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N20 Owner's Meeting Update

Posted By: samc99us

N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/09/10 05:38 AM

All,

6 N20 owners met last weekend at Spring Fever to discuss class changes and updates. The biggest issue discussed was the sail plan:

1) Nacra has agreed to modify the sail plan following a written proposal, which the N20 class president has agreed to write.

2) This proposal states that a new spinnaker will be developed no later than Q1 2011, a new mainsail will be developed no later than Q1 2012, and a new jib will be developed no later than Q1 2013.

3) The owners at the meeting agreed to be active in the sail development. Effective immediately, this means the following:

a) Prototype spinnakers (2) will be acquired from Nacra. This will travel to regattas and rotate boats. The southeast fleet (NC through FL) will likely have them first, followed by the WRSC fleet and the west coast fleet.

b) The sailors agreed not to protest users of the new sails when they are under development, and rotate them amongst boats to better evaluate their performance.

c) The sailors present agreed to put a deposit down for a new spinnaker to help fund R&D costs.

At this point, little interest from Nacra Europe exists in the class. We need to take matters more into our own hands, however, changes won't happen without $$. The other driving force is class membership; if 50 boat owners sign up to be class members ($5, http://www.nacraclass.com/Nacra%20Class%20Member.pdf), we gain a controlling interest in the class and have ~ equal voting rights as the Nacra board of directors in the say of all things N20.

The other idea brought up at the meeting was a southeast points series, similar to the Harken points series run several years ago. 5 events will be selected, and the best score out of 3 of the events will have their name engraved on a perpetual trophy.

-Sam
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/09/10 12:58 PM

Thanks for the update Sam. Good to hear about the sail plan. Its nice to know that after many years of being in the dark regarding the owners participation in the class - we can have a say in the future development of the boat.

BK will surely be surprised! :P
Posted By: Capt_Cardiac

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 02:39 AM

I'm all in.

I'm sent in the registration. And I'll buy into the sail development. Get the sails started. What do you need and when?

5? races:
Tradewinds
Performance Midwinters
Spring Fever
Round the Island
Performance Nationals
Steeplechase

I know i put six but this boat is a distance racer and a can racer. we need some of both to round out the challengers.

what other races make the cut? I'll go to more if the fleet shows up.

CC
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 12:30 PM

Quote
, a new mainsail will be developed no later than Q1 2012,


Seriously? 2 f'n years? Why can't we just start running the European ones made by Performance Sails? They look like they've had a little more developement than we get over here. Can't EP just get one of those and copy it to cut down on a HUGE amount of time? I'd like to keep my dollars in the US but not sure if I want to waite that long.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 01:09 PM

Lee,

The waiting period, is, as I have heard, to let people have time to "save up the coin" to buy these new sails when they come out and plan their sail replacement schedule.

Not everyone can drop $3k at a time for a whole new suit at once.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 01:10 PM

Dumb question here? But since you are forming your own class association, why not set up sail measurement rules, and then open up to all sailmakers? That is what we did with the Wave Class, and consequently have better sails, better sailmakers, and they cost less.
Rick
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 01:11 PM

We're not forming our own class association. We're getting a voting stake in the nacra board.

Its a bit different - but the idea of openning up the sailmakers would not be supported by Nacra.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 02:04 PM

Rick,
I agree with what you said but it seems the general consensus is that it would be the last nail in the coffin for the N20 class. I'm not really sure if I agree with that but I'm trying to be a team player with my buddies who race them as well.
I've been messing around with a different spinn and am just now getting the bugs worked out. I had one made that is the same dimensions as the N20 spinn but a more updated cut. At first I hated it. Not going to mention where I ran it. Next big race, we got a little better with it. Now it's pretty stretched out but flying very nicely. I have another season left in it I believe and will get another one made from the same guy but with a few small changes. Where we're running in a Nacra 20 class, I'll continue to run EP sails.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
the general consensus is that it would be the last nail in the coffin for the N20 class.

Really? Do you mean that more people would leave the class if there was a little more flexibility in the rules to allow owner choice while still preserving fundamentally equivalent performance within practical limits? I know strict SMOD is conceptually appealing, but if you look at the spectrum of variations allowed by different catamaran classes, more flexibility doesn't seem to have hurt participation in those with more relaxed rules. Am I misunderstanding your point?
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 03:11 PM

Going by history, this is what could happen. The P19 when Randy Smyth came out with the MX upgrade. The N5.8 going to the NA. The N6.0 adding chutes, ect.
Posted By: Keith

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
Going by history, this is what could happen. The P19 when Randy Smyth came out with the MX upgrade. The N5.8 going to the NA. The N6.0 adding chutes, ect.


Hmmm.

I'm with Rick. Especially if Nacra Europe has said there is little interest in the class anyway. They are interested in selling boats. A vibrant owner class that replaces the factory class should mean nothing to them if they are selling boats.

The boats mentioned above are interesting cases, but I think for a different reason - the updates came too late - the classes were already dead IMO, people had moved on. I therefore believe the changes failed to resurrect, which is different from killing in the first place. The lesson in my eyes is to stay on the curve or ahead, don't get behind as catching up is hard to do (just like racing).

As for developing sails at the schedule mentioned - is it wise to develop a main and jib on different time schedules? Given that all three sails are up off the wind (we don't put the jib away when the spin is up), is it wise to not develop the sail plan all at once? Will we end up with another compromise - the new main works with the old jib, so when the new jib comes along it has to work with a main that worked with the old jib, the new spin worked great with the old main and jib, but with the new, etc...

Sounds like I'm carping, just thinking out loud. I applaud the effort, will send in my $5 to help it happen, as it's better than we have. But I still think it might be best to ditch and go measurement. Nacra can supply sails that measure in, if they're good we'll buy them.
Posted By: Chris9

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 09:02 PM

I agree with -
Quote
The boats mentioned above are interesting cases, but I think for a different reason - the updates came too late - the classes were already dead IMO, people had moved on. I therefore believe the changes failed to resurrect, which is different from killing in the first place. The lesson in my eyes is to stay on the curve or ahead, don't get behind as catching up is hard to do (just like racing).


And this -
Quote
. But I still think it might be best to ditch and go measurement. Nacra can supply sails that measure in, if they're good we'll buy them.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Chris9
I agree with -
Quote
The boats mentioned above are interesting cases, but I think for a different reason - the updates came too late - the classes were already dead IMO, people had moved on. I therefore believe the changes failed to resurrect, which is different from killing in the first place. The lesson in my eyes is to stay on the curve or ahead, don't get behind as catching up is hard to do (just like racing).


And this -
Quote
. But I still think it might be best to ditch and go measurement. Nacra can supply sails that measure in, if they're good we'll buy them.


Unfortunately, it could be a matter of catch up already. I think it would be nice to get the new sails out sooner to avoid more loss, but something is better than nothing. I advocated opening up the sails and recieved a good amount of backlash. I even got Ding to show me how to measure in a set of sails at Spring fever (Thanks Ding) and it's a lot more to it than most realize. I honestly don't think many would go through with it. Because of this it would probably detract from the class even more.If the new sails that come out aren't cutting edge and just another design that shows no improvement, than I will once again advocate opening the sails and soft goods.By the time all of this is hashed out it may be too late or we may be back on a resurgence curve, only time will tell.
Todd Hart
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 10:10 PM

The question of whether it's too late for the N20 class is only resolved by an agreement among the class members as to the vision going forward.

You should look at the Viper 640 class for inspiration... The boat was given up for dead but a new rig was part of a clear vision and buy in from the sailors resulted in a big rebound centered around a great regatta circuit and now they have a full page add in Sailing World listing their major regattas!

How not to manage the future??? See those dead boats that you just listed....

Posted By: Keith

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/10/10 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Chris9
I agree with -
Quote
The boats mentioned above are interesting cases, but I think for a different reason - the updates came too late - the classes were already dead IMO, people had moved on. I therefore believe the changes failed to resurrect, which is different from killing in the first place. The lesson in my eyes is to stay on the curve or ahead, don't get behind as catching up is hard to do (just like racing).


And this -
Quote
. But I still think it might be best to ditch and go measurement. Nacra can supply sails that measure in, if they're good we'll buy them.


Unfortunately, it could be a matter of catch up already. I think it would be nice to get the new sails out sooner to avoid more loss, but something is better than nothing. I advocated opening up the sails and recieved a good amount of backlash. I even got Ding to show me how to measure in a set of sails at Spring fever (Thanks Ding) and it's a lot more to it than most realize. I honestly don't think many would go through with it. Because of this it would probably detract from the class even more.If the new sails that come out aren't cutting edge and just another design that shows no improvement, than I will once again advocate opening the sails and soft goods.By the time all of this is hashed out it may be too late or we may be back on a resurgence curve, only time will tell.
Todd Hart


I agree it may be too late.

But just a though on the measurement thing, however - the three fastest growing classes IMO are the A-Cat, F-16, and F-18. All require measured sails and measured boats. So I'm not sure which is worse - the hassle of measuring or everybody using sails that are assumed to be equal just because they have the appropriate sail maker's patch (either through quality control or "repairs").
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/11/10 02:15 AM

Couple of thoughts:

1) Measuring sails is a PITA, but it needs to be done to ensure fairness, if the sails are factory or not. If the class starts doing this before major events (Tybee, Nationals, Tradewinds, Spring Fever), we will seriously up the quality control from EP.

2) Opening up sail development won't work-there aren't enough sailors to warrant an additional manufacturer imo. I do think we should be able to use Performance Sails, if they measure in per 1. If the class starts growing (i.e, doubles in size), this may be a viable option.

3) Current Performance Sails, my understanding, don't fit our carbon rigs, i.e, they were built for the aluminum mast.

4) Parts: My personal opinion is open parts has no real negative effect. Enforce stock rudders, dagger boards, mast and sails, and open everything else up. This will have a positive effect in reducing the cost of parts, making it cheaper to go sailing, and Nacra has to keep quality up to keep us customers.

My biggest point is we should measure sails, even if they are supposedly all one design. In order to keep the N20 alive, we need to get new sails asap. The dates I listed are only no later than dates-EP can update the entire sailplane tomorrow, but that could exile many sailor who can't afford a new suite tomorrow. The other options available to current N20 owners are the following:

1) Buy a F18
2) Buy a F20

Who is seriously considering either of those options? The N20 with new sailplane should be faster than any F18 on any point of sail, and the F20 costs $30k and doesn't have an existing class. The only reason to go F18 is for the larger class, but if you want to distance race, the N20 is the real option (unless you are rich).
Posted By: Keith

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/11/10 05:57 AM

I think out of your two options listed what will happen is #1. It's already happening for distance racing.

With respect to the sails and other things, I worry about a price effective source of the masts. One bad launch day at Tybee and your boat could be an insurance write-off. Will performance support the alum or carbon stick with the new sails? Both? If we break a mast, what will our source of masts be?

The last price quote I heard for a new N-20 was also pushing the $30k mark (carbon mast contributing significantly?). Are we hoping for significant class rebirth so that new boats will be purchased, or are we just trading the old boats? Is anybody considering the purchase of a new N-20 (given the price comparison to the F-20)? A thing to ponder here is that by the time the new suite of sails is complete two things will have happened - 1) our boats will be several years older and 2) the f-18s will have advanced their sail plan by at least two iterations.
Posted By: wildtsail

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/11/10 12:11 PM

Sam, opening everything else besides rudders, daggers, mast, and sails.. what else is left? Parts? That would really piss Nacra off, more so than sails I think. And it's certainly not worth that risk over a few things. You can already make your own rigging.
What Keith said about F18s having developed sails two iterations is something to consider why open sails is so successful. For the most part, since the designs refined to current technology, changes in sail design have been so small that someone going out and buying the latest and greatest isn't a game breaker unless your at the very top of the fleet in which case your willing to part with that money if your competing at that level. But even so it's been a couple years or more since a sail like that has came out. It becomes a continuous cycle that is very advantagous to the life of the class.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/11/10 01:49 PM

Quote
It becomes a continuous cycle that is very advantagous to the life of the class.


I can't even count the number of manufacturers of the F18 on two hands.

I can count the number of manufacturers of the N20 on one finger.

The number of F18 sailors are 10-fold that of the N20.

The scale of the situation makes it different for the N20 in regards to sail development. I think you'd be hard pressed to get economies of competition by opening up the sail plan to all lofts when a lot of those lofts will be starting from scratch on sail development - and they'll likely need at least three different sail versions before a competition one is ready. With the chance that they would maybe sell a handful of those sails after they are developed - I don't know if a loft would be willing to put the R&D effort into an N20 sailplan that they would into a F18. We have a commitment from EP because they would be the only legal game in town.

I'm not OPPOSED to opening up the sail plan completely, but I don't think its fair to hold up the A-cat and F18 classes as comparable. I think that what others have mentioned - that if this does indeed lead to the resurgence of the class - then opening up the sail plan would be a definite possibility.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/11/10 01:52 PM

Quote
I think out of your two options listed what will happen is #1. It's already happening for distance racing.


http://www.tybee500.com/index.php?module=page&func=display&pageid=5

And there's another N20 that I know is doing the race that isn't on the list.

If the F18's are going to claim the distance moniker - then they at least need to show up at the premier distance event in NA.

And - if what you say is true about the prices being nearly the same on the N20 / F20, then we have a bigger problem than just sail plan development.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/11/10 02:02 PM

Keith, you said, 'the three fastest growing classes IMO are the A-Cat, F-16, and F-18. All require measured sails and measured boats." However you omitted the Wave.
On measuring, I might add, is not that big of a deal. We only measure new sails.., not for every regatta. That would be a real pain.
So, the sail is measured and recorded, and the tack area is signed by the measurer. From then on that sail is just fine.

Incidently, one of the main reasons we opened up the sails and set up measurements was the stock Hobie sails were coming in with as much as 8" difference on the luff length.

And no one in our class knocks the Hobie sails.., they have won the nationals many times.

The beauty of having other sailmakers involved is allowing design ideas to come into the class that might improve performance. And soon, the price of the sails will start getting lower -- it is called capitalism.., free market competition. It works.

I'll never forget when a guy showed up for my seminar just before the Nationals with a new design sail by Randy Smyth. Awesome.., and funny -- it was a deck sweeper!
Probably would have been pretty fast, but the guy couldn't get from one side of the boat to the other. He had to take it to a local sail loft and have all the extra foot cut off.
We did make changes to the measurement rules to be sure it didn't happen again. But, you see the really cool thing was the innovative thought in it all.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/11/10 02:45 PM

Quote
3) Current Performance Sails, my understanding, don't fit our carbon rigs, i.e, they were built for the aluminum mast.


Someone fed you some wrong info.

Quote
1) Measuring sails is a PITA, but it needs to be done to ensure fairness, if the sails are factory or not. If the class starts doing this before major events (Tybee, Nationals, Tradewinds, Spring Fever), we will seriously up the quality control from EP.


Please enlighten us as to how this will happen. So are you saying that if EP thinks we're going to start measuring them, they'll get scared and do a better job?
Posted By: Keith

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/11/10 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
I think out of your two options listed what will happen is #1. It's already happening for distance racing.


http://www.tybee500.com/index.php?module=page&func=display&pageid=5

And there's another N20 that I know is doing the race that isn't on the list.

If the F18's are going to claim the distance moniker - then they at least need to show up at the premier distance event in NA.

And - if what you say is true about the prices being nearly the same on the N20 / F20, then we have a bigger problem than just sail plan development.


Hadn't looked at this year's entry list (a painful thing to do if you can't make it...). My statement was based on last year, given their success at Tybee and GT. The boats can do it. Throw in the feeling of things at the Tybee awards ceremony. But, if they aren't showing up this year, then the premier races have a vested interest in the life of the N-20 class as well.

Last new price I heard for a N-20 was $27k, that was last year. Given that the last quote I heard for a carbon mast was $11k... If the $30k mentioned for the F20 is right, that's close enough to maybe cause issues.
Posted By: Keith

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/11/10 03:10 PM

Rick,
Sorry to omit the Wave. What I've seen buying new class sails for the N-20 is significant variation in the cut/luff of the spinnakers, and significant difference in the luff shape of the main.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/11/10 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by Keith
Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
I think out of your two options listed what will happen is #1. It's already happening for distance racing.


http://www.tybee500.com/index.php?module=page&func=display&pageid=5

And there's another N20 that I know is doing the race that isn't on the list.

If the F18's are going to claim the distance moniker - then they at least need to show up at the premier distance event in NA.

