America's Cup Countdown

Weather in Valencia is drizzly and cold (8 C). Alinghi is being measured this morning - public access inside the inner America's Cup Harbor (where Alinghi is parked) is restricted.

So far we’ve seen a couple different iterations of rear fairings that were all structured from a carbon skeleton skinned with a lightweight fabric. For a week now, USA-17 has had her rear beam fairings removed and a tarp over the center of the rear beam and stern of the main hull and there’s been all sorts of speculation about what that tarp is covering. I heard a rumor this morning that it could be a mechanical system that will control the angle of the aero-fairings on the rear beam so they can be used like ailerons on an airplane to increase or decrease righting moment! Before you laugh yourself out of your chair, remember that these boats are capable of (at least) 40 knots of speed over water in 15 knots of wind. That’s nearly 55 knots of wind across the deck of the boat. It is possible to reap some lift off a set of 6’ “ailerons”.

It’s still anyone’s guess about what’s under that tarp. It could be the text “if you can read this, you’re screwed Alinghi” for all we know.

thanks Jake, question for ya, that skipper wheel house (or wheel area).. does it move or does the skipper have to run over to another wheel station?

Andrew, if you look closely in the middle picture above, you will see the Skipper is standing on a springboard. During the tack, as the boat passes head to wind, he "Jumps" on the board and is launched to the other side. I think he's also wearing a harness and a sort of trap wire arrangement, just in case he doesn't make it on the first jump...

Under the tarp is a net, to catch him should the trap wire break.

I'm sure they have two helmsmen, or at least somebody to take over until the actual driver gets there.

you would think with the money they got, they would just create a clone to handle the other wheel when they tack, or invent the tele-porter.. they are slacking!

Actually Jimmy runs from one side of the boat to the other on top of the rear beam while one of the crew holds the wheel steady. It actually takes a bit of acrobatics to not fall off the damn thing.

Tell "Jimmy" I said Hi.

yes...we saw a sequence of them tacking from onboard about 6 months ago (that video is long gone though). Spithill starts the turn and gets the boat just barely on the new tack...while a crewmember crawls back to the rear beam where he leans back in a prone position. When Spithill is ready, the crewmember holds the wheel steady while Spithill steps up onto the rear beam and walks at a face pace over to the opposite helming station. Once he has the new wheel, the crewmember releases and shuffles back to the net near the center. The boat is really pretty steady through it all - but there is nothing to hang onto while spithill walks over.

We have seen them making tight maneuvering drills where he just stays on the leeward side and drives from there if it's going to be a short run. If they do get into some manuevers on the start line you can expect to see him drive from the low side.

GREAT promo video now available at the following link...crank it up - go full screen - get pumped.

http://www.americascup.com/en/multimedia/video/index.php?idIndex=62

I do not think it is laughable.

Consider a Cessna 150:
about 30 foot wing span
About 5 foot cord
about 1000 lbs
with a take of speed of 55 knots

I think those would be acceptable ailerons for this boat. I hope they are. I would love to see the effect.

Later,
Dan

The New York Court system assigned a hearing date for Feb. 25 as to the legality of Alinghi's sails that were manufactured in the North Sails facility in Minden, NV. The Deed of Gift has a "constructed in country" clause for both yachts and BMWO argues that Alinghi's sails do not conform to this clause and are therefore illegal. BMWO attempted to have this heard by the courts prior to the event but the courts told them to "go race...then we'll talk about it".

If Alinghi wins, they'll still have to answer for this if they do use the North Sails manufactured in Minden, NV (they have already claimed clearly that they intend to do so). It could easily cost them the cup after the fact.

Ghehe, maybe they need some footstraps


Flying to VLC Saturday morning...

Tony, now I'm really jealous! I had started to plan a vacation around it but quit when I started to lose confidence that racing would happen on Feb. 8th during some of the really heated court exchanges.

Something just dawned on me...and it could be crazy. Suppose you were getting ready to install an "aileron" system on the boat at the last minute (which could help some when on the 15 mile death reach on day 2). How would you test the validity of that system? How about putting four guys (700lbs) at the back of the boat to see how much that amount of downforce will affect the boat?

We know BMWO has ballast tanks - they could easily pump water back there instead of people...this is all so perplexing and interesting.

Why do you think Timbo's been out of jets this whole year long? He's been in the simulator teaching BMW how to "fly" with those things...

"...just a little less Up trim if you please..."

Damn showoffs.

I didn't follow this AC stuff in detail, but it could happen. It's time to put the cards on the table (and some fuel in the flames)

Alinghi will win.

What's your bet?

Cheers,

Klaus

BMWO in two straight.

A sixpack of Bud to your best Bavarian Hopped ale!

That's fair, right??

AUS/NZL/NED (BMW/O) - 2
NZL (Alinghi) - 1

Corona for me thanks.

BMW ORACLE

Doug

I'm not a betting man...not with cash anyway...but most of the gambling sites are favoring Alinghi (I suppose these are just for on the water results)

Bet 365
Alinghi - 1/2
BOR 6/4

William Hill
Alinghi 4/5
BOR 10/1

bwin.com
Alinghi 1.65
BOR 2.10

Unibet
Alinghi 1.60
BOR 2.20

uuuugghh... According to the front page of Sailing Anarchy this morning, the wind limit / decision to start or stop racing doesn't fall to the PRO as we had thought. It falls to the SNG (Alinghi's club) "racing committee" of which the PRO, Harold Bennett, only has one vote. Also on the committee, is the antagonistic mouth piece for SNG, Fred Meyer who undoubtedly had a strong hand in writing in the (since deemed illegal) limits into the original NOR. Fred apparently showed up the first day wearing an Alinghi jacket and Harold made him turn it inside out so as to not broadcast it's colors and allegiance. With light air racing likely benefiting Alinghi's design, and a world of reasons a race committee can cancel a race, I've got a bad feeling about this.

It now looks like the tarp is just covering some new fangled electronics...not sure what exactly but we have identified a camera poking out above it.

interesting read:

http://www.yachtingworld.com/performance-world/news/441370/america-s-cup-pressure-building

The fact that Fred Meyer has any kind of say-so in whether or not to race makes me frigid. I was 100% sure that BMWO was going to win once the IJ told them that no wind limits would be imposed by the NOR but now that its up to the RC/PRO I'm not so sure.

Its going to be a snafu if its blowing 8 knots and the SNG committee says "sorry can't race". A

haha, frigid

Trey said you were easy.

Well, that may be true. You just never asked big boy.

I'm going to be very surprised if at least one racing official doesn't walk off the event in anger....like what almost happened in AC32 over a very controversial "halyard gate" protest committee ruling in favor of Alinghi that went 3/2 and the 2 judges in favor of penalizing Alinghi were outraged (and reasonably so).

awesome - judges emoragequitting.

the holding club has always made the challenger jump through hoops.. The NYYC was superb in doing this..

RC talking about the wing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO7plJLj-T8&feature=channel

NYYC was a bit forceful on some issues back in the day...but just because someone else did it doesn't make it any less wrong. It was never, ever done to this degree.

I love how everyone holds that up like we're all members of the NYYC and had something to do with that.

you're not?? I just mailed my renewal back off last week.

We booted your horse lovin' keister. No NYYC for you.

Under the canvas? "The Man Shed" banner.

The more I learned about the court dealings the more I feel the wish for some high ranking racing official to act like a normal parent who pulls tow kids apart and tells them very forcefully.

"I don't care WHO started ! Now I'm in charge and we are going to do things my way because you two obviously can't work out things for yourself."

Rule number 1

-1- We're racing in anything that will see you guys do the course under 6 hours with winds up to 25 knots without a limit to swell height. This is the bloody Mediterranean, you don't get large swells here.

-2- BMWO can park their boat anywhere they like as long as the can make it to the starting area in time.

-3- We'll do a race series of best of 7; it is afterall as much a desigers/construction match as a sailing match. Thus show the audience that you haven't build one-days wonders

-4- 1 race per day and you can repair anything in the time we're not racing.

-5- Alinhgy may use their 3D sails. Limiting them to only Swiss based cloths and sailmakers constitudes an unfair disavantage with respect to any USA based team.

