Catsailor.com

What do you do when your bow stuffs?

Posted By: wildtsail

What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 01:40 AM

When sailing downwind with your spinnaker and your bow stuffs hard, like up to crossbeam, presuming your crew is locked in on the wire... what should be done with the spinnaker... should it be blown to reduce momentum? OR held tight to hopefully lift the bows? OR is it too late to do anything and just cross your fingers?
We've tried the first two and found about the same success rate but i'm leaning towards the idea of staying trimmed in... any other methods? How about trimming the spinnaker in to reduce flow but still keep generating lift?
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 01:49 AM

I generally drop my traveller a foot or two and then quickly pull it back in as soon as the bows start to rise.
Posted By: HMurphey

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 01:55 AM

... sound the diving klaxon(horn).....

Aoooga, Aoooga, Aoooga .... dive, dive, dive

Just don't "blow" the main if you wish to keep your stick ....

I don't believe that there is one correct solution as it depends on many factors .....
Posted By: PTP

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by NCSUtrey
I generally drop my traveller a foot or two and then quickly pull it back in as soon as the bows start to rise.

yeah, what he said
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:07 AM

Trim in to stall and drop the traveler. Swim is the other option.
Posted By: PTP

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:09 AM

I understand the premise of trimming in to stall but I am more a believer in blowing the thing.
the apparent wind changes a lot when you slow down that much. It changes how much? probably at least 90 degrees? likely more
Posted By: Jake

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by wildtsail
When sailing downwind with your spinnaker and your bow stuffs hard, like up to crossbeam, presuming your crew is locked in on the wire... what should be done with the spinnaker... should it be blown to reduce momentum? OR held tight to hopefully lift the bows? OR is it too late to do anything and just cross your fingers?
We've tried the first two and found about the same success rate but i'm leaning towards the idea of staying trimmed in... any other methods? How about trimming the spinnaker in to reduce flow but still keep generating lift?


Skipper to crew: "why did you quit trimming?"
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:17 AM

pump the spin. let an arm length out then take 2 arms in
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:35 AM

I know not of this "stuffing the bows" that you speak of.

*eats another cheeseburger*
Posted By: Don_Atchley

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:39 AM

I'll gladly pay you Tuesday...
Posted By: Timbo

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:45 AM

I usually go straight to the Swim option, like the Marines say when they enter a bar on Shore Leave, "Go Ugly Early, avoid the rush..."

I look for a soft spot to land so I don't break anything and then I can get busy snuffing the spin to right the boat...I'm getting pretty quick at it really.
Posted By: Baltic

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 08:59 AM

I am afraid to risk the mast (Capricorn), so I neither touch main-sheet or -traveller. The crew eases the spi by one or two armlengths, but if you're already stuffed till the frontbeam, it's usually too late anyway ...
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 09:15 AM

Sailing the F16 with T foils; it's only happened once and I just sailed thru the wave.

If I have to do something (Had an Inter 17 before the F16) I would sheet the Kite IN to stall it further and then ease as soon as the bows came up.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 11:51 AM

Ask Seth:

http://picasaweb.google.com/115536799553525989336/GYCMultihullRegattaDay3#5460114203764123234

Who's on that boat in the background applauding...?
Posted By: pgp

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 12:08 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y1bzMljkwM

It looks like dropping the traveler would work. Finding the time might be a problem.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 01:04 PM

according to Pete's video... send the crew out to the forestay to manually push the spin back in the tube...
Posted By: wildtsail

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 01:52 PM

Keeping it sheeted or pump seem to be the way to go.
The traveler idea opens up another can of worms... i've heard two schools of thought..
1)Dropping the traveler drives the bow down
2)Dropping the traveler lifts the bows
Which is it?
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:03 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't dropping the traveler only make the situation worse????? When the bows stuff, the boat stops and the aparent wind moves WAAAAY aft. Dropping the traveler will now expose more sail area to the new apparent wind making a bad situation worse. I've always dealt with it by keeping weight back (as soon as bodies start going forward, it's all over), driving down (assuming rudders are still in the water), and praying!
Posted By: pgp

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:07 PM

look at the very last few seconds of the video. Isn't it the main that actually takes the boat over?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:13 PM

In the end, it's always the main that takes it over, the spin is flogging by then. I doubt if anyone's got time to play with the traveler, when it happens, it happens fast!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by wildtsail
When sailing downwind with your spinnaker and your bow stuffs hard, like up to crossbeam, presuming your crew is locked in on the wire... what should be done with the spinnaker... should it be blown to reduce momentum? OR held tight to hopefully lift the bows? OR is it too late to do anything and just cross your fingers?
We've tried the first two and found about the same success rate but i'm leaning towards the idea of staying trimmed in... any other methods? How about trimming the spinnaker in to reduce flow but still keep generating lift?