And - if what you say is true about the prices being nearly the same on the N20 / F20, then we have a bigger problem than just sail plan development.


Hadn't looked at this year's entry list (a painful thing to do if you can't make it...). My statement was based on last year, given their success at Tybee and GT. The boats can do it. Throw in the feeling of things at the Tybee awards ceremony. But, if they aren't showing up this year, then the premier races have a vested interest in the life of the N-20 class as well.

Last new price I heard for a N-20 was $27k, that was last year. Given that the last quote I heard for a carbon mast was $11k... If the $30k mentioned for the F20 is right, that's close enough to maybe cause issues.

Most recent prices I have heard were $6500 for the mast and 25k for carbon masted boat(less for aluminum masted boat). I also heard that the N-20 wasn't on the newest (at the time) pricelist. Maybe it was an oversight or maybe they aren't considering it in the inventory.Any dealers care to comment?
Posted By: catsailor2032

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 01:04 AM

hi i am in need of a set of i 20 daggerboards if you could help thanks
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 02:08 AM

That is basically what I am saying. Here are a couple of thoughts:

1) We should be measuring in sails before major events in the same manner as the F18's. This prevents people from buying a sail from their local sail maker, putting an EP logo on it and calling it a day. This also ensures we are getting equal cut sails from EP.

2) You CANNOT measure an old main against a new one and expect the sizes to be the same, this is Materials Science 101. However, two new mains in a one design class should be the same size within a tolerance. Also, I have personally seen variation in spinnaker cut, but to be fair, 3 out of 4 were within a 1/2", the other was much further off.

3) Europe has two different N20 sailplan's, excluding the Aluminum vs. Carbon mast debacle. I've heard the Performance Sails spinnaker hoist height is different from the EP's-this is ONLY word of mouth.

4) I have the prices on new N20 performance sails, and the bottom line is very favorable for EP given the current exchange rate. Most people are happy with EP's build quality, the prices are slightly high, but I can tell you that no one in the U.S is going to pay $700-$1000 more for a complete set of PS sails vs. EP sails

As far as new boats are concerned, its tough to grow the class when the top sailors aren't buying new boats. In all active classes, the top sailors are typically turning over boats once every 2 to 3 years; perhaps not because they absolutely need to, but if they sell the boat to someone they know will race it, they helped out the class significantly by adding a boat to the fleet. This isn't happening, as far as I can tell, in the N20 class. Part of this is the price; I'm not going to spend $25k on a new N20 when, for 3k more, I can have an all carbon F20, or for $5-10k LESS I can get an F18. The aluminum mast, however, is a real option and needs to be taken seriously by the class in order for growth to occur; if we don't accept the aluminum mast, people are going to write off there boats when they break the carbon mast, and people aren't going to buy new N20's with expensive carbon masts because the price doesn't make sense. I'm not suggesting the aluminum mast is tougher or necessarily faster than the carbon mast. I do believe it is more tunable, and the same sailor should be able to make it perform equally to the carbon rig.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 02:19 AM

. . . couple of thoughts to ponder, and I'm curious . . .
1) what ever has happened to the class membership drive from last year? here
2) are all class member's interests being considered? notifications? votes??
3) I was told that the aluminum rig will be certified this year and eligible to compete in the class. How does this play into this discussion?
4) how many new nacra 20's were delivered in the U.S. in the last year?
5) why the concern if an owner wants to buy a complete set of sails or not? Huh?
6) was defending N20 champions Alex and Nigel part of the 6 attending this meeting and their thoughts considered?

FWIW, I know that Alex sold his boat and they defended the championship on a chartered boat.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by samc99us


4) I have the prices on new N20 performance sails, and the bottom line is very favorable for EP given the current exchange rate. Most people are happy with EP's build quality, the prices are slightly high, but I can tell you that no one in the U.S is going to pay $700-$1000 more for a complete set of PS sails vs. EP sails

As far as new boats are concerned, its tough to grow the class when the top sailors aren't buying new boats. In all active classes, the top sailors are typically turning over boats once every 2 to 3 years; perhaps not because they absolutely need to, but if they sell the boat to someone they know will race it, they helped out the class significantly by adding a boat to the fleet. This isn't happening, as far as I can tell, in the N20 class. Part of this is the price; I'm not going to spend $25k on a new N20 when, for 3k more, I can have an all carbon F20, or for $5-10k LESS I can get an F18. The aluminum mast, however, is a real option and needs to be taken seriously by the class in order for growth to occur; if we don't accept the aluminum mast, people are going to write off there boats when they break the carbon mast, and people aren't going to buy new N20's with expensive carbon masts because the price doesn't make sense. I'm not suggesting the aluminum mast is tougher or necessarily faster than the carbon mast. I do believe it is more tunable, and the same sailor should be able to make it perform equally to the carbon rig.

Sam,
you've made some wide sweeping assumptions here, some folks might want to purchase the Performance Sails. He's making some awesome sails. . .

I've seen the aluminum rig, raced against it, have seen it get tuned up, talked at length with those sailing it. Fact, it's fast! and has seen a nice jump in development to the old rig. So, how is this going to affect the class?
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 02:32 AM

1) Not sure, but it doesn't matter unless people send their $5 in and register this year (per my original post)

2) This is the most active/vocal group available. We need to spread the word to other owners not online, and get them online.

3) See above. It's important because that means new sail shapes for the aluminum rig

4) Excellent question. Off hand it was 0, but that requires dealer confirmation.

5) The concern is exiling existing owners. If a new main and spinnaker were released at the same time, presumably both are faster than the old set. I would need to buy both to be competitive, at current retail price of $1800 for a main and $1300 for a spinnaker; $3100 is tougher to come by than $1300 one year and $1800 the next.

6) Alex and Nigel were both sailing F18's at spring fever. Nigel was fairly busy running around, as it is his event. We mostly kept the meeting for current boat owners, however, we should have included them as their opinion does matter.

Alex and Nigel being current champions brings up another interesting point; it is tough to say that they are the best N20 sailors out there. There are at least 2 other events, the Tybee 500 and Tradewinds, that could be used to say the same thing. That's whats great about this platform-it can do everything, and do it all very well, very fast, and not explode while mother nature rips it to shreds.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 02:36 AM

Philip,

You are absolutely correct that I am making some wide-sweeping assumptions. Please don't take this the wrong way; I am pushing Nacra Europe VERY hard to allow us to use Performance Sails (they exist for the platform so why not use them?) At the same time, I don't want to make EP go out of business or completely kill his sail line as they are also very nice sails, and his customer support has been nothing but fantastic to me and most of the people I sail with. I will also state, for the record, that I cannot afford a set of PS at the price premium they are currently commanding.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 02:36 AM

Originally Posted by samc99us


Alex and Nigel being current champions


They have also played an important part of all things Nacra.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 02:38 AM

I keep posting in between your post and miss your last reply. Sorry. BTW, I'm a big fan of EP and Skip.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 02:49 AM

Not a big deal, good to keep the conversation going. Not really sure how to get Nigel and Alex interested, they seem to have already switched to the F18 class and only sail the N20 when they want. I think we would all love some hard FACTS from dealers concerning aluminum masts, boat sales, new boat prices etc.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by samc99us


Alex and Nigel being current champions


They have also played an important part of all things Nacra.


I don't believe they are N-20 owners anymore.
Posted By: Nimrod

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 03:11 AM

Being a third party observer and not haveing a dog in this hunt, am I understanding the NACRA factory is not supporting the Inter/Nacra 20 class?

Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 03:18 AM

Incorrect. They are still completely supporting the N20. We are lobbying them for an updated sail plane, through the factory. Please read my first post in this thread.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by samc99us
1)
5) The concern is exiling existing owners. If a new main and spinnaker were released at the same time, presumably both are faster than the old set. I would need to buy both to be competitive, at current retail price of $1800 for a main and $1300 for a spinnaker; $3100 is tougher to come by than $1300 one year and $1800 the next.

I think this is a weak argument. If someone can't afford the sails at the same time ,they wait. No sense in punishing the rest of the class. If you can't afford to be competitive in a class(Upgrades,sails,etc.)then maybe a more affordable class is the way to go, not dragging the class down also. Most likely if you aren't spending the money to be competitive,in any class ,you're not competitive.Slowing down or inhibiting sail growth either by release times or restrictions to a single sailmaker is not going to change your seriousness or competitiveness.You WILL be competive with those with the same commitment as you. Harsh,but true,Sorry. This is an argument that I've heard for years, so this isn't directed to Sam or anyone else specifically. Those that know me ,know I've always been behind the financial curve, so it's not like I can outspend anyone,but if new sails or anything else are a priority, I find a way to make it happen, or I wait/save until I can do what I need. I'd love to own a new F20 but I don't expect the company to hold release of the boat until I can "afford" it.
I'll probably wait on the new spin until the main comes out anyway(if that's the way they have to do it) so I have all new sails at the same time. less doubts that way.
Todd
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by samc99us
2) This is the most active/vocal group available.

In what sense? There are nine boats in CRAW alone.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


I don't believe they are N-20 owners anymore.

I covered that in my previous post. Tawd, were you one of the six? Your opinion matters.
What's the current membership count that you championed last year?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 03:47 AM

Yes I was.
Over 50,(owners, not members) I can look it up exactly. I gave the info to Trey, and he will do something with it,database wise. He's been busy with paying work.If someone wanted to step up and run with it I think he'd be OK with that ,and I certainly would welcome anyone to start a communication line amongst owners.We had hoped the N-20 site(that Trey and Tad built) would have helped lay the groundwork for that,but it never seemed to take off.Maybe an Email list or something is the way to go.
Todd
p.s.Phillip, I know I owe you a call, I'll try tomorrow.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by MarkMT
Originally Posted by samc99us
2) This is the most active/vocal group available.

In what sense? There are nine boats in CRAW alone.


I think the operative word there is VOCAL not "active".
Sam, there are active fleets besides the one you know of. CRAW and San Diego for sure.

Posted By: TeamChums

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 12:45 PM

Ok, I see Sam99 posting the words "I" continuously when referring to pushing for changes. Who is he? He posts no name at the bottom of his posts. Is he someone we all agreed on as a spokes person for us. As far as I can tell, his keyboard may be outrunning his knowledge of the N20 facts. How long has he been sailing on one? Did he just get one and become an authority on the class now?
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
Ok, I see Sam99 posting the words "I" continuously when referring to pushing for changes. Who is he? He posts no name at the bottom of his posts. Is he someone we all agreed on as a spokes person for us. As far as I can tell, his keyboard may be outrunning his knowledge of the N20 facts. How long has he been sailing on one? Did he just get one and become an authority on the class now?


That's good. Let's start attacking each other now. Let's ramp up this to a full fledged crap fight!

Sam is relatively new to the class but has a lot of valuable energy....and they're already pretty hot around the race course.

Let's talk more solutions and less complaints please.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 01:19 PM

Sam is a young guy who got his boat a year ago and is sailing in The T500 under us this year. He's got a youthful know-it-all-ism that reminds me of me when I first got my H17 and thought I knew it all.

He is enthusiastic though and a pretty smart cookie when it comes to engineering type things. He might be off-base one some of his opinions or on the historical records of fact but his enthusiasm for the boat and class shouldn't be squelched just because his opinions might not be shared by the rest of the group.

Its fairly evident that we all have different ideas about how to handle this sail update. There are some that want to open it up completely. Some that want to open it up to only EP but have it happen "overnight" and then there are those that want a phased-in period.

Are there any groups out there that DONT want the sails to change?
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 01:44 PM

Didnt mean anything bad, I just wanted to know if it were someone I knew already and didnt recognize the name.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 01:57 PM

This is why I'm in favor of a phased-in schedule of sail plan updates.

I don't want to face the fact that overnight, my boat would be uncompetitive unless I spent (doing the maths in me head, $1700 for a new main, $1500 for spin, $800 for jib??) $4000 in a single check. I could pay off my truck for that much. Spending that much at once on sailboat racing doesn't make sense for me.

I suspect that I'm not the only one that has this opinion. I think that if you invalidate those of us who aren't willing to cut a huge check in one fell swoop, the class competition would suffer. I say this, realizing that there ARE people that I would be racing against (if I decide to race again) that would happily cut a check and get the new fast sails.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 02:02 PM

btw,

The nacra 20 class site has been pretty inactive - probably because people don't want to have to go to yet ANOTHER website to get their discussion.

I could setup a mailing list which would be a more passive way of getting class discussion. If you guys think that would be effective (and be used) then we can do that.
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
This is why I'm in favor of a phased-in schedule of sail plan updates.

I don't want to face the fact that overnight, my boat would be uncompetitive unless I spent (doing the maths in me head, $1700 for a new main, $1500 for spin, $800 for jib??) $4000 in a single check. I could pay off my truck for that much. Spending that much at once on sailboat racing doesn't make sense for me.

I suspect that I'm not the only one that has this opinion. I think that if you invalidate those of us who aren't willing to cut a huge check in one fell swoop, the class competition would suffer. I say this, realizing that there ARE people that I would be racing against (if I decide to race again) that would happily cut a check and get the new fast sails.


I can pretty much guarantee that the development will not happen all at once. Spin, main, then jib, that's the way it'll have to be in order for this to move forward. Additionally, these things take time. Are you going to fund the R&D for all 3 sails at once?

Let's continue with what we've gotten so far as a concession--> developing the spinnaker to be released NO LATER THAN Q1 2011.
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 02:42 PM

I like where we're heading. I think the main is the big zinger that really kills performance around the cans but the spinnaker is probably one of the more limiting items in distance racing. The spinnaker is a little less expensive than the main so it's probably a good jumping off point.

I don't think we've seen another SMOD class go through a similar sail development cycle. You have a lot of extremes on either end - static NEVER changing single manufacturer sail platform and an open development open manufacturer sail platform. I think this is a nice controlled step forward and appreciate the effort the guys have put into this so far (sorry I couldn't make the meeting on Friday evening).

The single biggest thing that will help this class is activity through public discussion and racing. New found performance that evolves in a controlled fashion should hopefully shore up the foundation. From the Nacra standpoint, I don't think many of us here are thinking even remotely seriously about buying a new 20 footer that's 10 feet wide so they might as well help us keep the spare parts flow for the 20 alive.
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by NCSUtrey
Originally Posted by Undecided
This is why I'm in favor of a phased-in schedule of sail plan updates.

I don't want to face the fact that overnight, my boat would be uncompetitive unless I spent (doing the maths in me head, $1700 for a new main, $1500 for spin, $800 for jib??) $4000 in a single check. I could pay off my truck for that much. Spending that much at once on sailboat racing doesn't make sense for me.

I suspect that I'm not the only one that has this opinion. I think that if you invalidate those of us who aren't willing to cut a huge check in one fell swoop, the class competition would suffer. I say this, realizing that there ARE people that I would be racing against (if I decide to race again) that would happily cut a check and get the new fast sails.


I can pretty much guarantee that the development will not happen all at once. Spin, main, then jib, that's the way it'll have to be in order for this to move forward. Additionally, these things take time. Are you going to fund the R&D for all 3 sails at once?

Let's continue with what we've gotten so far as a concession--> developing the spinnaker to be released NO LATER THAN Q1 2011.


And I say this for several reasons:

I'm not on the Nacra board, but I am the N20 class representative. In order for this to move forward with the class association, we have to play by the rules. Part of those rules are a stepped roll-out for the development. This isn't a fight with the factory/etc, it's just growing pains.

We'll get to where we're headed, just not overnight.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 04:38 PM

I apologize if I come off strongly as a know-it-all type etc., I have a passion for this sport and would like to see this class grow, because the N20 is one of the best sailing boats I've ever had the opportunity to drive. And no, I don't know all things Nacra by any means, have fought some battles (Performance Sails) that have been fought before and lost; I am learning the hard way and perhaps the time consuming way but I am learning. You are free to find out who I really am-my sail number is at the bottom of all my posts and I competed in Tradewinds and Spring Fever this year; those results are all online.

As far as class spokesperson, I was simply reiterating what was discussed at the meeting; when I emphasize "I" in a post it is to emphasize that it is my opinion, not necessarily those of the class or other's. Trey is technically the N20 class representative, as the somewhat self-appointed class director. I honestly have no beef with this, Trey has more contacts in the industry than most, has been campaigning N20's for a good while and most of his advice is generally sound. If we go tearing each other up, we look like a bunch of fools with no plan to get things done.