-6- DURING racing neither boat may use any external weather help or any electric equipment that measures the weather beyond 10 meters away from any point of the boat itself. We are testing sailing skills of the crew here and not who can program the best optimization routines to route a path through a completely known environment.

-7- You can use any water ballasting that you like in any way you see fit.

-8- No longer shall any boat be disqualified during measuring as long as no critical feature is altered in its specs after last week. We're racing these boats for kicks now and history will judge which team conquered the high ground irrespectly of who wins the most races.

-9- Both teams will shut the f@ck up and play nice during the event. This is the biggest showcase of sailing worldwide and I won't let any overblown ego, and that means your ego's Ernest and Larry !, to sour the milk for all those sailing enthousiasts and lobbists out there. Money had given both of you a high standing and now it is time to rise to the expectations and duties that come with such elevated and privilegded positions. You are now both ambassadors of the same SHARED goal and that is too make this event a success and show the beauty of sailing.

-10- I always reserve the right to make a binding (Salomon inspired) judgement in any case of contention. By default my ruling shall be "Shut the %@#^% up and race !"

-11- Any rule breaking of the above regulations by either team will see them forfit the race of the day. If you don't like that then go home and cry to your mama, because I sure as hell will give you the cold shoulder.

-12- Simply put, to either of you I'm God and not that softy version of the new testament. If you are in doubt with what that means I refer you to this Ezekiel 25:17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czb4jn5y94g


Now, did I make myself prefectly clear ?

...

DID ... I ... MAKE ...

Ernesto : "yes sir"
Larry : "How high ?"


Good.

Now lets race.

Wouter

New video from BMWO - WOW. Crank it!

At 2:43 you can see, what looks like, one of Ernesto's ultralights checking out/spying on the boat.

I'm pretty sure that's a sunglint...go to highres and watch full screen.

at 2:10 you can see Spithill crossing the boat on the rear beam.

yep, looks like your right. The little "press esc to exit..."
window in my Youtube won't disappear in full screen. Cursor offscreen and all it still won't go away on some clips. Pisses me off to no end.

Tawd, Try ALT+TAB . . .
disregard, I misunderstood your problem, the ALT+TAB will take you out of full screen. sorry.

Tawd,
After doing a little research, this seems to be a known issue. What browser are you using? Will the problem reproduce using another browser? I found a couple of things that might be helpful.
https://bugs.adobe.com/jira/browse/FP-972
You will have to set up an user acct if you haven't already.
http://www.macromedia.com/support/documentation/en/flashplayer/help/settings_manager03.html
If I had the problem I would remove the Flash player and reinstall it. Good luck.

I run Firefox and I tried a reinstall of the flashplayer. Weird thing is on some clips it doesn't do it , but most it does. It does it with Firefox and IE and there doesn't seem to be a work around, according to that Adobe site.

Wetter prediction so far:
Monday: off shore, 3bf, overcast, some rain
Tuesday: off shore, 3-4bf, gust up 35kts, sunny

however some forcast services predict lower wind speeds

Let's hope thez will not cancel racing on Tuesday

Cheers,

Klaus

there is no racing on Tuesday!

let's wait and see, it is a 2 day prediction. In case, will the race be postponed or cancelled?

racing is monday, wednesday, and (if required) Friday.

New extended video of USA sailing in very light air from today. NOTE: The friction reduction system slots are GONE! That whole thing was a fake!

Expect the protest flags to go up right at the 5 minute signal tomorrow on each boat. I believe Alinghi is going to protest that USA is not a "sloop" with the wing. I believe BMWO is going to protest Alinghi for their sails not be constructed in country.

Also note that SNG did NOT remove the recommended wind limits from the NOR as directed by the International Jury. They have also continued to fiddle with the rules of the match apparently - we're expecting more changes and trouble tomorrow.

Jake,

What was the final verdict on the water ballast? I liked your mention of the bow-high trim on Alinghi for measuring but maybe not racing... Can they move that ballast around, or are they locked in with the ballast as it is set for measurement?

In regards to ballast as far as I understand it:
1) They must fill the boat for measuring with as much ballast as they will race with.
2) They can put the ballast anywhere in the boat they want.
3) They can discharge the ballast but cannot take on more than what they measured with.

There's a lot of talk about it, but we've heard absolutely zilch about the measurement of either boat. BMWO did make an official statement or two that they didn't agree with the measurement procedure because it could lead to some ridiculous outcomes (200 foot LOA boat with two 3000 gallon tanks on the back to make it pop a wheelie and displace only 90' for measurement). There is also a lot of semi-official (press) speculation that Alinghi would have to have NO ballast in order to measure under 90 feet if sitting level but that she would need a good deal of ballast to handle any kind of breeze. They really cornered themselves with a design dependent on a questionable rule/measurement issue. At the outset, Alinghi had intended to be able to take on as much ballast as they wanted after measurement.

The New York Court ruling stipulated that the ballast was to be distributed evenly fore and aft...somehow that got changed (because it would effectively cripple Alinghi to the point where they couldn't measure in?).

Wed is looking like another light and unstable air day in Valencia...it's possible we see a repeat of Monday (racing cancelled). We've started a buddy system here where one person gets up to monitor the situation and starts dialing phone numbers when the 10 minute gun goes off. I've got free long distance (in the US) - if you are in the US and want me to call you, PM me. Payment for this service can be provided in beer or rum next time you see me.

I can only call so many numbers so it will be limited to 5 or so...Please, no x-girlfriend or in-law phone numbers. If I call one prank number at 4am - I quit calling immediately and you'll have to answer to the guys further down the list that didn't get called.

The LWL of BMWO 121ft (20ft more than Alinghi), they cheat the 90ft rule as much as Alinghi, by having a hull which is always in the air and has no rudder or daggerboard.

Weather prediction for Wed is even worse than Monday. Looks like a calm night for you guys over there.

Cheers,

Klaus

Klaus, wow! where did you find the 121' listed? I've always maintained that it was more than 110' but I never found any real evidence.

Both teams are definitely using all the room in the rules - but they are doing it in two different manners. Is one more legal than the other? I do believe so.

Suspended overhangs have been a part of the America's Cup since the very beginning and particularly the J class yachts that had the long glorious sweeping bows and sterns. When healed and carrying the leverage between the sail and the lead ballast, the J-boats (and all monohulls with overhangs) will extend their waterline length as the hulls are depressed deeper into the water. This is why the J-boats were designed with such extended overhangs.

BMWO has expanded on the suspended overhangs to a whole new level - but it is still a very similar situation.

Alinghi, on the other hand, has planned from day one to move ballast in order to shorten the waterline of their boat. Moveable ballast or dumpable ballst (other than the sailors and sails on board) has never been seen in the America's Cup...and outside of the Volvo ocean racing boats and a few other limited racing classes, movable water ballast is rather nontraditional...but I don't have the time here to go into the legalities of the water ballast issue.

The Deed requires measurement of the Load Water Line to be 90' (for single masted vessels). This LWL measurement, while popular in the 1800's with sailing vessels (which were the predominant cargo ships at the time), is mostly used today in the shipping industry. It is the static measurement of the boat in "load condition"...i.e. everything on board and in place ready to make sail including maximum cargo. Shipping vessels continue to use this parameter today to represent a fully loaded condition.

One could argue that measuring multihulls in this manner is a foreign concept to the LWL measurement and there would be some truth to that. There is an advantage to a trimaran configuration when restricted to a particular static LWL in that her ama overhangs can grow considerably compared to that of it's America's Cup monohull brethren. A catamaran can also utilize suspended overhangs (and Alinghi still does) but her sailing hull shape will be more affected by the rocker needed to suspend the bow and or stern at rest. You could also argue that the trimaran cheats the LWL measurement by flying on one ama and thereby increasing it's water line length when it is actually sailing. However, this is no different than the historic J-boats and other boats that used large suspended overhangs since the conception of the America's Cup. These types of boats have always leveraged suspended overhangs to increase their LWL when under way. LWL is a static measurement. What has never been done before is to move ballast around in the boat only during measurement to reduce their LWL in a "load condition" designed solely, and temporarily, to decrease the measured LWL at the time of measurement. Placing an exorbitant amount of weight in the stern of the vessel to make it pop a wheelie, and thereby decrease it's measured water line, is not "load condition" as defined by hundreds of years of common practice of LWL measurement as performed inside or outside the realm of the America's Cup.

