09:41 AM

Latest update of the AC: More bullsh1t.


You're welcome.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: latest on the America's Cup - 01/13/10 03:02 PM

Welcome to what? Nothing there??
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