Todd, you are correct that I am unaware of who is sailing in CRAW or San Diego, but I am aware of those groups of N20 sailors. My main point was to get those sailors involved, either through catsailor, or personal conversations.

Trey is absolutely correct with the rollout plan; there is not much we can do to force Nacra to a faster time line, perhaps they will be generous and develop the main and jib at the same time. Lets be glad they are willing to do SOMETHING to get the boat speed up above the F18's, where our rating sits.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 06:46 PM

Was I on your boat for one race Saturday at Tradewinds?

I liked the wing masts on the F-16 and I think it would improve performance on a 20 footer.

Not sure if carbon or aluminum would be better material.. Carbon for uniformity, aluminum for price. Maybe when the price of carbon drops back to reasonable levels....

It would seem that the consensus is to tweak the main for better can racing, and the spin for higher reaching angles on distance.

Would one detract from the other (slower on downwind in the can races, for example)?

Do you think Performance handled the rudder design changes appropriately? Should they follow the same strategy for sailplan changes?

I'd like to see that rear beam come up about 2" personally...
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 06:48 PM

Jay

No, you sailed with Bailey. Not Sam. And it was my boat you were on.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 06:49 PM

As someone that has been around this class for a while I do think we have to be careful to be more inclusive of all parties. We have sigificant fleets around the country. We can't serve the distance fleet or the bouy fleet. We have to serve them both equally.

As a guy who just purchased a new main I don't want to see a new cut show up at Nationals when I arrive in Racine. I think we have to be very clear on when these sails will become available for regular regattas and when they will be allowed for use at Nationals/Tybee/Midwinters?

I also believe that we need to keep the work with Elliot only as we don't have much in the way of quantity. Skip has been great to work with over the years and always handled things quickly and professionally.

We need a good line of communication to the sailors that own boats. We need to communicate what is happening on at least a bi/monthly newsletter sent by email and perhaps posted to a website. It doesn't have to be fancy just a letter stating what the plans are and what votes have been made.

I agree that the main needs work and the spin needs work. I don't want to see them roll out with new designs every year though because that starts an arms race.

Personally I don't think the F18's have gotten that much faster. They've always been this fast. I think the people sailing them have gotten better/faster. Case in point is Mischa on a Tiger for the Tybee. He seemed to go pretty well on the (old) design.

Posted By: John Williams

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 06:52 PM

Those were not Tiger sails, Mike. The sail development has marched forward quite a bit in the F18 lofts.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Jay

No, you sailed with Bailey. Not Sam. And it was my boat you were on.


That's what I thought. Just trying to put a name to a face on this gentleman.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I'd like to see that rear beam come up about 2" personally...


I'd like to see the mast about 10' - 15' shorter.. or more.. (like the spin pole at the tybee a few years back).. then maybe i could race and win.. smile
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Hill
As someone that has been around this class for a while I do think we have to be careful to be more inclusive of all parties. We have sigificant fleets around the country. We can't serve the distance fleet or the bouy fleet. We have to serve them both equally.

As a guy who just purchased a new main I don't want to see a new cut show up at Nationals when I arrive in Racine. I think we have to be very clear on when these sails will become available for regular regattas and when they will be allowed for use at Nationals/Tybee/Midwinters?

I also believe that we need to keep the work with Elliot only as we don't have much in the way of quantity. Skip has been great to work with over the years and always handled things quickly and professionally.

We need a good line of communication to the sailors that own boats. We need to communicate what is happening on at least a bi/monthly newsletter sent by email and perhaps posted to a website. It doesn't have to be fancy just a letter stating what the plans are and what votes have been made.

I agree that the main needs work and the spin needs work. I don't want to see them roll out with new designs every year though because that starts an arms race.

Personally I don't think the F18's have gotten that much faster. They've always been this fast. I think the people sailing them have gotten better/faster. Case in point is Mischa on a Tiger for the Tybee. He seemed to go pretty well on the (old) design.



I sailed F18 for three years starting about the second generation cycle (when the Nacra F18 came out). I can attest that the sails on the F18 platforms have evolved a great deal since then. They're much flatter today just about everywhere. In general, the F18's have increased their platform speed potential since '05 but it's been a nice gradual evolution that everyone seems to be able to keep pace with.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 07:54 PM

Quote
Those were not Tiger sails, Mike. The sail development has marched forward quite a bit in the F18 lofts.


Excactly. The spinn was a new Wildcat spinn. I looked at the main, it was a Zuccoli. Nevertheless, he probably would have had the same results with regular Tiger sails anyway.
Bottom line is, it seems we are getting somewhere with the sailplan. I'm not sure where any resistance is comming from Performance Sails. I contacted them last fall about sails for my N20 and Peter was more than helpful with getting me prices in US dollars. As the rules read now, we can use them. If Skip Elliot has a new design, I would rather use him. For the record, the sail cloth Elliot uses for the main is second to none. The longevity can't be beat. My number 1 main is 4 years old and still is in outstanding shape. I've done 3 GT300's and 2 Tybee's with it and plan on using it again this year.
Posted By: macca

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 09:10 PM

I like the idea of keeping the N20 class viable, we have the N5.8 in Aus still going strong and it fills a need and I hope it last a long time too.

But I am curious... Why wouldn't you consider the F20 because its wide?? It can't be the trailering (much easier to drive with the boat on the tilt, vision is better and you take up less road width)

so, whats the issue apart from it's different?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by macca
I like the idea of keeping the N20 class viable, we have the N5.8 in Aus still going strong and it fills a need and I hope it last a long time too.

But I am curious... Why wouldn't you consider the F20 because its wide?? It can't be the trailering (much easier to drive with the boat on the tilt, vision is better and you take up less road width)

so, whats the issue apart from it's different?


I think for most it's the money. It is for me.
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/12/10 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by macca
I like the idea of keeping the N20 class viable, we have the N5.8 in Aus still going strong and it fills a need and I hope it last a long time too.

But I am curious... Why wouldn't you consider the F20 because its wide?? It can't be the trailering (much easier to drive with the boat on the tilt, vision is better and you take up less road width)

so, whats the issue apart from it's different?


I think for most it's the money. It is for me.


Likewise. I could live with the width - but I can't justify a new 20 footer at today's prices (even the regular 20).
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 12:07 AM

Personally, I would really like to get one after I get my house finished. The biggest "NO" factor would be that there would be no one to race against. I've only seen two M20's. I just don't see a strong class emerging with that boat (if any class at all).
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 01:01 AM

Lee. buy 6. I bet you can find skippers to race here. smile
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 01:10 AM

Price is the big thing for me too. I just can't justify spending more on a beachcat than I did on a brand new SUV to pull it.
Posted By: Keith

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 01:14 AM

We're a sorry lot. Check the prices on the new 20' mono sport boats. People are buying them...
Posted By: Keith

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 02:05 AM

Ok, a few up front questions, sorry if this comes off wrong, but I find exercises like this to be helpful at times. Maybe we'll like the answers, maybe not. I've stuck my thoughts with the questions.

What's our goal in this whole thing? What do we want to accomplish for the N-20 class?

It seems we all want an updated sail plan, but why?

Simply because we want sails that compare to the F-18 (pissed that they beat us)? (my opinion - That's a moving target the current plan won't hit)

Just want a more up to date sail plan, don't care if it compares to the F-18? (my opinion - We're on track here)

Just want better consistency to the cut of the sails available now? (my opinion - Don't change a thing, just ask for more consistency and don't have sail lust when on another class boat)

Answer the above list, and be honest.

Now, what do we want the N-20 class to be?

Top dog 20' class? (my opinion - It isn't anymore, that's the F-20. It's never going to compete as the top boat anymore, unless we really open development.)

Top dog distance racing class? (my opinion - Almost, until the F-20s find a way in)

Formula boat? (my opinion - It's not a formula class, so it will never go head to head with the F-18s or A-Cats for new tech. Unless we take the class effort one step forward and try to set up US Formula 20 class again.)

A decent 20' foot class with available used boats as an alternative to F-20s, or non-spin 20' classes? (my opinion - Closest fit, but may leave some unsatisfied and may not attract the folks who would be interested in buying new boats. What does this offer that F-18 does not?)

Why do we want to save the class, why not get Chuck to make the F-20 the new boat and give it traction? (my opinion - don't know, maybe I don't like owning two dead boat class boats, but Tybee in F-20s sounds like fun...)

Setting our expectations for what we want the class to be will help us be happier with the sail plan decisions. Anybody ask the perspective of the NE guys on their decision to dump the 20 footers and go F-18 (not from a why we should dump the class perspective, but from a what they were looking for perspective)?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 02:13 AM

Keith:

I want to be able to beat the F18's on a distance race time on time regardless of the wind direction.

If the N20 doesn't fill the distance king niche then its doomed to become the training boat for soon-to-be F18 teams.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 02:23 AM

Quote
We're a sorry lot. Check the prices on the new 20' mono sport boats. People are buying them...


The whole reason I got into Multi's was because I could go faster than the lead-haulers for a fraction of the price!

Once the wife and I become a DINK couple then I can seriously consider getting a F20 - but it doesn't help that Nacra US wont even tell its dealers how much one in the US would cost!!
Posted By: Keith

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Keith:

I want to be able to beat the F18's on a distance race time on time regardless of the wind direction.

If the N20 doesn't fill the distance king niche then its doomed to become the training boat for soon-to-be F18 teams.


My opinion again - if the F-18 is the yardstick then we need a measurement rule for the sails. The sails and the hulls are updating on those boats, if we're on a multi-year plan to just get one iteration of sail plan...

Does your scenario include or exclude the possible arrival of the F-20 on the US distance scene? What would make the N-20 better than the F-20 in off-the-beach and on-the-beach sailing? Will the F-20 come on the scene just as the new current plan sails are complete? Is distance racing the objective? Do we not care so much about buoys? Do we just start a distance class and run different sails?

Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 02:41 AM

Nobody can know what the F20 is going to do to the class. I don't know how many we'll see over here - so trying to figure out what its going to do to the class is like throwing darts in the dark IMO.

I think that the "moving yardstick" analogy is fair - however, the F18 is what we compete against as far as crew weight and boat "niche" is concerned. If we don't at least try to remain relevant in regards to sail design, then I think we've already consigned our boat to the DBS.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 03:13 AM

Tad, why in the world are you setting a different class as your benchmark?? You want to be able to beat an F18? No sweat - you have two options. Get an F18 driver who is a mid-fleeter or start sailing a lot more.

Keith is onto something - you guys need to agree on just what you're after. Right now I see a bunch of blind guys groping an elephant.
Posted By: Keith

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Tad, why in the world are you setting a different class as your benchmark?? You want to be able to beat an F18? No sweat - you have two options. Get an F18 driver who is a mid-fleeter or start sailing a lot more.

Keith is onto something - you guys need to agree on just what you're after. Right now I see a bunch of blind guys groping an elephant.


+1 I meant to add that option earlier - sail faster!

I'm exercising extreme restraint in not making "groping an elephant" jokes...
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 03:29 AM

I've got a boat.

It's a nice boat

It's a really durable boat

It goes fast and it likes big ocean.

The boat is still relatively modern...except the sails.

I would like newly designed sails for my boat.


(there's my logic).
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 12:11 PM

John: Because unless the N20 can beat the F18 boat for boat on a distance course, the N20 is superfluous in the lineup of competition beach catamarans and the F18 class will continue to steal sailors from our class like it has been doing over the past couple years.

Posted By: pgp

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 12:20 PM

smile Good morning all!
Posted By: John Williams

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 12:21 PM

Wow. I can't tell you how many times my friend Tad has refuted that by talking about how the N20 is THE boat for the big boys. And it drives better. And it is much harder to pitch. Seriously, there are a ton of reasons the boat is just fine as-is without any changes at all. Wanting the builder to make some sailshape mods like Jake is describing is perfectly legitimate if the class decides to ask for them (which it sounds like it has already). But this is the first time I've heard the "I want to be the scratch boat" thing. Like I said, you guys need to listen to Keith and get together on goals. I don't think it is good to base decisions on a different class' performance, though - just my opinion.
Posted By: Keith

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
John: Because unless the N20 can beat the F18 boat for boat on a distance course, the N20 is superfluous in the lineup of competition beach catamarans and the F18 class will continue to steal sailors from our class like it has been doing over the past couple years.



OK, sounds like the goal is beating F-18s in distance racing. If this is the goal, then my opinion is create a measurement rule based on the current sails and open the manufacturers now. You'll get improvements in cut and shape that will help get what you want, and you won't have to wait years to get it. If the measurement rule is based on the current sails, then the current sails will be viable (for mid-pack at least) for most sailors until they can afford their next set. If this runs afoul of the Nacra OD class association, then again I would form a distance racing class for this purpose. Sounds like most are interested in the boat for distance racing anyway.
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Wow. I can't tell you how many times my friend Tad has refuted that by talking about how the N20 is THE boat for the big boys. And it drives better. And it is much harder to pitch. Seriously, there are a ton of reasons the boat is just fine as-is without any changes at all. Wanting the builder to make some sailshape mods like Jake is describing is perfectly legitimate if the class decides to ask for them (which it sounds like it has already). But this is the first time I've heard the "I want to be the scratch boat" thing. Like I said, you guys need to listen to Keith and get together on goals. I don't think it is good to base decisions on a different class' performance, though - just my opinion.


Agreed. I want my boat to handle better and be more manageable through a more efficient sailplan. Some additional speed (to weather mostly) would be a nice plus. Don't get caught up in this F18 boat for boat thing. Besides being a fruitless fight due to two incredibly different class development policies, it only serves to start kicking dirt at the other and draw a thicker more aggressively defended "party line". The N20 won't win that one. Know our place. It's a big powerful well balanced boat that is great in the ocean and is more forgiving to beefier crews. It is not an F18 killer.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Wow. I can't tell you how many times my friend Tad has refuted that by talking about how the N20 is THE boat for the big boys. And it drives better. And it is much harder to pitch. Seriously, there are a ton of reasons the boat is just fine as-is without any changes at all. Wanting the builder to make some sailshape mods like Jake is describing is perfectly legitimate if the class decides to ask for them (which it sounds like it has already). But this is the first time I've heard the "I want to be the scratch boat" thing. Like I said, you guys need to listen to Keith and get together on goals. I don't think it is good to base decisions on a different class' performance, though - just my opinion.


With all due respect JW, the reasons WHY we want an updated sail plan can all be different. What we all want is ... an updated sail plan. (I certainly haven't heard anyone say that they want to keep what we've got in this thread or in person)

Openning up the sails to every loft under the sun wont work IMO for reasons I've already stated.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by John Williams
Wow. I can't tell you how many times my friend Tad has refuted that by talking about how the N20 is THE boat for the big boys. And it drives better. And it is much harder to pitch. Seriously, there are a ton of reasons the boat is just fine as-is without any changes at all. Wanting the builder to make some sailshape mods like Jake is describing is perfectly legitimate if the class decides to ask for them (which it sounds like it has already). But this is the first time I've heard the "I want to be the scratch boat" thing. Like I said, you guys need to listen to Keith and get together on goals. I don't think it is good to base decisions on a different class' performance, though - just my opinion.


Agreed. I want my boat to handle better and be more manageable through a more efficient sailplan. Some additional speed (to weather mostly) would be a nice plus. Don't get caught up in this F18 boat for boat thing. Besides being a fruitless fight due to two incredibly different class development policies, it only serves to start kicking dirt at the other and draw a thicker more aggressively defended "party line". The N20 won't win that one. Know our place. It's a big powerful well balanced boat that is great in the ocean and is more forgiving to beefier crews. It is not an F18 killer.


Incredibly well said Jake, even though it may hurt a little.