I think having water tanks in the back of the boat is not such a bad idea considering how hugely overpowered these boats are.
BMWO where experimenting with extra weight near the transom last week so who knows...

Still very disappointing to not being allowed to go and see the big wing, IMHO a big #fail on BMWOs side.

why can't you go see the wing? I thought the BMWO compound was open to the public?

Great posts guys, thanks!

I just want to add a relevant detail regarding the trimaran design: its amas aren't paralel to the mainhull, they have a built in bow down atitude at rest. The ama bows touch the water first, so the boat can stay upwright at rest, its weight resting mostly on the mainhull.

The cat's trick is to make both floats with a bow up atitude that allows for long bow overhangs. Those are supposed to sink as windspeed and boatspeed increases, so as to enlarge the waterline. In light winds, however, the waterline will remain close to 90 ft unless ballast is used - which doesn't make sense in light winds.

Both are interesting approaches to the same concept: explore the large overhangs allowed by the absence of a max LOA.

I like the trimaran solution best, after all it looks a lot like my boat , but there is another reason for my preference, and it is best explained by John Shuttleworth here.

If you don't want to read it all, the key part follows:



In short: besides allowing for the long overhangs, the tri with inclined amas also reduces pitching in waves and benefits from the largeer waterline in all wind strengths, regardless ballast weight or position. But we will only know for sure if it is the best solution or not when the sail side by side.

Can't wait for the races.

If only that where true!
They have a building at the Darsena where they receive guests, invitation only btw, and the usual lame store with overprices merchandise like at every big regatta.
These are the best pictures I have from the wing, taken with a powerful cameralens, without the lens you cant tell a lamp post from the wing
A girlfriend of one of my friends asked Tom Ehman personally at the team presentation but the answer was no.


http://www.xs4all.nl/~tmels/P2083125.JPG
http://www.xs4all.nl/~tmels/P2083126.JPG

Alinghi changed to the mild S-boards today preparing for heavier winds, they have one on display at their base and it really is big up close. (The pics just down the whole boat justice).

Looking at livestream they are saying the start Wednesday will not be before noon due to weather conditions.

here: http://www.yachtingworld.com/fileBank/PDF/ac2010_preview_part_1.pdf

Jake,

I think we can agree that both teams violate the intention of LWL rule (and some other rules). It wasn't okay with the J boats, and it isn't ok today. Honestly I don't know if there is a more illegal or less illegal.
If BMWO or Alinghi wins the cup in the court and not on the water, it will be a shame. The boats are good, not 100% to the rules, but only a victory on the water without an aftermath in court can save was left over from the cup.

Cheers,

Klaus

I'll agree that using LWL is an inadequate way to define a modern sailboat measurement rule...how about that? :

Some pics I took today around the AC area:
Picasaweb Album
Explanation of how the S-boards work

Tony:

Is that the Alinghi team that is sailing radio controlled boats? Match racing with those for the Ant-mercias Cup.

Later,
Dan

"mainstream" press:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/09/science/09sail.html?ref=science

Yeah I think they where Alinghi team members, after they built the cat this was all they had left for training tools
The Alinghi base is very interesting though, they have a match racing simulator game with a moving **** etc.
Also a demo of realtime camera sailshape analysis (see pic).
There is also a fiberoptic sensor demo, pretty cool to bend a carbon rod and see in a monitor just how much bend there is etc.

That's really cool, perhaps EB should have put more carbon in the boat so his lake boat could stand up to waves over 3ft. He can't sail his boat in more than that because any pitching of the mast will have the load sensors screaming......or in his case whining.

y'all be sure to click on that link. That is one of the most popular nytimes articles (online) in the last few days.

No racing today. Alinghi sites a wave height of 1.2 meters and in a perpendicular direction to the predominant wind. I believe the wind was near 20 at the starting area. We're waiting for the BMW response (press conference forthcoming shortly) - they might not have agreed with the decision.

Jake:

Press conference live http://bmworacleracing.com/en/news/.../current/overview.html&track.type=sn

Doug

I only saw a few seconds of Spithill talking and he said that they were ready to go race but they were OK with the decision and had full faith the the PRO.

The front page article on the SA site nailed it:

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/index_page1.php

Nice to hear Spithill giving lots of credit to the multihull sailors in the team

from Spithill:

Good article, but as typical for the NY times it was mostly about Alinghi, not about USA 17, but it was a well written piece.

They definitely wouldn't be racing here on the Outer Banks today steady 25 gusting to 60 . They just closed schools for high winds and flooding. I really feel for the people North of us that are getting this with snow. Stay safe and warm.

In the beginning of the PC he said that the others that were to join him slipped away leaving him alone. I think that says something about what they really wanted to do. I don"t believe the others would have been a diplomatic.

Do I understand correctly that they had 15 knots of wind and 3-4-foot waves? And it was considered too dangerous for these large multihulls? That doesn't do much for the image of multihulls.

It was announced just before the press conference that racing was cancelled. Presumably they all slipped away to put all the gear and sails away and prepare the boat to stay on the mooring.

They had 18 knots - but yes...that pretty much sums it up. USA was ready to go. It's better for multihulls that they didn't have a race than to have one and have one of the boats implode in those conditions.

Which load exactly should it be that breaks a 100ft catamaran when it goes through a 3ft wave?
I am pretty sure the boat wouldn't break. 1 m waves translates to too much wind to have a chance against BMWO.

That's a toss up.

They did already break in 1 meter waves in RAK and had to put the boat back in the shed to repair a crack in one hull and reinforce them both.

While I agree they should have gone racing, I also think it would have been a big let down to have either boat fall apart out there before one race is even completed.

No win, no win. If they race and break, it doesn't look good. If they don't race because they are afraid of breaking, it doesn't look good.

Good point.

BMWO was ready to go. Alinghi clearly wasn't comfortable with the conditions. The RC didn't want the first race of the series to be a catastrophe and the weather was rough enough that BMWO wouldn't complain much, if at all. I think for the situation the PRO made the right call given the circumstances.

No, it's not glamorous and as you said earlier, this is why TV doesn't cover sailing over here. They simply can't accommodate this kind of scheduling problem.

so when is the next race?

Friday, they have one day on - one day off.

The PRO said that ever the past 3 weeks there have only been 5 days suitable for sailing. So don't hold your breath

What I dont understand is why BMWO didnt go out anyway, if they where ready what is stopping them from actually going out to the startline?

Saying you are ready is one thing, actually doing it another...

(btw, I just re-sent the email I sent to BMWO a few days ago to see USA17, I hope this time I will actually get a reply).

It was an onshore postponement.
Why would they? Do you sail out to the start line when racing has been canceled.The PRO isn't going to start a race just because one boat is out there if he wasn't going to start one anyway. I doubt they are willing to risk ANY damage just to prove a point, with nothing to gain.

Not sure what the issue is here. If the NOR says 15knots/1 metre and the conditions were beyond that it's a simple decision for the PRO. Anything else from either camp is just whinging............

What the hell? even an A class can handle that....
Why didn't they just race in the lakes in Switzerland......

[quote]Saying you are ready is one thing, actually doing it another...[quote]
I agree, talk is cheap, actions speak louder etc etc....

Everyone is going to blame the multihulls for a nonevent AC33, or so the word on the street is around here. bloody Public opinions.....

The NOR no longer says that - it is left up to the discretion of the PRO.

Good interview with some of the guys that designed, built the wing. They seem very confident about what they built.

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/otwa/2010/33ac_otw_archives.php?v=11

In case you don't have time, they were ready to go. The wing in 29 knots, no problem.

Precisely. Plus the waves were perpendicular to the wind. I guess it would have been postponed with monos just the same.

THAT RIDICULOUS STIPULATION IN THE NOR HAS BEEN REMOVED BY THE IJ!!!

Some good reading.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/07/cf/#p58

I thought the Volvo tri's were tough as didn't they sail through the southern ocean.? What the (*)(*)(* happened in the AC boats? Did lawsuit blow the designs to hell?

Doug

volvo tris?

no such thing Doug.

You talking ORMA 60 tris?