Drive better.
Posted By: wildtsail

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:39 PM

Well we rolled your butt at Steeplechase while stuffing very frequently.
I have to agree with Karl that easing the traveler would make it worse.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by wildtsail

I have to agree with Karl that easing the traveler would make it worse.

On an N20, you'd be wrong.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:49 PM

Ding will you please go back to spanking the punk's butt so we don't have to listen to him. Quit cutting the Jr. team slack.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by wildtsail
Well we rolled your butt at Steeplechase while stuffing very frequently.


Oh the shame of it all getting rolled by the Todd's on the same day how will I get on with my life. Refresh my memory, where did you guys end up that weekend? And don't be a little bitch and whine about the redress.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 02:58 PM

I told you all ready, I don't pick on you anymore and I'm truly offended that you lump me into the same category as "The Punk". It's not my fault his mom named him after me, then he fell horribly short of that benchmark. I think I deserve an apology from you and his parents.
Posted By: PTP

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:09 PM

that boat was going over no matter what. when someone is in front of the forestay the game is over and if you are the one still at the back of the boat pick your exit strategy.
Unless clipped into a chicken line I would think it would be pretty impossible to trim in the spin when you stuff it because all your effort is in not flying forward when the boat slows down so much and by trimming the spin in you will be pulling yourself further forward.
Timbo- on a blade when you stuff you are toast- especially if you are solo and can't drop the trav- very unlikely to come back from that. The N20 is more forgiving and when you stuff you can save it especially if you've got a fat bastard at the back of the boat.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:11 PM

Quote
you can save it especially if you've got a fat bastard at the back of the boat.


Really dude. I read these forums you know.

You can refer to me by name at least laugh
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:12 PM

We've stiffed the F18, so hard that I flew around the forestay, landed on the leeward hull, unclipped from the trap, scooted across the tramp, re-clipped in, sheeted in, and kept going...
Posted By: PTP

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
We've stiffed the F18, so hard that I flew around the forestay, landed on the leeward hull, unclipped from the trap, scooted across the tramp, re-clipped in, sheeted in, and kept going...

now, that is impressive... however, one would think, even still, that that was much more luck than skill smile
Posted By: PTP

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
you can save it especially if you've got a fat bastard at the back of the boat.


Really dude. I read these forums you know.

You can refer to me by name at least laugh



well, now, what if I have my very OWN fat bastard!
Posted By: pgp

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:15 PM

He prolly borrowed Jake's cape. smirk
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by PTP
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
We've stiffed the F18, so hard that I flew around the forestay, landed on the leeward hull, unclipped from the trap, scooted across the tramp, re-clipped in, sheeted in, and kept going...

now, that is impressive... however, one would think, even still, that that was much more luck than skill smile


I donno man

Have you seen Mike's moustasche?

Thats skill embodiment right there.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
We've stiffed the F18, so hard that I flew around the forestay, landed on the leeward hull, unclipped from the trap, scooted across the tramp, re-clipped in, sheeted in, and kept going...

Chris Ford did that on my P-19, acted as if it was S.O.P. and kept on trimming. He's the man.Your alright too, Mike.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by PTP
Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
you can save it especially if you've got a fat bastard at the back of the boat.


Really dude. I read these forums you know.

You can refer to me by name at least laugh



well, now, what if I have my very OWN fat bastard!

And your's ACTUALLY Sails.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I told you all ready, I don't pick on you anymore and I'm truly offended that you lump me into the same category as "The Punk". It's not my fault his mom named him after me, then he fell horribly short of that benchmark. I think I deserve an apology from you and his parents.


You know Todd when you're right you're right, I was out of line you are in a class all by yourself.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:24 PM

Thanks Ding, your a class act.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:26 PM

I've gotta get a job. I just looked at my post count.
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I've gotta get a job. I just looked at my post count.

and we're still waiting for something insightfull. grin
Posted By: brucat

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 03:55 PM

Todd, I don't know how many times to tell you this, come back to the H16. Then you only have two options and your life will be much easier:

If your crew weight is under 400 lbs, you'll never stuff it to the crossbar, you'll be swimming before it ever goes that far.

If your crew weight is over 400 lbs, let everything out and hang on to the rear corner, you'll probably save it.

Mike
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
you can save it especially if you've got a fat bastard at the back of the boat.


Really dude. I read these forums you know.

You can refer to me by name at least laugh


hahah!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
We've stiffed the F18, so hard that I flew around the forestay, landed on the leeward hull, unclipped from the trap, scooted across the tramp, re-clipped in, sheeted in, and kept going...


with a spin out???????

I have flown around a few forestays and not capsized in my day.. but never with spin
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I've gotta get a job. I just looked at my post count.

and we're still waiting for something insightfull. grin


I'm glad Beth is teaching you new words, now you just need to get Matt Bounds to help you with your spelling.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 05:44 PM

You have to go way out there to clear the spin....
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 05:59 PM

Back to the question;
Originally Posted by wildtsail
When sailing downwind with your spinnaker and your bow stuffs hard, like up to crossbeam, presuming your crew is locked in on the wire... what should be done with the spinnaker... should it be blown to reduce momentum? OR held tight to hopefully lift the bows? OR is it too late to do anything and just cross your fingers?
We've tried the first two and found about the same success rate but i'm leaning towards the idea of staying trimmed in... any other methods? How about trimming the spinnaker in to reduce flow but still keep generating lift?