How about this for a reason.Compare an F18 DPN with a N20 DPN , there's a problem here.If the f18s are faster boats why don't corrections reflect this?
Hence, the reason I would like a new sail design is to maximize the potential the platform has(through expendable goods) and give it a better chance of sailing to it's number.

p.s. But don't get the thought that I like getting beat by a 2 foot shorter boat(any boat). I don't.
Posted By: Chris9

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 02:18 PM

Quote
Compare an F18 DPN with a N20 DPN , there's a problem here.If the f18s are faster boats why don't corrections reflect this


Are F18s faster around a bouys course or just better broad or close reaching in a distance race? I'm guessing that many of the results that are used for the hadicap system are or were based on bouys racing, which probably really is limited data.
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 02:33 PM

I don't believe that the portsmouth data is "limited" but is, instead, focused on a particular type of racing (not distance). Which is why it's kind of a crap shoot to use it for distance racing.
Posted By: Chris9

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 02:47 PM

what I was thinking and you said it better, thanks.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 03:20 PM

I like(ed) the boat for several reasons:


  • Good overall design
  • Decent amount of boats out there with sailors who use them. A bonus is having top talent out and about to provide benchmark performance levels and help out with on-water advice ( I think this is the key to any class being successful over the long haul)
  • Construction is a decent blend of performance and durability. It ain't bulletproof like the old solid-fiberglass bricks of the 80's, and it's not a super high-tech featherweight like the Acat which dings if you look at it funny
  • The ability to sail with as few or as many "tweeks" as you like. Not as complicated as all of the stuff you can tweek on a Star (for example), but more adjustability than a Laser.
  • Reasonably forgiving to middle-fleet sailors who like the performance but don't really have the talent to drive much more than a sheet of plywood
  • Somewhat based on one-design concept so I don't have to continually update the platform if I want to get closer to the top end of the fleet. I don't necessarily agree with SMOD, but I do like the one-design concept theory
  • Cost to get into the class isn't exhorbitant, although since the boats do seem to last a long time despite hard use, it's difficult to find a lot of used boats out there. They do hold their resale value pretty well, too.



So, I think to grow the class we need to retain these factors and adapt the platform to retain top level talent. Would improving the sailplan achieve this while not entirely alienating the "restofus"?

Flatter sails and a wing mast... would this improve performance across the wide range of conditions we sail in, Or would this type of thing actually narrow the performance window? Would it require more expertise to tune the sailplan correctly for the conditions? This could further frustrate mid-pack sailors (or give them more excuses)

I know that I sailed both light (325 soaking wet) and heavy (400+ before breakfast)with the same sailplan, and thought I was reasonably competitive under most moderate conditions (8-20 kts TWS and low-moderate chop) using the adjustments available on the platform.

In 95% of the regattas it wasn't the boat's fault that we ended up where we did in the finish list.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 03:26 PM

I wasn't trying to start a portsmouth discussion, we all know it sucks for distance. My point was on a rated course the 18 is rated slower but doesn't appear to be. This is directed at the sailplan of the boats not the validity of the numbers compared to what type of racing.
2 feet of waterline is a huge advantage that doesn't seem to be anymore. I don't believe the hullform is so outdated, as a 12 year old sailplan in a 12 years of progressive sail development. The F-18 to me is a benchmark, it has great numbers and many of the sailors on F18s I have raced against on N20s, therefore I know how they do on both boats. I firmly believe a 2 foot longer boat should be faster than a similar type boat. With the different hullforms in F18 alone, I think ,Through process of elimination it points to the sails on the N20 as being the weak link.Most of what I'm comparing is the infusion to the N20,because that's mostly what I've raced against.The hullshape is definitely better on the infusion ,but not to the extent of the performance differences I've seen.This says sails to me.

Again this is not a portsmouth debate or a shitslinging match with F18s. I JUST USE THE f18 AS A BENCHMARK BECAUSE IT'S A VERY GOOD ONE TO USE.

This is just my opinion. You didn't pay for it and you got your money's worth.
The Todd
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 03:30 PM

Quote
This is just my opinion. You didn't pay for it and you got your money's worth.


I tried to get a refund at Walmart. They told me that they don't sell rubbish :P

Quote
The Todd


Who called you this? I need to slap them.


.
.
Todd and I have similar thoughts here.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 03:51 PM

I still feel that you're doubling-down on a tenuous premise. F18s are doing better against N20s around the cans for two reasons, IMO; In order - firstly, the F18s are working harder. More teams are getting coaching and coordinating event attendance, tuning tips, and practice. This is very stark in SoCal. A very distant second, the F18 sails are moving forward in design. There have been three new sail developments on my boat since 2006. That isn't pell-mell at all - it is a pretty measured pace.

Bottom line, I think that the F18 number will drop a little whenever the Portsmouth Committee is reconstituted, and the N20 number will stay static. But I think there is too much emphasis here on performance between the two classes and the N20 sails when deciding priorities for the future of the class. There is a tremendous distance between wanting some modernization for the health of the class and wanting to beat a completely different boat across the line. And which F18 are you going to chase? They each have their quirks, strong points and weaknesses...

I'm sure Trey is muttering about "skin in the game" again... honestly, I continue to want to see all cat classes thrive and I would never speak up unless I thought it were important to reconsider the line of reasoning.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 04:12 PM

JDub,

Like I said - it matter not what the REASON for the requested change is. People in the class all want an updated sail plan for one reason or another.

And "skin in the game" is applicable here. You long ago abandoned the N20 class for the F18.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 04:20 PM

It does indeed matter what the reason is, as that should dictate how and what changes are made. You presented a whole new reason today that I'd not heard before - the way to achieve what you want is very different than what Jake said he wants, even though the sail plan is a common denominator.

I'm a multihull sailor. I have more skin in the game than you.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
There is a tremendous distance between wanting some modernization for the health of the class and wanting to beat a completely different boat across the line. And which F18 are you going to chase? They each have their quirks, strong points and weaknesses...

J-dub,
You need to read my post previous to this.It answered a bunch of your questions.
As far as the health of the class, beating the F-18s IS what is needed, that's where we are loosing class members.No need to dance around it, but I still see the F18 as the closest benchmark to work towards.
JW ,you and I will never agree on this because I'm as passionate about the N20 as you are F18.I still love ya.

Is Tad that guy that moaped around Hartwell for 20 minutes Sunday afternoon? I thought that Thadeus guy actually sailed occasionally.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
It does indeed matter what the reason is, as that should dictate how and what changes are made. You presented a whole new reason today that I'd not heard before - the way to achieve what you want is very different than what Jake said he wants, even though the sail plan is a common denominator.

I'm a multihull sailor. I have more skin in the game than you.

J-dub your right about the different approaches.
The funny thing is the way to achieve what Tad want's is to do what he and his team doesn't want to do. Open up the sails.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 04:26 PM

Just offering my opinion, which like yours can't be found at WalMart. If the Class feels it has covered the angles, then "good onya."
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 04:32 PM

I'm not going to reply to you any further JDub. No offense, but this is not a matter in which I think non-N20 sailors should be stirring the pot.

Keith on the other hand, has some very good questions and I think that he should expand on his thoughts. Unfortunately opening up the sail plan completely I don't think would work very well like it has in the most established formula classes - BUT I'm willing to listen to his proposals.

What I WOULD be interested is a genuine bonefide sailmaker chiming in here and giving us some estimates on what he expects a sail development program would cost, and what he would stand to make in the market if we were to try and open it up completely.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Keith on the other hand, has some very good questions and I think that he should expand on his thoughts.


That's all I'm sayin'.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Just offering my opinion, which like yours can't be found at WalMart. If the Class feels it has covered the angles, then "good onya."

Unfortunately, you can't really cover all the angles.
I see 3or 4 camps in this debate: Those that want to drag out the process to make it affordable. Those that want as fast a platform as possible now.(me)
And then you get the distance/buoys question on top.
I don't think everyone can/could or will be completely happy.As Keith or Jake said earlier, if beating the F18 is the goal a stepped roll out of SMOD sails won't work because your using a fixed solution to try to beat a ongoing development.
All of this is semantics anyway, You'll never get a consensus to open the sails up unless the factory does something drastically bad to force the issue, which would be counterproductive for them.
So basically a stepped rollout is what we get. If that doesn't get me where I want to be I'll get my sails where I want ,put in curved foils,make wider carbon beams and get a Hall mast and race Portsmouth. Easy Peasy lemon squeezy.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
I'm not going to reply to you any further JDub. No offense, but this is not a matter in which I think non-N20 sailors should be stirring the pot.

Keith on the other hand, has some very good questions and I think that he should expand on his thoughts. Unfortunately opening up the sail plan completely I don't think would work very well like it has in the most established formula classes - BUT I'm willing to listen to his proposals.

What I WOULD be interested is a genuine bonefide sailmaker chiming in here and giving us some estimates on what he expects a sail development program would cost, and what he would stand to make in the market if we were to try and open it up completely.


Speak for yourself, I think JW's input is good.
I also think Keith has some great points but it is not going to be possible to satisfy everyone.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 04:49 PM

And if you build that beast, where does all your passion for the Class go, Todd? When Smith started down that path, he took a lot of criticism - no matter what his motivation, it wasn't good to see those fractures among N20 teams.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 05:02 PM

Quote
Speak for yourself


I know that reading is something new to you, but I was pretty sure that I said "...a matter in which I think non-N20 sailors..."

Quote
it wasn't good to see those fractures among N20 teams.


Yet you're facilitating it here. And for nothing more than your own amusement I'm guessing since this sail plan development discussion has nothing to do with your beloved F18 racing in So-cal (other than maybe you wont have such an easy time beating them old school N20's on corrected time if they actually get new sails)
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
And if you build that beast, where does all your passion for the Class go, Todd? When Smith started down that path, he took a lot of criticism - no matter what his motivation, it wasn't good to see those fractures among N20 teams.


If it got to that point, it'd be every man for himself.Also don't confuse my passion for a boat with blindly following the "class/factory" direction.

Tad,
You sure are mouthy for a non-sailing, rum owing BIITTTTCCCCHHHHHHH!
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided


Yet you're facilitating it here. And for nothing more than your own amusement I'm guessing since this sail plan development discussion has nothing to do with your beloved F18 racing in So-cal (other than maybe you wont have such an easy time beating them old school N20's on corrected time if they actually get new sails)


That was pretty good ,but you said you weren't going to respond to him anymore.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 05:13 PM

You're right.

I can't help myself.

Its the diet coke talking.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 05:14 PM

Thanks Guys, it was getting pretty old on the Drill thread, this is much more fun than watching everyone bash hobie1616
Posted By: Chris9

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 05:15 PM

Todd, I haven't raced against an F18 in bouys racing so I didn't know the result that F18s are faster around the bouys as well?

Todd etal,
Quote
for a boat with blindly following the "class/factory" direction


AND this is where it breaks down for me. Why does the builder own the class? Is it because we haven't stepped up to own the class via organizational effort?

Btw, I think John contributions are fine
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by andrewscott
Thanks Guys, it was getting pretty old on the Drill thread, this is much more fun than watching everyone bash hobie1616


And now a guy that doesn't own an N20 or even race has to jump in the fray.So much for this thread.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 05:20 PM

This thread needs some love.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
This thread needs some love.

[Linked Image]


Hey Tad,
Have you ever thought what you'd look like(Besides gay,nttiawwt) from a helicopter, in a whitecap strewn ocean if you got separated from the boat, in that get-up.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Undecided
This thread needs some love.

[Linked Image]


Hey Tad,
Have you ever thought what you'd look like(Besides gay,nttiawwt) from a helicopter, in a whitecap strewn ocean if you got separated from the boat, in that get-up.


Yup and thats why I brought dye packs with me.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...eNum=8&subdeptNum=50&classNum=51
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 05:42 PM

So then you'd look like a bright green queer.Not that there is anything wrong with that,especially if bright green is your color.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 06:24 PM

Wasn't SCHRS used for the last Tybee? Uh oh.

JW, is spot on about the coaching in the F18 class. I didn't spend a dime on that part the game before I got into the F18 class and now it's a significant part of the budget. I'll let you in on a little secret, the F16 guys are getting coaching too.

You know you guys can do exactly what Mark Smith did, go get yourself a set of sails from your favorite sailmaker cut to exact spec you want, take very small dpn hit and go sailing. You have a real world example of what a new sail plan will do, does it meet your expectations?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 06:32 PM

Quote
JW, is spot on about the coaching in the F18 class. I didn't spend a dime on that part the game before I got into the F18 class and now it's a significant part of the budget. I'll let you in a little secret, the F16 guys are getting coaching too.


To say that the N20 owners who are being vocal here haven't invested in the development of their own personal sailing skills is laughable to the point of being outright insulting.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
JW, is spot on about the coaching in the F18 class. I didn't spend a dime on that part the game before I got into the F18 class and now it's a significant part of the budget. I'll let you in a little secret, the F16 guys are getting coaching too.


To say that the N20 owners who are being vocal here haven't invested in the development of their own personal sailing skills is laughable to the point of being outright insulting.


Dude, you might want to ask for your money back.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 07:01 PM

I never mentioned that I was one of them David.
Posted By: macca

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 07:38 PM

Maybe the N20 class members have to consider where they want to position the class.

Its always going to be hard to keep up with a development class like the F18 in terms of performance, but does that make your boats any worse to sail?

You are still shitloads faster than a laser, less work and for sure more fun..

The 5.8 class in Australia has become a solid one design class in it's own right, they decided not to try and hold the top dog status and focus on what the boat was good at: even, fun, simple racing. Everybody is happy and they still sail with dacron sails and old school boats.

Make it more about the class than the boat and you are a long way to assuring longevity.
Posted By: Lost in Translation

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 07:54 PM

Hi Guys,

I am just crew on an N20 with both Tad and Trey at different times, but I can share re John William's concerns that people are definitely practicing on the N20s and are looking at coaching as well. I'm a big believer in coaching and used to be part of a team that got pro coaching each Tuesday at Treasure Island on 505s. I've been trying to do the same with the 20s and locally, several teams have worked together recently on items including rig tuning, boat handling, crew / helm / boat trading, etc. We've also worked on running dedicated clinics with coaches flown in. While it's not as intense as what I have done in the past and I'm sure not as intense as other classes, it's getting there. Hopefully the results will show in this year's Tybee though I think as whole more is needed.

Doing more coaching sessions is key to keeping any class alive, independent of sails. You could see the higher level of caliber in the F18s at Tradewinds where more boats kept racing in the big breeze. Sail design can help in this, but not as much as time on the water.

I'd like to see the N20 evolve as the owners recently discussed because it's a good cheap-speed class and can continue to serve multiple purposes. It also seems to bring new blood into high performance cat sailing. A great benefit to multihulls in general that I'm sure we all agree on.

In my mind the top two person competition is in the F18s now and that will remain the case no matter what. I don't think anyone will sell an F18 to get into a 20, but I do think some folks may move the other way as the New England Gangsta's did. I don't blame them at all. Some people probably will never switch and some people will buy 20s with no interest in F18s. That is fine too.

One of the reasons I like cat sailing compared to dinghies is the laid back, positive nature of the folks who sail them. I hope this discussion can fall back to that level rather than what I see above.



Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
JW, is spot on about the coaching in the F18 class. I didn't spend a dime on that part the game before I got into the F18 class and now it's a significant part of the budget. I'll let you in a little secret, the F16 guys are getting coaching too.


To say that the N20 owners who are being vocal here haven't invested in the development of their own personal sailing skills is laughable to the point of being outright insulting.


Dude, you might want to ask for your money back.

That's the old Ding we know and love.
Did you ever find my pet spider?
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 09:25 PM

A quick question from an outsider. If the N-20 sail plan is opened up would that open competion to other 20 ft boats. IE Hobie Fox with equal sails?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 09:46 PM

Nope, it would still be one design, just not SMOD.
A formula 20 class would be needed for that.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/13/10 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Undecided
I'm not going to reply to you any further JDub. No offense, but this is not a matter in which I think non-N20 sailors should be stirring the pot.

Keith on the other hand, has some very good questions and I think that he should expand on his thoughts. Unfortunately opening up the sail plan completely I don't think would work very well like it has in the most established formula classes - BUT I'm willing to listen to his proposals.

What I WOULD be interested is a genuine bonefide sailmaker chiming in here and giving us some estimates on what he expects a sail development program would cost, and what he would stand to make in the market if we were to try and open it up completely.


Speak for yourself, I think JW's input is good.
I also think Keith has some great points but it is not going to be possible to satisfy everyone.

Jdub's opinion matters to me. He has the tenure, experience, maturity in this sport to offer valuable insite, and the fact that he does not own the 20 might let him offer his opinion/knowledge without bias.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 12:29 AM

I think the big question is who else will build sails for this boat? I really don't see any minus's to going open, people are still going to buy sails at the same rate and I doubt they are going to be THAT much faster than a good helm with newer sails. I just don't see the market being that big, the local lofts honestly don't have the experience that people like EP, Performance Sails, Landenberger, Smyth and Glaser have when it comes to high performance catamaran sails. I also agree that EP makes awesome sails as far as quality and longevity are concerned, and it could be hard to beat them in this area.