When are they going to race! New rules 15knots/1 metre, juice can't be warm, eggs must be 80 degrees. and the mailman can't be late?

if I am not mistaken, I believe one of the rules for AC racing says that it must be sailed in Salt Water.
However, I wonder if the Great Salt Lake in Utah would meet that particular requirement.

For the questions here regarding the PRO decision, schedule, etc. go to alinghi.com and listen to the press conference given after the Wednesday scrub. The PRO gave his side, then got drilled by a bunch of reporters.

The question about schedule came up. He said that he had asked the teams, and they both agreed that they want to keep the every-other-day schedule. He said he might revisit this as time goes by...

He admits to not knowing the safety limits or even performance capabilities of these boats (who really does?).

While I agreed with a lot of what Cory Friedman said in Scuttlebutt, even at the AC (especially with all the worldwide audience), it would be a pretty foolish PRO to just run the race and see who survives. At a minimum, it would be hard to imagine finding work at that level ever again. I know it's in the DoG, but a race of attrition isn't really a sportsmanline race. At the end of the day, the general public wants to see this thing sailed as fairly as possible to find a winner. Not that EB or LE care, but this thing has enough of a black eye.

Mike

I guess that is it. But aren't they tough and didn't they take some good sized seas? Why are these boats so fragile?

Doug

"ocean course" is the phrase the deed uses.

"Why are these boats so fragile?"

Good question. Cory Friedman has a good theory on why the Alinghi cat is underbuilt for Valencia in Feb. I think the jury is out on how strong BMWO is, but they seem pretty confident, and just by looking at it, I would expect it to hold together better than Alinghi.

Mike

Some new pics taken today, Larry's boat is huge btw. (compensating for something?).
Alinghi going back to straight boards for tomorrow, there seems to be a clear threshold between using curved and straight boards in different conditions.
http://picasaweb.google.com/TonyMels/ACValencia11210#

weather tomorrow looks weird. You've got 20 to 22 offshore with little to nothing on shore. By 1pm it dies around the race course and gets very fluky.

the start is delayed 2 hours tomorrow to 12 noon local - 6am est.

grrrrrr.

They must really trust their forecasting ability. If your forecast was right ,there goes tomorrow. No surprise.

We have the world's best sailors out there, but they can't race in 17 and 1.2 meter waves? It was an absolutely beautiful day yesterday. As mentioned before in this thread, we had the **** Hour with the designers and engineers of the USA 17 wing that answered a lot of questions about USA 17 handling the conditions. If there are any questions about why these boats aren't out there, one should ask EB or the PRO. Waterbug, I think they answered your questions yesterday.

I put up a new story today about what we are up to and what I think of what's going on which has new info about tomorrow.
America's Cup Gone Less Than Wild

they need to forget this every-other day stuff! If a race isn't started, they need to try again the very next day. If they do finish a race, THEN give a lay day.

I'm thinking that the teams are kind of enjoying the break. They've all been working ridiculous hours for a couple of years now.

Well, Valencia's mayor did want to postpone the start to 2/12, this is sort of working out that way...

Mike

yeah...except that everyone is starting to leave town.

It would not have been possible to sail two races anyway because Monday was impossible sailing weather.
Very few people where out 20nm yesterday so IMHO it was impossible to tell what the weather was like out there if you only where out 1nm like most people.
Fact is that sailing in Europe in winter sucks, today I got practically sand-blasted with a 30kt freezing wind and tomorrow is not looking to steady either.
Sailingwise the event would probably have been much better of in RAK.

JC: Do you know how to go see BMWO? I heard there is a bus going in the morning? Do you have any more info?

"Sailingwise the event would probably have been much better of in RAK."

I disagree. It would be better if both boats were built to race on the ocean in moderate to heavy breeze and seas. As others have mentioned, there are multihulls that race around the world, so it can be done.

Too bad the "sail to the regatta on her own bottom" phrase isn't used anymore. Oh wait, the Cup would never have gotten to this point...

Mike

One reason these boats are more fragile is because they were built to the lightest possible weight as light air was a distinct possibility for a race. Secondly it hard to compare the dependability of an ORMA Tri to a try with a 7000 square foot main sail (wing). I am not good at conversions but my understanding is that the wing around a couple of hundred feet long? Whats an ORMA tri? 125? 100??

Sorry Jake I missed that. As has been said I guess the PRO thought conditions weren't suitable. It could also be the privilege of being defender and being able to appoint the PRO......

They did take their own sweet time to modify the NOR but it was modified.

Hard to say. Most of those guys seem to approve of Harold Bennett. However, if the conditions are just slightly less tomorrow than on Wed you can expect them to start complaining quite publicly.

Is it back to a 4am start local time (EST)?

I think they've all ready postponed 2 hours 6 am . See top of this page.

And, according to JC the word is the black boat is going out tomorrow regardless.

http://bmworacleracing.com/en/news/.../current/overview.html&track.type=sn Says 5am central time. Don't miss an hour of it! That is the Oracle site.

Doug

I think you should rephrase it to "boat so fragile."

Tony, don't defend that since most were 1 mile out and it was nice, doesn't mean they shouldn't race 20 miles out. You were there; are you telling me you wouldn't go out 20nm in that?

They are race boats that should be able to take the seas. If the sailors have to slow them down a bit to get around the course so be it. We all have to do that in big seas. BTW, an Alinghi affiliate jacked our boat for tomorrow...........But for you tech buffs, we have the creators of the laser doppler technology, and we're gonna do a demonstration after we are there for the USA17 dock-out. And there's more

I bet that went over real well.

I'm looking at the forecast again and it's changed pretty dramatically. Low and behold, 10am looks beeeeaaaauuuutiful. 14 to 16 out of the NNW and relatively stable and consistent.

Guess what though? by 1pm, a shadow eases off the coast dropping wind speed. The wind gets much less stable and by 3pm, it's dead and fluky all over.

That 2 hour postponement may not look like such a bright idea when viewed in hindsight tomorrow afternoon.

JC:
Im going on the information the Pro gave at the press-conference that the conditions changed significantly once you got passed the 5nm point.
The fact that Ehman was out on the RC boat and hasnt said a word about this, he is usually not very shy, to me confirms that conditions where different than 1nm offshore (rumour is that he got seasick?)

Where are you hanging out today? I'll come over and say hi.

Well this is just ridiculous :
"From the committee boat.....wind direction and speed at WW mark: 340° 7 knots and at committee boat: 335° 6 knots, so we will be waiting for the forecast southerly which some forecasts have arriving early to mid afternoon."

So there`s a 5 deg and 1knot variation over a 20mile leg, and they would rather wait for a 180deg windswitch which MIGHT happen later this afternoon, so it can get all unstable and they can postpone it again, perhaps to October.

In the conditions they have RIGHT NOW they could be doing 20-30knots boatspeed and have a race in the bag in 2 hours, before the windswitch happens. Then, if they were proper sailors, they could have another race in the afternoon. Only they couldn`t because the sailing instructions say they need an extended tea-break after each exhausting race day (on which they don`t race), like until some time next week, when the weather is better.

This AC will go down in history as a huge farce, and it has nothing to do with the boats. Sad.

Nah, I think (hope) we'll look back and see the delays as only a small inconvenience in our lives. Yeah, they could probably be racing now...they could be racing better later...They WILL race. I'm cool with it and just anxious to see these guys go at it.

better look here for the proper numbers:
http://www.americascup.com/en/actualite/twitter/
with these numbers you can understand the postponement.
There is a lot of noise and wrong numbers around at the moment. Heard also somewhere that last Wednesday the wave height was rather 1-2m instead of 1.2m.
As usual, you can't judge the weather conditions if you aren't there (right on the water).

Cheers,

Klaus

get ready guys, switch your tv on, looks like racing today

Still have no clue who will win, Alinghi doing 17-18 upwind in 5-6 at the moment.
DZ crew chilling on deck (no pun intended).
First video of A5 tacking, cool.

Hope they start soon!

Start at 14:10 CET that is in 20 minutes from now.

Wouter

Ellison has gotten off the BMWO tri,Ernesto appears to still be on Alinghy 5.

Wouter

mark roundings to starboard (wrong way around)

Alinghy is doing a show pre-start, BMWO is sitting lame like a duck doing nothing.