My 1st answer would be to get an Infusion! but you've already done that. if there's one boat where this is not an issue - it's the infusion. Something must be wrong..

Are you using a knackered spinny? you were trying to get an old one for training, is this the one? If it is a blown sail, the air can't travel out the leech.

If the spinny sheeting angle is too far AFT, the sail will twist which will induce pitch. The leech needs to be tight so that one armful of sheet released will open the WHOLE leech

make sure that you have the main sheeted tight - any twist is a killer offwind. traveling out is ok as long as sheet is tight.

Don't try and sail on one hull in a big blow, bear off a bit and get the windward hull bouyancy into play.

Spend a month on the old nacra F18 - you will learn loads about survival downwind!
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 06:11 PM

I yell at the crew and then start righting the boat.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/16/10 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG


Spend a month on the old nacra F18 - you will learn loads about survival downwind!


+1
Posted By: Jake

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/18/10 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
He prolly borrowed Jake's cape. smirk


I only loan that to my brother, who, while reaching with me at Spring Fever (2002?) on my 5.2 saw me pitchpole and went flying from the wire. He almost lands on the trampoline of a Hobie 18 in front of us but lands in the water...I managed to stay at the back of the boat...the sterns start their way back down (we're going to save it!) but my brother, who's bobbing briefly in the water, is still hooked into the trap line. As the mast comes back up, his trap yanks him clear back up out of the water, he scrapes his leg up on the forestay bridle, lands on the leeward side, unclips, ducks under the main, and we continue on.

but seriously - in response to this trimming / stuffing thing, I think different scenarios have different recovery methods but it all happens so fast, it's not realistic to get it right all the time. Clearly, sometimes, it's just not recoverable. However, I don't believe in easing anything at the time of the stuff. The boat is decelerating FAST (which is why it's trying to roll heads over heals). If you ease things (traveler, spin sheet...whatever), you're just trimming them to the quickly changing apparent wind. I like to hold the trim steady (sailplan is now over sheeted and stalled) until my rudders are back in the water and then ease quickly to get the boat accelerating again. You could ease and dump the instant the bow takes a dive but somewhere between where the sails are and where they are "dumped" is proper trim with more power....which is what you don't need at that instant.
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/18/10 02:43 PM

Where was the 'chicken line' ? If the crew would have stayed back and trapped, would they have capsized as the boat rapidly decellerated?
Posted By: JeffS

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/18/10 11:56 PM

I'm a bit slow, I pitchpoled twice visiting lakes trying to power through and back up like we do on the sea before someone on the forum pointed out that there was no wave to power through. Last time I had to wash mud of both bows, spin pole and mast. I'm clever now I bought Liz a PFD with extra padding so I dont hurt my knees when following her in.
Posted By: Aido

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/19/10 04:44 AM

Remain calm and make your way to the nearest exit.
Posted By: Smiths_Cat

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/19/10 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by wildtsail
When sailing downwind with your spinnaker and your bow stuffs hard, like up to crossbeam, presuming your crew is locked in on the wire... what should be done with the spinnaker... should it be blown to reduce momentum? OR held tight to hopefully lift the bows? OR is it too late to do anything and just cross your fingers?
We've tried the first two and found about the same success rate but i'm leaning towards the idea of staying trimmed in... any other methods? How about trimming the spinnaker in to reduce flow but still keep generating lift?


Turn the boat towards the wind. If you try to bear away the rudder of the heeled boat will push your bows down. If you got a problem with heeling moment give sheet to the spi, but normally you lost so much speed, that there isnÄt too much pressure anymore. Of course you have to react in time, at least one rudder should be in the water. If you see the gust coming before the nose dives, bear away, if waves causing the nose diving change your course a bit. With this strategy I never pitchpoled with the spi, but I sailed forgiving boats (at least I think thez are forgiving)

Cheers,

Klaus
Posted By: pepin

Re: What do you do when your bow stuffs? - 04/19/10 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
We've stiffed the F18, so hard that I flew around the forestay, landed on the leeward hull, unclipped from the trap, scooted across the tramp, re-clipped in, sheeted in, and kept going...
Rofl, I've done the same sailing the 5.2 solo. Going around the top mark, from upwind to downwind mode on the same tack I stuffed both bows in a gust, flew around the forestay, took a swim under the bridles and landed (hard) on the front beam. I unclipped, rolled under the boom, reclipped on the crew trap handle and continued on... To this day I still wonder how I recovered from that one.
© 2024 Catsailor.com Forums