As far as boat on boat performance, I'm not sure it matters that much (i.e vs. F18). Yes we would like to be faster, but I think a lot of it comes down to helm time and practice time. Sails are of course important in distance racing scenarios, and I think this is where people are complaining. Personally, I prefer sailing one-design or in a box rule against the same type of boats, so I know if I beat someone across the line I beat them fair and square, not based on some arbitrary formula. This matter, however, comes down to race organization, not boat speed per say. I will agree that it is tough to sail the N20 to its rating (a lot of good sailors several years ago made that rating plummet like a rock), and new sails will certainly help with this, but time on the water matters most imo.

At the end of the day, the N20 fills a niche: its a tough boat, capable of open ocean sailing, its RELATIVELY inexpensive, holds its value well and is downright fun to sail. My opinion stands that we should have EP do some R&D on there sails, and allow Performance Sails to be sold and used in the U.S (which the CURRENT, ONLINE rules don't SPECIFICALLY ban). This makes it a two sail maker market, i.e, introduces some competition which can help lower prices and drive quality, eliminates some R&D money by another sail maker/manufacturer/the class, and at the end of the day we get two potential suits of sails that are faster than the current set.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by samc99us
My opinion stands that we should have EP do some R&D on there sails, and allow Performance Sails to be sold and used in the U.S (which the CURRENT, ONLINE rules don't SPECIFICALLY ban). This makes it a two sail maker market, i.e, introduces some competition which can help lower prices and drive quality, eliminates some R&D money by another sail maker/manufacturer/the class, and at the end of the day we get two potential suits of sails that are faster than the current set.

See if you can sell that to Peter . . .
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by samc99us
My opinion stands that we should have EP do some R&D on there sails, and allow Performance Sails to be sold and used in the U.S (which the CURRENT, ONLINE rules don't SPECIFICALLY ban). This makes it a two sail maker market, i.e, introduces some competition which can help lower prices and drive quality, eliminates some R&D money by another sail maker/manufacturer/the class, and at the end of the day we get two potential suits of sails that are faster than the current set.

See if you can sell that to Peter . . .


It WON"T lower prices because they are still using the factory as the middle man.They are both under factory control. You won't be buying them from EP unless it's opened. You will be buying EP sails from the factory with a markup for that service.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 12:55 AM

Understood. This also means the factory absorbs R&D costs, correct? That may mean the net cost is the same (i.e, no factory=we pay R&D), although over the course of a sails design life we are likely to benefit significantly (couple hundred $$'s) cost wise by eliminating the middle man. I think mummp's point is more valid, I know people have fought this argument before and lost, perhaps even beaten down with an iron fist?

My question to the class is the following: if we as a class say you can use E/P sails and you can use Performance Sails, what's to stop you from buying either set? Other than Peter owns Performance and might stop you from buying, so say we bring Glaser or Landenberger on board and say these two sets of sails are class legal? Of course, this is up to the class to decide.

How often do the F18's have to buy new sails to be competitive, i.e, when do the sails themselves die (material's soft) and when do you have to upgrade simply because the new design is faster? Most racers buy a new main and jib every 2 years and a new spinnaker ever year in the N20 class, agreed? If the improved design cycle means we still buy sails at the same interval, whats the loss to the class (factory aside)?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 01:08 AM

R&D cost=red herring
the lofts know how to build 'em. . .
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 02:15 AM

I had a lengthy conversation on the phone with Todd today, and his arguments for opening up the sail plan to all lofts are compelling, however I still want to do some research and see if the economics of it all works out. Of course, if we do go open sails - then the only way to roll is an owner's class association. Just making sure that that is blatantly clear to everyone.

If we go the SMOD route - 2 things need to happen to make me stay in this camp. First, the cost of the sails needs to come down. The markup on the sails is obscene and everyone knows it. Second, the sails we get can't just be the Vink/Performance sails, sent over and just blindly duplicated by EP without any kind of R&D. You cannot expect Nacra to pony up for sail development for a class that they have abandoned for all intents and purposes.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 02:55 AM

I have created a google group for "Nacra 20 owner's association" If your an owner and don't recieve an invite to the group within the next few hours(I sent out what I had at 10:45 pm), please PM me your Email address so I can send you an invite. Please spread the word to anyone who doesn't frequent Catsailor or PM me their Emails.
The intent of this group will be to open lines of communication between all nacra20 owners and co-owners so everyone can have a voice.
Thanks,
Todd Hart
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 03:18 AM

Thanks Todd, got it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 04:27 AM

Since you're all in this frenzy of class-love, now is exactly the right time to go and sign up for your North American Championship at Racine! - http://crawsailing.net/Racine2010/registration. So far Jake is the only non-local to pull the trigger (Mike, you're a local smile ). It's hard to argue that the class has a healthy future if you don't have a well attended championship event.

If you're interested, here are some photos of the regatta location - a few of mine from CRAW events in 07 and 08 here (sorry, taken from shore so some quite distant shots), and some by Moving Target Photography from the last Performance NAs there in 06 here.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by andrewscott
Thanks Guys, it was getting pretty old on the Drill thread, this is much more fun than watching everyone bash hobie1616


And now a guy that doesn't own an N20 or even race has to jump in the fray.So much for this thread.


Sorry if my controversial comments have derailed your discussion and changed the direction of all the N20 owners..
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by andrewscott
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by andrewscott
Thanks Guys, it was getting pretty old on the Drill thread, this is much more fun than watching everyone bash hobie1616


And now a guy that doesn't own an N20 or even race has to jump in the fray.So much for this thread.


Sorry if my controversial comments have derailed your discussion and changed the direction of all the N20 owners..


No problem. I don't expect much constructive input from your posts, and wasn't disappointed.
Bashing Hobie1616 is a worthwhile effort though, so your excused. wink
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

No problem. I don't expect much constructive input from your posts, and wasn't disappointed.
Bashing Hobie1616 is a worthwhile effort though, so your excused. wink


"bashing" is your thing... not mine
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by andrewscott
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

No problem. I don't expect much constructive input from your posts, and wasn't disappointed.
Bashing Hobie1616 is a worthwhile effort though, so your excused. wink


"bashing" is your thing... not mine


OK then your not excused, now piss off like a good little wannabe comedian.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 03:19 PM

GeeWiz Todd, you sure one heck of an ambassador for the sport and your class (makes me want to rush out and get a n20 to be with such warm and welcoming people).
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 03:22 PM

Dude,
Who are you kidding you'll never own a N20, quit stirring crap.As far as the ambassador, I'm more like the bouncer.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 03:51 PM

I will stop responding ONLY because this is such an important topic (to N20 owners) and out of respect of all the others in this post...

but it aint me stirin' this pot
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 04:08 PM

I'm sure any sailmaker would like to know as exactly as feasable how many sails will be produced per year for the class.

The class association is a good basis to determine the approximate number of actively sailed N20 boats, and using the avg. main/jib every other year and spin every year would put the total annual sail production at......?

And what R&D are we talking about here?
- shape
- size
- material

I'm not sure I understand how much R&D costs (labor, testing, materials,.... what else?)
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I'm sure any sailmaker would like to know as exactly as feasable how many sails will be produced per year for the class.

The class association is a good basis to determine the approximate number of actively sailed N20 boats, and using the avg. main/jib every other year and spin every year would put the total annual sail production at......?

And what R&D are we talking about here?
- shape
- size
- material

I'm not sure I understand how much R&D costs (labor, testing, materials,.... what else?)


I think that's one of the big question marks. R&D from the factory would consist of what? versus R&d from an independent sail loft. My guess is there would not be alot of either. If I went to an independent loft, I would show them what I had and explain what I was looking to improve on and let them change within measurement constraints as they see fit.
My thoughts are(open or SMOD): for the spin -Flatter more current design like a tornado or f-18. For the main- a flatter (maybe) cut with more sail area moved to the square top from the foot area like an A cat or the new F20 sail. The jib would need to be tailored to whatever changes are made to the previous 2.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
If I went to an independent loft, I would show them what I had and explain what I was looking to improve on and let them change within measurement constraints as they see fit.


So, in effect, you are shouldering the burden of R&D costs yourself:
- you're paying for the sail with its new configuration
- you are sailing it and judging your performance change
- if it turns out to be a dog, you wasted your dollars on that sail, and will have to buy another one
- if it's a clear winner, the loft will sell the "new" design to other sailors

I guess if we're constraining our sailplan change to only sail shapes, perhaps this open development is feasable. What if the class considers an entirely different sailplan that incorporates a wing mast?

In my opinion, I think that something major like that should be undertaken by the factory (since their name's on the back) and I would be more likely to pay more for equipment to offset their R&D costs which would presumably be much higher.

For instance, with a new mast, would you want to change shroud/forestay measurements/angles? Would you need to reshape the leading sails to optimize the wing mast? Would a different boom/rotator configuration be more effective? How about mainsheet system? Would there be any changes to the mainbeam to accommodate these other changes? All those answers cost R&D money... likely far in excess of just trying out a new sail or two...
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 04:33 PM

Jay

I don't think the factory will dish out any $$ for development of the new sails. I think what Todd says is true - they'll just hand a set of the Performance sails from the EU and tell Skip to make his own copy.

If this ISN'T going to be the case, and there is going to be a documented R&D process involving several sets of different versions of the sails to be produced and feedback documented by the sailors and returned to the loft, then I'm all for THAT solution. If that isn't going to be the case then I'm not so gung-ho about it.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 04:37 PM

I agree with Todd. I think the R&D from the factory is really going to be Elliot updating the sail plan to modern F-18 style main and spin with correlating jib (I don't consider the Tornado modern anymore as they have stopped development with no Olympics in the foreseeable future). I am by no means a sail designer, but have spent a bit of time in the loft (summer job); the materials Elliot uses are top notch, very comparable, if not better than (longevity wise), than the latest TP52 sails coming out of Quantum. I am personally willing to stick with this level of build, even if it means a weight penalty. One thing to keep in mind is that a flatter spin may mean a small penalty in downwind vmg during a bouys race, as you'll need to point higher to keep the speed the same. On a distance reaching race, i.e, Tybee, the flatter spin is the way to go, IF the conditions are reaching.

Performance Nationals: Great event, middle of the semester for us college boys=not going to happen. Its also tough for people to take 2 weeks off work (1 week for Tybee and 1 week for Nationals). In many ways the class is split because of this, i.e, you commit to distance racing or buoys racing, with many people who distance race doing buoys racing in the summer etc.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
If I went to an independent loft, I would show them what I had and explain what I was looking to improve on and let them change within measurement constraints as they see fit.


So, in effect, you are shouldering the burden of R&D costs yourself:
- you're paying for the sail with its new configuration
- you are sailing it and judging your performance change
- if it turns out to be a dog, you wasted your dollars on that sail, and will have to buy another one
- if it's a clear winner, the loft will sell the "new" design to other sailors

I guess if we're constraining our sailplan change to only sail shapes, perhaps this open development is feasable. What if the class considers an entirely different sailplan that incorporates a wing mast?

In my opinion, I think that something major like that should be undertaken by the factory (since their name's on the back) and I would be more likely to pay more for equipment to offset their R&D costs which would presumably be much higher.

For instance, with a new mast, would you want to change shroud/forestay measurements/angles? Would you need to reshape the leading sails to optimize the wing mast? Would a different boom/rotator configuration be more effective? How about mainsheet system? Would there be any changes to the mainbeam to accommodate these other changes? All those answers cost R&D money... likely far in excess of just trying out a new sail or two...


I agree with you on the mast stuff( I think), but right now we are talking carbon mast sail upgrades, because that's what 99% of the folks have. Changing masts starts encroaching on the OD aspect entirely.I don't want to go there in this thread, let's try to stay on track.Another thread on that discussion would be great, just not here.
Posted By: Chris9

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 04:51 PM

Jay,

My expereince buying a suit of sails for the 6.0 directly from "my" sailmaker was this:

He comes to the boat, makes measurements and takes pictuers, looks at other boats, rigs my boat, sails my boat, takes existing sails with him, makes sails, bring them to boat, rigs boat, sails boat, takes the sails that need minor adjustments with him and adjusts and then redelivers. The spin didn't need any adjustment and it was GREAT! The Jib needed the zipper opening to be a little bit bigger to allow the halyard to travel thru it. The main needed a luff curve adjustment and different battans. All service and adjustments included in the initial cost of sails which we agreed not to share because it was very reasonable. All was very good after that.
Posted By: Tornado

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 04:56 PM

Seems to me all this fuss of the I20 sailplan is coming from the Tybee500 race last year...which was primarily a beam/close reaching course and not DDW. The F18's could handle those angles better...so now I20's want to match/beat them in those conditions...but won't this just exchange superior downwind performance for better reaching performance? On standard short courses, the current I20 should beat F18's Up/Down wind.

Why change the boat/class to make it better for special-case racing like the Tybee? Better to make a distance racing sail plan and a standard one for round-the-buoys short stuff.

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 05:02 PM

Then I would agree with your consensus that just tweaking the sails is probably not worth paying all the extra markup on. Especially if the sails are being adapted to an existing and proven design (allbeit on a different boat class)

I agree that the current sail materials are very durable (with the possible exception to the spin, which after one season looked more like sailtape than spinnaker in my case) and should be kept to encourage part-time enthusiasts to remain in the sport because it's cost-effective over a development class

If the sail profile itself changes dramatically to favor one type of racing over another (distance vs. cans), then expect a change in the class demographics. A study of the current population of distance and buoy racers or turnout may be helpful in this regard.

I love medium distance stuff (25 - 75 miles) because it's not too taxing on the body/budget/vacation time, but I favor buoys as the most economical use of my time because you can get a lot more work on starts, turns, transitions in a given race day. That, and you have more opportunities to go from "worst to first" than a one-race distance day.

So, that being said, I'd favor an improvement of the sailplan itself as long as performance around the buoys didn't suffer dramatically.

I have been a light air sailor who feels this is a good measure of sailing ability in terms of boat handling and racing tactics. Heavy air sailing is (to me) an entirely different realm which requires much more emphasis on boat handling and survival sailing than course strategy.

To that end, I would like the ability to de-power in heavy air better than what exists currently, be it in the form of a shortening sail, ability to flatten sails better, or something else..

Having spanned the entire gamut of crew weights, I really love the ability of the N20 to handle the heavier crews and offer plenty of space to move my tall keister around (wouldn't mind the shorter platform if my crew was a supermodel nympho, but I don't recall being that lucky)
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 05:04 PM

Why don't you guys just write down the Nacra 20 sail measurement rule and be done with it. The class measures the sails or you show an independent cert of measurement at events that are important.

If an owner wants a custom sail... they will go where they feel they get the best service and design. Locally, our sailmaker would pull the mast off... Measure it's static bend properties. Discuss with you what you want.... Factor in your crew weight and modify his basic design with this custom luff curve..

Fly the sail and make sure you are happy with the product.

Big Boat sailmakers work the same way.... This idea that you purchase a sail off the rack (and it works for you as is... or you go and spend more and have it recut) is relic of the past... Great if you are selling 1000 sails a year and you control the rules which give you this monopoly. ...

In your case... What design parameter do you give the sailmaker who is to do all of the RandD.... I want a sail for a 325 min team... it should be flat and fast.... versus... I want a sail for my 425 lb team... it better be full and tunable with a lot of grunt...

hmm... In the end... you spend 2K and you are still not happy with your sail.... it's not the sailmaker... its the underlying philosophy WHY?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Then I would agree with your consensus that just tweaking the sails is probably not worth paying all the extra markup on. Especially if the sails are being adapted to an existing and proven design (allbeit on a different boat class)

I agree that the current sail materials are very durable (with the possible exception to the spin, which after one season looked more like sailtape than spinnaker in my case) and should be kept to encourage part-time enthusiasts to remain in the sport because it's cost-effective over a development class

If the sail profile itself changes dramatically to favor one type of racing over another (distance vs. cans), then expect a change in the class demographics. A study of the current population of distance and buoy racers or turnout may be helpful in this regard.

I love medium distance stuff (25 - 75 miles) because it's not too taxing on the body/budget/vacation time, but I favor buoys as the most economical use of my time because you can get a lot more work on starts, turns, transitions in a given race day. That, and you have more opportunities to go from "worst to first" than a one-race distance day.

So, that being said, I'd favor an improvement of the sailplan itself as long as performance around the buoys didn't suffer dramatically.

I have been a light air sailor who feels this is a good measure of sailing ability in terms of boat handling and racing tactics. Heavy air sailing is (to me) an entirely different realm which requires much more emphasis on boat handling and survival sailing than course strategy.