Wouter

starboard start mark is 200 upwind to the pin end, so the commentators expect both boats to go the right of the start area in pre-start phase.

Weather is looking good.

Streaming video :

http://bmworacleracing.com/en/news/.../current/overview.html&track.type=sn

BMWO is finally sheeting their sails in ! And have unrolled their genoa

Boats are manouvring !

well with a rigid wing, you can stand without flogging a sail...
BMWO is steeting ist sails now

both a sailing now, 16mins til start

2.5 min to AP down.

then 10 min to start

5 to 6 knots of breeze on 20 nm race course

Ernesto is helming so it helps to stay on the boat.

Bloody Hell !

Another delay ?

Get on with people, boats can also do 15 knots in 4 knots of wind.

Wouter

This is really impacting my work schedule for today. I'm sitting at home and just missed my scheduling meeting...doesn't look like I'll make my 9 o'clock either!

Another postponement due to winds dropping to 2-3 knots.

Boats are sailing quite nicely by the way, no problems there.

Can we please get beyond the procedures, rules and wind measurements just bloody start the race ?

If both boats are moving nicely in 3 knots of wind then why postpone ?

Wouter

Jake.. I think it may be time for an intervention. We're your friends and I think this has gone on a bit too long

Is ESPN360 working for anyone? It says now playing for me but I just get a blank screen, I wanted to hear Randy

What is the problem exactly?

Both boat lifting their luff (centre) hulls out of the water.

RC is now considered about a hole in the middle of the course.

I guess these sort of things happen on a 20 nm course.

Wouter

I'm on BMWO website streaming video and this works fine for me.

http://bmworacleracing.com/en/news/.../current/overview.html&track.type=sn

That's where I am... but I wanted to hear Randy!

I can't believe how close the dolphin striker is to the water on Alinghi! No wonder why they don't want to sail in waves.

Working fine for me.

As much as I respect BMWO (and their website) I must say Alinghy is the crowd pleaser at this time. Marvelous looking boat that Alinghy 5

Alinghy is quite fast through their tacks. Doesn't look like they are really disadvantaged there.

Top of course : 5.5 knots 165 degrees

Middle of course : 4.5 knots 160 degrees

Bottom (start): 3.0 knots 165 degrees

LETS RACE !

What are we waiting for ? Perfect conditions ?


I can't overstress how powered up Alinhy looks; ikt just flies its luff hull in 3 kntos and makes good speed.

Wouter

14:24 flag will be lowered

Looks like we are ready to rumble

AP flag (postponement) down now !

We're going to start !

most match racing goes stbd hand as there are more rule issues that way.

the course in the right way round!!!!!

Foxtrott

9 minute signal to start now (exact)

large genoa select on bmwo

It is absolutely beautiful weather for this race !

(scooby: I know but it was the easiest way to explain the course)

BMWO drops ballast

I'd love to see BMW draw a foul off Alinghi at the start but i'm not so sure how much it would hurt to have to do 1 penalty turn on these boats! Could probably make that up in seconds of sailing.

Holy crap.. That didn't take long

Rookie mistake by oracle, getting into irons !

And missde the start completely

BMWO has only started now , 2 min late

Alinghy 500 mtr lead

well after giving Alinghi a penalty...

Alighny replacing headsail

Genoa is poiting to low and go for jib

Foul by Alinghi!!!! Has to do 270 during race!!! Come on Oracle!!

Doug

looks like BMWO has better vmg, slower but points higher

Speed and pointing appears balanced between both boats

Fair racing, and a balanced start. Alighy 400 mtr ahead but a penalty down

Wouter

Alinghi get the start!! Crap

Commentars making blunders. Alinghy has been flying a hull consistantly despite their comments. Have to get better specs baby

BWMO, as a tri, just have to heel over further to lift the centre hull clear, A doesn't.

A is riding with hull just out of water showing great skill.

Wouter

trimaran not doing so bad in the light stuff! :-)

BMWO is overtaking A. It has a pointing advantage.

open your eyes, BMWO is now in front. BMWO is faster upwind. Same speed but points higher

Jake,

The tri is looking very good indeed !

Wouter

funny - that lightweight cat isn't flying a hull but 50% of the time!

but oooh, what a horid start for USA (other than the foul)

I really don't agree here.

They are kissing the surface just like you want.

Appart from the time BMWO was overtaking then they were pinching probably for tactical reasons.

Wouter

BMW dropped their jib, to point higher.

Nice move.

wow, BMWO now without headsail. Can still hold the speed. Did the wind increase?

Guys; cannot get video from the BMWO site to work; what sort of speeds are the boats doing up wind? ETA at windward mark?

They're pointing like a uni, oh wait, how they are a uni!

Can't wait for the downwind!

bmw pulling away wing only. higher and faster

NOw A looks faster, but below them.

A 18.5kts
BMWO 21+ !!!

BMWO goes over 20 as uni, still pointing higher thena Alinghi which makes around 18. Don't know about the wind. At the start it was around 8.

OK now both around 20

now alinghi comes closer?

A now pointing better and coming back at 3m/s

Does BMW have a canting rig?

is this changing wind speed, or lack of training? Alinghi comes closer.

BMWO removing their jib is not good, they are bleeding their lead and can soon by left with only a higher positions.

I think that settles the cat-rigged - sloop rig discussion.

Wouter

Alinghi closed up, but know, both seem to be equal fast, with some 100m for BMWO. And not to forget about the penalty

C'mon Wout, give us a formula! ;-)

Looks to me like Oracle are in a nice position to cover Alinghi at this point. Why blast off into la-la land and find a hole? If they can tack quicker than Alinghi they look golden at the moment

I thought you had to do your turn before the next mark?

yeah, BMWO is in better position, but I'm really impressed by how equal both boats seems to be now.

Wouter

Not in mathc racing

definitely Oracle covering. They dropped 10 degrees and footed down to Alinghi and dropped a lot of lead as a result. They must not be too concerned about their downwind speed. they definitely seem to have an advantage upwind...but this is a one lap race...I'm not sure that you don't take off and try to get as far away from the other boat as you can instead of covering. then again, Alinghi still owes a penalty turn.

Scooby,

both boat are often clocking in the range of 17-22 knots VMG !

in 6 to 8 knots of speed.

Wouter

Depends; some match races just require the unwinding at the end; gives the burdend boat more time to get a reciprocal penality against to cancel out.

As far as boat speed, they are both very even now. A seems to be pointing equally well now.

VMG!!! WOW; So what angle and velocity are they travelling ?

Could be a one hour beat with that VMG.... !!!

In training A. did the full course in 2 hours 3 min I believe in 5 knots of wind.

Wouter

well, the last manoeuvre from BMWO was a desaster

I agree with smith here, If you got so much extra speed and pointing upwind why risking the race on another such foul up.

I'm not at all a great match racer, but isn't a few nm lead one of the best ways to "cover" your win ?

Wouter

The horizontal foil on the back of A looks really cool.

BMWO powering away a little bit now - around 2m/s increase

The commentators on BMW website are.........

lead now out to +500m

514 - 517 - 519 - 520 - 519 etc...

My provider won't get to ESPN360 either, bummer.

Yep, BMWO is the better upwind boat in these conditions 6-9 knots upwind)

620m + now

Somewhere around 2 miles to the layline now.

alinghi tacks

A tacks!

and has absolute no pb with it

decent fast tack by A. as well.

Nicely executed.

BMWO trucks along on same course.


No covering ?

they are preparing on BMWo

Di Alinghi tacked too early. BMWO still cruising

BMWO tacks now

no BMWO got caught off guard

oh the agony. I've got to go to work. I wish they had started at 4am! (did I just say that?).

this online player is working for me

http://www.skysports.com/americascup

Come on, don't miss the downwind leg. Now thez go just 20kts...

THANKS SCOOBY!!! (finally)

I take it Randy Smyth is the american voice?

I have no sounds; how long to windward mark?

Scooby ,

A correction.

around 15 knot VMG for both boats
17-22 knots absolute speed through the water

6-9 knots of wind

and about 20 min to the mark

On Sky sports, that's not Randys voice.