To that end, I would like the ability to de-power in heavy air better than what exists currently, be it in the form of a shortening sail, ability to flatten sails better, or something else..

Having spanned the entire gamut of crew weights, I really love the ability of the N20 to handle the heavier crews and offer plenty of space to move my tall keister around (wouldn't mind the shorter platform if my crew was a supermodel nympho, but I don't recall being that lucky)


Mike and Jay,
I would hope there would not be a tradeoff, if there was you could use the cut now provided as a fuller DW sail vs. a reacher. There doesn't seem to have been a tradeoff for the Tornado or other classes with current flatter designs.
The T-500 was a wake up call not a design determination,IMO.
Keep in mind this is a 12 year old sail design with little to no intentional changes in that period.
As far as the durability of EPsails,a few of the F-18 folks I've talked to said they get a year out of their Performance sails sometimes less on the highly campaigned boats,but they are lighter. I get 3 years on an EP main, as Jay said maybe a year on the spin, but I think that's the nature of the beast(light spin cloth). So I guess the weight /durability issue is one you'd have to prioritize for yourself.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 06:59 PM

Simple yes or no question:

Do you think that you could go get a set of sails made from an independent loft that is:

1) Less expensive than the EP/Nacra US sails
2) Better performance all around than whatever the new sails that EP releases
3) as durable as the EP sails
?

Again, solid number quotes from independent sail makers would be nice.

I think right now,

Main - $1600
Jib - $800
Spin - $1400

Assuming the "new" sails would be the same price (hopefully less expensive - hey a guy can dream right) ... would we be getting a better deal all around by going open? I have my doubts but I'll be doing some of my own research in this regard next week.
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Jay

I don't think the factory will dish out any $$ for development of the new sails. I think what Todd says is true - they'll just hand a set of the Performance sails from the EU and tell Skip to make his own copy.

If this ISN'T going to be the case, and there is going to be a documented R&D process involving several sets of different versions of the sails to be produced and feedback documented by the sailors and returned to the loft, then I'm all for THAT solution. If that isn't going to be the case then I'm not so gung-ho about it.


How much "development" do you guys really think is going to happen here? They're going to take the shape parameters from the latest F18 kites and mains, scale them, make an accommodation for the different mast bend characteristics (hopefully) and cut a new sail. There's really not much magic to it unless you guys are expecting something like an Olympic sail development cycle. Sailmaking is down to a pretty fine science for the kind of leap we're talking about. It's going to take one guy an afternoon or two to layout the new main and an afternoon for the kite.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 07:21 PM

Jake: What I don't want to have happen, is "here is what you get" without any but the most privileged in the class's input.
Posted By: macca

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 08:56 PM

Seems pretty simple to me:-

do you trust that EP or Performance will put enough effort into developing a new set of sails?

Do you trust that another sailmaker/sailmakers will put in the required effort?

I know from where I sit, Performance sails will do the hard yards as long as there is commitment from the class. If it's a development project for one boat then it's impossible to justify the time and materials. But for the class it's feasible.

Prices are another issue: you all work or own businesses. Does any of you feel happy if someone says your markups are way too much? Do you think you are charging too much for your work?
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/14/10 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Jake: What I don't want to have happen, is "here is what you get" without any but the most privileged in the class's input.


So your proposal is a "design by committee"?

One thing I do NOT want to see is 6 different versions of "development" spinnakers on boats around the country, based on who knew who, used over the next four years. I want my SMOD class. If I race you on the race course I want to know I either won or lost with the same equipment. I also don't want to have to buy 3 spinnakers before they settle on a design.

This really isn't some magical mystical thing to design a faster sail than what we have.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 02:26 AM

So, if we start 2 sail testing spinnakers in the local fleet you aren't going to be a happy camper? I'm not saying 6 different spin cuts, I'm saying two boats that have different spins from the stock. Then by Q1 2011 one of these designs (or slightly modified) becomes the new spinnaker.
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by samc99us
So, if we start 2 sail testing spinnakers in the local fleet you aren't going to be a happy camper? I'm not saying 6 different spin cuts, I'm saying two boats that have different spins from the stock. Then by Q1 2011 one of these designs (or slightly modified) becomes the new spinnaker.


I think the cart is ahead and around the corner from the horse here and I suggest we get some sailmaker input (Elliot / Vink) about the direction of the sail improvement before we start laying down any specific plans. There have been volumes of sail development that has taken place on very similar platforms that we can draw from and gain an immediate and gratifying improvement - including the sails Nacra Europe developed for this same boat. There have been several sail changes ON this platform in the past...some of which we probably aren't even aware of. Why exactly do we need to do boat on boat testing? What is the point in spending the time, energy, and money in extracting an extra .01% of potential when the ultimate goal is to race each other with identical sail plans?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by samc99us
So, if we start 2 sail testing spinnakers in the local fleet you aren't going to be a happy camper? I'm not saying 6 different spin cuts, I'm saying two boats that have different spins from the stock. Then by Q1 2011 one of these designs (or slightly modified) becomes the new spinnaker.


I think the cart is ahead and around the corner from the horse here and I suggest we get some sailmaker input (Elliot / Vink) about the direction of the sail improvement before we start laying down any specific plans. There have been volumes of sail development that has taken place on very similar platforms that we can draw from and gain an immediate and gratifying improvement - including the sails Nacra Europe developed for this same boat. There have been several sail changes ON this platform in the past...some of which we probably aren't even aware of. Why exactly do we need to do boat on boat testing? What is the point in spending the time, energy, and money in extracting an extra .01% of potential when the ultimate goal is to race each other with identical sail plans?

What you said Jake. It's been done already. We just have to all agree on what rules exist on how to get there.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 03:42 AM

I fully agree that we need sailmaker input before we start doing testing, and drawing on other boat experience is valuable, but why do we as a class want to authorize a sail for class use if it hasn't been used in boat on boat scenarios? I.e, why use a sail plan that isn't GUARANTEED to be faster than the current sail plan. IMO, this requires a good sailor to use the new sails and NOT GET SCORED at a major regatta, i.e, nationals or tradewinds, and do some boat on boat reaching. From what I've seen, the top 4 boats at Tradewinds all had roughly the same boat speed, so it should be easy to see the differences.
Posted By: BLR_0719

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 03:50 AM

I've read all of this, and it is starting to seem like we want this brand new golden sail that is years ahead of its time. Here are my simple thoughts.

1) The 20 is fast as ****.. even with current sails.

2) We could use a little updating; nothing wrong with that. But I don't think we need a mass-scale reconstruction of sails.

3) The most current F18 sails are the most modern and competitive catamaran sails around. So what's wrong with taking what is known about these sails, and converting it to the 20? Why do we need all this R&D? If you ask me, all the R&D is already there; now take that knowledge and make the sail fit the 20.

4) Other than using the '09 Tybee example, do we really want a spin that is flatter that makes us sail closer to the wind to maintain the same speed as the current ones which let us keep that speed but sail further off the wind? It seems to me that if the wind direction had been a little more in our favor we would be happy to keep the spins we have now because we could sail deeper downwind at the same speed as the F18's who would have had to sail closer to the wind.

Honestly, how much faster is a new sail plan really going to make this boat? I'm looking for legit reasons here: It will increase speed by X amount; it will allow us to sail X degrees closer to the wind, etc,...

In other words: whats the goal here? My topic of study centers around making and defeating arguments, and so far I haven't heard much argument for new sails other than "we want new sails because ours are old," or "we want new sails for better performance." But what I'm fishing for is a decent understanding of how new sails will increase performance.

BTW: I'm all for a new sail plan. But the reason there is so much debate here is because there are hardly any solid objective reasons for new sails. What makes me most proud about this topic is that there are people like Todd, Tad, and Sam who are extremely dedicated to this boat and doing everything in their power to keep it alive and make it as competitive as technology will allow. Keep it up.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by samc99us
I fully agree that we need sailmaker input before we start doing testing, and drawing on other boat experience is valuable, but why do we as a class want to authorize a sail for class use if it hasn't been used in boat on boat scenarios? I.e, why use a sail plan that isn't GUARANTEED to be faster than the current sail plan. GUARANTEED? Your kidding? IMO, this requires a good sailor to use the new sails and NOT GET SCORED at a major regatta, i.e, nationals Ain't gonna happen at a nationals! or tradewinds, and do some boat on boat reaching. Why? From what I've seen, the top 4 boats at Tradewinds all had roughly the same boat speed, so it should be easy to see the differences.

Sam, your really hung up on this boat on boat testing, research, etc. Look, the sail design is twelve years old, built under the SMOD environment. Any sail built today will be better. That's the reason we're even having this discussion. It ain't rocket science. Even the first set of sails for the aluminum rig hit its mark, right out of the box. The time and testing was time on the water to learn the new sails sweet spots, how to tune it, how to sail it.
You know you're making your own argument to open up the sails.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 09:45 AM

Didnt Nacra already design a new sail/rig for the European N20 market a few years ago in order to revive the class?
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 12:25 PM

Based on where we're at with the age of the N20 sail plan:

1) Sail design improvement over what we have for a 2 to 5% (heck, maybe even 7% in some conditions) gain may well be a simple push-button science for sailmakers with the right equipment and experience.

2) Sail design for the last 1 to 2% of the speed potential is an art form and requires an influx of resources on an ever increasing exponential curve.

3) I have this sneaky suspicion that deep down you guys are eaten up with this "must beat the F18" mantra. I believe that there are some incorrect conclusions that are feeding this emotion and I think it's a bit of a short sited view. First; the one time the F18 has shown a strong advantage is last year's Tybee 500 on the several days of tight spinnaker reaching. There's no doubt that the N20 has an achilles heal here with the very full kite and main and the gobs of sail area. However, around the cans, the F18 (the boat) is still not beating the N20 (the boat) in most conditions. Granted, it's been about 1.5 years since I dialed up on a start line against one, but it wasn't that long ago that Nigel on his F18 was following me and my rookie crew around the race course for too many laps on more than one occasion and one event (I used to stink at getting the course number...now I can't count laps damnit).

Let's make sure we all have the right reasons in mind here for this sail change. If you want to do it to beat the F18, you guys can have all of that on your own. Just open up the sail plans and be done with it - it's an exercise that will serve to fracture a class that has survived to this point based on a very different philosophy. If you want the sail change to increase the class's marketability with an outward appearnce of a gently and thoughtfully "refreshed" sail plan that makes the boat a little more manageable on the race course then I'm all with you. Keep in mind that if you make some huge leap, you're obsoleting all legacy boats and sailors who don't have the jack for $3200 worth of new sails. You know that phrase they use in Texas about that famous fort that fell during the Texas Revolution? Well... "Remember the 6.0".

Let's not make this so complicated that we can't figure out which end of the gun the bullet comes out of.
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Based on where we're at with the age of the N20 sail plan:

1) Sail design improvement over what we have for a 2 to 5% (heck, maybe even 7% in some conditions) gain may well be a simple push-button science for sailmakers with the right equipment and experience.

2) Sail design for the last 1 to 2% of the speed potential is an art form and requires an influx of resources on an ever increasing exponential curve.

3) I have this sneaky suspicion that deep down you guys are eaten up with this "must beat the F18" mantra. I believe that there are some incorrect conclusions that are feeding this emotion and I think it's a bit of a short sited view. First; the one time the F18 has shown a strong advantage is last year's Tybee 500 on the several days of tight spinnaker reaching. There's no doubt that the N20 has an achilles heal here with the very full kite and main and the gobs of sail area. However, around the cans, the F18 (the boat) is still not beating the N20 (the boat) in most conditions. Granted, it's been about 1.5 years since I dialed up on a start line against one, but it wasn't that long ago that Nigel on his F18 was following me and my rookie crew around the race course for too many laps on more than one occasion and one event (I used to stink at getting the course number...now I can't count laps damnit).

Let's make sure we all have the right reasons in mind here for this sail change. If you want to do it to beat the F18, you guys can have all of that on your own. Just open up the sail plans and be done with it - it's an exercise that will serve to fracture a class that has survived to this point based on a very different philosophy. If you want the sail change to increase the class's marketability with an outward appearnce of a gently and thoughtfully "refreshed" sail plan that makes the boat a little more manageable on the race course then I'm all with you. Keep in mind that if you make some huge leap, you're obsoleting all legacy boats and sailors who don't have the jack for $3200 worth of new sails. You know that phrase they use in Texas about that famous fort that fell during the Texas Revolution? Well... "Remember the 6.0".

Let's not make this so complicated that we can't figure out which end of the gun the bullet comes out of.


Jake, I agree 100% with you here. This is a one-design class, why are we setting the F-18 as the benchmark?

Let's look at costs:

Of all the top F-18 sailors in the world, which lofts do most get their sails from? Are they the small, local, lofts? Or are they big, well-known (nationally and internationally) lofts with loads of experience and followers? (Think Ullman-Zuccoli, Performance Sails, even E/P)...
Do you think those lofts sell sails at a big discount? Absolutely not! Their sails come at a premium....

Let's look at R&D:

Nacra has agreed to let us update the sails over a rollout period. Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel overnight? E/P, just as well as any other loft, knows that needs to be done to update the sail plan-they just need permission from Nacra to do that. We are in the process of getting that 'formal' permission. It has to be a stepped plan though, not an all-at-once kind of event.

Sail design is not what is holding most of us back.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Based on where we're at with the age of the N20 sail plan:

1) Sail design improvement over what we have for a 2 to 5% (heck, maybe even 7% in some conditions) gain may well be a simple push-button science for sailmakers with the right equipment and experience.

2) Sail design for the last 1 to 2% of the speed potential is an art form and requires an influx of resources on an ever increasing exponential curve.

3) I have this sneaky suspicion that deep down you guys are eaten up with this "must beat the F18" mantra. I believe that there are some incorrect conclusions that are feeding this emotion and I think it's a bit of a short sited view. First; the one time the F18 has shown a strong advantage is last year's Tybee 500 on the several days of tight spinnaker reaching. There's no doubt that the N20 has an achilles heal here with the very full kite and main and the gobs of sail area. However, around the cans, the F18 (the boat) is still not beating the N20 (the boat) in most conditions. Granted, it's been about 1.5 years since I dialed up on a start line against one, but it wasn't that long ago that Nigel on his F18 was following me and my rookie crew around the race course for too many laps on more than one occasion and one event (I used to stink at getting the course number...now I can't count laps damnit).

Let's make sure we all have the right reasons in mind here for this sail change. If you want to do it to beat the F18, you guys can have all of that on your own. Just open up the sail plans and be done with it - it's an exercise that will serve to fracture a class that has survived to this point based on a very different philosophy. If you want the sail change to increase the class's marketability with an outward appearnce of a gently and thoughtfully "refreshed" sail plan that makes the boat a little more manageable on the race course then I'm all with you. Keep in mind that if you make some huge leap, you're obsoleting all legacy boats and sailors who don't have the jack for $3200 worth of new sails. You know that phrase they use in Texas about that famous fort that fell during the Texas Revolution? Well... "Remember the 6.0".


Pt.3) As a whole, I agree with you,but...
The Tybee was not the first recognition of F18/N20, the Great Texas 300 saw it before that, it's not an anomaly.
If we are finally getting the sailplan updated after 12 years, rather it be SMOD or open lofts, why not go for all the cookies. A mediocre upgrade totally defeats the purpose. It ISN"T as complicated as everyone is trying to make it sound. Like Philip said "It ain't rocket science" but , if we are going through the trouble now and may have to wait another decade for another chance (SMOD route)let's get the best we can.
On a side note there has been a small resurgence of 6.0 sailors who modded their boats with sq. tops and flatter jibs and kites. They seemed to have gained some traction, so PC cali. comes out with a new ruleset for the 6.0 after they had abandoned them. Apparently the 6.0 sailors laughed it off.

And speaking of being abandoned the NACRA 20 is not on the pricelist as a current class boat. That's how it died for the P19, Nacra 5.8 and Nacra 6.0. So think about that when your blindly putting your trust in the factory for sail innovation.Seems to me with the success of the Infusion,the introduction of the new F20,and the fact that PC is now European owned, where there is no Nacra20 class to speak of, that their incentive to help us is pretty small, even when it comes to the sale of new sails.

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 03:16 PM

a bit off topic but the 49'er olympic team presented at our sail club last night. He stated that a new 49'er all up was about $35k (sans trailer/box, etc) and here's what he said about sails:

- new main/jib every other regatta - $4500
- new spin every regatta - $1100

Is THIS what the olympic committee deems "affordable" for the purposes of selecting a class of boat that every nation can use to put forth a team?