~2 minutes to top mark

I'm on the BMW site

10kt's at top mark! That'll be interesting

Jobson and Smyth are on www.espn360.com Good picture and great sound.

Doug

BMWO Furls the jib to tack, interesting.

Engine noise, that's just wrong

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU SCOOBY. My students and I are now wathching the 33rd Americas Cup live. I owe you dude.

A bit late on that headsail

SLOOOOOOWW spi set on A.

Wouter

On A that is

Yeah, took forever to unroll

they didn't solve the penalty?

You know,

it was quite sporting of BMWO to give them that head start at the start.

Nope, A still has the penalty turn.

Alingy is all over the place with their steering going downwind.

I'm at work and risking some trouble for streaming video...but I just can't stand it. Alinghi is toast if BMWO holds together. I think aboutg all they can hope for is for something to break on the other boat.

both boats are snaking downwind, but A. too much for my taste.

Wouter

BMWO is hauling A$$!

the tri is deeper and flying hulls consistently. 25 knots for the tri and 19 for the cat downhill...ouch. BMWO consistently deeper AND faster.

alinghi is dead slow downwind
20kts alinghi
23kts BMWO
thats disappointing after 20kts upwind

Now we will see what Alinghi BIG genaker can do!!

Doug

looks like a too flat gennaker

I thing the results are clear now

That wing looks really strange.

Is BMWO using their Laser Wind mapping system? Could knowing what the wind looks like up to a mile ahead be responsible for what they have been doing?

Is that yodeling I hear??........ No it's the fat lady!

Alinghy ! Get out the Whoomper !

Wouter

BMWO is the better boat for these conditions obviously.

I do believe A. is underpowered downwind now; the are snaking too much to lift the luff hull.


If I were A. I would pray for seastate and wind for the next racers, shake that wingsail about.

Wouter

Oracle is smoking them and they STILL have to do a 270. I think is is OVER!!

Doug

definetly BMWO selected the right skipper. They go downwind straight.

3300 meters = 2.05 miles

A. is simply disappointing downwind.

Lets see how they are going to adres the next races. Do thye have a taller mast stashed down somewhere ?

If BMWO wins will the next AC be run in the sloughs off the San Carlos airport so Ellison can watch from the roof of Larry Land?

Jobson was just converted.

"You know what. After seeing these boat speeds, in this light wind, let the designers go wild."

A. is better in the control now, but each time it takes them to long to get to grips. BMWO crew is also better trained.

My guess is that they are underpowered and are desperate to build apparent wind; looks like it's not working....

Yep, that is my impression as well.

only a shorter one as far as I know

A's headsail leach is fluttering

Those big boats are so smooth compared to the chase boats near them.

I assume it's just the camera angles; but looking at A from astern; it looks like the front beam is being compressed a lot and that the bows are further apart than the sterns....

The ESPN 360 footage looks fine on the 55" flat screen. Technology is a wonderful thing!

I salute the Oracle team - they have clearly built the faster machine and their handling in a straight line is a joy to watch. Alighi looks really old fashioned in comparison with the lower aspect/overlapped sail plan.

That is bad ! A fluttering leach can increase drag enormously

A. is pulling BMWO back and are matching their speed now, but they are doing so FAAAAR to late.

It took A. too long to settle down and find the groove. BMWO crew and boat combo is just as you want them to be (apart from getting into irons at the start)

looks a bit as BMWO reduced speed

A's taking a pee!!

Looks like ALOT of water.

Oracle makes it look SO easy...I think is done UNLESS they run a 3 knot race Sunday or Tuesday.

Doug

GG jobson, you promoted cat sailing like you said you would.

F16 and F18 plugging by Randy!

could be 5000m distance if BMWO would like to, I guess

Sh!T ! And I missed it.

What did he say !

Hands down to BMWO, a win with class and margin, got to respect that deeply.

Wouter

So the next AC will be back on the mono's right.....

or

Can we now get the Tornado back in the big O, please ?!

Wouter

No, there is almost no tacking so there will be complains about having the tactical aspect removed. Multis are bad for sailing, did you not know that?

Sorry, I forgot to factor in that tid-bit!

I guess having lost, no need for the circle

did I miss A take the penalty?

here comes their round !

ok, there it is!

Yes; they should still do it; otherwise DNF.

If they finish; then BMW loose the next then it goes down to the final race. If both boats failed on final race A could win with a 1st and 2nd vs 1st and DNF

Good for them for taking the penalty turn! Very sportsmen like.

oop, maybe not

Does that count if they cross the line then turn? That doesn't make sense to me.

Now they're saying A screwed up the finish, and is having to go back! Sunday should be interesting.

If they could have this kind of coverage for the Olympics, I would probably be glued to the TV or computer for the sailing event. (or at least for the catamarans) I think even non-sailors would find it exciting.

wahhhooo

that was awesome to watch!

Race 1 in the books.

Now they'll want to put a tri in the Olympics?? Much faster than a cat.

They did.

We just saw history made.

Too bad about the irons at the start for Spithill. Other than that a perfect race. Though I wanted him to tack sooner for that first tack. I was afraid he was overshooting the layline. I guess they are smarter than me.
Though if they would have got a big lift they would have lost most of their lead. Certainly never want to open the door to your competition.

The problem I see, is that there were no mangroves or mud flats in the course.
Good job anyway to BMWO!!!

Here`s what I think :
Alinghi finished first and then did the penalty to do one of several possible things :
- See what the real time difference was between them, OR
- File for redress and claim the they were not in the wrong, protest BMWO for the startline incident. By finishing before doing the penalty, they are basically saying they are not admitting guilt.
Guess which option I think they are going with, based on their "sportsmanlike" behaviour in the past.

I concur, sounds par for the course.

I thought the purpose of the on the water judges are to end the protests? If the judge says you fouled, then you fouled.

If you looked closely at A's rudder upwind it looked like their sail plan was overpowering the rudders. Poor balance or rudders too small IMHO.

Alinghi appear not to have completed their penalty properly and so the final delta is 15 minutes and 28 seconds.

The swiss guys walked around the main AC building waving their flags and sounding their bells, very cool of those guys after the loss.
I just talked to JC and we both agreed its not over yet...
Flying home in an hour, awesome to have been to Valencia.

where can I watch the replay in HD?

I noticed on the Americas Cup website:

"Sunday’s scheduled second race, around the 39 miles Deed of Gift triangle course, of three 13 miles legs"

Multihulls with a reach leg, this should be good.

Improper finish. A5 Had to go back. More ugly than my famous cartwheel finish at Roton Pt. (Finished our race with the mast crossing the line.)

My take - WHAT A DRAMATIC START! that was wild! irons on the startline...I hate that when that happens.

BMWO obviously dropped the throttle once both upwind and downwind and still made it look like a cakewalk. I truely believe they could have won that 20 mile race by more than the 2.2 miles they did - it could have easily be 5 miles, maybe even 6 on a 40 mile race. That's at least a 12 to 15% better efficiency around the course...amazing.

And this was supposed to be the wind that the boat's transitioned and should have been somewhat equal with A5 having an advantage in lighter wind. We didn't see that today at all - USA showed the ability to consistently fly both hulls all day. Alinghi spent 30% of the time with their windward hull skimming the water upwind. Downwind they had to go much higher to fly the hull than USA. I genuinely thought that USA-17 had the technical advantage but I didn't think it was going to be by this much.

Now that I've lost a bunch of worktime today, I wont' get to see the press conferences, but I can't wait to hear the reactions from both sides. I'm betting Alinghi will be saying something that implies that the wing isn't a sail and the tri isn't a sloop.

Randy was asked to comment on F16 and F-18 sailing by GJ and did so very well, naturally: Also their racing commentary was dramatically better than the 2 old fat guys on BMW/Oracle site. Much more sailorly!

Let's see...

Dial-up... check
Drama... check
Tactics... check
Unprecedented speed... check

Even the Yachties are waxing post-coital. That was pretty badass. How can you look back after this?

They'll find a way. I'm sure they said the same types of stuff in '88.

You suppose we will now have a better chance of racing on Sunday. A wanted the light stuff to supposedly show off their better performance but had trouble keeping powered up. Now maybe they will want to schedule a bunch of wind to try the opposite as they got their butt kicked in what they thought they wanted.