If so, how do these figures compare to an olympic tornado?

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by NCSUtrey
[

Jake, I agree 100% with you here. This is a one-design class, why are we setting the F-18 as the benchmark?

Let's look at costs:

Of all the top F-18 sailors in the world, which lofts do most get their sails from? Are they the small, local, lofts? Or are they big, well-known (nationally and internationally) lofts with loads of experience and followers? (Think Ullman-Zuccoli, Performance Sails, even E/P)...
Do you think those lofts sell sails at a big discount? Absolutely not! Their sails come at a premium....

Let's look at R&D:

Nacra has agreed to let us update the sails over a rollout period. Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel overnight? E/P, just as well as any other loft, knows that needs to be done to update the sail plan-they just need permission from Nacra to do that. We are in the process of getting that 'formal' permission. It has to be a stepped plan though, not an all-at-once kind of event.

Sail design is not what is holding most of us back.


Trey, do you honestly believe that the "premium" you pay for a current cutting edge sail is going to be more than what your paying now for your 12 yr old technology sail. It's Not!

Your look at R&D doesn't say anything about R&D, did I miss something?

I'm not opposed to the SMOD approach, I just don't believe it's the best for the class. Jake said, SMOD has kept the class alive this long, I feel the class has stayed alive this long despite SMOD. A continued SMOD approach will just bring on more decline, the sail upgrade may slow this ,but decline will continue. As far as upgrading sails making people uncompetitive, be realistic, If your not buying spins every year and a main every 2or3 years you're not competitive anyway. That's racing at any top level.

Trey, Thanks for your effort on this. I want the same as you, we just have different approaches to the same ends.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 04:50 PM

We have to be careful. I do think that moving to the new sail plan could be a class killer. There are very few of us that campaign our boats actively. There are a lot more people that sail in 2-3 local regattas a year. They might have a 3 year old main but as little as they sail it's still just fine.

These are the people that we could drive out of the class. They aren't willing to spend $1850 on a new main or 3500 on a new set of sails for 2-3 regattas. They also are not willing to go to a regatta and be uncompetitive. So we basically run the risk of losing these people.

It's very easy to piss people off. Those people will move classes if they feel like they are outgunned or out spent by other teams.

I'm in the middle. I think a nice staged and announced course of action would be good. We have to have a proposal and a vote. This would ensure that we all are heard. Also we don't want a vote with 4 options. Only 2 options at a time so we don't have split vote issues.

I don't want to see the sails opened up for many reasons.
1. The factory won't support it so we now are responsible to hold our own Nationals separate from the factory. This would not work with too few boats. We have to be included with the other boats to make the numbers work for a Nationals.
2. We bring in the fact that money can buy wins with newly designed sails that are faster.
3. We drive the weekend sailors out of the class because it's too expensive to compete on a level playing field.
4. We don't have anybody with the time or ability to measure all of these sails. It took the F18 years to get measurement in place and it's still hard to pull off.

I think we need to have a small group of three people (bouy, distance, Weekend) to hash out a plan talking among themselves then have someone talk to the factory and
Skip to come up with a plan. After coming up with an exact plan they should put it to a vote for the boat owners.

But you still run the risk of splintering the class.

Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 04:53 PM

Olympic costs are always higher than any normal sailor is willing to pay. I'm sure top Tornado teams would have new spins at least every 2 regattas and new mains/jibs every 4 regattas, something along that line. These guys buy enough sails in one year to pay for a new boat, and then buy a new boat every year anyway. The Tornado was an exception in this regard, with 5 year old boats competitive with brand new ones on an Olympic scale. It was honestly one of the cheaper boats to campaign (there is a long article about this on the web, I don't have the link offhand).

Back to the topic at hand, I agree with everything Jake is saying. I believe Trey was saying that you pay more for a Performance/Glaser/Ullman sail than the same sail built at a local loft, because the name brand sails have a reputation behind them that they are fast, not that these sails will cost more than what we are currently paying.

As far as boat on boat testing, Jake is absolutely correct that we don't need boat on boat testing get a 5% performance gain, but it can't hurt. If the class is opposed, we don't have to do this.

Timeline: I don't see why we can't get a new spin Q1 2011 and a new main AND jib Q2 2012. This makes the development a 2 year timeline, which is much better than a 3 year timeline imo, even if it costs more in outlay in 2 years time (buy two sails instead of one). It also make more sense, as people generally replace the main and jib at the same time, and both sails are linked together (flow wise) when sailing to windward, and even to some extent downwind (although the spin is more important).
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

I don't want to see the sails opened up for many reasons.
1. The factory won't support it so we now are responsible to hold our own Nationals separate from the factory. This would not work with too few boats. We have to be included with the other boats to make the numbers work for a Nationals.



Too late, Racine will be the second Performance Nationals where non performance boats were on the course. It's not the end of the world. Besides there are 3 formula classes that host their class nationals without any factory support. Factory support is over rated especially when they insist on telling you how to run your class.

Originally Posted by Mike Hill


2. We bring in the fact that money can buy wins with newly designed sails that are faster.



True, sort of, but I think this is still a bit of a red hearing, even when people moved from the Nacra F18 to the Infusion we still didn't see a dramatic change in results. Yes, the new stuff is better but the argument is by how much, and is it a class killer?

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

3. We drive the weekend sailors out of the class because it's too expensive to compete on a level playing field.


No matter what you do there will always be those that spend more, work harder and become untouchable, you can't control that with class rules.

Originally Posted by Mike Hill


4. We don't have anybody with the time or ability to measure all of these sails. It took the F18 years to get measurement in place and it's still hard to pull off.


This one is off the charts bogus! It didn't take the F18 class years to get measurement in place it took years for the right a$$hole to fall into the job and say "it's a class rule and we are doing it". I also have to say I've been impressed by the F18 fleet members and their commitment to this goal. Serious kudo's to our volunteers!


Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Hill
We have to be careful. I do think that moving to the new sail plan could be a class killer. There are very few of us that campaign our boats actively. There are a lot more people that sail in 2-3 local regattas a year. They might have a 3 year old main but as little as they sail it's still just fine.

These are the people that we could drive out of the class. They aren't willing to spend $1850 on a new main or 3500 on a new set of sails for 2-3 regattas. They also are not willing to go to a regatta and be uncompetitive. So we basically run the risk of losing these people. These folks won't be competitive in a year anyway.

It's very easy to piss people off. Those people will move classes if they feel like they are outgunned or out spent by other teams. What class are they going to spend less in that's a viable class?

I'm in the middle. I think a nice staged and announced course of action would be good. We have to have a proposal and a vote. This would ensure that we all are heard. Also we don't want a vote with 4 options. Only 2 options at a time so we don't have split vote issues.

I don't want to see the sails opened up for many reasons.
1. The factory won't support it so we now are responsible to hold our own Nationals separate from the factory. This would not work with too few boats. We have to be included with the other boats to make the numbers work for a Nationals.What does the factory do now, besides give a little cash to the host club?
2. We bring in the fact that money can buy wins with newly designed sails that are faster.I want to be faster, don't you?
3. We drive the weekend sailors out of the class because it's too expensive to compete on a level playing field. I reiterate they probably weren't competitive to begin with.
4. We don't have anybody with the time or ability to measure all of these sails. It took the F18 years to get measurement in place and it's still hard to pull off. We do and we can, it's a matter of whether the class as a whole is too lazy to do anything about it.

I think we need to have a small group of three people (bouy, distance, Weekend) to hash out a plan talking among themselves then have someone talk to the factory and
Skip to come up with a plan. After coming up with an exact plan they should put it to a vote for the boat owners. This has already happened with ONE person,Trey, (I applaud his effort) and he has a plan. I think all owners should be involved ,hence the google group to try and keep everyone in the loop.

But you still run the risk of splintering the class.


The class is dieing,that's obvious.

The way the class rules are set now. You don't get a vote until there are more than 50 boat owners registered and paid in the class association.
By your logic you want to inhibit the class to the lowest common denminator, I have no interest in that. I think the fault in that logic lies in that the people can't or won't spend the money will go to another class. The other classes they will go to are more expensive, unless you want the N20 to become like a Hobie 18( nothing wrong with that just not fast and current ). It has been a cutting edge fast boat , and it would be a shame to let that go for the unmotivated sector in the class.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/15/10 06:07 PM

I had this buried in another one of my posts and I think it deserves discussion, so I'm putting it here on it's own. We need to rely on ourselves not the factory.
Quote
And speaking of being abandoned the NACRA 20 is not on the pricelist as a current class boat. That's how it died for the P19, Nacra 5.8 and Nacra 6.0. So think about that when your blindly putting your trust in the factory for sail innovation.Seems to me with the success of the Infusion,the introduction of the new F20,and the fact that PC is now European owned, where there is no Nacra20 class to speak of, that their incentive to help us is pretty small, even when it comes to the sale of new sails.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/16/10 07:44 PM

I have long since forgotten where the post was about reefing/shortening sail, but is there any reason someone couldn't mount a second mast hook somewhere around the hounds so that if conditions warrant, you could lower the main to the second (lower) hook and attach the downhaul and outhaul to (pre-positioned) reef eyes on the main?

Do the mainsails these days move that much away from a rotating mast track as to get a hole punched in them if you mounted a hook in this fashion? I've never seen the main enter the mast track at an obtuse angle unless the rotator was stuck (by overrotation or some other means)on the wrong side or something like that..

What say you?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/16/10 08:29 PM

You wouldn't be able to get enough halyard tension in the lowered position , thereby not be able to depower the main as much as downhaul,outhaul and rotation all ready allow. There are many posts referencing this.If it gets so hairy that I need to reef the main ,it comes all the way down. This has only happened to me a couple of times.
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/18/10 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


The class is dieing,that's obvious.

The way the class rules are set now. You don't get a vote until there are more than 50 boat owners registered and paid in the class association.
By your logic you want to inhibit the class to the lowest common denminator, I have no interest in that. I think the fault in that logic lies in that the people can't or won't spend the money will go to another class. The other classes they will go to are more expensive, unless you want the N20 to become like a Hobie 18( nothing wrong with that just not fast and current ). It has been a cutting edge fast boat , and it would be a shame to let that go for the unmotivated sector in the class.


I don't believe it's that obvious that the class is dying. Yes, it took a big hit when a lot of sailors leapt to F18 but my perception is that the class has stabilized a little and actually grown slightly (thanks in part to Trey bringing on several new teams)...but we were the 3rd largest class at Tradewinds (16 waves, 14 F18s, and 12 20's) and still draw a very significant Nationals fleet while we've seen other classes come and go. Perhaps things do feel a little tenuous but I don't agree that we're "dying". I also wouldn't call the sector that is hesitant about a sail change "unmotivated" ... more like "cautious". If the class is on on a precipice facing decline, the wrong move here could throw it in the abyss of extinction easily. Remember the 6.0.

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/18/10 12:59 PM

The boat isn't available on the pricelist. The head in the sand thing isn't going to change that. The new teams are the SAME boats with different owners . To grow new boats would have to be taken into the fold.
The class had a drop when F-18 first came out, then some of them came back, now we are having another drop. It may just be a cycle, but I have to disagree with you in that , now IS the time to do something.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 03:19 AM

I don't understand WHY you keep bringing up this pricelist issue Todd.

Does it indicate that the factory has decided to let the class die and that they wont be marketing the boat anymore?

I mean, all it means to me is that - if you want a Nacra 20, your dealer is going to have to call Nacra to get a price on it.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 03:49 AM

The F20 isn't on the U.S price list either. Does this mean the F20 is a dieing class as well?

In all fairness, Todd is right that there haven't been many purchases of new N20's in the U.S in recent memory and this is a sign that they aren't going to be commonly available NEW in the near future. No new boat sails means no fleet growth. While the 20's have a decent showing at select regattas, the numbers simply don't compare with the 18's which are growing at a very fast pace across the country and North America; I doubt the 20 will ever catch up to this. We as a class need to actively recruit guys that are on the heavy side for an 18; in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
The F20 isn't on the U.S price list either. Does this mean the F20 is a dieing class as well?

In all fairness, Todd is right that there haven't been many purchases of new N20's in the U.S in recent memory and this is a sign that they aren't going to be commonly available NEW in the near future. No new boat sails means no fleet growth. While the 20's have a decent showing at select regattas, the numbers simply don't compare with the 18's which are growing at a very fast pace across the country and North America; I doubt the 20 will ever catch up to this. We as a class need to actively recruit guys that are on the heavy side for an 18; in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.


Nope, Straight from Jack Youngs mouth, I was told it wasn't targeted for the US and won't be on the market here.That was a few months after he told me they wouldn't be building another 20 footer, so the info is suspect at best. Anymore smartass deductions?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 01:06 PM

in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.



Schedule???

Sam...you seem to confuse 50 guys who own the same boat and happen to show up at the same event... with 50 class members who have agreed on a goal, mapped out a direction, published a schedule and are committed to making it happen.

Keith's questions about the class direction have not been answered.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
I don't understand WHY you keep bringing up this pricelist issue Todd.

Does it indicate that the factory has decided to let the class die and that they wont be marketing the boat anymore?

That's exactly what it means. Learn from your history, even if you weren't involved.

I keep bringing it up to reiterate the fact that a large chunk of you, seem more than willing to put your trust in a factory that for all intents and purposes wants you to get rid of your boat and buy an Infusion or an F20.Why count on them , we should count on us, the owners, for innovation and success.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

Anymore smartass deductions?


Mornin Sunshine. Oh and happy F!@#in Monday to you too.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 01:12 PM

Hey Cupcake!
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.



Schedule???

Sam...you seem to confuse 50 guys who own the same boat and happen to show up at the same event... with 50 class members who have agreed on a goal, mapped out a direction, published a schedule and are committed to making it happen.

Keith's questions about the class direction have not been answered.


Oh God,
Mark made a concise, accurate post that I totally agree with. What's the world coming to.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

Oh God,
Mark made a concise, accurate post that I totally agree with. What's the world coming to.


It only feels wrong the first couple of times.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 02:37 PM

From what I can see, the N20 is a great boat and could continue to be great class. If indeed, Performance does not plan on promoting the class any longer, I would think it is time to grab the bull by the horns.
You do NOT need a factory to make a class.
Even the Shark Catamaran Class is still thriving.., and that is with one lone builder left. At one point they had NO builders (most folks just bought old boats and rebuilt them)

As I mentioned in another post, I can set up a class Forum for the N20 where you can conduct class business. It can be open (where anyone can drop in and see what is going on) or closed (where only members can participate).., your call.
And, you can optionally set it up to send emails to members on each post.
You can also run polls on a regular basis, elect officers, or whatever.
I can set up a moderator(s) of the Forum so you can administrate it.

I would then think you could follow the pattern of a solid, growing, self-relying class and get a constitution, lay out sail criteria, and whatever else that would make the class grow.
You could have a panel of members that could do nothing but promote the class. Set up a National Series Championship, a Nationals, a North Americans, and do whatever the hell you wanted to do.

Even though I am not an owner, I am fond of the design and would love to see this class hang around forever.
Rick
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 03:08 PM

Rick, Don't forget... the Hobie Classes which are no longer built.

Hobie 20
Hobie 18
Hobie 17
Hobie 14

The factory is not the problem... they just don't offer a solution. The Hobie14, 17, 18, 20 class members are keeping the classes alive

Dave and Tawd...
See... you guys are just behind the curve... You should think before you talk... Credit due... you do manage to catch on....

my first post in this thread.

"The question of whether it's too late for the N20 class is only resolved by an agreement among the class members as to the vision going forward.

You should look at the Viper 640 class for inspiration... The boat was given up for dead but a new rig was part of a clear vision and buy in from the sailors resulted in a big rebound centered around a great regatta circuit and now they have a full page add in Sailing World listing their major regattas!

How not to manage the future??? See those dead boats that you just listed...."

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 03:26 PM

Daves a F18 /ex N20 sailor,now who's behind the curve . Catch up, Mark. You're an ex Dart and Tornado sailor, what's your average?.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 03:44 PM

Hey.... I still have my Dart... IMO... it's the best recreational boat ever built. It's still fun to sail her! Best two man race boat .... Tornado... Best single hander race boat... A class. Best compromise of all three.... F16

Now... the only class association that I have ever belonged to that has a clue is the A class.... maybe that's why the Dart and Tornado are history.

Your mileage might vary!... but... as I noted... your just a little slow on the uptake.... it took you all this time to get an A cat.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/19/10 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Hey.... I still have my Dart... IMO... it's the best recreational boat ever built. It's still fun to sail her! Best two man race boat .... Tornado... Best single hander race boat... A class. Best compromise of all three.... F16

Now... the only class association that I have ever belonged to that has a clue is the A class.... maybe that's why the Dart and Tornado are history.

Your mileage might vary!... but... as I noted... your just a little slow on the uptake.... it took you all this time to get an A cat.

And beat you the first time I raced you. Just trying to give you a little more time to work on your skills, or lack there of.
Posted By: Keith

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/20/10 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.



Schedule???

Sam...you seem to confuse 50 guys who own the same boat and happen to show up at the same event... with 50 class members who have agreed on a goal, mapped out a direction, published a schedule and are committed to making it happen.

Keith's questions about the class direction have not been answered.


Oh God,
Mark made a concise, accurate post that I totally agree with. What's the world coming to.


This:



Attached picture ss-100419-volcano-Sigurdsson.ss_full.jpg
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/20/10 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by Keith
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.



Schedule???

Sam...you seem to confuse 50 guys who own the same boat and happen to show up at the same event... with 50 class members who have agreed on a goal, mapped out a direction, published a schedule and are committed to making it happen.

Keith's questions about the class direction have not been answered.


Oh God,
Mark made a concise, accurate post that I totally agree with. What's the world coming to.


This:


I was afraid it was something like that.
Posted By: Keith

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/20/10 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Keith
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.



Schedule???

Sam...you seem to confuse 50 guys who own the same boat and happen to show up at the same event... with 50 class members who have agreed on a goal, mapped out a direction, published a schedule and are committed to making it happen.

Keith's questions about the class direction have not been answered.


Oh God,
Mark made a concise, accurate post that I totally agree with. What's the world coming to.


This:


I was afraid it was something like that.


Dr. Peter Venkman: This forum is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?
Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of Hobie type stuff.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.
Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!
Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of Aqua Cat Sailing! Earthquakes, volcanoes...
Winston Zeddemore: The 6.0s rising from the grave!
Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, monos and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 12:11 AM

We need to make a decision on what to do in the next month.

Options:
1) Stick with the factory authorized sail plan upgrade.
2) Screw the factory and get E/P to make a new sail plan, which will then be the class legal sail plan
3) Open sail plan up completely

I think we need to ask what the factory has done for US lately. Yes they keep parts support alive, but are they going to continue selling new boats? Are owners going to keep buying new boats? Dealers feel free to comment.

I am in favor of option 2. E/P makes quality sails that we all love, it lowers the price by excluding the middle man (Factory), and it keeps the boat SMOD.

Why NOT option 3? I don't think this is going to lower cost or improve quality. The market doesn't exist. A select few (I'm in this group) can get sails built at or near cost from there favorite local sail maker, which I'm happy to support, and they'll likely be fast sails, but everyone else is going to pay the same for a set of North or Quantum or Smyth or Landenberger sails as E/P sails, assuming the same quality material. Your likely to pay more because E/P builds more N20 sails than anyone else to my knowledge.

As far as a class war based on who has the fastest sails, I don't think its going to happen. Most of the N20 bunch simply don't have the cash to buy new sails prior to the old ones becoming unusable. The guys that buy new sails fairly often are already at the top of the game, and this just means the rest of us get good used sails at good prices. The only exception to this would be if the top guys starting experimenting with open sails, then selling the crap ones, in essence costing them more money. I don't foresee anyone doing this, as most people aren't rich!
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 12:46 AM

Are those the only three options? If so, where did they come from?
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 12:47 AM

Sam, what have YOU done for the CLASS lately? Changing sailplans and whatnot is not the key to growing our class. Introducing people to the thrill that is N20 sailing is the way!
We've got a boat that was designed very well.
The N20 still has a very modern rig, though not necessarily the latest and greatest.
The N20 sailors are fun people, both on and off the race course, and are certainly passionate about the class.
The boat is TOUGH! You can sail it in anything.
It kicks butt in light air.
It kicks butt in heavy air.
It is a well-balanced, easily managed, priced reasonably for entry, established class that will be around for a long, long time.

Quit focusing on the tree and look at the forest.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 02:24 AM

I agree that I've been too focused on a sail plan issue that some member of class are concerned about because of poor performance in one race against another class of boats on corrected time. Failing to mention that 2/3 of those boat were helmed by either ex-Olympians or current professionals. The 3rd had/has lots of experience in offshore conditions. This has been beat to death and I'll drop it for now.

Class Growth (another reason for new sails, to entice people to spend more money as soon as they buy a boat?):

So where is the land on which to plant a forest? I simply don't see it. This is the way I break down the current East Coast HP cat landscape:

SE: Roughly 12 N20's at Tradewinds, most of them SE/Florida boats. Rough interpolation leads to approximately 20 N20's in the southeast, including Florida. One fourth of these boats are owned by Velocity. The other fourth are owned by Team Royal. That's half the SE fleet that are owned by people that usually race the boats in distance events and many of these sailors are semi-pro. Based off similar estimates, the F18's had 14 boats at Tradewinds. There are probably 20-25 F18's in the SE. Many F16's showed up at Tradewinds, 4 showed up at Spring Fever. I bet 10 people OWN F16's in Florida and the SE. The SE and Florida have large A-Cat fleets with typical regattas having >20 boat fleets.

Mid-East: 6 N20's are registered for this weekends race. Probably 10 in the Annapolis area. I would say they have a similar F16 fleet size and growing. Hardly any F18's. Lots of A-Cats

NE: 30+ F18's within 2 hours of Newport (based on #'s from Newport sailors). Only a few N20's left at this point. ?? F16's, decent A-Cat class.

So the only area where the N20 is putting up comparable numbers to the F18 fleets are the SE and the mid-atlantic. The N20 market is offshore distance events, which are prevalent in the SE/Florida and USED TO be prevalent in the mid-atlantic. We need to cater to this market while also enticing the buoy racing crowd (which the boat does well in, and is just as competitive as the F-18 in the larger fleets).

Bottom line: more people are buying F-18's than N20's. Why? They update the hull design so you need a new(er) boat to be competitive, thus the older boats go for relatively cheap to new people in the class. No new N20's have been delivered to the SE, to my knowledge, since the 2006 Alter Cup qualifier. How are WE going to build a class if no one is buying new boats? We aren't.

The other factor is fleet size and available competitions. I bought the N20 simply because I KNOW at every event I race in in NC/SC, there are likely to be 3-4 other boats to race against. The F18's typically bring the same number of boats to these events, so there wasn't a particular reason to go that route. The N20 was also cheaper, and I can distance race it.

We need to drive this market. We need to buy new boats every 3 years so we can sell our old, yet EQUALLY COMPETITIVE boats to someone new and enthusiastic. We need to hook new sailors on the boat by taking them for a ride and showing them what a blast it is. We need a racing circuit with a points trophy to encourage participation in the class. If Todd is right and the N20 is no longer available new from the factory, none of this is going to happen.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 02:43 AM

Trey,
I don't see where any of the proposals affects your list of strong points for the boat.So now you don't want to do anything? One thing Sam did for the class was buy a boat.
Don't confuse the class with the factory. The factory really does next to nothing and always has for the 10 years I've owned my boat or the previous 8 before that, with other performance products. Standard sales stuff, warranty and parts, but that should come with the purchase, used or new as long as it's in the timeframe.
As the "class" rep tell me what they do for me, besides give a little money to a host club for ALL Nacras to race a Nationals? What else?
Sam,
The N20 is not on the pricelist, which means it won't be promoted. I'm sure if your money is green they'll make you a new one, if you ordered it.
To me #2 is pointless. Why dump the factory if you are going to turn around and do the same thing as #1?
1 and 3 seem to be the 2 choices.
Also who exactly are the semi-pro sailors? What is semi-pro?
Posted By: Jake

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 02:57 AM

I like the suggested factory sail plan change - the spinnaker mod at this point. Give it a 12 to 18 month (~maybe 24~) grace period for either kite to be class legal. Run with it and let's talk again. There's not any huge burning urgency here.

Whatever we do and whatever we talk about, let's make sure it's focused on the health of the N20 class. From my perspective, the health of the N20 class is entirely about attracting new sailors. If you guys agree with this, we need to ask ourselves with every decision; "how will this help bring new sailors to the class?" We need to make, for DAMN certain that our decisions don't alienate would-be N20 sailors. There needs to be a clear and decisive positive answer to this single question for EVERY decision made by our group.

I bought into the N20 class in 2003 with the infamous DLW to sail the Tybee 500 because it was the ultimate boat for it. It was a monster and I still look back shaking my head about how little I knew about how to sail that kind of race and sail that boat at the time. Short of running that poor guy over on the beach with all 20 feet of our leeward hull it was an incredible ride. I didn't care about sail shape or how old the design was - I just wanted to be out there doing it on a machine. From then, I've come to really like how balanced and smooth the boat sails - but it still has distinct performance nuances (mostly about being overpowered) that will keep me learning for a long time. One could easily argue, however, that without modern sails, the N20 will start to lose it's perception as the machine that it is - and for that point, I'm in favor of a gradual and planned sail update that will literally take years to complete.

How about you? Why did you start sailing a 20?


(it may be time for some commemorative shirts for DLW...instead of "still a great ride", it should read "where is she now?")



Attached picture DLW.jpg
Posted By: P.M.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 03:14 AM

Wow Sam, do you actually read what you post?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 03:23 AM

Quote
How about you? Why did you start sailing a 20?


Because it was the boat that was being used to run the Tybee 500 at the time Trey and I had to decide between the 6.0 and the N20.

I came to love how lively it was and how forgiving it was (especially after taking a trip on Jakes Nacra F18!) in front of the front crossbar.

I've come to trust my boat now more than anything else. I know she's sold, strong, and will get me through any of the **** I put it through. Its fast and makes me white-knuckle the tiller downwind still despite having driven it for years.

The first time Trey and I sailed ole Undecided on a cold December day on Lake Wheeler - We went across the lake and back and I said "this is like being strapped to the side of a runaway locomotive". That feeling still persists today. I look back and how inadequately unprepared we were going into our first distance event. Had it not been for a benign year in 2005, we would have surely not finished. Undecided kept us safe. In Daytona, Dave Leonnard came up to our boat, grabbed our shrouds and said "how the hell haven't you lost your mast!?"

I've certainly learned a metric crapton about the boat since then and I'm eternally grateful for the group of sailors that sail the boat. I don't think I met a 20 sailor that I didn't like. Todd comes close but when he whispers sweet nothings in my ear it makes all my hatred pangs disappear :P

Posted By: samc99us

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
Wow Sam, do you actually read what you post?


Yeah, I actually do. I also realize that I went on a bit of a tangent in an effort to prove the current F18 fleet is larger than the N20 on the East Coast, but not so much in the south east.
Posted By: Chris9

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 10:37 AM

You meant North East coast me thinks. There is not an F18 Fleet here in the mid-atlantic that I've seen or heard of.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 03:03 PM

Quote
How about you? Why did you start sailing a 20?


Distance racing did it for me. I was ground crew for Team SanDiego in the 03 Tybee and got a chance to know the boat a little more with working on it so much.
I had a 21SE at the time and tried to do some distance racing with it (04 GT300) but the LeMans starts are a bitch with a 700 lb boat. I ended up "pimpin' it out" enough to sell it and get a N20. First sail on it (late 05 or early 06) was my first time on a N20 and I almost fell off because it steered so quickly (used to a real heavy helm on the Hobie and balanced myself with it more than I realized).
Aside from updating the sails, I wouldn't change a thing about it.
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 03:38 PM

Ya'll are making me want to get one! (an 1-20 that is)
Posted By: wildtsail

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 03:42 PM

Wait.. another Todd?!??! This won't work...and i'm not so sure about your rights to The Todd.... how come i've never seen a post from you before and you've got 1480 posts!
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by wildtsail
Wait.. another Todd?!??! This won't work...and i'm not so sure about your rights to The Todd.... how come i've never seen a post from you before and you've got 1480 posts!


Tawd, Punk, and The Todd. I see no issues.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2

Tawd, Punk, and The Todd. I see no issues.

+1
Posted By: John Williams

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 04:24 PM

In the Spring of 2000 at Lake Hartwell, I got my first look at the Nacra 20 - Chris Brown raced it against the 6.0s in the open class. Before the event was even over, my skipper Mark Smith had already decided to get one. When we got back to Pensacola, he and Kirk got the ball rolling - the 20 had been selected as the one-design boat for the Worrell 1000 and the buzz was significant. For the 2001 Spring Fever, we had seven 20s racing in an F20-type start with three or four Hobie Foxes. I raced on Mark's boat (#314) for a couple of years until it became obvious that, unlike the Nacra 6.0, the 20 could not be raced at the minimum weight of 325... spinnaker racing and the higher aspect mainsail demanded more weight.

I got occasional invitations to race on 20s even as late as 2007, but as my interest in buoy racing solidified, the 20 became less and less of a viable option for me. The class was, at that time, focused on distance races and Performance Race Week. I've been accused of "abandoning" the 20 Class... truth be told, I'm just not as interested in distance racing as I am buoys. I started in the Class with buoy racing - when the class' focused changed, I had to find other options.

The 20 is still the best choice for racing in the Atlantic Ocean - among all the boats available, it is uniquely suited to face the variety of conditions one might encounter. When Mike proposed the boat as the one-design platform for the Worrell 1000, most of the fleet (including me - I was a team manager) felt the boat would never hold up to the beating the 6.0 had withstood. Boy were we wrong. People on the beach know that I lost a number of bets last year - I wagered on the 20 to be the first boat every leg. For 2010, I wish the fleet smooth sailing, no night legs and rhumb lines that pay off.
Posted By: wildtsail

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 04:59 PM

You two are killing my reputation! Honestly I did nothing to deserve this nickname.. anyways not the thread for this discussion, it's only a matter of time til a 20 sailor yells at me.
I loved the 20 and feel the same way as JW... I was forced to find something else to cater to my interested in buoys racing and our fleet in the NE was mostly developed for this reason.
I was given the 20 I sailed to use in a regatta while I still owned the 6.0. After 2 years of trying to compete with the N20's on the 6.0, spending 1 day on the N20 made me never want to go back, and I didn't.. I sold the 6.0 and borrowed the 20 whenever I could. Everything about the boat was such an improvement from anything else I had ever sailed, from the high performance rig to the high aspect ratio blades.
I love the Infusion but if I had a choice I think I would have stayed with the 20... it was a sad day which I sold that boat. If I could have both I would be sailing Tybee on the 20.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 05:18 PM

My first experience with the inter 20 came on a desolate beach. A huge rock was sitting in the middle of the beach with a daggerboard sticking out of it. A couple of folks were trying to pull the daggerboard out, to no avail. I took my turn and the daggerboard easily slid out of the rock and a blinding light surrounded it. Almost instantly a beautiful boat formed around the board and I thought " Cool, free boat" then realized that something very special had happened and that this must be the boat for me.
Actually, my first time on the 20 was prepping Bart Hall's for our 2000 Worrell 1000 effort. As JW said, I thought there was No way this boat could live up to the 6.0, was I wrong. I bought one for myself a week after the race finish and have never regretted it.
It is an absolute Cadillac of a ride and a bulletproof, dependable boat.
Todd Hart
The original, one and only "The Todd"

p.s. I know Keith will have a great story to tell, just like the night before Christmas.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update - 04/21/10 08:44 PM

I got mine because at the time it was perceived to be the fastest production boat out there.

What "sold" me after purchase was the clean layout, the blinding speed even for a newbie, and the ease of operation (flipped it twice the first day)

Bought Scott's (Perf Sail) Worrell N20 (with new hull after being punched on a surf launch) and never looked back.

Memories I'll always cherish:

- Learning to fly hull downwind in 6 kts with Kirk coaching from his N20 in pensacola

- Overstanding C at our first tradewinds (2002?)and screetching down the course single trapped, driving over pretty much everything out there (except Kenny/Steve)

- Pretty much every Hirams Haul I did (all of which were done on an N20, thanks to Karl and Mark H)

- flying across sandbars at Steeple and MKL wondering if I would die steering the dang thing with the rudders unlocked and spin up

- and last but certainly not least, the LAST GUY to hit the Jewfish Creek bascule bridge with an N20 mast. This was second only to the fine photos of Kirk/Jdub got when they got stuck under the card sound bridge at Steeplechase
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