Reaching in "high" winds.. Where the wing really will shine (if the flaps can twist enough).. Bring it on!

http://espn.go.com/broadband/espn360/player?gameId=8378&sportCode=BT&league=Sailing

I had to miss work today due to no day care, after missing work all week due to snow. Felt bad about missing work, but no more!

That was simply the coolest AC match I've ever seen. I think that may be the coolest sailing footage ever.

Overall - I think BMWO has a better knowledge of their boat. It took A too long to change modes and shift gears. A looks to be a bit more maneuverable, and showed good speed once in the groove. Either the grove is too hard to keep, or the crew doesn't have it all dialed in. Watching the mark rounding and the first part of the downwind leg pretty much summed that up.

If A gets things figured out they have a chance. A tacking duel would suit them well. If today is an indication, BMWO has the sailing and teamwork advantage regardless of the boats.

Good thing this will only last for three racing days max, I'd end up getting fired if it lasted longer!

Off to have a cigarette...

the conversation about proas... funny. smyth did a great job. Too bad there isn't much of a market for him commentating.

Guys,

I just got home. How can I see the video. ESPN coverage seems to be USA only. Sailing Anarchy is down. The official AC33 site did not seem to have any video. Has interest been so big that it is taking down sites?

I think BMW would win a tacking duel. BMW keeps their speed up much better

try the bmworacle site

thanks. that is what I am watching but doesn't seem HD necessarily... at least not full screen

It seemed on the few tacks to the mark that A actually kept speed better (the first tack for either boat anyway) through the maneuver, IMO.

uuuughhh. the only video I can find is bla, bla, bla press conferences. Anyone know where I can watch the start. I tried everywhere.

After the presser from Alinghi, they'll be replaying the race on the BMWO feed.

Love him or hate him Butterworth is funny. At least he's being honest. EB did have to bring up the sloop thing.
Isn't BMWO a sloop? The wing doesn't change the configuration.

Can someone summarize the press conferences for me? I don't have time to watch them yet...not until I get snowed in tonight anyway.

BOR paraphrase: We still have 1 left to go and we're 110% focused on that.

A5 paraphrased: We have work to do. Alinghi seems to be humorous in their assbeating.

Did that guy that EB was giving crap say he was from SA? It sure sounded like it, and EB was pretty cold. I was wondering if Clean and JC sent in a sleeper, since they were banned.

Just got this from Alinghi:

Try http://bmworacleracing.com/en/news/livestream/?track.refer=/en/index.html&track.type=home

Well that put it pretty mildly.

I can't find the audio you're referring to, and I doubt my POS Mac would let me hear it anyway, but my conspiracy theory detector points to Matt Bounds. Anyone else notice how absent he's been this week?

Matt, if you are there, I'm very jealous.

Mike

I think Alinghy's press conference was very well done. You guys have got to give Ernesto more credit then that. They were well proportioned in their statement and magnanimous even.

Wouter

Thanks for the love guys. I think you fully missed it on this one.
JC

The guy said he was from sailing anarchy.de, German version or something, very heavy accent. Ernesto definitely didn't like him and was sarcastic as hell and kinda lost his cool. I guess JC would have said something if they had, but then again it's JC, sometimes I need a translator for his code.

It was a great race! I would have gotten fired at work for watching the race good thing I'm already fired! Ha!

I put off working on the TMS-20 to watch the race. Nice being my own boss now.

A did not seem dailed in at all, like I said before too much time filing court docs and not working on the boat.

BMWO was one with the wind! Will it be a two race cup?

After watching both post race press conferences, and seeing the behavior of both teams, it makes me wonder if all the stress and BS leading up to this is what was making some of the players act up the way they did. Maybe they are more like us than we realize, in that, a day on the water clears the mind , strips away the haze and let's you focus on the important stuff.The BMWO guys were clearly respectful and pointed out repeatedly that "this is only one race". The Alinghi guys were for the most part respectful and almost seemed to have conceded. Brad Butterworth earned a lot of points in my book for really telling it like it was. I honestly didn't expect that. It's refreshing to see some modicum of sportsmanship, FINALLY. Let's hope it will last.
Here's a clip of BB coming into the dock and what he had to say.
Butterworth On Alinghi

Do they really need a headsail that overlaps the mainsail that much downwind? It seems like a piece of kit for chasing zephyrs on a lake.
We all probably oversheet our mainsails when flying spinnakers, but they seem to sacrificing any twist in the main to keep tension on the forestay.
With that big a slot, you are gonna have to keep the mainsail flat to stop it chocking
With a smaller downwind head sail, they could have a bit of camber and twist in the main which would take away the aggressive helming.

Geeeez, The rubbish that keeps me awake at night........................

me too.
EB said, that the boat was too overpowerd downwind, but for me it looked rather like underpowered, having difficulties to lift the hull.
In this case a quick fix could be to modify the traveller so they can pull it to windward. If they are overpowered, they should try a smaller gennaker, if they have one.
I guess that best they can do is to pray for winds below 8kts.

Cheers,

Klaus

I'm quite sure that even lighter winds will not help Alinghi. As it was, BMWO was able to fly hulls sooner and sail much higher upwind and lower downwind. I saw Alinghi trying several things with weight distribution both upwind and downwind but they could not get close to sailing similar angles as USA while keeping a hull flying.

ior

I think what he means when he says they were overpowered is the boat couldn't take anymore structurally. The wing is a superior.

I would like to see the two race with soft sails. It would be a better measure of the platforms.

Just notices that both boats rounded the windward mark from the opposite direction than listed in the Sailing Instructions, probably means nothing but isn't that clumsy?
Too bad I had to go home yesterday, the prices of the spectator boats have dropped by 50%!
I wanted to go out yesterday but I would have definitely missed my flight home.

The wind was definitely faster yesterday, although I also think it has quite a bit more surface then the A5 normal mainsail.

heard at SA:

A wingie killed Alinghi.

Alinghi brought a cat to a DoG fight.

Every DoG has its day.
A CATastrophe!

I do really fear that when BMWO does win this AC we will go back to the proverbial shitboxes, a fear that I know even some US sailors share.

Not in reply to anyone posts inparticular. Maybe its already been mentioned. I was looking at the race last night and it looked to me that Alingis slot going upwind was closed. Maybe it was the camera angle.

Let's face it, at this level it's a billionaire's game. Mono's return.

And the contrast of the sail shape's. BOR fuller shapes, A board flat.

I just put some new pics online from the AC building in Valencia.
Picasaweb Album
The Swiss had a little procession after the loss.
Ringing their cowbells and airhorns:

I'm not sure that even Alinghi could have gotten enough interest in it to have it on multis...so yeah, I'm afraid that's probably going to happen...but who knows? Maybe Ellison is amped up enough about multies that we might have an AC raced on a class 40' or 60' winged trimarans WITHOUT ENGINES (would that be cool?)

I just noticed something that the reporters missed, see Alinghi dumping water-ballast going upwind? (just before the windward rudder).

I probably know less about catamarans and racing than anybody else here, but I was wondering if it is really possible that a catamaran could beat a trimaran, especially in a case where each designer is doing his best to optimize speed.

They talked about that quite frequently on the native coverage - they dumped ballast pretty often - I presume they were trying different configurations to see if they could get better performance (or maybe were shifting to accomodate different wind).

I also thought of something else too - the times they had both hulls in the water may have been intentional in order to scoop up ballast.

Yep,
I noticed that also, Then downwind they saw it and made a big deal about it.
You said the SIs said port roundings? Harold Bennett made an announcement over the radio that there would be starboard roundings, before the first proposed AP drop.Are Starboard roundings just a match racing thing or what? Don't seem to see them much anywhere else.

They were scooping alot of water then. I say poor boat balance and poor helm.

I just can not believe the Alinghi sailing team not knowing how to set up the boat for absolutely best VMG, needing to experiment during the race.. If there is one thing I have learnt, it is to not begin fiddling with settings during a race. If I know this, surely the pros on A5 knows it, if not Ernesto (I call him Grumgold, becouse the whole AC33 is like something out of Ducktales with Uncle Scrooge and Grumgold matching up, money be damned) needs to hire me.

Starboard roundings are the standard in match and team racing... creates more rules situations which in turn creates more possible plays.

That being said it doesn't do anything when the lead boat is 3+ minutes ahead.

Do you think BMWO is a tri? It sailed 99% of the time as a cat (center hull out of the water). So a cat has beaten another cat.
The big differences are in the size (length and width) and the rig, maybe in the LIDAR (doppler laser) wind measure equipment. I don't know about the weight difference. Overall BMWO has the better package for the wind speeds we saw yesterday. Maybe in other wind conditions the race will be closer, maybe not.

Big diff is the rig, and time on the water I think. BMWO certainly manouvered as a tri when tacking/gybing, even if that is a minor point compared to their boatspeed.

Hope there is racing tomorrow as well, and that Glomgold, err Ernesto hands over the wheel to one of the pros becouse as long as Uncle Scrooge, err Larry dont drive..

EB said in the presser that he wasn't changing any crew including himself. I think alot of us here could do as good or better than that downwind leg.

Oh wow, that's a good comment. I guess you have already some expierence with sailing the Alinghi 5 or a comparable boat under those weather consitions you have only seen on TV.
I don't like EB as well, but he won the Bol d'or 5 times and was third in the Fastnet race and I like the fact that he takes the helm and the likly defeat on his shoulders. At least he stands his man.

+1

I think Larry should do the same and helm BMWO, but he is taking the safe route.

I agree about him standing his ground , but the windward hull,on the DW leg,looked like it was attached to a bungee chord or a yoyo. With the money invested in that boat,either he can't steer or an engineer screwed the pooch. Which do you think is the case? I'm not picking on EB, just saying I saw a whole lot of splashdowns. I think the engineers did a better job than that.
As far as experience on Alinghi, I've got three of them sittin' on the beach behind my house. They're easy to sail but the beach wheels are heavy.Geeeeezzzz. Obviously experience driving Alinghi is a tough commodity to come by.

Smyth made a comment that he really felt like the mainsail was much too flat. I think that might lead to having trouble managing the power in the boat.

Maybe they should institute an owner/driver rule. I'd like to see that, but don't see it happening.

I heard them say that BMWO weighs about 2,000 pounds more than Alinghi.

I guess technically when either one is riding on one hull they're a mono...

After watching the replay, I'll change my earlier comment about A looking faster through the tacks. The main thing on that I noticed during the live coverage was that it looked like a lot of time was spent on BOR just getting ready (the ant march of crew from one ama to the other for instance). After watching it again on replay, I'd say A is toast there as well unless they learn to get the boat back up to full boil quicker.

On the cat versus tri thing - the tri config helps the tacking. When the boat comes down as she turns, that main hull is most of what is in the water (amas are touching, but not carrying the main load). There's generous rocker in that one hull, so the boat is going turn a lot easier than A. When A goes through the turn both hulls are in the water, not much rocker to the hulls (forward anyway). She still seems to turn nice given that. The headsail management looks easier on A going upwind and tacking - would only affect things if wind was light enough for BOR to use the jib upwind.

I was also noticing on the replay that A pitches a lot more in the waves upwind - I hadn't noticed it as much watching live. There was a definite contrast to BOR being more steady and A pitching. So, wing or no, A having gone to the straight boards might have also been a mistake.

The big overlapping sail downwind on A just looked like a main-choker to me. I think they may have relied too much on the light air experience from Lake Geneva - what works there may not have as much direct use in other venues. Seeing how much camber was put into BOR's wing downwind made A's sails look way too flat.

And I think it's obvious that A's crew/team doesn't have the knowledge of the desired settings for each wind range and sea state - too much effort hunting for the right config. I think they found it at points on the course but by then BOR had put more distance on them.

So, my new winter project - canting wing sail and banana boards on my F-27...

Can't wait to watch tomorrow...

As I wrote earlier. To me this looks just like a Uncle Scrooge vs. Glomgold grugde match. Owners drive, that should go into the Deed of Gift in my opinion just to complete the illusion.

I wonder if the curved daggerboards (foils) on BMWO were an advantage. Supposedly Alinghi has the ability to use either straight or curved boards, but chose to use straight boards Friday.

Yeah, the first third of the downwind leg was painful to watch as A carved up hard to power up, then drive down a bit, carry then splash, then repeat. Combo of things leading to that, IMO, but it sure didn't look good for the helm...

Jimmy said they had a big puff which they where able to carry a long way down the course.
I just watched a replay of Eurosport and you can see that BMWO was also making quite a lot of course changes, at one point I see them bearing away something like 45 degrees.
Shifty conditions are never easy to sail in and I wonder what happened if you would sail 10 races, what the outcome would be.

Looks like they've postponed 2 hours for Sunday ,already.

Yes, as I said if you aren't there at the same time and place, you can't know about wind and waves. And I think you was closest from all of us. However I think that after 10 races BMWO would be similar succesful. The possible wind range of Alinghi seems to small.

Considering the rocking horse behaviour (BMWO did as well upwind), I think that most has to do with hull length (30ft more for BMWO) and hull shape. Alinghi has more reserve volume in the hulls (much more freeboard) and as consequence is rocking more. No big surprise that the larger and heavier boat moves more steady.
In theory, BMWO could use its sensors and flap actuators to damp the rocking motion, but this is pure speculation from my side.

On one hull they are monos... but for ballast, stability, hull shape, drag, speed, etc.

The pitching difference relates to Alinghi having bow overhangs to measure at 90 ft LWL, while BMWO's floats are free from measurement restrictions, the boat resting on the mainhull for measurement. BMWO is better balanced. It also relates to the inclination of B's amas, as I posted before in this same thread.

Also dreaming of a wing and curved board, but already have a cascading system for canting.

The official rumour is that A5 is 8,000 lbs and USA-17 is 12,000 lbs. I think they have USA-17 a little heavy. I would believe 10,000 at 2,000 lb heavier...but I think they might well be closer than that.

I remember seeing that. They took a big puff and drove down at the same moment that A was flat and heading up for heat (at least that's the way it looked from the camera angle). I wouldn't expect either to sail a straight course downwind, that wasn't the point. But BOR's heating and diving actually kept the boat rolling - either the boat has an easier groove or Spithill is better at keeping it there. A5 would go flat in the water before heating up in the early part of the DW leg. They got in a better grove in the lower part of the downwind leg, consistently keeping the boat flying.

10 race scenario - my guess is that after a couple of races the A5 crew would be more in tune with the boat and things would even out a bit, with the overall advantage over 10 still to BOR.

Was A5 pitching more from the water ballast? Once they blew the water out it seemed to handle better.

What time tomorrow?

Two considerations,

First, How long do you think it would take to get in a 10 race series?
Given that it took a week to get off just one race, that might be a three month proposition.

Second, do you think either one or both of those boats really has TEN races of durability built in to them ?
I don't.

Just something to think about.

It WAS fun to watch, and I am really looking forward to seeing them match up on a reaching leg.

Stephen

Yes, the overhangs of A5 give a keel shape that would seem to not counteract pitching, essentially adding rocker forward. My 6.0 does the same thing (deck is flat, but the keel actually has decent amount of rocker). They had used S boards before I believe. As for BOR, I would characterize the amas more by the profile given by their keels, stems, and decks - that's what gives the characteristics. Saying that they are inclined gives words to the eye cues, but it's not that the designers said "hey, let's just take the amas we have and point the noses down", then again, maybe they did... Either way, the amas have buoyancy forward and low, and the boards are helping provide more. In the end we're saying the same thing differently. A5 pitches, BOR does not.

Canting system looks good, I'm stuck in the real old school with a non-rotating fixed spar. Maybe that's my first step...

All those things you state be true. I was just responding to the posed 10 race question somebody else had.

Hmmm, don't remember. It was after the first tack about 2/3 of the way to the second tack upwind. It was most obvious from shots from the lee of A5 that showed both boats. It wasn't out of control type pitching, but it seemed more than BOR was experiencing.

I do think they have plenty in them. the BMWO platform has been in existence for three years and gone out and sailed 200 mile days regularly during that time. The wing has actually proven to be quite reliable although it's would certainly require some maintenance here and there.

I think we'll be a little surprised with these boats. Expect some speed trials and testing after the matches are done

Not before 12:00 CET today.